Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

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Note 496.0         MEDUGORJE MESSENGERS N.E. MARIAN CONFERENCE         2 replies
SMEGIT::CRETEAU                                      32 lines  16-JAN-1991 11:41
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    MEDUGORJE MESENGERS
    NEW ENGLAND MARIAN CONFERENCE
    THE WORCESTER AUDITORIUM, WORCESTER, MA + FEBRUARY 22-23 1991
    
    YOUTH DAY RALLY FRIDAY, 9 A.M. - 4 P.M  FREE FOR YOUTH (and if
    accompanied by adult, the adult is free) (NO SCHOOL IN MASS. ON THIS
    DAY)
    
    OPENING CONFERENCE FRIDAY EVE 6 P.M. - 11 P.M.  AND ALL DAY SATURDAY 
    8 A.M. - 11 P.M.  $15 YOUTH  -  $25 ADULTS        
    
    FAMILIES - $65 (INCLUDES WHOLE PROGRAM REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY MEMBERS) 
    
    PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS: NO CHARGE
    
    Special guest speakers are: Fr. Ljudevit Rupcic, Rita Klaus, Sr.
    Margaret Sims (spiritual director of Medugorje Messengers) visonary
    Ivan Dragivevic and Sister Janja Boras, interpreter and a special group
    of musicians.
    
    MONEY MUST BE RECIEVED BY 2/11/91
    Make checks payable to:
    Medugorje Messengers Conference
    P.O. Box 647
    Framingham, MA 01701
    
    For any further information call Medugorje Messengers 1-508-879-9318
    or FAX 1-508-879-9393
    (Anyone unable to pay may call the above numbers)
    
    
                                                

    I am reminded of Carl Jung, who considered the Roman Catholic doctrine
    about Mary promulgated in the early '50s (not sure what - maybe the
    Assumption?) to be perhaps the single most important event of the 20th
    century.  
    
    Rainer-Maria Rilke's poems about Mary are among my favorites. 
    
    DR

    Fwiw,
    
    What impresses me strongly about the Mary apparitions are the 
    implications around the integral role of the feminine/women in 
    Christianity. 
    
    I wonder why reported apparations are always of Mary.  A rhetorical
    question I know, but I sometimes wonder why the male disciples 
    of early Christianity are never reported as being seen in apparitions.
    
    Karen  

re:3
    Hi Karen,
    
>    I wonder why reported apparations are always of Mary.  A rhetorical
>    question I know, but I sometimes wonder why the male disciples 
>    of early Christianity are never reported as being seen in apparitions.
    
    Well, maybe it's because she is the only Christian ever taken 
    body and soul into heaven, which would enable her to return to earth
    like Jesus, Elijah and Moses.  Of course this is based on my Catholic
    belief in the Assumption. 

    Peace
    Jim

    There is a book entitled Fatimah Prophesies channeled through one Ray
    Stanford, which provides fascinating reading about apparitions in
    Fatimah, Megudore (?) and Cairo.  I believe I can obtain a copy for
    anyone who is interested.  
    
    re:  Why only Mary, I think the apparitions in Cairo were of Mary,
    Joseph and the Babe.  
    
    DR

    Thanks Jim (.4),
    
    If what you say is true, that makes me wonder what Moses and Elijah are 
    up to these days.... Why are there no reported apparitions of them?  
    Does Mary head up the 'task group' of providing inspiration and vision 
    to Christians these days perhaps?
    
    Karen

    RE;6
    Karen,
          er...um ? Perhaps Moses and Elijah are retired ?-:)

    I don't know, but it probably has to do with her relationship to
    Jesus, and her relationship to us. After all, she was not only an
    eyewitness to our salvation, but a participant as well. 
    In every apparition, her message is for us to give ourselves to Jesus.
    
    Who knew Jesus better than His own mother ?


    Peace
    Jim

Why Mary?

The Catholic Church considers Mary our Mother; although a person, she is also
seen as a 'type' of the Church in Christ's glory. There are many other 
symbolic associations with Mary : Ark of the Covenant, Zion, the City of God,
and New Jerusalem to name the most common.. She is more intimatly associated 
with both Jesus and his Church which is considered the Mystical Body of 
Christ. Mary becomes Mother of both.

