Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    RO,
    
    I was surprised to hear from the moderator that my note had been 
    hidden because you thought it spoke to your personal life, as if I knew 
    you that well.  Perhaps, it's my style of writing, but I would say that 
    it has also to do with your unfamiliarity with it.  As a rule I speak 
    in generalities, because this leaves room for the exceptions to excuse 
    themselves.  I also write for all to hear, though the note be addressed 
    to one person.  I do this because others do read the notes and do 
    comment on them though it wasn't for them.  However, I don't mind 
    that...I write my notes with that in mind!
    
    You've entitled this topic "On judging others," and you equate "seeing 
    into hearts" with judgement.  I don't equate the two as one process, 
    but as two separate things.  According to the scripture God has given 
    unto some of us "spiritual gifts," one of which is the "discernment of 
    spirits" (I Corinthians 12:10).  That some children of God are able to 
    "discern the "spirit of the heart" is therefore given by God.  For the 
    spirit is in the heart, is it not?
    
    I am able to "discern the spirit/heart," as this IS one of several 
    gifts I have received from God, and actually the very first, many years 
    ago.  I use this gift to "admonish my brothers and sisters," and above 
    all myself.  My integrity is founded upon it.  However, to "judge" a 
    person regarding their spiritual state (i.e. any word or act that 
    proceeds from it) is not mine but God's to do.
    
    If you can find in ANY of my notes where I have judged any one, bring 
    it to my attention please, and of this I shall repent.  But again, I 
    ask that you first understand "discernment of spirits"...else you will 
    probably accuse me of being "full of debate" as I try to explain my 
    discernment.
    
    To put this in more common terms, we/I can be/am an "Attorney at the 
    Law of God."  I can build a case, just as we all can and do, and 
    present it to the Lord, and if it is well formed God will judge in my 
    favor, if not I loose the case and must repent.  However, you see how 
    the real good attorneys are able to know how the judge will decide (due 
    to experience in court!) a case, they know what to take to court or 
    not.  This is where "plea bargaining comes in.  ("For if we would judge 
    ourselves, we should not be judged."  I Corinthians 11:31).  So, on 
    some occasions, if I think my case is solid, I ask some to repent (as 
    if I've seen into the judges heart), which if they should do they get a 
    "plea bargain".  If they don't, no problem, I am not the judge and 
    cannot pass sentence, which is the heart and essence of judgement.  
    Without sentencing/condemnation there is not judgement, but only 
    "discernment."  I have not sentenced or condemned whites for the past 
    atrocities (and really the only reason I mention it is because of it's 
    continuance), but I know if they do not repent this case will go to 
    court, and God will judge and pass sentence and will not have mercy... 
    according to his word, regarding any atrocity/wickedness/sin.
    
    As I said, the progress towards making amends for this is very slow.  
    And if I hurt you, it is not I who determines when I have made amends 
    with you...you might still feel I owe you something.  The victim 
    submits the amount of damages, the judge/God will determine if it's a 
    fair assessment, and the offender will be held responsible for 
    restitution in the amount the judge/God decides (sometimes 7-fold).  
    The offender has virtually no input into it.
    
    So we find that there are some who seek "loop holes" in the law of God, 
    hoping that they might escape the judgement.  However, there shall come 
    a day when God will "judge the secrets of men" (Romans 2:16).  People 
    can hear me speak of God's word, and tell me whatever they want (I'm 
    not the judge!), but it it doesn't correspond with the Word of God I 
    don't believe what they say, and continue in the thoughts I have 
    discerned according to God's Word...at this some get upset with me, for 
    they don't want to see it like I do, which I understand to be what God 
    has said in His word, which is righteous.
    
    I hope you now understand me a little better when I write/speak.
    
    I extracted your note and took it home, to give it as much thought as 
    it required.  I can tell that it is from your heart, and I want to 
    respond from mine.
    
    I see that you have been beautified by your relationship with Cherry, 
    and no doubt she has received blessings by you...peace.
    
    1)	 You say, "God created us differently...uniquely.  But we are all 
    equal."  So you realize that the bible teaches "separate, but equal"?  
    I'm asking.
    
