Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

An interesting topic, Richard.

Well, my short, quick answer is that you *shouldn't* believe what I believe.

In scientific circles, one presents an hypothesis, an idea, and comes up with 
an experiment to demonstrate that the hypothesis explains some question one 
has.  Effectively, then, one is invited to "try it out for yourself".  Other
experiments are devised and the hypothesis stands or falls on its merit. 

A good hypothesis also has implications about phenomena or ideas that perhaps 
hadn't even been considered at the time.  If those prove fruitful and 
consistent with the hypothesis, again by inviting people to "try it out for 
themselves", then a theory may result.  A theory is far stronger than a 
hypothesis, and a framework of understand develops.

A very important point for any hypothesis or theory is that it must be 
falsifiable.  That doesn't mean that it IS false, rather that IF it is false, 
that falsity can be proved.

An illustration I once read of this concerns a dialogue between a scientist 
and a character "Faustus", who is explaining friction.  It goes something like 
this...

F:	Friction is caused by demons pushing against objects.
S:	I don't see any demons.
F:	They're very small, also invisible.
S:	Where do they come from?
F:	They live in the surfaces of things.
S:	If I press down when I slide the object, the friction is increased.
F:	The pressue forces more demons out of the surface.
S:	Once the object is sliding, the friction is reduced.
F:	The demons are crushed and can no longer resist you.
S:	If I oil a surface, the friction is reduced.
F:	Oil drowns the demons....

For every observation the scientist makes, an ad hoc argument is presented, 
but no coherent framework of knowledge is built up.  Yet Faustus' argument
cannot be falsified, Faustus will simply present another ad hoc statemnt to 
answer the objection.

In matters spiritual of course, things are much less concrete, people have 
attempted to "prove" to one another the existence of a lovig God to no avail. 
It is a matter more of faith, and hard facts seem like gossamer.
But all is not lost.

There was a time that I was desperate for healing.  I had an seemingly
unsatisfiable hole in my soul, and I found several people who seemed to
understand my need, and who apparently had their similar needs met. 

They *shared* what they had found with me.  They *invited* me to try it out 
for myself.  They invited me to explore, to see what implications my 
understanding might have.  I share my explorations, as they share theirs, and 
we learn and grow.

How to end this note?  I've made several attempts, and I find it difficult to 
tie my thoughts to words...

In the Old Testament, we can read several hundred laws, theories if you will.
Standing out from them are the Ten.
When questioned, Jesus condensed them down to two Great Laws.
Finally, Jesus told his disciples, "love as I have loved you."
For me, that's the Grand Unified Theory of the Bible.

I have been loved.  Freely and without condition.
Once I understand/feel/know that, and the implication it brings, 
I am able to love in return.  My God, others, myself.

That has changed my life.  Can I prove it to you, can I say that "you" should 
believe it to?  No, but I can invite you examine it, try it for yourself, and 
see what happens.  And I'd be really interested to hear your results!

Peace,

Jim

    I don't think anyone ought to believe something just because someone
    else believes it. I don't believe anything I don't experience. I didn't
    believe in God before I experienced God. I only believed in
    an idea of God.
    
    I think we can all learn from each other though.
    
    Eileen
    

    Well, I propose that everyone *should* believe as I do so there'd be 
    no reason for war, debate, oppression, or valuing differences programs. 
    
    ;-)
    
    Kb  

	It sure would be convenient and far less stressful for me if everyone
did share the same beliefs I do.

	On the other hand, I find it to be beneficial to have my beliefs
challenged every so often.  It keeps me spiritually fit and growing, thus
prohibiting me from becoming lazy or apathetic about what I believe.

	I am often amazed at the entries of Bob Fleischer, who frequently
articulates a posture so very near my own, one might suspect we know each
other and have known each other for some duration.  We don't and we haven't.
And so, I have difficulty explaining such an uncanny theological resemblance
Bob and I share at times.  (Must be the workings of the Holy Spirit! :-})

	And to Karen Berggren, my beloved friend and spiritual sister:
I, too, believe the world would be a better place if there were more who
genuinely believed as you do and who had the courage to act upon those
beliefs as you do.

Peace,
Richard

Well, I don't believe that anyone should believe what I believe -).

