Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Richard,
    	seriously ?  Christ did admonish us to be humble, yet few of those
    who would be our leaders are ever that. It is difficult at best for a
    humble man to present himself as a minister - a font of wisdom and
    guidance, a good example to one and all. How could a humble person
    decide to apply for a job that would require such excellence ?  A
    humble person could not, by definition, believe that they contained the
    required excellence for the job. The same is true of those with the
    presumption to preach door-to-door. They not only claim to be paragons
    to be emulated but accuse those they lecture - by the very nature of
    that sermon alone - of being of lesser moral stature.
    	No, Richard, I don't think many Christians have learned this lesson
    at all well. To make my accusation personal, much of the heated
    argument in this file would not be possible were we (we who dispute) a
    lot more humble than we in fact are. This coming from one who has
    debated with relish and is hardly a beacon of humility.

| seriously ?  Christ did admonish us to be humble, yet few of those
| who would be our leaders are ever that. It is difficult at best for a
| humble man to present himself as a minister - a font of wisdom and
| guidance, a good example to one and all. How could a humble person
| decide to apply for a job that would require such excellence ?  

	Let's take an example. Have you ever worked for a manager who was far
from humble? I have. They really aren't a lot of fun. They end up taking all
the credit for work others did. Now, you come across a humble boss, and they
praise their employees. Not just to the employees themselves, but to the world.
It's the same thing that we do when Christ helps us out of a jam. We know who
did it, and if we're humble, we give credit to where credit is due. If someone
makes a big deal because we helped them, don't we just say it was nothing? I
was glad to help? Humility is something that does need to be worked on. It's
something we all could use more of. But, unless we ask God to help us, then we
are more than likely to not get anywhere. If God will help us, why wouldn't He
help out a minister? 

	As far as how could someone apply for a job that requires such
excellence goes, I can't see your point on this. I would imagine that the
person who is applying for the job is probably doing so because they want to
help the community in any way they can. To have confidence that you can help a
community and boasting that I will do this community great things are two
different things. One is just someone feels they can help and are willing to do
so regardless of how many problems come up, while the other one is telling the
community he can do well! I really think you are confusing being confident with
humility. They are 2 different things.

| A
| humble person could not, by definition, believe that they contained the
| required excellence for the job. 

	No one is asking for a world of people who don't have the confidence in
themselves to try to help someone. They have been trained in manyareas for this
and now are out to help. With the Lords guidance they will hopefully succeed. 
They aren't doing this on their own, but with GOD's HELP! 

| The same is true of those with the
| presumption to preach door-to-door. They not only claim to be paragons
| to be emulated but accuse those they lecture - by the very nature of
| that sermon alone - of being of lesser moral stature.

	They also don't go door to door blind. One would have to believe that 
they ask the Lord to help them with what they are doing before they go to the
house. So, I guess if they aren't asking for God's grace on them before they
preach, then they're not being humble. Otherwise, why aren't they (in both
instances you've mentioned)?

| No, Richard, I don't think many Christians have learned this lesson
| at all well. To make my accusation personal, much of the heated
| argument in this file would not be possible were we (we who dispute) a
| lot more humble than we in fact are. This coming from one who has
| debated with relish and is hardly a beacon of humility.

	My, we certainly aren't being too humble right now, are we? Try to
remember one thing, people will have questions. People will either like or
disagree with what others have to say about the answers. You can't come to a
conclusion without dialog. I'm sorry, maybe one should learn the real meaning
of humility before one spouts off? Hmmmmm... maybe!


Glen

Hi,

One thing that helps me a lot in learning humility is understanding what the 
term means.

I don't take "humble" to be self-debasing or to always be focusing on my
shortcomings.  I take the term to be more akin to self-honesty and self-
acceptance.  (Also, not-taking-oneself-TOO-seriously.)   

The best pastor I've known was quite a humble man.  Advice?  Yes he gave me 
advice at times, but his greatest strength was to walk along with me, being 
with me when I stumbled, helping me pick up the pieces and start again.  He 
was no paragon of virtue, how frightening and intimidating that would be to 
me!  No, he was human like me.  Like Jesus, he met me where I was, shared his 
strength, shared his weakness, his hopes and fears, and that was much more 
powerful for me than any "paragon of virtue" would have been telling me 
exactly what to do and making sure I got it right.

Peace,

Jim

Humility.

Best represented by Jesus Christ.

Moses was called the humblest human being on the earth - and I accept
that Moses himself wrote that!

No, humility is badly misunderstood in our culture.  It is not to deny
who you are, but to embrace *fully* who you are, recognizing the
permeating sin and absolute need for God.  Once we position ourselves
appropriately, the opposite of humility is clearly seen for what it
is - false pride and boasting - since we have nothing to boast about
except our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Collis

    The best definition of humility I have ever heard is "teachability".
    
