Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Note 201.2

>    There are
>    many that 'claim' to be in Christ merely because they mention His name,
>    but they have never really submitted their lives to His full control.

Ed,

I quite agree.

Peace,
Richard

    
    	Richard,
    
    	Which aspect of submission do you want to discuss?
    
    	Submission:
    
    	To Husbands
    	To Each other
    	To a set of laws or commands
    	To a particular teaching
    	To Christ
    	To ???
    
    	

Re: .2

I had in mind submission to the will of God, the teachings of Christ
and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

However, I do not wish to constrain the topic.  Choose which ever one
you would like to explore.

Richard

    
     I find 1 Cor 11:3 sums it up nicely. "But I want YOU to know that the
    head of every man is Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in
    turn the head of the Christ is God."
    
     Picture form?   God
                      |
                    Christ
                      | ============= Col 1:18 slides congregation in
                     man              here. Just a little more detail;
                      |               not a contradiction. 
                    woman              
    
     

    I'm sorry but I find .4 to be very offensive and true only of
    a very narrow interpretation of the scriptures.
    
    Bonnie

    I posted this quote from Lucretia Mott elsewhere in this notes
    conference, but I like it very much and I think it bears repeating.  I
    believe that it summarizes well the Quaker view on the equality of men
    and women:
    
    "In the true marriage relationship the independence of husband and wife
    is equal, their dependence mutual, and their obligations reciprocal."
    
    	- Lucretia Mott (1793-1880)
    

    Great personal_name Mike!  Really evokes some rich imagery. :-)
    I also agree with Lucretia's thoughts which you scribed.
    
    For me, I submit myself directly to God and the Indwelling Light within, 
    which I also refer to as the Holy Spirit or Christ Consciousness.  It
    involves a conscious choice to do so, particularly when some outside
    person or circumstance produces fear, anger, frustration, etc. in me. 
    
    Rather than focus my energy in the emotion which leaves me with the
    feeling of being separated from God, alone, powerless, and unloving, I
    take time for quiet contemplation and prayer to seek to turn my thoughts 
    to God and the Light within me for inspiration, healing and guidance.
    
    This to me is submission to God.  It is a conscious and willful choice
    to ask for guidance and inspiration regarding what concerns me and also
    how I might do the work of God and Spirit in my life and the world.  
    
    Karen  

Bonnie,

I agree with you that .4 does not show the whole picture.  However,
how do you interpret I Cor 11:3 (since you seem to disagree with
the diagram that was drawn from it)?

Collis

    Collis,
    
    I understood that many of the admonitions towards women's behavior
    in the time of the apostles were because for the first time women
    were equal with men in the worship services (there were women
    priests and bishops for example in the early church). So women
    were advised to turn to their husbands for guidance and to not
    ask questions in church, because their questions were interupting
    the services.
    
    Bonnie

Bonnie,

Thanks for responding.

Just a comment.  I don't think the diagram in .4 to be such a distortion
of I Cor 11:3 that it should be considered "very offensive".  Even if
it is incorrect in some ways, it does reflect a rather straightforward
(perhaps simplistic) interpretation of the verse.

Your interpretation of this verse (within the immediate context) is
not nearly as obvious, for example, as .4.

Collis

    I've been reading a bit of Jung, lately.  This pair of diagrams makes
    some sense in the context of I Cor 11:3 and also of my limited
    understanding of Jung:
    
                           God              God
                            |                |
                          Christ            Mary
                            |                |
                          Animus           Anima
                            |                |
                          Woman             Man
    
    That is, for a woman, it is the function of the Animus to lead her into
    right relationship with her own unconscious; for a man, it is the
    Anima.
    
    DR

    Judith Plaskow, in her book "Standing Again at Sinai", discusses
    several non-hierarchical views of God that I find much more appealing
    for my own spirituality.  In the non-hierarchical views of God (which
    typically characterizes feminist theology), God is seen as a Friend,
    Lover, and Co-creator along with us.  Rather than viewing God over us,
    it views God as a Source, a Ground of Being that undergirds us.  Thus
    we might have:

    			men <--> women

    			G     O      D

    -- Mike

                       Re: .5
     Bonny,
    
      I am truly sorry if you are offended. I re-read what I wrote and I
     don't see what you were offended by. I'd like to clarify any mis-
     understanding. You mentioned it was true only of a very narrow 
     interpretation of the scriptures. Can you elaborate? Does Col 3:18-24
     help resolve things... or only make them worse.  
                                                     
                                                       Robin 

I prefer this more horizonal model from Galatians 3.28, attributed to
the same author as the letter to the church at Corinth:

Jews = Gentiles, slaves = free men, men = women:  One in union with Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
				No difference
    
Peace,
Richard

    I am simply offended that anyone feels that as  woman I must
    be subject to my husband as if I were a child or an inferior.
    If you tell me that I must be a second class citizen, a child
    a minor, an inferior, rather than an equal a partner, a fellow
    human being, to be a Christian, than I will tell you that your
    version of Christianity and mine don't jibe and I reject such
    an interpretation.
    