    2)	 You say, "Only God can see the "whole picture," and with this I 
    agree.  You say, however, (as the reason we cannot see into each 
    others' heart) "but none of us are 'there' yet and until we become as 
    Christ..."  Well, I've already spoke to "discernment of spirits", but I 
    want to ask you this.  Do you believe that Jesus was born Christ and 
    Savior, or that he was made that at a later time (i.e. somewhere near 
    the point of the beginning of his ministry)?
    
    I won't delay my next response.  Please respond to this, if you will.
    
    	 If Jesus was born Christ and Mary was impregnated by the Holy 
    	 Spirit/God directly without the aid of a natural father, us being 
    	 of a natural father, can we ever be like Christ?
    
    Or;
    
    	 If Jesus was made Christ at a later time, when God's "incarnate" 
    	 spirit came upon him, because he was worthy of it, is this the 
    	 example (in truth) how we too can become like Christ, here and 
    	 now?
    
    I will add this.  If the former is the case, that Jesus was born 
    Christ, without the seed of man, which suggests, only logically, that 
    we cannot ever be like Christ, does this contradict the essence of 
    salvation for man?
    
    Would God ask us to be and do something that by nature we cannot ever 
    be or do?
    
    4)	 How do you explain the apparent contradiction in you saying, 1)I 
    know that God created each of us differently, that is the beauty of 
    God's creation" and 2)I feel there is no difference between us as 
    Children of God?
     
    5)	 You say, "I believe the only true reality is God.  What each of us 
    sees is only our own personal "window to reality" (thus to God, one 
    could say, right, if the only reality is God?).  Then you realize that 
    the "relativity of truth" is only our "knowing in part," as Paul says 
    in I Corinthians 13.  But, he then goes on to say "But when that which 
    is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."  do 
    you believe in Absolute Truth?
    
    Do you believe that our differences in interpretations (not our 
    differences as beings) of God's Word is due simply to the fact that we 
    vary in our levels of "growing in the knowledge of the Lord"?  That 
    when we all grow up in the Lord (we, includes all that have sought to 
    grow, past and present, in the Lord) we all see things alike, though we 
    still are different beings?  In other words, when the "lion and the 
    lamb lie down together" can they have the same mind, though one is the 
    lion and the other the lamb?
    
    6)	 I said, "Basically, YOU and your counterparts MUST begin to...." 
    you said I was judging you.  Have I really "judged" you?  Have I 
    instead "discerned a spirit" and "admonished" you regarding it?  Have I 
    condemned and/or sentenced you?
    
    Did you not say that your friend, Cherry, has raised her kids *like 
    you*..." which implies you have given of your wisdom of raising 
    children?  Does your first note reflect what Cherry has taught you?  
    (This basenote goes into it, but my comment was regarding the first 
    note.)
    
    7)	 You say, "I've learned that the opposite of Love is not hate, but 
    fear," indeed you have learned well.  Hate is an emotion that proceeds 
    from fear.
    
    In conclusion, I will offer this scripture:
    
    	 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, 
    	 evangelists; and some pastors and teachers:  For the perfecting of 
    	 the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the 
    	 body of Christ:  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and 
    	 of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the 
    	 measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.  That we 
    	 henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro..."
    
    	      	   	     	       Ephesians 4:11-14
    
    
    May God add a blessing to those who truly seek him.
    
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth
    	      	   
    

Playtoe,

You've asked some thought provoking questions which I hope could be discussed
in a friendly way.  I'd like to point out, though, that some people don't
appreciate being "admonished", and this admonishment may very well be
contrary to the conference rules.  If you'd concentrate on discussing
theology and sharing your own life experiences rather than criticizing others
then I think things would go a lot more smoothly.

				-- Bob

    Re: 2
    
    I hear what you're saying, and will focus more on Theology, which I
    already try to do.  It's funny though...I won't explain, however, I'll
    just do as you say and let's see how it goes then.  
    
    My response does abide by your request, does it not?  Let's see how it
    goes....
    