Rather, they should believe in the one that sent His Son. As brought out by
Jesus in John 5:24 NWT "Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and
believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into
judgment but has passed over from death to life."

This one is identified in John 3:16 and Psalms 83:18 KJV.

This one has made a promise to bring an end to wars and oppression. In fact
Revelation 21:4,5 NWT reads "'And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away.' And the One seated on the throne said:
'Look! I am making all things new.' Also he says: 'Write, because these words
are faithful and true."


Phil.

P.S. One meaning of believe is "to credit", I think this does help one to 
identify if they believe in God. 

Note 248.5

Phil,

Your input is, of course, always welcome here.  But, you've got me curious.
How can you start off by saying:

>Well, I don't believe that anyone should believe what I believe -).

And then proceed to tell us what you believe?

Peace,
Richard

re .5

Hi Richard,

I did think about this when formulating the reply, but declined to make a 
comment. You see what I wrote is not necessarily what I personally believe.
But it was what Jesus believed which was shown not just by his words but also 
by his actions. He showed that he believed in God because he always gave
Him the credit, compare John 5:19.
For example:-
God promises in Psalms 46:9 NWT "He is making wars to cease to the extremity 
of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces the 
wagons he burns in the fire.". But do we personally believe this or do we 
believe man himself can bring this about?. In other words who do we look to
bring this about.

Just to clarify, I can give no reasons why you should believe what I believe 
for you cannot see all my actions, ie lifestyle etc...to see in reality what
my belief is. But we can put belief in what Jesus believed by examing God's 
Word. I can now forsee a follow on question "Why believe in God's Word?" -) .


Phil.

Note 248.7

>But it was what Jesus believed which was shown not just by his words but also 
>by his actions.

I think I'm beginning to understand.  You would prefer that folks not believe
what you believe, but what Jesus believed, or perhaps more accurately, what
you believe Jesus believed.

I believe that I *do* believe what Jesus believed.  At the same time, I believe
I am open to greater understandings; that is, that my beliefs have not
crystallized into something brittle.

I believe that others believe that what they believe is what Jesus believed.
Herein lies the anomaly.  My beliefs are not always congruent with others.
And, I am coming around to believe, perhaps it is a heresy against truth to
attempt to squelch the incongruencies.  Perhaps the insistence on congruency
is the greatest heresy.

Peace,
Richard

re 248.8

Hi Richard,

>But it was what Jesus believed which was shown not just by his words but also
>by his actions.

;I think I'm beginning to understand.  You would prefer that folks not believe
;what you believe, but what Jesus believed, or perhaps more accurately, what
;you believe Jesus believed.

Now I'm getting confused -). In repy .5 I quoted John 5:24, now this could
be my belief but as it is a quotation of Jesus' words I can say for sure that
it is Jesus' belief, especially seeing that his actions backed this up. Now
from this verse Jesus said  "believes him that sent him me has everlasting
life".  This is his quotation not mine, by me quoting it am I saying it
is my belief?.

The point I was hoping to eventually get across is that there have been many
who have believed in man, such as communism, what has been the end result?.
John 5:24 shows that those who believe in God have the opportunity of gaining
everlasting life. Through the Bible God has made many promises do we believe
He will bring them about, or as I said in my last reply do we believe man
himself will bring this about.


;I believe that I *do* believe what Jesus believed.  At the same time, I believe
;I am open to greater understandings; that is, that my beliefs have not
;crystallized into something brittle.

It is good that you believe what Jesus believed. Do you mean by saying "I
believe I am open to greater understandings," that you look to other sources
other than the Bible?. If this is so are you sure of it's source and how do
know this?. God's Word is spoken of as "being alive" it will never crystalize 
into something brittle (Hewbrews 4:12, John 17:17).


;I believe that others believe that what they believe is what Jesus believed.
;Herein lies the anomaly.  My beliefs are not always congruent with others.
;And, I am coming around to believe, perhaps it is a heresy against truth to
;attempt to squelch the incongruencies.  Perhaps the insistence on congruency
;is the greatest heresy.

My beliefs are also not always congruent with others, but is this important.
Is it not more important that my belief be congruent with God's will and
purposes?. I do not insist others are congruent with me but does not mean I
cannot offer advise on how to come to know God by showing what God's Word
has to say, I am also willing to listen what the other says. When quoting
Scripture whos belief am I showing? can I take the credit?.

