Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    re:0
    As far as I know, the Roman Catholic Church has never taught that hell 
    does not exist. It would contradict Scripture to do so.

    Peace
    Jim

>I saw in article in US & World Report that said the belief in hell is returning.
>Statistics showed that more people believe in hell now than they ever did 
>before, more so than the 1950's which was considered the last pious period of
>American life.  

    I saw that as well. I also saw a follow up letter to the editor that
    said that the change was not statistically significant. While I didn't
    do the map that was the same conclusion I came to off the top of my
    head. Of course given the fact that many people and churches are
    teaching that hell isn't fair so could not be, the fact that the number
    of people who believe in hell has not gone down is of itself
    significant.

    Of course to me having rules without having negative consequences
    for failure to abide by those rules is unfair. So hell is as logical
    a conclusion to exist as heaven. Unless you believe that rewards come
    only during life. If you believe the later then life certainly is
    unfair and can not exist. :-)

    			Alfred

re: .2

I always wondered the same about how some liberal theologians could teach that
there is no hell.  That would mean God is unjust. How would one deal with those
who are evil that commit terrible wrongs?   How do liberal theologians deal 
with the concept of evil anyway?

Alfred,

Don't you believe in the concept of grace?  If so, is it that far a leap to
say that God offers grace to all of humanity and not just to those who accept
Jesus as their savior?

				-- Bob

>Don't you believe in the concept of grace?  

    Yes.

    >If so, is it that far a leap to
>say that God offers grace to all of humanity and not just to those who accept
>Jesus as their savior?

    Yes is is a *very* large leap. One that quite frankly I can not
    conceive of making. It negates the whole purpose of Jesus' coming to
    earth. It negates the whole purpose of having the 10 commandments in
    old testament times. It does in fact negate the whole existence of
    the Bible. Yes that is a very very large leap.

    			Alfred

Alfred,

I don't think it's a matter of logic.  It's a matter of faith.

If you want to believe in hell that's O.K.  Just don't try to tell me that a
god who sends people to hell is also a god of infinite love.

"I swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell."
					- Blood, Sweat & Tears

				-- Bob

    I've always enjoyed the explaination for Hell given in
    Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's book Inferno. It was
    described as an 'insane asylum' for the 'theologically
    insane' - the last chance for God to get their attention.
    The image they presented was that anyone who truely tried
    hard enough could leave.
    
    Interesting.
    
    Bonnie

    
    "One person's heaven is another person's hell".
    
      ...something I read in a book not too long ago.
    
    Carole

    My personal musings, so no flames, please:
    
    Hell is separation from God, rather than a "place."  Those who
    reject God and choose separation may, perhaps, cease to exist,
    since separation from God would, be definition, mean separation
    from life itself.
    
    The justice argument simply doesn't wash for me.  Sin and punishment
    would *never* come out evenly balanced, either or without some kind of
    everlasting punishment.  So justice would never be served.
    
    Nancy

Hi Nancy,

>    Hell is separation from God, rather than a "place."  Those who
>    reject God and choose separation may, perhaps, cease to exist,
>    since separation from God would, be definition, mean separation
>    from life itself.

That's my understanding, too.

I'm also reminded of a line by Laurie Anderson:

"Paradise is exactly like where you are right now; only much, MUCH better."

One who rejects their loving higher power (I'm being intentionally broad here)
has a taste of hell.

One who accepts their loving higher power has a glimpse of heaven.

I've had a touch of both, I choose Life.

I also would recommend the book _The Hope of Heaven_ by Helen Oppenheimer.
It's not easy reading, but I think it is quite sound.

Peace,

Jim

>If you want to believe in hell that's O.K.  Just don't try to tell me that a
>god who sends people to hell is also a god of infinite love.

    Why not? I'm afraid I don't see the contradiction. Are parents who
    punish their children showing hate or love? I believe love. 

    		Alfred

    
    RE: .11 Alfred
    
    Do you not see the difference between sending people to hell and
    punishing children for wrongdoing?  Particularly with the 
    descriptions of hell that are prevalent in traditional religion!
    To me, the two just don't equate and do not make for a very strong
    argument.
    
    Carole

>    Do you not see the difference between sending people to hell and
>    punishing children for wrongdoing?  
    