    Thanks
    
    Playtoe

    Playtoe,
    
    why not try and see if you can abide by the conference rules
    without 'abandoning God' as you put it. It could be creative
    for you.
    
    Bonnie

    Re: 4
    
    I will.  I don't have a serious problem though, do you think?  I mean
    the percentage of my notes that are deleted is like less than 1%.  
    
    The problem I've had is not so much with conference rules as much as it
    has been certain people being offended by my context and content.  It
    has to do with the conference and it's noters.  Like Soapbox, hardly no
    blacks go into it because they are so often offended, there was a note
    in Blacknotes that was for blowing off steam from being hurt in
    Soapbox...so.  In Blacknotes, I can enter Black Christian Perspective
    and no problem, here they aren't entertained.  I'm not saying anything
    except conference rules are the same in all these notes but it's more
    the members of the conference that influence when and what rules are
    enforced.  
    
    For instance, (and again I have no problem with this, in Rome do as the
    Romans would have you do or leave) I feel that although my name wasn't
    mentioned but my note referenced in the Guilt Shame and perspectives
    topic it represents a subtle way of personal attack.  Now, had I done
    this to someone elses words, (opened a file to say what they said was
    unacceptable) it would (I honestly believe) be stopped.  Because
    everybody knows me as a black person and they know my style, and they
    have no problem checking me, as much as they do their own kind and
    friends...this is my personal opinion which in my experience bears a
    grain of truth, no problem however, because I can work around it.
    
    Anyway, I've probably said too much already, and I'm not asking for
    your sympathy, because I love the challenge...
    
    Playtoe

Re:  previous

I have yet to see any indication whatsoever that there is any prejudgment
of anyone in this file based on the color of the skin.

Now, I have to admit that I have seen (and experienced :-) ) prejudgment
based on beliefs (or expected beliefs).  I think that this kind of
prejudgment happens quite a bit (I certainly do it).

I think your contention that your skin color is relevant to any type
of response you have received in this notes conference is errorneous.

Collis

Collis - 

Could it be....???  Yes!  We're in agreement!  ;-)

It's been my experience, thought, that if I'm anticipating a certain 
response from someone then I'll usually interpret what I get in light 
of my own expectations.  In other words many times, you get what you expect.
Playtoe, could your perception of discrimintation in this file be of your
own creation rather than ours?

Nanci

    RE: Playtoe
    
                    This is the *EXACT* reason why I try very hard not to
    ask about race.  Pardon the pun....but it does "color" the issue.  I
    feel that you are Christian....beyond that, I don't care what or even 
    who you are....it is enough that you are Christian.
    
    
    Dave

Note 204.6

>I have yet to see any indication whatsoever that there is any prejudgment
>of anyone in this file based on the color of the skin.

!!Gasp!!  Omigosh!!  I agree with Collis, too!!


<sound of me passing out on the floor> Thud!!!


:-}

>Now, I have to admit that I have seen (and experienced :-) ) prejudgment
>based on beliefs (or expected beliefs).  I think that this kind of
>prejudgment happens quite a bit (I certainly do it).

Sorry about that.  We're working on this, I hope you know.

>I think your contention that your skin color is relevant to any type
>of response you have received in this notes conference is erroneous.

I cannot tell anyone's skin color here!  Just as none of you can see me
sitting in a wheelchair.  Most of you don't realize how attractive and
desirable I am, either.  Poor devils. 8-}

Peace,
Richard

    Playtoe,
    
    I agree with the past few.
    
    >In Blacknotes, I can enter Black Christian Perspective
    >and no problem, here they aren't entertained. 
    
    If you say something that sounds "foreign" to me, or is something with
    which I strongly disagree, I don't say, "There's that Black perspective
    again; I reject that!"  I say, I don't agree with *what* he said, or I
    don't like that, or my experience is different from his, or maybe even,
    I'm offended.  But it isn't because it's a "Black perspective" --
    because unless you were to preface something by saying, "This comes
    from the Black Christian community' or "as we say in the Black
    churches," etc., I simply don't think to myself: "This is from Playtoe;
    therefore it's a Black perspective!"
    