Phil.

    
    'Cause I'm right.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

>Note 248.10

>    'Cause I'm right.  (;^)
    
Kuhzin Cindy,

	I wondered when someone would have the audacity to admit this.

	Certainly there is an element of satisfaction in knowing the rightness
of one's beliefs.  This knowledge can be very sustaining when called upon to
take a stand, which may be threatening in some way to the believer.

	I, too, believe you are right in your beliefs, Cindy.  But, in all
honesty, this is largely because I know your beliefs to be fairly analogous
to my own.  [Such agreement would seem to be a definite plus among life
partners, too, I might add.]

	As you and I are well aware, there is a rather large contingent who
reject (sometimes vehemently) what you and I believe in favor of beliefs which
are sometimes diametrically opposed to ours.

	My experience with asserting, "'Cause I'm right," to others is that
I'm the only one who seems to feel good about it. ;-}

Peace,
Richard

    
    Hi Cuzin Richard,
    
    I really did it as a humorous reply...couldn't resist such a setup as
    a note topic like this!  (;^)
    
    Do I really think I'm right?  No.  Am I wrong?  No.  All people,
    depending upon their life experiences, are coming from their own
    personal perspectives.  And also, we are *all* growing and changing all
    the time...some faster than others...so it's even more difficult to
    assign an absolute "I'm right and you're wrong" label to anyone.
    
    Living in the moment and accepting people for who they are at any
    particular point in time is by far the most important task in my life.   
    
    Ultimately I don't seek to convert anybody to anything.  My chosen role
    (though I definitely deviate from this from time to time) is to provide
    factual information based on my own experiences.  It is up to the other 
    people to decide for themselves whether it is right in their view, or 
    wrong in their view.  From my very human perspective, it's the best I
    can do.
    
    I like to be challenged.  There is a story about a guru who held
    audiences for his disciples, and in the audiences there was also
    someone who was his worst critic, who challenged his every word.  The
    disciples used to get angry, however the guru said nothing and let the
    critic remain.  One day the critic died, and his disciples came to tell
    him of the _good_ news.  The guru immediately began to cry, saying he'd
    lost his best friend and that he'd learned more about himself from the
    critic than anyone else, because only in an adverse environment do we
    have the greatest opportunity to view life from another person's
    perspective and develop our empathic capabilities to include greater
    understanding...and greater Love.
    
    However, it is also necessary for our own peace of mind to not be so
    attached to our own opinions so much that we let other people 'get our
    goat', for our 'goat' is really our inner peace (statement compliments
    of Yogananda). 
    
    Cindy

Hi Cindy,

I liked your reply of being right, and got a good chuckle, too. .-)

This does bring up what I think is an interesting point, however...

I have known people who believe that being "right" defines everything else as 
"wrong".  (You're not one of them, Cindy!)  A very important thing a pastor 
once said to me was:

	"Just because *I'm* right doesn't mean *you're* wrong."

I believe life isn't simply black and white, nor even shades of grey, there's 
a whole rainbow out there, with colors I haven't even seen yet.

Peace,

Jim

    Good thoughts Jim, especially the rainbow analogy.  (BTW, hope you had
    a nice vacation!)
    
    I like the following affirmation from Louise Hay's book Heart Thoughts and
    believe it fits in with this topic:
    
    		EACH PERSON IS PART OF THE HARMONIOUS WHOLE
    
    "We are each a divine idea expressing through the One Mind in
    harmonious ways.  We have come together because there is something we
    need to learn from each other.  We have a purpose in being together.
    There is no need to fight this purpose or to blame one another for what
    is happening.  It is safe for us to work on living ourselves so that we
    may benefit and grow from this experience.  We choose to work togther
    to bring harmony into the business at hand and into every area of our
    own lives.  Everthing we do is based on the  one truth -- the truth of
    our beings and the truthh of Life.  Divine right action is guiding us
    ever moment of the day.  We say the right word at the right time and
    follow the right course of action at all times.  Each person is part of
    the harmonious whole.  There is a Divine blending of energies as people
    work joyfully together, supporting and encouraging each other in ways
    that are fulfilling and productive.  We are successful in every area of
    our work and our lives.  We are healthy, happy, loving, joyful,
    respectful, supportive, productive, and at peace with ourselves and
    with each other.  This treatment is lovingly released into the One Mind
    which does the work and makes it manifest in our lives.  So be it, and
    so it is.  It is done!"
    