    Bonnie (with an 'ie' not a 'y')
    
    

 Bonnie, (I think I got it right this time)

>>    I am simply offended that anyone feels that as  woman I must
>>  be subject to my husband as if I were a child or an inferior.

 Not as if you were a child, but different. A husband and wife are indeed
 different and have different responsibilities etc. In Gen 2:18 when God
 was going to make Eve he said "I am going to make a helper for him, as a
 complement of him". The use of the word complement means "to complete or
 make up a whole" by definition. It's not showing man as being better.
 

>>  If you tell me that I must be a second class citizen, a child
>>  a minor, an inferior, rather than an equal a partner, a fellow
>>  human being, to be a Christian, than I will tell you that your
>>  version of Christianity and mine don't jibe and I reject such
>>  an interpretation.

No, not a second class citizen either. As I said above, different though.
Does 1 Cor 11:11,12 make you feel better? As the end of verse 12 it points
out;  "...all things are out of God". However, God is orderly and so has
established an order of headship to follow. 1 Cor 11:3 shows that a man
must answer to Christ so man in effect does not have absolute authority
over woman.  Gen 3:16 said a husband will dominate his wife. This was after
they had sinned. God was showing Eve what would happen due to selfishness
on the part of humans. Sure enough it happened too. But that was not how
God wanted a husband to treat his wife. We can see that in verses such as
Eph 5:28,1 Cor 7:3,4(both the  husband and wife are told not to be selfish)
and 1 Pet 3:7 (a husband is to treat his wife with honor). In Proverbs 31:10-31
we find a nice example of a a good and capable wife's qualities. In verse 10
it points out a capable wife is worth more then coral (very valuable back then).
In verse 28 points out a husband will praise such a wife. Certainly there is
no indication a wife should be made to feel downgraded in any way. However a
wife should respect her husbands position as husband. There is a fine model of
a wife: Sarah towards her husband Abraham. Sarah showed respect for her husband
by calling him Lord (1 Pet 3:6). 


>>  Bonnie (with an 'ie' not a 'y')
  
  I sure seem to be knocking heads with you, unintentionally, mispelling
 you name; some day I hope to be perfect. Until then, sorry(or it is sorrie?).

                       Robin    
                                                                         

	Submission carries the implication of subordination or subjugation.
And, indeed, particularly in patriarchal cultures, this has been the prevalent
doctrine and norm, and has thus influenced socially expected gender behaviors.

	I suggest that submission may also mean "to offer."  This diffuses
the hierarchical dimension of the word and gives each partner in a dyadic
relationship equal power, significance and advantage.

	God only knows why Paul said what he said to the church at Corinth
(and said something else to the Galatians).  I know only this much:  Neither
Paul nor God was addressing me, even indirectly, when Paul made this particular
statement in his letter to the Corinthians.

Peace,
Richard

Re:  209.17

  >God only knows why Paul said what he said to the church at Corinth
  >(and said something else to the Galatians).  I know only this much:  
  >Neither Paul nor God was addressing me, even indirectly, when Paul 
  >made this particular statement in his letter to the Corinthians.

Not to play the role of God,  :-)

but the Galatians verse is clearly in the context of salvation (we
are all *equally* saved and have the exact same standing before
God as the next saved person regardless of our status in life)
and the Corinthians verse is in the context of earthly role (in
this case in the broader context of worship).

God certainly does have something to share on each of these issues
with me and I view both teachings as very important.

Collis

Note 209.18

>but the Galatians verse is clearly in the context of salvation (we
>are all *equally* saved and have the exact same standing before
>God as the next saved person regardless of our status in life)
>and the Corinthians verse is in the context of earthly role (in
>this case in the broader context of worship).

If we are are equally saved, it seems like this knowledge would
permeate and influence our earthly relationships.  Remember the
Lord's prayer?  "....on earth as it is in heaven?"

Of course, some may say that salvation and earthly role are too
distinctly different for serious consideration.  I would say it all
depends, really, on your Christian perspective. ;-}

Peace,
Richard