She is seen in both GEN 3:15 and REV 12 as the woman (Mary/Church) who
has full emnity against Satan and who does battle with him throughout
all time (through the Alpha (Genesis) to the Omega (Revelation) until
the Second Coming of Christ.

Several Catholic mystics down through the ages of the Church have made
prophecies about a Marian age in the last days when God will call an
army of saints through the Blessed Virgin to oppose the enemy of God
(Satan) in spiritual battle. The writings of St. Louis de Montfort's
"True Devotion to Mary (or the Blessed Virgin Mary)" gives one such
prophesy. At least one vision of St. John Bosco also identifies a 
special role to Mary in the guidance of the Church.

As mentioned, the messages of Mary's apparitions all concern our need
to give ourselves to Jesus and the spiritual guidance to do this. She
re-emphasizes the Gospel messages and bring's God's graces to the Church.
Through this continually deepening conversion of our lives to Christ
we are better able to hear and heed the Holy Spirit and the more armour
of Christ we are able to 'put on' for the battle against Satan.

It is important to consider that her apparitions are allowed by God
for serious reasons; the eternal life or death of souls is at stake.

Apparitions of Mary have probably occured throughout the history of
Christianity; in modern times they begin in the mid-1500's in Mexico 
when she appeared as Our Lady of Guadalupe. In the next 400 years,
she appeared briefly a number of times; the total number of reported
'public' apparitions probably numbered less than 100.

At this point in time, Our Lady has appeared to the Medjugorje 
visionaries daily for 9.5 years which is nearly 3,500 apparitions!
There are all kinds of indirect indications that the 'last days'
are indeed upon us; this period of God's grace and mercy is for our
benefit.

Peace,

Mary

    Re.3  
    
    Hi Karen,
    
        About your comment concerning the feminine element in Christianity,
    I would have to say that it is even more pronounced in the Roman
    Catholic Church. When I was considering which way to go, Protestant or
    Catholic, the Catholic sense of 'family' made some difference. Although
    I had been a brief and VERY nominal Catholic in my youth before leaving
    the church for about 14 years, the very real warmth of Mary never
    entirely left and was there to welcome me back. The Catholic concept
    of Saints, too, has helped me to understand the true concepts of Church
    and of God's love.
    
        I can't recall hearing of any 'public' apparition of any Saint
    without Mary also being present. At Fatima, during the last apparition
    of Mary to Lucy I believe Jesus as a man and St. Joseph also appeared
    with Mary. At the apparition of Mary in Knock, Ireland, St. John the
    Baptist and St. Joseph also appeared. During several of Mary's
    apparitions she has appeared holding the Baby Jesus or with the Child
    Jesus. Occasionally she is accompanied by angels.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mary
    

    re.4
    
    Hi DR,
    
        I don't know anything about Carl Jung's interest in Mary and I
    have not read any poetry by Rainer-Marie Rilke about Mary. I would
    be interested in finding out more about both; do you have any 
    references and/or could you post some short text/poem here?
    
    Mary
    

    The following is transcribed from the poetry of Rainer Maria Rilke
    translated by M.D. Herter Norton, available from W.W. Norton & Co.
    
    The whole set is truly moving.
    
    DR

                              BIRTH OF MARY
        
        O what must it have cost the angels
        not suddenly to burst into song, as one bursts into tears,
        since indeed they knew; on this night the mother is being 
        born to the boy, the One, who shall soon appear.
        
        Soaring they held themselves silent and showed the direction
        where, alone, Joachim's farm lay;
        ah, they felt in themselves and in space the pure precipitation,
        but none might go down to him.
        
        For the two were already quite beside themselves with ado.
        A neighbor-woman came and played wise and did not know how,
        and the old man, carefully, went and withheld the mooing
        of a dark cow.  For so it had never yet been.
        
                      THE PRESENTATION OF MARY IN THE TEMPLE
        
        To understand what she was like at that time,
        you must first summon yourself to a place
        where columns work in you; where you can follow
        the feel of steps; where arches full of danger
        bridge over the chasm of a space
        that stayed in you because it was piled up
        of such pieces, you can no longer lift them
        out of you, lest you tear yourself down in ruins.
        When you have got so far that all in you is stone,
        wall, stairway, perspective, vaulting --, then try
        with both hands to drag away a little
        the great curtain that you have before you:
        A radiance shines out frm very high things
        and overpowers your breath and touch.
        Upward, downward, palace looks on palace,
        balustrades stream broader out of balustrades
        and reappear above along such edges
        that, as you see them, dizziness grips you.
        Meanwhile a cloud of haze from incense-burners
        makes the foreground misty; but the farthest distance
        shoots into you with its straight rays--,
        and if now luster from clear bowls of flame 
        plays upon slowly approaching robes:
        how can you bear it?
        