    It's a difference only in degree. In principle it's very much the
    same. I punish my son by letting him know I am upset. In serious
    cases he is removed from me much as how (in concept) I picture
    sereration from God being what Hell is all about. DO you see the
    similarity?
    
    Off on a difference tact, what then is the Bible talking about in
    places like Luke 13:28 and "you yourselves [are] thrust out." I counted
    60 some references to "hell" in the Bible. QUite a few for something
    that appears not to exist or have any meaning according to some here.
    
    Does it exist? If not why does the Bible talk about it so much? If
    it does, what is it for?
    
    		Alfred

     Re.10

           I like that definition you have given. In the book "Zorba
     The Greek" ( I ain't even gonna try and spell the author's name)
     Zorba says, "You take the brush, you paint heaven or hell and then
     in you go !"
           Someplace in the Bible, I just looked and couldn't find it,
     there is something about the kingdom of heaven being around us, if
     I remember correctly. 
            
                                                               Mike
           

Alfred,

People punish their kids because punishment will improve the kids'
characters.  Since Hell is a permanent condition how can it improve
anyone?  Isn't it more loving to show mercy to someone than to condemn
them to *everlasting* punishment?

				-- Bob

    Re: 5
    
    I don't agree.  "Grace is a gift given freely by God".  Without grace
    no one lives.  It is by grace the life came into being, and that it
    continues, and when we accept Christ, it is by grace that we are saved. 
    Grace is present at all times in the universe, due to the prevailence
    of the Holy Spirit within the universe.  It is fundamental to life.
    
    God created good and he created evil, according to Isaiah(?).  The
    wicked for the wicked day, the righteous for the righteous day, all
    live by grace however.  
    
    On a practical level.  We can realize "Grace" in us, by the fact that
    we have "automatic" processes of body and mind, which perpetuate our
    lives without our conscious effort...that is the "Grace".  When you
    read this note, you don't have to make a conscious effort to understand
    it, automatically (according to your experiences and current knowledge)
    the words are analysed, synthesized and opinions are formed
    automatically.  You then type reply (a conscious effort) and begin to
    type away...what you type, however, came to you by Grace, by the Grace
    of God, bearing witness to that "God Seed" we all agree (as Christians)
    is in us.
    
    Hermes, of Egypt, said, "That within us that "sees and hears" is that
    God Seed."  In other words, this is the "subjective" or "subconscious"
    mind, perhaps, deeper than that, more like the "sanctum santorium" or
    the inner-inner sanctuary of the soul.  Remember in the OT, where in
    the temple you have the sanctuary and then within that is a set of
    curtains and a purely holy inner sanctuary where only the high priest
    enters, this is the place where God dwells while he visits you...which
    is to say, "God will not always strive with man" Genesis 6.  The Grace
    remains with you, like you don't cut off the electricity and water and
    gas, at home when you go to work or vacation...same thing the Grace
    must remain with you because God comes and goes from time to time,
    depending on when he needs you...
    
    The thing is learning to discern Him in you...many people speak as God
    and perform the will of God unawares, God is using them and they don't
    even realize it...That's what the Bible is for, to teach you about
    God's spirit and ways, so that when he visits your life you'll
    recognize Him, and not erroreous mistake Him for someone else, like
    your self...exalting thyself above all that is called God....
    
    Playtoe  

    Re: 6
    
    According to scripture, God has no desire to see any one die and go to
    hell.  It says that we do die and go to hell because of our unbelief. 
    So God doesn't send one to hell but it is our choice...I place before
    you life and death...Choose!
    
    Playtoe

    re: 7
    
    Bonnie
    
    That is a very good analogy of what I believe and what the bible
    teaches as well...as David prays "Do not leave my soul in hell"...
    
    Playtoe

    re: 7
    
    As a matter of fact, Theology and Sanity, by F.S. Sheed elaborates the
    insanity of not believing in God well clearly...I had never thought of
    like that, but it is more than a notion to realize that an unbelief in
    God is a form of insanity!
    
    Playtoe

    re .11 (CVG::THOMPSON)/Alfred
    
>>If you want to believe in hell that's O.K.  Just don't try to tell me that a
>>god who sends people to hell is also a god of infinite love.
>
>    Why not? I'm afraid I don't see the contradiction. Are parents who
>    punish their children showing hate or love? I believe love. 
    
