Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

RE: 190.7, Mike, 
    
     I really enjoyed your note!  It's helpful to me to try to "translate" the
"faith-language" of others into my own.  Perhaps it's the inability to do
this that sometimes gets us into trouble.

>    Perhaps what Christians perceive as promptings of the Holy Sprit and 
> what Buddhists call thinking with the big mind are merely different 
> perceptions of the same thing.

And here, you're doing it, too!  :)

Incidentally, it's also helpful to find out what non-Christians don't believe
that Christians supposedly do believe.  I can often agree with their
non-belief!  There is a story about a conversation with an atheist.  When
the atheist explained why he didn't believe in God, the Christian said that
*he* didn't believe in *that* God, either!

>    We all get caught up in words and abstract concepts and miss what is
> important which is putting what we believe into practice. There are times
> when I feel that I do not understand much about Christianity when I read
> about it in books are read arguments in notes conferences.

I know what you mean.  Yet those studies and discussions help many of us
who are Christians to understand and refine the meaning of our
faith-experiences better.  I, for one, need language and a systematic
organization of that language to help me understand what I believe.  (Well, I
*am* in technical writing! :-) )  It's unfortunate -- tragic, in fact --
when the *_efforts_to_formulate_meaning_* result in stumbling blocks either to
others' faith or to communication with others *about* their faith.

And it's also tragic when I become so satisfied with a meaning that I
codify it and close down my mind and heart to new understandings.

> Then on the
> way home from work I'll see someone coming out of The Open Pantry with
> bags of groceries and their children in tow and think that I understand
> all that I'll ever need to know about it. 
     
 Amen!     
           
Toward sharing the understandings we have in common,
Nancy

    
              After reading 190 I felt that many nonchristians are not
    seeing christians as they really are.  I'm Southern Baptist, ok ok
    I hear the groans :^), and a pastor friend of mine once told me that
    churches were "for sinners only" and that perfect people need not
    apply.  Its kind of a flippent statement and yet there is a *LOT* of
    truth in it.  Too many times I hear people put Christians down for
    being too "holy" and thinking that they are better than anyone else.
    Nothing is further from the truth....in most cases....the *ONLY*
    difference between a non-christian and a "born again" Christian is the
    word "grace".  
    
    
    Dave 

    RE: .2 Dave
    
    >Too many times I hear people put Christians down for
    >being too "holy" and thinking that they are better than anyone else.
    >Nothing is further from the truth....in most cases....the *ONLY*
    >difference between a non-christian and a "born again" Christian is the
    >word "grace".  
    
    Hmmm....personally Dave I can't agree with this.  I do not call myself
    a Christian, but I do have a personal relationship with Christ.  From
    my perspective and experience, God's grace is given freely to all life, 
    all the time.  What do you base your above statement about 'grace' on?
    
    Carole

    Re.2

    Dave:
          I'll be the first to admit that I may not see Christians
    "as they really are", but I would like to think that I am managing
     to avoid putting Christians and Christianity down. 
          Perhaps you could get in on the discussion and help a non-
     Christian like myself gain a better understanding of what Christians
     are really like from your perspective. 

                                                               Mike

Mike,

I think a religion can be both very emotional and very logical at the
same time.  It is quite true that there is much emotion in Christians,
particularly in some branches of Christian worship.  But I think that
this in no way negates the tremendous amount (and I mean tremendous
amount) of logically study that goes on in the lives of many Christians
including those who attend formal theological training.

In fact, it is not the emotionalism that draws me to Jesus (which is
there, by the way), but rather it is the logic and truthfulness of
what the Scriptures teach.  I know I am not alone in this.  The proof
is there.  The body of Jesus is gone.  He is risen!  (Speaking a logical
fact with emotional emphasis.  :-) )

Collis

or, as Nancy's wonderful personal name stated, 

Passionate Commitment to Reasoned Faith.

(I always liked that line, Nancy!)

Peace,

Jim   (hey Collis, we agree! .-)

	Dave, I find a lot of truth in what you wrote. I also don't see it as
any sort of put down. All you said was the only difference between a
non-christian and a born again christian is the word grace. How could anyone
conceive this to be a put down? It's true that some people will always feel as
though they are better than anyone else, it just doesn't pertain to Born again
christians. I think every denomination is capable of doing this as we are all
human. It is strange though that you hear about this happening more with the
born again christian than any other denomination though. What humans can do to
a group is amazing, huh?


Glen

      Collis:

              Yup, no doubt about you can't have a one sided coin.
       And I'll agree with you that much serious, logical and very
       scholarly thought and research takes place within the Christian
       religion and in the lives of individual Christians. 
               However, I still think that faith and the emotion attendant
       with it are very much at the core of Christian belief. You may 
       disagree with this, but I don't think there is any amount of
       study, research or scholarship that will prove the existence
       of God or that Christ is indeed risen. Religion need not be and
       seldom is an affair of logic and reason. It is not mathematics
       or programming. Zen is certainly not logical as the term is 
       generally understood.
                 Collis, never has a person told me I could be saved
       by reason and logic, nor have I been told to seek God with all
       my scholarship and I'd be mighty surprised if they did. 
                 Yes, there is and probably be a balance between the
       two. No negation was intended, simply my view of a single 
       aspect of many that comprise Christianity.