        She, though, came and raised
        her eyes to look upon all this.
        (A child, a little girl between women.)
        Then she mounted quietly, full of self-confidence,
        towards the pomp that fastidiously made way:
        So much was everything that mankind builds
        already overwhelmed by the praise
        
        in her heart.  By her desire
        to yield herself to the inner signs:
        Her parents thought they were handing her up,
        the threatening one with the bejeweled breast
        received her it seemed; Yet she went through them all,
        small as she was, forth out of every hand
        and into her destiny, which, higher than the hall,
        was prepared already, and heavier than the house.
        
                               ANNUNCIATION TO MARY
        
        Not that an angel entered (mark this)
        was she startled.  Little as others start
        when a ray of sun or the moon by night
        busies itself about their room,
        would she have been disturbed by the shape
        in which an angel went;
        she scarcely guessed that this sojourn
        is irksome for angels.  (O if we knew 
        how pure she was.  Did not a hind, that,
        recumbent, once espied her in the wood,
        so lose itself in looking, that in it,
        quite without pairing, the unicorn begot itself,
        the creature of light, the pure creature--.)
        Not that he entered, but that he,
        the angel, so bent close to her
        a youth's face that his gaze and that
        with which she looked up struck together,
        as though outside it were suddenly all empty
        and what millions saw, did, bore,
        were crowded into them:  just she and he;
        seeing and what is seen, eye and eye's delight
        nowhere else save at this spot --:  lo,
        that is startling.  And they were startled both.
        
        Then the angel sang his melody.
        
                             VISITATION OF THE VIRGIN
        
        She still walked easily at first,
        but in climbing sometimes she ws already 
        aware of her wonderful body,--
        and then she stood, breathing, upon the high
        
        hills of Judea.   But not the land,
        her abundance was spread about her;
        as she went she felt one never could exceed
        the bigness she was feeling now.
        
        And she craved to lay her hand
        on the other body, that was further on.
        And the women swayed towards one another
        and touched each other's dress and hair.
        
        Each, filled with her holy possession,
        sought protection of her kinswoman.
        Ah, the Savior in her ws still flower,
        though the Baptist in her cousin's womb
        already leapt in transports of joy.
        
                                JOSEPH'S SUSPICION
        
        And the angel spoke and made an effort
        with the man, who clenched his fists:
        But dost thou not see by every fold 
        that she is cool as God's early day.
        
        Yet the other looked somberly at him,
        murmering only:  What has changed her so?
        But at that the angel cried: Carpenter,
        dost thou not yet see that the Lord God is acting?
        
        Because thou makest boards, in thy pride,
        wouldst thou really call him to account
        who modestly out of the same wood
        makes leaves burgeon and buds swell?
        
        He understood.  And as he now raised his eyes
        very frightened, to the angel,
        he was gone.  He pushed his heavy 
        cap slowly off.  Then he sang praise.
        
                          ANNUNCIATION OVER THE SHEPHERDS
        
        Look up, you men.  Men there at the fire,
        you who know the boundless heaven,
        star-readers, this way!  See, I am a new 
        rising star.  My whole being burns
        and shines so strongly and is so immensely
        full of light that the deep firmament
        no longer suffices me.  Let my radiance
        into your existence: oh, the dark looks,
        the dark hearts, destinies like night,
        that fill you.  Shepherds, how alone 
        I am in you.  Suddenly i have room.
        Did you not marvel:  the great breadfruit tree
        threw a shadow.  yes, that came from me.
        You fearless ones, oh if you knew
        how upon your gazing vision now 
        the future shines.  In this strong light
        much will happen.  To you I confide it for 
        you are discreet; to you honest believers
        all things here speak.  Fire and rain speaks,
        passage of birds, the wind and what you are,
        none prevails and grows to vanity
        glutting itself.  You do not hold things back
        in the breast's interval
        in order to torment them.  As his ecstasy 
        streams through an angel, so the earthly
        goes through you. And should a thornbush
        suddenly flame up, out of which even
        the Lord might call you; cherubim,
        if they deigned to walk alongside
        your herd, would not surprise you:
        you would cast yourselves upon your faces,
        worship and call this the earth.
        
