Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

	I sense something unique about being in community.  I feel a sense of
supportiveness in community, even though my perspective may not be congruent
with many or even most of the community's members.  In community, I feel
wanted, but not for anything I might be able to do or to provide.  In
community, I am accepted simultaneously as a sinner, a seeker, and a saint.

Peace,
Richard

    
    It's powerful, sometimes scary, stuff!
    
    I remember a special women's meeting, ending in a circle holding hands.
    It had been so beautiful and so meaningful, and it seemed to be the
    perfect moment to look at each other across that circle and personally
    thank those women who had put so much of themselves and their faith into it.
    
    But then the leader prayed and thanked God!! And I had the
    overwhelmingly sad realization that we often use things like prayer to
    prevent our fellowship and communion with each other!!  
    
    Of *course* I believe in thanking God, and of *course* I know that
    God provides all we are and have, and thus enables us to do things like
    plan and lead that special event!
    
    But *I* needed to have that direct interaction with the women
    themselves ... and that holy moment was stolen -- by a prayer.
    
    I think that feeling of closeness to other human beings scares us, and
    we often protect ourselves by focusing our feelings on God.

    I have witnessed what you are talking about on occasion.  It
    neutralized all the energy that had built up.  Too bad talking to
    God is not delayed sometimes, in favor of corporately experiencing
    the refreshment of the Living Waters and the embrace of one another.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    One aspect of christians in churches or groups or fellowships or...
    that covers a wide enough area... is the 'club' or 'greenhouse' effect.
    They seem to become the 'holy huddle', protecting themselves from
    outside influence (the rest of the world is lost, therefore satanic,
    therefore bad), and becoming very insular.
    
    This club mentality soon starts spouting some very unrealistic ideas,
    not countered by outside influences. It's this aspect of christians and
    christianity itself I find disturbing - the rejection of external
    wisdom is the worst.
    
    Like the time when I was told I shouldn't seek counselling incase I was
    led astray. It was only when I _did_ seek counselling I found out how
    much I had been led astray by the very people who warned me about not
    being led astray... |*}

Thank you, Nancy, for saying that.  It's so true.
I participate in several anonymous meetings, which usually close with a prayer 
circle, ... but after that comes hugs! .-)

The pastor who served at church when I started attending there was a terrific 
hugger.  (He was also genuinely loving and caring and lots of other good 
stuff).  The pasor we have now shakes hands.  Sometimes that's just not 
enough.

Peace, and ((hugs)),

Jim

    
    
    Excellent insight Nancy!
    
    Carole

                          -< hug: a physical prayer >-

    
    Cross-posted with permission from Cindy, who says she is "still 3000 notes
    behind."  Thanks, Cindy!    
    
    I am dividing this into two parts because it is long.  Here is Part 1:
    
    
    
               <<< IOSG::LIB0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 858.52                         BREAK-OUT                           52 of 53
CGVAX2::PAINTER "Pray for peace, people everywhere." 94 lines   5-JAN-1989 22:37
                     -< Example to illustrate further .51 >-
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Excerpts from "The Different Drum", by M.Scott Peck, M.D., 1987
===============================================================

From Chapter IX - Patterns of Transformation, pp.186-200
--------------------------------------------------------

The key to community is the acceptance - in fact, the celebration - of 
our individual and cultural differences.  Such acceptance and 
celebration - which resolves the problem of pluralism and which can 
occur only after we learn to become empty (of intolerances) - is also 
the key to world peace.  

...We may not like people because of these flaws or immaturities, but
the further we ourselves grow, the more we become able to accept - to
love - them, flaws and all.  Christ's commandment is not to like one
another; it is to 'love' one another. 

Like community itself, that love is not easy to muster.  It is a part 
of the journey of the spirit.  If that journey is not understood it 
can be a major factor in driving us human beings even further apart.  
The knowledge of its principles, however, can do much to bring us 
together in peace.

THE STAGES OF SPIRITUAL GROWTH

...With that realization came another: there is a pattern of progression 
through identifiable stages in human spiritual life. .....But here I will 
talk about those stages only in general, for individuals are unique and do 
not always fit neatly into any psychological or spiritual pigeonhole.

With that caveat, let me list my own understanding of these stages and the 
names I have chosen to give them:

	STAGE I   - Chaotic, antisocial (lack of integrity, evil)
	STAGE II  - Formal, institutional, (fundamentalist)
	STAGE III - Skeptic, individual (atheist/agnostic)
	STAGE IV  - Mystic, communal" (New Age, etc.)

A true community will likely include people of _all_ stages.  
With this understanding, it is possible for people in different stages 
to transcend the sense of threat that divides them and to become a 
true community.
    
    continued ->

    Part 2, cross-posted with permission from Cindy:
    
    
               <<< IOSG::LIB0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 858.52                         BREAK-OUT                           52 of 53
CGVAX2::PAINTER "Pray for peace, people everywhere." 94 lines   5-JAN-1989 22:37
                     -< Example to illustrate further .51 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Excerpts from "The Different Drum", by M.Scott Peck, M.D., 1987
===============================================================

From Chapter IX - Patterns of Transformation, pp.186-200
--------------------------------------------------------
    ...

STORY OF A COMMUNITY-BUILDING WORKSHOP

In my experience the most dramatic example of this possibility 
occurred in a relatively small community-building group I led several 
years ago.  To this two-day group of twenty-five, there came ten 
fundamentalist Stage II Christians, five Stage III atheists with their 
own guru - a brilliant, highly rationalized trial lawyer - and ten 
Stage IV mystical Christians.  There were moments I despaired that we 
would ever make it into community.  