    It doesn't enter my mind until you -- somewhat defensively it seems to
    me -- claim that someone rejects it *because* it is a "Black
    perspective."
    
    Nancy
    

>Most of you don't realize how attractive and
>desirable I am, either.
    
    
    I don't know that I would agree with that, Richard.  (*8
    
    
    E Grace who really isn't here.

Re:  agreement

It doesn't surprise me that you agree with me.

What I don't understand, is why you don't agree with me more often.

  :-)  :-)

Collis

Note 204.11

>    E Grace who really isn't here.

Well, as long as you're not really here, may I say that it is wonderful
to "not" have you here?                                       ^^^^^^^^^

A hug for the hug slut,
Richard

    RE: 10
    
    Right Nancy, this is not done overtly, such that I preface the
    statements with "This is the Black Perspective", but it is an implied
    thing.  If I say something that is in the Black Perspective that blacks
    generally, or for the most part, accept or believe, and I put in here
    and it is wholly or for the most part rejected, it is only logical or
    at least suggestive that it is because of the heritege difference... of
    course depending on what it is I'm saying.  I'm not ignorant of
    analytical criteria and believe I can determine what causes
    problems in communication of this nature.  Depending upon if a person
    reacts or responds, or uses certain types of statements in their
    response, or uses certain types of information to respond or react,
    helps to determine where a person is coming from and why they say what
    they say.  If not exactly, it gives a very good idea.  If you say this
    cannot be done then you deny the validity of the entire purpose of
    Psychological Therepay, as their conclusions are based upon much the
    same sort of standards.  
    
    I also would point out the if I say a person is reacting or responding
    because of this or that and the person rejects that thought and says
    I'm totally wrong, I question their ability/capacity for self
    reflection as well as my presumption.  Some people may not have ever
    thought of it as I said, and will reject the thought as totally wrong
    because they hadn't thought of it like that, though that could be the
    very reason, they just don't see it like that.  Which as you would
    guess shouldn't altar my perception...as in the case of Psychology, if
    the Psychologist allowed the patient to change their conclusions like
    this, surely we'd have no patients in therapy today!
    
    Unless one is knowledgeable and experienced in a given thing one could
    not make the kinds of presumptions I make at times, but I'm confident
    that my intuition is quite good, and I have cultivated it with a lot of
    study and engaging in discussions for experience.  So what some may see
    as my "pigheadedness" or "narrowmindedness" or "intransigence" are to
    me just "name calling" and reactionism for the most part, which tends
    to add fuel to the fire!  But people underestimate you sometimes when
    they really don't know you that well...so I forgive them.
    
    I don't necessarily bring heritege in as a defensive measure, but as
    simply an aspect that should be considered...considering that it is a
    very valid aspect in America and history.  We often try to sidestep the
    discussion of "racism/racial" issues.  And many people have it
    habitually to deny that it is a factor in any of their affairs.  But, I
    know it is a very real aspect, and the more we sidestep it the longer
    it shall remain so...and that's often the cause of my frustration and
    my sense of urgency about it.
    
    I just need to watch how I introduce it as an aspect, though again it
    tends to be more a matter of "what" I'm saying that is the bone of
    contention, moreso than how I say it, because some people just refuse
    to discuss racial matters.
    
    Playtoe

    RE: 6
    
    I'm not speaking of skin color as much as one's history and perspective
    that has been influence greatly by your skin color.  So if said skin
    color, that is to say one's perspective because of it...surely skin
    color alone says nothing.  
    
    If you say that you have experienced prejudgements based on beliefs or
    expected beliefs, this is what I'm saying, and also that this may be
    affected by the fact that one is of a certain race and history. 
    Valueing Differences must take both the perception and the race into
    account to understand the difference, and use this to "value" others
    and not to "hurt".  Surely if "racism" did not result in the
    "domination and oppression" based on skin color, but involved the
    opposite (whatever that is, say "affirmative action" programs) then
    there would be no problem with distinction by skin color.  Only because
    the color of skin has been used detrimentally has it come to be a term
    of negative implication/connotation.
    