        But this has been.  Now shall a new thing be,
        by which the world shall spread in wider circles.
        What is a thornbush to us:  God feels his way
        into a virgin's womb.  I am the shine
        of her lovingness, that goes with you.

    Dr,
    
        Thank you very much for entering the poem on Mary by Rainer Maria
    Rilke. I also found it moving and I will be seeking out his other
    works.
    
        Sections of the poem brought to mind some of the first chapters of
    the book, CITY OF GOD by Venerable Mary Agreda. This work is a record
    of private revelations on the life of Mary and it had some of the same
    'tone' of exaltation as the poem.
    
        Thank you for taking the time and effort to introduce me to this
    work.
    
        Mary
    

The following has been extracted from an article appearing in "The Spirit
and the Word"; July 1987; 178 Dexter Street, Providence, RI; J. Primeau.

MEDJUGORJE - ON THE TWILIGHT OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY

The most important question in the world is, "Is Jesus Christ really who he
says he is?"  How we answer that question and order our lives accordingly
affects our eternal destinies.  In any age where men stray from the law of
God, the Lord in his mercy has always sent a prophet to speak the truth in
love and call us back to repentance.  Moses was sent in this way; so was
Joshua, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel,
Daniel, John the Baptist and all the rest.  Jesus himself finally came and
was THE PROPHET who spoke the truth in love calling us to repentance through
his own blood.

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus, this task has been carried on by
Jesus through his Church and her saints.  But it is curious to see in the
last hundred years that as the earth has entered greater darkness, the main
prophet sent by God comes not from among mankind living on the earth but has
come from heaven itself reflecting the urgency and importance of our times.
The last time God's main prophet came from heaven itself was when "the Son
of Man came down from heaven" - 2,000 year ago.

LaSalette, Lourdes and Fatima are most extraordinary events, Fatima being
the most extraordinary and charismatic where for 70,000 people, believers or
Communist's agitators, newsmen and reporters alike saw the terrifying
movement of the sun.  Mary at Fatima prophesied the end of the First World
War; the rise of Russia, (which was considered ludicrous by most world
leaders and scholars of government for Russia at that time was a nobody, so
desolate her people were literally starving to death by the millions); the
prediction of Second World War; the cosmic sign of the war's approach; and
perhaps the nuclear age if the secret letter of Fatima had been read to the
world in 1960 which it wasn't because the Holy Father considered it too
grave to be revealed.

If we were alive in 1917, the  most important question would still have been
is Jesus Christ really who he says he is?  Yet, the second most important
question would have been: "Is this Fatima thing for real?"  How mankind
responded to this second question, would and DID affect in the next 28
years, the death of 25 to 30 million people who died on the battlefields and
in the concentration camps of Europe to say nothing of the human suffering
associated by the survivors of this period.  How many people in your family
line, grandparents, grand uncles and cousins either died, were wounded, went
to war or fled the war or changed their life circumstance because of what
took place during those next 28 years from 1917 to 1945?  Do you know any
family line that was not affected?  I don't and can't imagine it; at least
families living in America, Europe and the Pacific region.  Indeed,
everybody was affected and still is to this day!  Every east-west encounter
in the political or economic realm or on the battlefront usually relates to
the events that flowed from what happened during those 28 years.

Now once again this messenger from heaven is reported back!  Nearly every
day for six years and her message is peace through repentance, conversion,
confession, prayer, penance, fasting and reform "before it is too late."  If
who Jesus is, is the most important question, then the second might be for
us who are alive today, "Is Mary coming from heaven at Medjugorje again?"
And if so, "What's up" for the world that brings her again appearing every
day for six years to some children in Yugoslavia?  Is she really coming?
The Communist government says no.  The British BBC sent its crews there and
they came away very persuaded.  An ABC affiliate in New Orleans went there
in December and filmed a miracle of the sun and one of the two reporters (a
Baptist) came away praying the rosary!  Recently CBS went over and did
a national report on it.  The east coast of Yugoslavia is one of the most
favorite spots for vacationing in Europe.  Yet in the last five years, this
isolated small town has had over six million tourists, far more than any
other tourist spot in that country - amazingly enough, there wasn't a single
hotel or public toilet in Medjugorje for most of this time.

