Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    To me holiness is the heart of the Christian's practical life in this 
    world.  Holiness is the every day working out of a life given to God.
    It is in holiness that we are to grow once we are converted.  I fear 
    that many Christians today are so caught up leading people to salvation
    that they miss the concept of holiness.  
    
    The implications of holiness, ie. living out a holy life, are joy,
    peace, assurance, and a cross to bare.  There is no fuller joy in
    a person's life than to be living a holy life.  There is peace which
    passes all understanding.  There is assurance that when we die we will
    see Christ.  Yet, there is a cross to bare.  For to live a holy life
    will mean that others will persecute you as they did Christ.  If you
    live a holy life others will then see their on sinfulness and they will
    react in one of two ways.  They will be converted, or they will hate
    you.   They hated Christ and if you become Christlike (Christian) you 
    will be hated too.
    
    Will you bare the cross?
    
    
    
                               In Christ,
                                          Marshall

    Marshall, why would you want a naked cross ?  8-D

I would agree with Marshall for the most part here.

At the same time I would add that there is typically something
"set apart" or "different" which marks a holy life.  Not everyone
can willingly pick up that cross daily and follow Christ.

It sometimes takes others to show us how it is done.

    Peace,
    Richard

    I agree with Marshall; that was very nicely put, in fact.
    
    That initial conversion experience which turns us to Christ is only
    the beginning of what should be a life in which we now cooperate
    with the Holy Spirit in further 'conversions'. Once we know that
    Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, it seems that we should
    hunger to be more like him; and if we seek and are open to the Spirit
    we will grow in holiness.
    
    The Catholic Saints are valued so much because they help us to see
    "how it's done" and help us understand what it means to lay down the
    self to take up Christ.
    
    After initial Christian conversion, it is necessary to separate from
    the world because we are no longer of the world; it is inappropriate to
    'convert' and consider that nothing needs to change. Why would there be
    a need for conversion unless it brought about a change towards Truth
    and Life?
    
    The Holy Spirit is always active in the Christian life to work this
    purification; what follows is probably a lifetime of little
    surrenderings of self so the Spirit can create us anew in Christ.
    It is possible to close off areas of oneself or to "hold back" and
    retain parts of the old self and God will respect our free will on
    this; unfortunatly, this does not lead to holiness.
    
    All Christians are called to holiness. In my opinion, it takes a good
    and consistant prayer, an openness to the Spirit, humility before God,
    a willingness to surrender self, and trust in God's goodness and Lord-
    ship to grow in holiness.
    
    We can't do it ourselves, but God will provide all the grace we need
    and will direct our path if we 'seek first his kingdom' and remain
    open to the Spirit.
    
    Satan feeds us lies all the time that try to discourage us from laying
    down the self or parts of our lives. He tries to make us feel like
    we'll be empty, lonely, alone, enpoverished, or lacking somehow if
    we surrender to the Spirit. It is important to remember and believe
    God's promises that He will fill us us equal measure and overflowing
    for anything we sacrifice for His sake. This is true not only in the
    afterlife, but also in this life we currently live.
      
    The path of holiness is a path of joy, even in the midst of trials
    and crosses because Christ becomes more and more present in our
    lives the more completely we surrender.
    
    Peace,
       Mary
    
     
    
    

    Marshall and Richard,
    
    While I don't exactly disagree with what either of you has said, it
    would be easy to jump from your comments to the idea that holiness or
    the holy life is really only available to those who have the luxury of
    spare time.  The mother who fulfills the traditional caretaking role
    in a large family, who visits new or ill neighbors with a cake or
    casserole, and who often is the backbone of her church -- she, too,
    may qualify.  So also might the DEC employee who takes the time to
    listen to the problems of co-workers -- while still getting his/her
    own work done.
    
    Surely it is at least as difficult -- if not more so --
    to live a holy life among the mundane duties of daily commitments to
    earning a living or maintaining and nourishing a family and community.
    Such "workers" may not recognize the crosses they bear as being
    anything more than expected... and perhaps therein lies their holiness.

Nancy,

	Your point is well taken.  I don't mean to imply that one's
life needs to be extraordinary in order be holy (although I suspect
it would be easier to maintain a holy life if it were).

	I believe there are many lives lived out in quiet holiness;
people reflecting the caring presence of God in seemingly undramatic,
yet undeniably vital ways; discreet apostles.

>    Such "workers" may not recognize the crosses they bear as being
>    anything more than expected... and perhaps therein lies their holiness.

	This reminded me of Luke 17:7-10.

Pax,
Richard

I find a lot to agree with from everyone here.  (Wonders never cease!)

Mary reminded me of an Anglican hymn, (a *very* Brrritish one) about the 
saints of God, "you can find them at work, on the train, or at tea..."
(that's pretty close, anyway.)

In a study group once, our pastor at the time was teaching about the people 
that several denominations recognize as "Saints".  Instead of talking about 
the miracles and wonders, he told us about the mundane lives, the foul 
tempers, the financial problems, the terrible setbacks so many suffered, yet 
they kept their focus on God and kept limping along.  THAT was what made them 
saints.

As Richard says, there *is* something different about living a holy life.
As Nancy says, that "difference" might be as mundane as supporting a family.

I had a party a while ago.  In one room was a person who'd been out of work 
for nine months, a person who was in the process of divorce, a person who 
recently lost a spouse to cancer, a person who was to receive open heart 
surgery the next week, a person who has had crippling arthritis since the age 
of four...and on and on and on...so many crosses being borne, but the love,
joy, and thankfulness for life was overwhelming, I was surrounded by saints! 

As I learn to give and receive love more, I find that I don't know a single 
person who has not lived an absolutely extraordinary life!  

Peace,

Jim

    Someone once spoke in my Quaker meeting about this.  S/He (I can't
    remember) said "If Jesus loved the Apostles, an unloveable, unruly
    bunch at best, *why* on earth would you be considered less than
    loveable by him?"  
    
    I think this goes along with this string.  I think everyone lives their
    holiness differently, because all of us are unique.  We have different
    talents, different languages, different forms of worship, different
    lives.  
    
    If I am living my life as *I* *honestly* *believe* God wants me to live
    it, then I believe I am living a holy life.  However, that doesn't mean
    I am being perfect.  Oops, sorry, wrong string!  (*8
    
    
    E Grace