    Playtoe

    re: .14
    
    Playtoe,
    
    >If I say something that is in the Black Perspective that blacks
    >generally, or for the most part, accept or believe, and I put in here
    >and it is wholly or for the most part rejected, it is only logical or
    >at least suggestive that it is because of the heritege difference... of
    >course depending on what it is I'm saying.  
    
    That's quite different from saying it's because of racism!
    
    
    >I'm not ignorant of analytical criteria and believe I can determine
    >what causes problems in communication of this nature.  Depending
    >upon if a person reacts or responds, or uses certain types of
    >statements in their response, or uses certain types of information to
    >respond or react, helps to determine where a person is coming from and
    >why they say what they say. 
    
    I can remember when I first learned that "flesh-colored" bandaids
    were racist and pointed out how indemic white racism is in our
    country, so I am not denying that some of our reactions to your ideas
    may inadvertently be due to racism.  
    
    However, I have not yet been convinced of that by those of your notes
    *that I have read*  (I haven't read them all!)  I also can appreciate
    the "difficulties in communication" of which you speak -- such as those
    between Mike Seabury's Zen perspective and my Christian perspective. 
    We have at least some interest in trying to resolve our
    miscommunications.  
    
    Some of us would be open to a similar resolution of miscommunication
    with you, too, but labeling us "racist," as though we were intentionally
    misunderstanding you, is not the way to do it.
    
    Nancy

    Playtoe,
    
    I know as personal friends a reasonable sample of Blacknoters, all
    of whom tell me that they don't regard what you espouse as the
    'Black Perspective' on faith, but rather the perspective of some
    Blacks, and one they don't agree with.
    
    Bonnie

    RE: 16
    
    Nancy
    
>    ... so I am not denying that some of our reactions to your ideas
>    may inadvertently be due to racism.  
    
>    However, I have not yet been convinced of that by those of your notes
>    *that I have read*  (I haven't read them all!)  
    
>    Some of us would be open to a similar resolution of miscommunication
>    with you, too, but labeling us "racist," as though we were intentionally
>    misunderstanding you, is not the way to do it.
    
    I would submit that the reason you and others may not perceive what is
    a "racist" reaction/response is because you don't know what is "racism"
    and the history of racist practices in America.  I have a very good
    paper that defines Racism and other related terms, and also I have a
    paper called "The Rightness of Whiteness", which discusses the effects
    that Racism has had on whites, as opposed to its effect of blacks. 
    They are on the system so I can send them to you if you'd care to get a
    better understanding of Racism.  Understand that the information I have
    comes under the auspices of the National Education Association and
    universities in America, at least their conclusions are those provided
    as reference in these papers. 
    
    Resolving miscommunications is only fair to truth and justice, if we
    desire to have it in our affairs.  If we don't judge ourselves,
    however, God will.  So it would be nice if we could clear up the
    problem of at least language...though there is apparently more to it
    than this.  "History" has a great bearing on language, and influences
    interpretation of a word.  If we could clear up the matter of history,
    then language would naturally follow, IMO.  
    
    It just takes time, but that time won't come without us making a little
    headway each day.  We just can't sit back and wait on the time and not
    do anything to make that time come...If not us, then who?  If not now,
    then when?
    
    Playtoe

    RE: .18
    
               Playtoe,
                           Until you told me, I had *NO* idea that you were
    "black".  I don't believe that it will change my perspective of in any
    way unless it is to understand "where your comming from".  In *THIS* 
    medium, it would be impossible to correctly attribute race to anyone.
    Its hard enough to tell gender! :^)
    
                          I believe it would be wise to confine our
    comments to a "Christian perspective"  accounting for the medium in
    which we converse.  Charges of racism are *VERY* dangerous and IMHO
    ought not be leveled at anyone unless there is cause.  If you find
    there is cause, then I would ask you to bring it up to a moderator and
    ask that person to handle it.  In this company there are *VERY*
    specific policies against this and ways to "deal" with it.
    