While all this might seem interesting, it should not obscure the essential
question; is Mary really appearing?  Moreover, why has she come?  Why was
she sent?  What is her message?  And, what does this tell me about the
times we are living in?  What am I going to do about this?  How am I going
to respond to her message?  Did she come for six children only, or just for
that small town, or does her message concern "grave events" that will happen
on earth?  Should I seriously take stock of this?  Next to the central
question of history; is Jesus who He said He is?  These questions may be the
most important questions we may ever face in our lives.  Because if it is
true, the world we live in will be drastically affected.  Unless we intend
to die soon, our lives and our children's lives will be very affected by
Medjugorje.

As the producer of the Spirit and the Word Cable TV Program, I have spoken
to the Pastor of Medjugorje, Italian doctors who reported to  the Vatican on
their investigation of physical healings, a Lutheran reporter who went there
and converted and completely changed his life, a psychologist and others; all
of whom have experienced unnatural charismatic phenomena when visiting
there.  From the moving of the sun, the disappearance and reappearance of a
35 foot concrete cross, to incredible physical healings, it is clear that
something very, very important of world significance is happening there!

The six children report to be receiving ten secrets from the Madonna.
Several who have received their 10 no longer experience the daily visions.
The oldest, Mirjana, who did receive her 10 secrets no longer sees the
Madonna but requested this letter be sent to the Pope by her spiritual
director, Father Tomislav Vlasic:

"According to Mirjana, during the apparition on December 25, 1982, the
Madonna confided the tenth and last secret to her, and she revealed the
dates on which the various secrets will come to pass.  The Blessed Virgin
revealed many aspects of the future to Mirjana, many more up to now than to
the other seers.  For that reason, I relate now what Mirjana told me in a
conversation on November 5, 1983.  I shall summarize the essential things
she said, without any literal quotations.  Mirjana said:

-Before the visible sign is given to humanity, there will be three warnings
to the world.  The warning will be warnings on the earth.  Mirjana will
witness them.  Three days before one of these warnings, she will advise a
priest of her choice.  Mirjana's testimony will be confirmation of the
apparitions and an incentive for the conversion of the world.  After these
warnings, the visible sign will be given for all humanity at the place of
the apparitions and a call back to faith.

-The ninth and tenth secrets are grave matters.  They are a chastisement for
the sins of the world.  The punishment is inevitable because we cannot
expect the conversion of the entire world.  The chastisement can be
mitigated by prayers and penance.  It cannot be averted.  An evil which
threatened the world according to the seventh secret, had been eliminated
through prayer and fasting, Mirjana said.  For that reason, the Blessed
Virgin continues to ask for prayer and fasting: "You have forgotten that
with prayer and fasting you can ward off wars, suspend natural laws."

-After the first warning, the others will follow within a rather brief
period of time.  So it is that people will have time for conversion.

-This time is a period of grace and conversion.  After the visible sign,
those who are still alive will have little time for conversion.  For that
reason, the Blessed Virgin calls for urgent conversion and reconciliation.

-The invitation to prayer and penance is destined to ward off evil and war
and above all to save souls.

-According to Mirjana, we are close to the events predicted by the Blessed
Virgin.  Because of this, Mirjana says to mankind: "Convert yourselves as
quickly as possible.  Open your hearts to God" (end of letter).

"As quickly as possible" might mean for us and our families living in 1980's
just that - as quickly as possible!  Perhaps we might take comfort by saying
that we want to wait until the Church officially approves it.  For although
Pope John Paul II in June of 1986 told local Italian Bishops not to stop
people from going there and although Cardinal Ratzinger has dissolved the
local Bishop's jurisdiction over it (he opposed it); nevertheless, the
Church hasn't and won't officially approve it since it involves prophecy -
and the test of prophecy is that it comes true.  Hence although the Pope
sent Christmas cards to the children, he and the Church will not officially
approve it until the test of scripture is passed, namely that the signs and
predictions come to pass.  Well, that is very prudent of course.  Fatima
wasn't approved until 1930, thirteen years later, but by then Russia was in
the hands of the Communists and the Nazis Third Reign was on its way.  The
course of human history had turned for the worst.