                                                               Mike
                 

    RE: .3  Carole,
                      Your statement about having a relationship with
    Christ and not calling yourself a Christian puzzles me.  But since I am
    not you, I have to take that statement at face value.  I based my
    statement on the passage in Ephesians Ch. 2 vs 8 & 9:
    
           "  8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
    yourselves: it is a gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should
    boast. "
    
    
               The above passage say's a lot to me.  It tells me that God
    has a plan for me but it is for God to save by his grace, I can't
    "earn" it....I must only accept it.  I don't deserve it but it is given
    freely.  
    
    
    RE: .4  Mike,
       
                 I'm not sure how to answer you Mike, except to say that we
    are all human and being thus, we are subject to the same anger's,
    love's, hatred's, ect,ect.  Christians are not perfect, only that that
    lives within is.  Some Christians will tell you that they are "made
    perfect" thru Christ and they are right, the problem enter's into the
    picture when they believe that they are "living" perfect.  They never
    can....thus the reason God sent his Son.  When we condem others, we
    come under condemnation ourselves.
    
                    
    Dave

	I'm feeling a little uneasy about this string.

	190.0 is marked SRO (Supportive Responses Only).  This was done
deliberately to impede the impulse to defend one's own Christian faith
and doctrine, and also, to prevent disparaging remarks about non-Christian
religions.  Listening (active listening) occurs, I believe, only when one is
not busy erecting barricades.

	SO FAR in this string, I judge there has been a healthy and
worthwhile exchange.  Good.

	Having said that, I would like to interject that, personally, I
perceive Christianity to be a religion primarily, but far from exclusively,
of the heart.  It is filled with sentimentality and feeling.  There is nothing
wrong with that.  Really!

	At the same time, I don't believe followers of Christ are required
at any time to disengage their brains for any reason.  Christianity is certainly
not without its great analytical thinkers.

Peace,
Richard

    RE: .10  Richard
    
                        I will say to you, and thru you to *ALL* in this
    file that *NONE* of my statements were meant to hurt or anger.  If that
    has been the result, then I say, sincerely, I am sorry.
    
    
    Dave

    Re: .11
    
Dave,

Permit me to reiterate....

>	SO FAR in this string, I perceive there has been a healthy and
>worthwhile exchange.  Good.

8-}
    
Peace,
Richard

    RE: .9 Dave
    
    Thanks for your reply Dave.
    
    Your quote from Ephesians and your further explanation of your
    experience haven't really helped to answer my question from .3.
    
    I was curious about your stating that, basically, non-Christians
    do not receive God's grace.  Ephesian's does not say this.
    
    Regarding my relationship with Christ, I have a very different view
    of this relationship than Christians do.  I feel that the Christ
    Consciousness dwells within all of us, but in many of us is still
    'asleep'.  It doesn't matter whether one is a Christian or not.
    Purely MHO!
    
    Carole
    
    

    RE: .13  Carole,
                       Let me preface this with these are *MY* beliefs.  I
    am only trying to explain to you what they are. :) ok?
    
    
                  
                      In Romans 10:9 I read the following:  "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
    heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".
    
              * This passage coupled with the Ephesians passage tells me
    that, indeed, it is a gift but it must be accepted.  Now, thru these 
    conditions and having met each requirement, I feel that I am saved. 
    Your question seems to be asking me if I think you are.  I do not know!
    Your salvation is between you and God and I'll not set myself up as a
    judge.  You, between these two passages, have heard what I believe you
    have to do in order to be saved.  Thats NOT a judgement, only what *I*
    believe.
    
    Dave

    RE.13   Carole,
    
                      In my .14 I don't think I "fully" answered you
    questions.
    
    >Regarding my relationship with Christ, I have a very different view
    >of this relationship than Christians do. I feel that the Christ 
    >consciousness dwells within all of us, but in many of us is still
    >'alseep'.  It doesn't matter whether one is Christian or not.
    
            Very interesting thought, Carole, and there are *MANY* who
    agree with you.  There is even some evidence to support it.  To tell
    you the truth...I am not sure of it.  I do know that when I saw God in my
    acceptence of him, that I did recognize that he was God.
    
    
    Dave

    Carole,

    Your comment about the Christ consciousness residing in everyone is
    very similar to the Quaker belief in the Inner Light residing in
    everyone.  Although I am not a Christian, most Quakers are--so I don't
    think that your views are inconsistent with Christianity.

    -- Mike

    Carole and Mike:

        The belief of Christ Consciousness and the Inner Light are
       also very much the same as the Buddhist teaching that all
       beings possess the Buddha nature.


                                                               Mike

       

    Re: .17
    
    	The last few are rapidly approaching the thread of mystical
    experience which appears almost universally, though not in great measure,
    among religious people, and occasionally even among unreligious people.
    
    Richard

    
    RE: .14 and .15
    
    Dave, I appreciate your responses and accept your perspective on
    this subject.  What I get from your responses is that you connect
    being saved and receiving grace.  I don't embrace the concept of
    'being saved', however I have received grace and feel that it is
    available for everyone....we can open our hearts and consciously
    receive it.  Sometimes people receive grace and don't even know
    that's what it was!
    
    Carole

    Carole,
    
                 Your .19 is very interesting....My wife went thru the 
    same thing.  She *always* felt God working in her life and felt that
    she was "saved".  During a Church service, she felt this overwhelming
    compulsion to "walk" the isle and confess her belief in front of
    the whole service and after doing so, her mental anguish ended...it had
    been bothering her for several months.
    
    
    Dave