    	My thoughts are similar to Bob Messengers ... Parents punish
    children to 1) teach them discipline and thus make them better people
    and 2) to impress upon them the fact of life that wrongful actions
    cannot be tolerated because they are harmful to individuals and
    society, and that wrongful acts aren't approved by society (and by God,
    for that matter).  The experience of punishment makes the threat of
    future punishment more real, and thus acts as a deterent (in theory,
    any way).
    
    	At best, we'd have to say that God's sentencing someone to eternal
    torment in hell is an act of love on behalf of society at large, since
    it removes the wicked from the midst of the righteous for good.  But
    since the protection of society is the only obvious good that comes of
    it, why make the punishment one of eternal, conscious torment (whether
    literally painful, or just emotionally so)?  How is justice served by
    inflicting conscious torment upon someone for eternity, with no hope of
    reprieve?
    
    								-mark.

Re:  .20

Cuts to the question of "what is justice", doesn't it.

Collis

    
    Hi Nancy (.7),
    
>>    Hell is separation from God, rather than a "place."  Those who
    reject God and choose separation may, perhaps, cease to exist,
    since separation from God would, be definition, mean separation
    from life itself.<<
    
    This is my belief also except I would add one word 'Hell is the
    *illusion* of the separation from God'.  I do not believe we can ever
    be separated from God except in our minds.  God has never left us.
    To me the 'hell' is right here on earth, until we 'remember' God and
    that we are with him in Oneness.
    
    Ro
    

    re .21 (XLIB::JACKSON)
    
>Cuts to the question of "what is justice", doesn't it.
    
    	Yes, it certainly does.  I'd say that a consideration of this
    question is a required aspect of any discussion of Hell.
    
    								-mark.

Note 203.9

>    Hell is separation from God, rather than a "place."  Those who
>    reject God and choose separation may, perhaps, cease to exist,
>    since separation from God would, be definition, mean separation
>    from life itself.

Nancy,

	What you have stated is also one of my understandings of death,
especially as it is spoken of by Jesus.

Peace,
Richard

Note 203.14

>           Someplace in the Bible, I just looked and couldn't find it,
>     there is something about the kingdom of heaven being around us, if
>     I remember correctly. 

Mike,

	I think you're referring to Luke 17.20-21.  Also, Jesus spoke of the
kingdom of heaven in terms of the present and of the future.

Peace,
Richard

    
                 I don't pretend to understand Hell.  I don't fully
    understand Heaven either....but I *know* they both exist.  If I 
    was standing before God right now and he asked me why I belong in
    Heaven......I know my answer...do you?
    
    Dave

    From my own .13
    
    Off on a difference tact, what then is the Bible talking about in
    places like Luke 13:28 and "you yourselves [are] thrust out." I counted
    60 some references to "hell" in the Bible. QUite a few for something
    that appears not to exist or have any meaning according to some here.
    
    Does it exist? If not why does the Bible talk about it so much? If
    it does, what is it for?
    
    				Alfred

    Just because the Bible talks about hell doesn't mean it exists in fact.
    
    Mike

    RE: .28 Interesting suggestion. That is why I asked my questions.
    No answers yet so I'll still assuming that hell does exist though.
    
    			ALfred

    "Though I make my bed in hell, lo, Thou art there!"
    
    I strongly doubt the existence of hell as a "place." 
    How does this verse from Psalms fit into a belief in hell as
    a place of everlasting punishment?

    Dave
    
    My answer would be, Lord I am a sinner, but I have always believed
    in You and tried to do what  I believed a good Christian should 
    do. I have failed many times in that service, but I think I have been
    able to reach and comfort  many people. My sins I cannot excuse, but
    if Your offer of enternal grace is true, then I am welcome in
    heaven through Christ 's sacrifice for all times.
    
    Bonnie

    I believe that there is Heaven and Hell, God's word states it.
    
    God does not send people to hell, people send them selfs there, 
    by not believing in God and not putting there faith and trust in Christ. 
    
    Y'shua, the only path to salvation.
    
    Bill

    
    	Just like it wasn't the airlines fault that we missed our plane
    Sunday.  Neither is it Gods' fault if someone misses heaven.  We 
    made some decisions on the things that we did.  The plane was available
    as promised we just failed to meet the conditions to take advantage of
    the trip home.  
    	The Lord has supplied the Way home and it is up to each person to
    meet Him at the Gate.  If you don't show up that doesn't mean that God
    caused you to miss your chance.
    