In 13 years, the Church may approve Medjugorje.  But do we have 13 years
before we need to repent, convert, pray, fast, and reform our lives as the
message of Medjugorje says is urgently needed?  We don't need the Church's
approval to do that.  Scripture says, "Today when you hear His voice harden
not your hearts", and in another place, "today is the day of salvation."
Jesus said to mankind once, "When you see the sun like a red ball setting
in the west you say, "tomorrow will be a hot day" and so it is..."if you can
interpret the signs of the times today?"  Medjugorje aside, consider the
last few years: we have seen major earthquakes like Mexico City and others,
a volcano that completely buried an entire city of 25,000 in one night in
Armero, Columbia, for hurricanes after the hurricane season devastated our
shores in 1985, a drought in 1986 that rocked the South and of course
Chernobyl.  One month this Spring we had more rain in the Northeast since
the flood!  Here in New England, we went about a month in which the sun came
out enough just to prove it still existed!  Do these things mean anything?
Are they ominous of anything?  Was the shuttle disaster ominous of the way
things are going in America?  Some think so, others claim these things have
always happened and the only unusual thing is that recently they may have
seemed to happen in rapid succession, but they are not out of perspective
with the history of the world.  Well, let's think about all of this for a
moment.  Suppose you were on the Titanic and just before it sank someone
said, "this has happened before and it will happen again."  Feel any better?
Or if you were one of the 25-30 million dead and wounded in Europe between
1932-1945 and some said to you just before you died, "These things happened
before and will happen again, that's life."  Would you feel any better?
Sure the flood happened, the Southern Kingdom of Israel was devastated
because it couldn't hear Jeremiah; Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
because it couldn't hear Jesus Christ and so on and so on.  That may be
life...but do you want to ride on that train?  Medjugorje is saying we don't
have to follow that path.  To avoid it, we need only repent, convert, and
devastation will be averted by prayer and fasting while there is still time
to do so.  As all of us know, time is something we are running out of in
this life very fast.  "TODAY when you hear His voice harden not your heart."
Medjugorje may seem on the twilight of the mainstream of the 20th Century
thought but in perspective I believe that the mainstream of 20th Century
thought is on the twilight side of reality. (J. Primeau)

       <<< LYCEUM::DISK$NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CATHOLIC-THEOLOGY.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Catholic Theology >-
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Note 476.3                 MEDUGORJE MONTHLY MESSAGES                     3 of 3
SMEGIT::CRETEAU                                      14 lines  28-JAN-1991 11:39
                             -< JANUARY 25, 1991 >-
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    JANUARY 25, 1991
    
    "Dear Children:  Today, like never before, I invite you to prayer. 
    Your prayer should be a prayer for Peace.  Satan is strong and wishes
    not only to destroy human life, but also nature and the planet on which you
    live. Therefore, dear children, pray that you can protect yourselves
    through prayer, with the blessings of God's Peace.  God sent me to you
    so that I can help you.  If you wish to, grasp for the rosary. Even the
    rosary alone can do miracles in the world and in your lives.  I bless
    you and I stay among you as long as it is God's will.  Thank you that
    you will not betray my presence here and I thank you because your
    response is serving the good and the peace.  Thank you for having
    responded to my call.
                         

    What recent activity has taken place in Medjugorje?
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    What activity has taken place in our hearts?
    
    DR

    After reading most of the replies about the apparitions of Virgin Mary,
    I just have a few questions:
    
    1. Is the teaching of apparitions taught anywhere in the Bible?
       After the ascension of Jesus and the Pentecostal experience, were
       there any apparitions recorded in the Word of God?
    
    2. re .8 The word "woman" in Gen 3:15 and Rev 12 does not directly
       point to Mary the mother of Jesus. In fact, I personally believe the
       interpretation is otherwise.
       If you think that Rev 12 refers to Mary, will you care to expound
       on the sun, the moon and the crown of twelve stars?
    
    3. The Catholic Church reasons that Mary was taken in soul and body
       without passing through physical death, I cannot find support for
       this assumption in the Bible.
    