    
    Ro
    
    

Wow!  That sounds exactly like a Science of Mind treatment (or
prayer)!  

That's great, Ro!

Nanci

    It is really a lovely special little book - I'll show it to you when
    you visit in a couple of weeks.
    
    Looking forward to seeing you soon,
    
    Ro (your long lost sister)  ;')
    

Oh boy!  I can't wait!  

Nanci (we were never really lost we just didn't recognize each other at first!)

:-)

I finally found this note from another conference, I think it may be 
appropriate here.  (Extracted with the author's permission .-)

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Note ####.##               the battle of the "truths"                   ## of ##
TFH::KIRK "a simple song"                            61 lines  17-AUG-1989 07:33
                    -< sharing means giving AND receiving >-
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				:
				:

I'm reminded of the line sung by Pontius Pilate in _Jesus Christ, Superstar_: 
"We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?" 

Since I don't know the Ultimate Truth in all of its infinite dimensions 
(yet .-), I have to admit that that there are other viewpoints that I might 
encounter, and I have choices in how I encounter them.

I saw a documentary series once comparing Biblical history with archeological 
evidence, and several discrepancies were noted.  Instead of saying "Aha!  See, 
the Bible is wrong!" the host asked the question "In what way is the Bible 
Right?"  He observed that much of the history in the Bible was obviously 
written by eye witnesses and contemporaries of the time, so instead of 
dismissing them out of hand, it is much more revealing and informative to 
understand their viewpoint, and the truth they have to share.

There are many ways of viewing and relating to incidents.  A poet may 
describe the beauty of a snowdrift in lovely verse, describing the peaceful 
splendor of stopping by a woods on a snowy evening.  A physicist might
describe the beauty of the crystalline symmetry, and be in awe of how the
forces of nature conspire to create each flake differently.  A meteorologist 
might marvel at, and share a caution about the power of a blizzard.  Which 
viewpoint is True?  Each, in its own way.

(Although if I am busy shovelling 2 feet of snow out of my driveway, I might 
have little time to consider the beauty of each individual flake, or the 
silence of a winter forest----and yet, if I *can't* be aware of those other 
aspects at the time, I think I've lost something.  As I become more fully 
aware, more fully Human, I think the ability to hold onto these multiple 
aspects of things, places, people, myself, my Higher Power, grows.  Maybe 
that's related to those "infinite dimensions of Truth".)
    
				:
				:
				:
				:

Peace,

Jim

    Well stated, Jim.
    
    -- Mike

    Jim .18,
    
    Yes!  And expressed beautifully.
    
    thanks,
    Kb

        <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
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Note 820.125           The Bible: Totally Inerrant or Not?            125 of 125
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Pacifist Hellcat"                 17 lines   4-MAR-1994 18:36
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    .124 JACKSON
    
    Are you saying you and Nancy can answer for each other?
    
    I was really quite serious, Collis.
    
    If you want someone to believe what you believe, I would hope you
    would have a good reason for wanting that.
    
    Nancy hasn't offerred anything enticing, desirable, or even intriguing
    for me (or anyone) to *want* to believe what she believes.  Frankly,
    neither have you.  And I am probably just as guilty of this as anyone.
    I don't know.
    
    Pax,
    Richard
    

    Richard.... 
    
    Do you note from home?
    
    I think you must, you sure do spend a lot of time duplicating, moving
    around notes in order to avoid continuity of discussions.
    
    

Note 248.23

>    Do you note from home?

Yes.
    
>    I think you must, you sure do spend a lot of time duplicating, moving
>    around notes in order to avoid continuity of discussions.
    
Ahhh...negative criticism.

I duplicated note 248.22 because it is really more approprate to the topic
than it was where it was originally posted.  I'm sorry you've chosen to
interpret my action as avoidance of continuity of discussions.

Richard

re: Note 248.0 by Richard "Centerpeace" 

>                  -< Why should I believe what you believe? >-

Because I have the gun.



.-)  .-)  .-)

Jim