    _ed-

Sorry, I don't buy this "It isn't God's fault" argument.  A loving God would
not make unloving rules.

				-- Bob

    RE: .36 Of course wether or not the rule is unloving is a major
    point of contention here isn't it?
    
    			Alfred

  >...unloving rules

Is it unloving to reveal yourself to your people?

Is it unloving to share proper conduct with your people?

Is it unloving to recognize your people's need to act properly and find
a way to forgive them regardless?

Is it unloving to come to earth as a man and die so that your people
may live?

Is it unloving to simply ask your people to seek what is best, what
is honorable, what is above all LOVE and put their faith, hope and 
trust there?

Finally, is it unloving to keep heaven pure and spotless and yourself
out of the presence of sin by not allowing entrance to those who desire
to live by their own rules and destroy what you have so that they may
fulfill their selfish desires at the expense of everyone else?

If this is unloving, then God is unloving.

Collis

    I agree with both Bill and Bob:
    
    >God does not send people to hell, people send them selfs there, 
    >by not believing in God and not putting there faith and trust in Christ. 
    
    Whatever hell is, we bring it on ourselves.
    
    To me "hell" is not a place but a *condition* of being willfully
    separated from God.  God remains ever willing to receive his straying
    children back, but he doesn't force anyone to be in union with him!
    Perhaps there comes a time when you can turn your back on God so
    completely and for so long that reconciliation is impossible - but not
    because God has willed it to be impossible or has prevented reconciliation.
    
    In this case, as I indicated earlier, you probably just "cease to be"
    because you are cut off from Life itself.  You would be *really* dead.
    
    Nancy

    Whatever hell is, those who go there suffer greatly.
    
    I don't know why, but I tend to see hell as Dante described it, even 
    though I know the  "Inferno" is  fiction.
    
    Peace
    Jim

Re: .38  Collis

>Is it unloving to reveal yourself to your people?

That's a confusing question.  God wouldn't have to "reveal" himself to anyone
if he hadn't hidden himself in the first place.  Why play these guessing games:
"believe in me or burn in hell forever"?

>Finally, is it unloving to keep heaven pure and spotless and yourself
>out of the presence of sin by not allowing entrance to those who desire
>to live by their own rules and destroy what you have so that they may
>fulfill their selfish desires at the expense of everyone else?

It depends on what happens to those who are denied entrance to heaven.  I am
also not convinced that those who Christianity would consign to hell (because
they don't accept Jesus as their savior) would "desire to live by their own
rules and destroy what [God has] so that they may fulfill their selfish
desires at the expense of everyone else".  According to (conservative)
Christianity, even the most unselfish person in the world would be sent to
hell if he or she did not believe in Jesus.  "Faith, not works", remember?

>If this is unloving, then God is unloving.

That's not what I believe.  A universe ruled by an unloving god would be too
horrible to contemplate.  I prefer to believe that either God does not exist
or that God is a god of love.  Therefore, I don't believe in the truth of
the Bible.

				-- Bob

Re:  203.41

  >Therefore, I don't believe in the truth of the Bible.

What you have written, you have written.  :-)

Collis

    Irrespective of what may happen in the afterlife, Hell is a
    psychological fact.  It is part of our heritage as humans.  
    Logic and wishful thinking won't change that.   Deny your heritage at
    a price - the price of wholeness.
    
    DR
    

    I tend to agree with those who equate "hell" with separation from God. 
    In that sense, then, hell exists among us in the here and now, among
    those who are spiritually hungry.  Furthermore, I believe that we
    create our own hells in the world around us; we need only look around
    us at the suffering of the poor, the hungry, and the oppressed to know
    that this is true.

    So while I view the doctrine of eternal damnation in "hell" as rather
    mythological concept (and inconsistent with my own views of a loving
    God), I am not averse to using the concept of "hell" in at least
    certain contexts.  But I am much more interested in eliminating the
    hells that we create in human society, in this world, than I am in
    any afterlife (if there is an afterlife).  Although, I must admit, it
    is fun to speculate.  :-)

    -- Mike

    
     Re.44
    
        Mike:
                 Spoken like a true Buddhist :-)
    
                                                    
                                                              Mike
    
    
                                   

    Well, Mike, we Quakers and Buddhists do have a lot in common.  :-)