    Robin.

re Note 156.18 by ZGOBIZ::JSTANG:

        Robin,

        I believe that the Catholic Church, along with most
        Catholics, would agree with you that the entire "doctrine of
        Mary" does not appear in the Bible.  The Catholic Church has
        always held and taught that the Bible does not record ALL
        divine revelation and truth, and that there were certain
        truths known to the apostolic age that were simply passed
        down through the body of believers over the ages and not
        written in the canon of Scripture.

        Bob

    Robin,
    
    You may not have intended this, but your words make me uncomfortable.
    They make me think of some kinds of anti Cathlolic prejudice, please
    try and be sensitive in your language.
    
    There are examples of people seeing apparations in the Bible. The
    visitation of Moses and Elijah to Christ and the disciples, and the
    apparances of the risen Christ after the crucifixion. I do not recall
    any verses that indicated that such things would not happen after
    the time the Bible was written about.
    
    The understanding of Mary differs among many of the Christian churches.
    Much of this is the result of oral tradition. many Protestants believe
    for example, that Joseph and Mary had children after Jesus was born.
    The Roman Catholic church, as I understand it, believes she remained
    a virgin all her life.
    
    Bonnie

    Thanks for your replies, Bob and Bonnie.
    
    Honestly, no offence intended. We're all seekers of the Truth.
    
    re .19: Does that means that our Bible is incomplete with regards to
    	    present day events? Do we therefore rely on the traditions of 
    	    the Caltholic Church as of higher authority?
    
    re .20: I believe that the appearance of Jesus after the Crucifixion
    	    wasn't an apparition, it was a physical resurrection. Can you
    	    give some examples of apparitions in the Bible after the
    	    Ascension of Christ?
    	    As much as the Bible did not speak that such things would not
    	    happen, it also didn't tell us of them coming.
    
    I continue to ask the questions in .18. Anyone?
    
    Robin.
    	    

re Note 156.21 by ZGOBIZ::JSTANG:

>     re .19: Does that means that our Bible is incomplete with regards to
>     	    present day events? 

        I am not sure what you are asking.  If you are asking "is it
        true that the Bible does not record all present-day (e.g.,
        20th century) events," I'd say that the answer must be self
        evident that it doesn't record all events after the canon was
        formed in the 3rd to 4th century.  This may be "incomplete",
        but not in any meaningful sense.

>           Do we therefore rely on the traditions of 
>     	    the Caltholic Church as of higher authority?

        Authority, yes (speaking as a Catholic, here) -- but not
        higher.

        Bob

    
    
    Robin,
    
    Yes Jesus was physically resurrected, but He also was able to walk
    through closed and locked doors. His body was physically changed.
    
    I guess I'm not sure what you mean by 'apparition'.
    
    Well as to 'apparitions' after Jesus's Ascension, there was the
    appearance to Paul on the Road to Damascus, and possibly the
    vision Peter had of the different types of food which could
    be eaten.
    
    Persons have reported encountering Christ in their lives as a 'real'
    presence thousands and thousands of times since the start of
    Christianity. I recall one such experience myself. Our faith teaches
    us that He is 'with us always' here on earth as well as in heaven.
    
    If indeed Mary was lifted bodily to Heaven as the Roman church teaches,
    then there is no reason why she should not also be able to appear
    to believers in other times. Many sincere people believe that she
    has.
    
    Since the Roman Catholic church was *the* church for the first
    1000 years after Christ (I'm not sure when the split between
    the eastern and western  branches of the church came), then I think
    that they may well keep on as 'traditions' many matters of
    importance that did not get recorded in the Bible.
    
    I don't think these traditions should be regarded as a 'higher
    authority' than the Bible,  but they should also not be dismissed
    out of hand just because they are 'only traditions'. 
    
    There are a lot of common practices in our churches that are 
    really only traditions of that particular branch of the church...
    Methods and time of baptism, for example, receiving of the Holy
    Spirit by laying on of hands, type and manner of taking the
    Lord's Supper/Communion/Mass...
    
    Bonnie
    
    P.S. and there are many many things that have occurred in the church
    since the end of the period that the Bible covers that were not
    predicted in the Bible. The Bible was not written to be a prediction
    but an account of a particular time. 
    