    You can believe in a Truth, yet still keep your mind open to the
    possibility that you don't quite understand the real Truth, or that you
    don't know all of it.  To me, that is humility.
    
    E Grace

    At the moment I forget where I read it, but it was either in Matthew
    Fox's book _Original Blessing_ or in Rocco Errico's Aramaic
    transliterations of early biblical texts...
    
    Humble was understood quite differently in Jesus' time as it is today. 
    Two thousand years ago, a humble person was one "who lived close close
    to the earth" meaning one who had respect and reverence for, not only
    his or her fellow human beings, but of the earth and all her kingdom/
    queendoms of life which we share and (imo) should care for together.
    
    This is the definition I accept for humble/humility and I endeavor to 
    live it as fully as possible.
    
    Karen

    Does humility require low self-esteem?
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    
    Re. .7
    
    	NO

    RE: .7 To elaborate somewhat on the comment in .8, I think that
    a healthy (ie good, fairly high) self esteem is required for
    humility. At least in the terms I think of as a Christian should
    be. A humble person knows that they are of value and has an accurate
    view of there relationship with God. I person with low self esteem is
    not being humble rather they are placing too low a value on themselves.
    Thus they do not show humility rather they present themselves as
    less worthy then they are. This shows disrespect of themselves, God's
    creation, and disrespect to God who expects a "worthy" sacrifice.

    A person who feels that they have no value shows no honor to those
    them humble themselves before because after all if you are low in
    your own eyes it makes no meaningful statement to say that someone
    (God for example) is better or higher.

    			Alfred

    Very well said Alfred.  Thanks.  Healthy self esteem *is* required 
    for true humility.
    
    Karen

    I am reminded of don Juan, whom (or at least the idea of whom) I have
    loved.
    
    Humility is NOT-DOING, especially NOT-DOING power.  Not-doing anything
    calls forth the next order, which in its turn must somehow be not-done
    after it's been experienced and suffered.
    
    A warrior does what s/he must, at whatever level s/he must, always knowing
    that it is nothing.  
    
    DR
    
    

Extracts from the article "Cuomo Vadis?" (subtitled The Confessions of St.
Mario) by Sidney Blumenthal in _The New Republic_, 5/6/91, with my comments
in brackets.

	"Jewish guilt runs a very distant second to old-fashioned Catholic
	guilt," he [Cuomo] says.  "I was raised with the specter of sin,
	damnation, and selfishness as the ultimate sin.  The whole idea
	theologically was to deny yourself.  Ambition was a sin.  There is
	in all of us in that generation an unwillingness to accept the
	importance of self.  I should run to my mother and say, I'm
	running for president? Every time I think of that as a possible
	motive I run in the other direction."

	  Temporal success, he suggests, is never for him the measure of
	success.  "You can do things that are absolutely right and even
	noble and be condemned," he says.  "You can do things absolutely
	ignoble, absolutely wrong, and be cheered.  So there is no
	relationship between the nation saying you should be our leader
	and your own good performance... That is my belief.  It could be
	naive."  Or it could be false modesty, a modesty that is part of
	the impressive performance of appearing to commune with higher
	spirits.

[Have we become so jaded now that when a politician says he wants to do
what's right he's accused of putting on an act?  Cuomo is saying that true
success means following your conscience and doing what you know is right
rather than pandering to the crowd.  I find that a refreshing point of view
in this age of sound bites.]

	  Cuomo thinks about his ambition by reflecting on the lives of
	secular saints.  These icons are for him masks and ideals --
	projections of his own ambiguities and tensions.  One of his
	saints is Thomas More, the martyr.  Another is Lincoln.  "I love
	Lincoln," says Cuomo.  "He was fallible, inconstant, sometimes
	self-indulgent, wrong, afraid, confused, beset by all the
	temporalities, just like Cuomo and everyone I know.  He wasn't a
	superman, not a myth, but a real person." ... "Ambition?" Cuomo
	asks rhetorically.  "Lincoln wanted to achieve in his own life,
	but it's hard for me to believe that it was just egocentric."

	  Cuomo's moral pride -- his moral vanity, really -- makes him
	cloak his own ambition in a holy rainment.

[It sounds like Mario can't win, according to Blumenthal -- either he's
guilty of ambition or he's guilty of "moral vanity".]

	Only if defeat seems all but certain can the purity of a
	candidate's motives be placed beyond question.  By seeking an
	office others believe can't be won -- the presidency in 1992 -- he
	would keep his motives unassailable, especially in failure.

[I doubt this.  If Cuomo ran and lost people would say it showed what a
high opinion he had of himself, that he thought he could succeed even though
everyone else predicted failure.

The moral: even if you try to be modest, no one will believe you.]

				-- Bob