   	    [Below is the best paragraph of all - CP]

The fundamentalists were furious that I, their supposed leader, smoked
and drank and vigorously attempted to heal me of my hypocrisy and
addiction.  The mystics equally vigorously challenged the
fundamentalists' sexism, intolerance, and other forms of rigidity. 
Both of course were utterly dedicated to converting the atheists.  The
atheists in turn sneered at the arrogance of us Christians in even
daring to think that we had gotten hold of some kind of truth.  (;^)

Nonetheless, after approximately twelve hours of the most intense
struggle together to empty ourselves of our intolerances, we became
able to let one another be, each in his or her own stage.  And we
became a community.  But we could not have done so without the
cognitive awareness of the different stages of spiritual development
and the realization that we were not all "in the same place,", and
that it was literally all right. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My experience suggests that this progression of spiritual development 
holds true in all cultures and for all religions.  Indeed, one of the 
things that seems to characterize all the great religions - 
Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism - is their 
capacity to speak to people in both Stage II and Stage IV.  In fact, I 
suspect this is why they are great religions.  It is as if the words 
of each had two different translations.  

Let us take a Christian example: "Jesus is my savior."  At Stage II
this is often translated into a Jesus who is a kind of fairy godmother
who will rescue me whenever I get in trouble as long as I remember to
call upon his name. And that's true.  He will do just that.  At Stage
IV "Jesus is my savior" is translated as "Jesus, through his life and
death, taught me the way I must follow for my salvation."  Which is
also true.  Two totally different translations, two totally different
meanings, but both of them true. 

"It is also important to remember that no matter how far we develop 
spiritually, we retain in ourselves vestiges of the previous stages 
through which we have come...  

Re: .9

Pete,

Some collectivities do seem to be more "ingrown" than others.  Some
groups who claim the name 'Christian' do manipulate lives.  There are
lots of horror stories about such abuses.  The most highly publicized
instance in the last couple dozen years that comes to mind is that of
Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple.

Personally, I am wary of any group which attempts to curb independent
inquiry or to exert control over its members' leisure time and social life.

Peace,
Richard

	I particularly enjoy the time after the benediction and after the
postlude when people pause and chat awhile before departing.  This time
of hugging and greeting one another is, to me, the dessert of the love feast.

Peace,
Richard

1261.20

>    It did not occur to me how strong your disregard for each other was.

No surprise here.  What perplexes me is that even when they realize this
themselves, they still prefer to stand with each other.

Richard

    Richard:
    
    So you are equating fellowship with stand on incidental doctrinal
    issues?  See 2nd Thessolonians 3 as it touches on the matter of
    likemindedness.  
    
 Z   What perplexes me is that even when they realize this
 Z   themselves, they still prefer to stand with each other.
    
    Why would this be such a surprise?  The core of fundamentalists here
    stand on the belief that Christ died, rose, and brought redemption upon
    those who believe.  Why shouldn't believers do this?
    
    -Jack

    I was thinking about this over the weekend.  I thought maybe I should
    just ignore the doctrinal differences and share with everyone in other
    areas such as how we worship, how we praise, what type of music do you
    have in your church, how do you minister and serve the Lord, what sort
    of activities does your church use for fellowship, etc.  
    
    It was then that I realized the doctrine and God's Word is the basis, the 
    very core, from which everything else flows.  If we can't agree on a
    baseline from which to measure things, we can't agree on anything. 
    When you are sick, you know it because the baseline is when you are
    healthy.  You know what it means to feel good and be healthy so you
    know sickness when it comes.  
    
    Since we mostly discuss doctrine in here, I can somewhat see now why
    others feel we worship a book.  The fact is that it is our baseline
    from which to measure our spiritual walk.  We don't worship a book.  We
    worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob who gave us this book to
    teach us and help us measure where we are in relation to His will for
    our lives.  
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 195.14 by PHXSS1::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| When you are sick, you know it because the baseline is when you are healthy.  
| You know what it means to feel good and be healthy so you know sickness when 
| it comes.

	And for each person, what is sick for one is not for another. There are
people who have alergies. For some it can keep them from doing something. For
others with the same level alergy(ies), they may view it differently and it may
not bother them. So what you wrote above does seem to hold true for something
though. How the Bible is interpreted. What is good for one, doesn't really hold
true for all. 

| We don't worship a book.  

	Let's put this to a test. If someone believes in Him, but doesn't hold
the book to be inerrant, will that person be getting into Heaven? 

	If you say yes/no, please explain why. 

>	Let's put this to a test. If someone believes in Him, but doesn't hold
>the book to be inerrant, will that person be getting into Heaven? 
    
    Is the believer born again?
    
    Nobody can get closer than Judas.  He believed, knew the scriptures,
    yet wasn't born again.
    
    Satan showed he knew the scriptures when testing Jesus Christ.  Satan
    and his demons also believe, but they aren't born again.
    
    James 2:19  
    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also
     believe, and tremble.

| <<< Note 195.16 by PHXSS1::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| >	Let's put this to a test. If someone believes in Him, but doesn't hold
| >the book to be inerrant, will that person be getting into Heaven?

| Is the believer born again?



	Yes.

  By who's standard, Glen?  Yours?  your neighbors?  Fellow noters?  Jerry
 Falwell?  Who's standards are used to determine who is and who is not
 born again, and who's are right and how do you know?  This is important
 Glen, because your and my eternity depend on it..



 Jim