    If we are going to 'throw out' everything 'not predicted' by the Bible
    we might just as well toss out all of the modern Protestant churches..
    their break away from the 'one Church' was clearly not predicted by
    the Bible and used to be regarded as heretical.
    
    
    pps thanks dave

    Bob and Bonnie, your prompt replies are once again appreciated.
    
    It has certainly given me some insights and food for thought. I'll reply
    on that soon.
    
    With regards to .20, the Catholic Church believes Mary remained a
    virgin all her life:
    What then does "..His mother called Mary, and His _brothers_, James and
    Joseph and Simon and Judas?" means? (Matthew 13:55, underlined mine).
    Also see Mark 6:3, Gal 1:19, John 7:5, Acts 1:14.
    
    This is getting interesting. The Greek word {ADELPHOI} translated
    'brothers' here may also mean next-of-kins, but in this context I
    wouldn't quite agree.
    
    Emmanuel, Robin.

    RE:-1
    Errr..uhm, Bonnie, I recall Paul's letters speaking about a deaconess, but
    not about women priest. Could you point me to the verses that speak
    about women priest ?


    Peace
    Jim

    Robin,
    
    That is a simple one, and one that causes a major separation
    between Roman Catholics and Protestants....
    
    The RC church believes that 'brethren' (as it comes down
    to us in multiple translations from several languages) means
    'relatives or friends'..many Protestants interpret that as
    meaning that after the Virgin birth Mary and Joseph went
    on to have a normal marriage with many children.
    
    However, the first understanding, was what was accepted by 
    *the church* up until and after the reformation, from about
    the year 300. So, are we Protestants right in our modern
    re interpretation of Scripture? Or were the RC's right in their
    tradition that goes back to the founding all our churches?
    
    On a slightly different tangent....
    
    In the letters of Paul, there are mentions of women priests.
    There were early Christian groups that have been historically
    documented as having had women priests (ministers in your language
    I assume), but which are not now accepted, and called heretical.
    by the modern RC hierarchy ..
    
    My personal response as a woman, was that the people deciding what
    was heretical were the men, and they won an 'in battle' and kicked
    the women out...
    
    I also think, that understanding of both halves of the human condition
    the male and the female, was present in  the early church, such
    allowing women, for the first time to lead services, and for the 
    early  importance given Mary.
    
    I think we have fallen from what Christ/God/the Holy Spirit meant
    for the relationship of humanity with the Divine when the church 
    was founded.
    
    Bonnie 

    Jim,
    
    The word deaconess is a feminization of the exact same word that
    was used in the original for men. This is an example of exactly
    what I'm talking about.
    
    i.e. Phoebe was a 'deacon' just as the men were 'deacons' but when
    the word was translated into English it was feminized, and thus
    made less than what the men were i.e. not a true priest or minister.
    
    Bonnie

    re:  Jesus's brothers
    
    One can get more strong an assertion from Luke, who stated that Joseph
    had no sex with Mary until after Jesus was born.  On the other hand,
    the tradition is strong, and there is even another tradition that has
    all of Mary's fore-mothers having been virgins. 
    
    It occurs to me that few people would presume to comment on a modern-
    day woman's sexual experiences;  I am content for this to remain a
    mystery to me.  I look to Mary to fill the ache in my heart;
    thereafter I may care to attend to such gaps in my knowledge.
    
    DR

re.27

Bonnie,

but a deaconess and a priest are to different words. Yes?


ace

    Re: .29
    
    Ace,
    
    See note 189.7 for continuation of the present side topic.

This list of apparitions of Mary is lengthy.  Here are some of the most
well known:

1980	Cuapa, Nicaragua
1976	Cua, Venezuela
1973	Akita, Japan
1968	Zeitun, Egypt
1947	Tre Fontane, Rome
1933	Banneux, Belgium
1932	Beauraing, Belgium
1917	Fatima, Portugal
1879	Knock, Ireland
1876	Pellevosin, France
1872	Pompeii, Italy
1858	Lourdes, France
1531	Guadalupe, Mexico

o  In 1950, a Denver, Colorado, teen-ager said Mary had appeared to her,
and that she had her arms crossed over her breast and was weeping.

o  In 1988, the Rev. John D. Spaulding of Scottsdale, Arizona, said he'd
seen Mary, who'd told him that hearts are hard with unbelief and lack of
devotion.

Richard