    
    Dave

    RE: 17
    
    I challenge you and those Blacknoters to prove it!  I say that those
    who don't relate to what I say as the "black perspective" haven't
    studied the matter as I have.  And if they would, they'd agree that
    what I say is what black leaders and leading black intellects consider
    the Black Perspective.  I know what I'm talking about, and those in
    Blacknotes who know the Black Perspective agree, (i.e. Jesse Jones,
    David Littles).  If you ask someone who hasn't studied the issue, how
    can you accept their opinions on the matter.  Why not ask people who
    are into or know about the Black Perspective, instead of the rebels and
    mavericks of black society?
    
    Furthermore, more and more blacknoters are coming into the knowledge of
    the Black Perspective, and I don't get the hassles I use to get...but
    I'm not as refined as I am now in delivering this message to the
    unlearned.
    
    This is a defensive reply because Bonnie you're casting a dark shadow
    on my words, and I don't think that it is fair for you to say what
    you've said so confidently without knowing what you're talking about. 
    Do you know the Black Perspective?  Don't tell me that there is none,
    because that only shows that you don't know what you're talking about.
    
    In the words of Malcolm X, "If you don't know your history you'll
    contend with this.  Most black folks don't know their history and most
    black folks will contend with this".  
    
    As I said, if you know history you'll see the Black Perspective, and
    what I'm saying...and what I say is not my own but inspired and gleaned
    from the top-most black leaders in America past and present...Can
    others that you refer to say as much, and provide the support for that?
    
    Playtoe

        This discussion, from .17 onward, is becoming very personal
        and very critical.  Please reconsider your words and the
        message you are conveying!

        Bob, co-mod

    re: .18, Playtoe,
    
    You are quick to label anyone who doesn't agree with you.  Because I
    don't agree with you, you think I have not studied white racism.  It so
    happens that I have studied it intensely and immersed myself in such a 
    study.  However, I owe you no proof and will offer none.  I do not
    care to read your offerings because I *have* studied and read many
    similar works in the past.  I do not doubt that they are worthy and of
    value.  I do not doubt that there is now -- and always will be --
    systemic racism in my thinking *and in yours*!
    
    However, there is no hope of further dialog unless and until you are
    willing to discuss on a personal basis with others, granting them the
    same respect and equality you are quick to demand for yourself, without
    claiming to have THE only Christian perspective and THE only Black
    perspective and without hiding behind the charge of racism every time
    someone disagrees with you.
    
    Nothing in your note effectively negates my .16.  You skirted the issue
    nicely, demanding that I engage in further study rather than offering
    to extend yourself by trying to define your terms and *your personal
    experiences.*
    
    Frankly, Playtoe, I have lost interest.
    
    Nancy

| If I say something that is in the Black Perspective that blacks
| generally, or for the most part, accept or believe, and I put in here
| and it is wholly or for the most part rejected, it is only logical or
| at least suggestive that it is because of the heritege difference... 


	Do other blacks have a problem here? Like many have said, I don't know
who's what color, until they mention it. I could no more tell that you were any
color. The color itself doesn't matter. I'm white. I've put a lot of things
into various Christian notes files that people don't agree with. I don't accuse
them of any form of predjudice. They believe a certain way, I believe a certain
way. That's life. I think I can only find a few people who would agree with
some of what I say. But I believe in what I say so I continue on with it. All I
can do is to tell others how I feel. You can't expect people to just accept
your views on any given subject. All you can do is to educate the best you can
and hope that they see your point. In time maybe they will. In time maybe you
would adjust your way of thinking a little, who knows? Just take one day at a
time.


Glen

| I would submit that the reason you and others may not perceive what is
| a "racist" reaction/response is because you don't know what is "racism"
| and the history of racist practices in America.  

	Playtoe, don't you feel that women have been put through the ringer?
Aren't they still being put through the same ringer, but to a lesser extent (as
it is with ALL people considered minorities)? I think that Nancy just might be
able to tell when someone is being put down in a racist form. I can't speak for
her, but she seems to be a very good judge of character from what I've seen.
She can accept all (from what I've seen) forms of minorities. Anyone who is
considered what people call a minority can distinguish the different forms of
racism. Yes, it does go on in the world, but it's not going on in here.

	And yes, I hope there is a day when everyone will be considered as
equals. I REALLY can't wait for that to happen.

Glen

    
    
    Let me help some of you out.  It is not surprising or unexpected that
    some resent those that teach and minister with authority as I
    do...some nations have always killed the prophets and true ministers of
    God, never have received a prophet in a prophets name.  Disbelief in
    things unseen is typical of some nations as well, they live a very
    material existence, by what they can see with the natural eye, and they
    see not the inner life.  
    
    I will enter notes as I see fit, in the way I see fit.  You can reject
    them, argue, delete, next-unseen, whatever.  But it is a cheap shot to
    say things like "there is no hope of further dialog UNLESS AND UNTIL
    you are willing..." I think this is about second to however said
    "Hearing the word of God from you makes me want to quit being a
    Christian."  You know, I never say things about the way people say
    something but always comment on the info itself that a person is
    conveying.  Or, I may comment on the reason way a person doesn't
    understand something, because I believe that one must be in position to
    learn and learning just doesn't happen anytime anywhere, haphazardly. 
    One must be "seeking" to find, one must be "knocking" to open, we must
    be "asking" in order to receive, what God has instore for us.  Because
    due to our "nature" the things of God do not enter freely into our
    hearts and minds, but we must call/invoke them in us.  Anyway, I give
    everyone the space to say anything the way they want, because I don't
    want anyone to feel uncomfortable in that they feel they have to change
    the way the see things for me, to save my feelings of whatever.  So the
    respect that I expect is that I should be allowed to have this same
    liberty.  But moreso, the reason I do this is not for my personal
    reasons, but because in order to minister I have to be strong enough to
    listen to all kinds of things people say...it hurts sometimes to hear
    people say certain things, but I have to be stronger than that to
    respond as God would have me to.
    
    I have never said that I have THE ONLY Christian and Black
    perspectives, but I am confident that I do have and know THE Christian
    and Black perspective.  How that becomes the ONLY is beyond me.  
    
    If some don't agree that I have THE Christian and Black perspective
    they don't convince me with "vehement denial" or strong emotions, but
    they do it with instruction and information.  I'm confident if you seek
    to refute me on THE Christian and Black perspective that the
    information you'll discover will only validate me...so that's where my
    head is at on "disagreements".
    
    I think I'm more "naked to the world" than most people, in that I don't
    have the "masks" that many of us wear.  I am quite open minded.  I
    trust in God, and he is my shield, so I need no masks.  I am not afraid
    of people and what they have on their minds, or what they might do to
    me, because God is with me and he has always protected me...
    
    Anyway, you don't need to worry about my comments and teachings
    anymore, just do as you feel with them.  It is not my first priority to
    speak to make friends, but my first priority is to speak to uplift man. 
    And that is a mysterious thing, beyond comprehension...so if I get
    folks too upset surely they no how to overlook my notes...I really
    don't mind...or if my notes break to conference rules they can be
    deleted.  But I'll have you and all others know that I'll be here
    noting til it's time for me to move on, and I'll decide that, and no
    one can rush me, because I know how to Next Unseen too!
    
    Playtoe

    One of the reasons I admire John Woolman is the humility that he
    exhibited throughout his life.  Far from claiming to have the last word
    on matters of religion, when he ministered to the Indians he not only
    spoke, but also listened.
    
        "It being a rainy day we continued in our tent, and here I was led
        to think on the nature of the exercise which hath attended me. 
        Love was the first motion, and then a concern arose to spend some
        time with the Indians, that I might feel and understand their life
        and the spirit they live in, if haply I might receive some
        instruction from them, or they be in any degree helped forward by
        my following the leadings of Truth amongst them."
    		- John Woolman's journal, 1763
    
    -- Mike

    RE: 26
    
    You cannot judge by these statements Mr. Woolman's humility, as opposed
    to his "self-righteousness".  You cannot determine how far he went in
    listening and learning from the Indians, as opposed to "following the
    leadings of TRUTH amongst them."  Now what makes you think this Mr.
    Woolman knows the TRUTH such that he could effectively minister IT to
    them?  What makes you think I don't have it?
    
    Playtoe

    Re: .27
    
    I would say it would be in the fruit Woolman bore.  John Woolman,
    almost single-handedly, persuaded nearly every Quaker slave-owner
    to liberate their slaves long before the War Between the States erupted.
    (I refuse to use the words "Civil War," which I consider a contradiction
    in terms.)
    
    Woolman refused to wear dyed clothing because the dyes were then made
    from indigo, a crop which perpetuated slavery.  Before Martin Luther King,
    Jr., Woolman was the public figure closest to being popularly thought
    of as an American saint, IMHO.
    
    May I inspect your fruit, Playtoe?
    
    Peace,
    Richard

re Note 204.25 by SWAM1::DOTHARD_ST:

>     I have never said that I have THE ONLY Christian and Black
>     perspectives, but I am confident that I do have and know THE Christian
>     and Black perspective.  How that becomes the ONLY is beyond me.  
  
        Playtoe,

        Perhaps the word usage you are familiar with differs from
        mine, but I believe that to most Americans saying "I have THE
        thing X" is semantically equivalent to saying "I have the
        ONLY thing X."  I'm not talking theology here, just plain
        English language.
          
>     I think I'm more "naked to the world" than most people, in that I don't
>     have the "masks" that many of us wear.  I am quite open minded.  

        You certainly speak your mind freely, but I for one don't
        consider it to be ALWAYS the best to speak your (or my!)
        mind.

        Bob

| Let me help some of you out.  It is not surprising or unexpected that
| some resent those that teach and minister with authority as I
| do...some nations have always killed the prophets and true ministers of
| God, never have received a prophet in a prophets name.  Disbelief in
| things unseen is typical of some nations as well, they live a very
| material existence, by what they can see with the natural eye, and they
| see not the inner life.

	Playtoe. You certainly think very highly of yourself. And you should.
Everyone should. But aren't we boasting a bit when writing that stuff in here,
or saying it on the streets? Isn't that really being pridefull?



Glen

| You cannot judge by these statements Mr. Woolman's humility, as opposed
| to his "self-righteousness".  You cannot determine how far he went in
| listening and learning from the Indians, as opposed to "following the
| leadings of TRUTH amongst them."  Now what makes you think this Mr.
| Woolman knows the TRUTH such that he could effectively minister IT to
| them?  What makes you think I don't have it?

	To answer your last question, reread the 1st paragraph of note .25.
Really read it and think about it.


Glen

    in re .20
    
    talk to Lauren Foster, George Brooks, or Greg Bruno who was
    btw the founder of Blacknotes and left because of what he felt
    was your distorition of the Black perspective.
    
    Bonnie

    RE: 31
    
    Glen, will you just say what's on your mind...I think I see what you're
    implying but I'm not sure...you're entitled to your opinions, and I
    welcome your insights.
    
    Playtoe

    Re: 32
    
    Bonnie, you CANNOT speak for these people, and it's not a good practice
    to repeat what a person tells you about another person.  Greg sayiny it
    was ME that made him leave, I'm sure you don't think that's the whole
    reason, if it was me at all, knowing Greg I surely didn't compel him to
    do anything, but it must have been something he was planning to do
    anyway, as he mentioned the number of years he's been the Moderator.
    
    Bonnie, I'm being nice about this whole thing...let it rest, it does no
    good to start bringing in names.
    
    Playtoe

| Glen, will you just say what's on your mind...I think I see what you're
| implying but I'm not sure...you're entitled to your opinions, and I
| welcome your insights.

	Playtoe, from your notes I get the impression that you know what's
right, and you're sure fine about telling everyone that, and if someone
disagree's with you, they are wrong. Not just about some things, but about
everything. You may have great knowledge about a lot of different subjects, and
for that I think it's great. I always like it when one can better themselves
with knowledge, especially when it has to do with a lot of different subjects.
Maybe this next part should be put under the humility note, but can't you be
more humble? I keep reading how YOU know this, YOU know that. You're very good
at tooting your own horn. If you present the information you have without
tooting your own horn, then you will see that people might start taking what
you say for what it is, information. 


Glen