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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

152.0. "Can religion be an addiction?" by ATSE::FLAHERTY (Peacing it together) Mon Jan 21 1991 17:34

Reprinted without permission from January 1991 edition of Lear's 
magazine.

Praying for a Dose of Mood-Change by John Bradshaw

Because I was raised a Roman Catholic I've had religion on my mind 
most of my life.  At the parochial school I attended in Houston, the 
subject was bred into us.  And from my earliest years as a counselor 
I've thought a lot about religious addiction - the mood alteration 
that comes with the feeling of righteousness, the feeling of being 
pure and blessed, specially selected, saved.  it seems to me that 
there is an enormous attraction in that kind of feeling for the 
shame-based person.

I can certainly well remember by first year in the seminary, the year 
called the novitiate.  It was very much like living in a monastery.  
Before I decided to become a priest, I had been, literally, a raving, 
wild, crazy drunk.  I'd spent six years of my life, from 14 to 20, in 
the brothels of Galveston, Texas.  I knew the madames personally.  Then 
I had this sudden conversion and rushed toward the priesthood.  
Obviously there was a polarity here, a kind of all or nothing.  
Orgiastic life or abstiences.  Bulimia or anorexia.

I can remember vividly that in the seminary I would kneel in the 
chapel for hours at a time, not moving a muscle in my body for whole 
afternoons.  I would fast to the point of exhaustion.  The payoff, as 
I look back on it now, was a tremendous feeling of righteousness and 
holiness.  And even though at the time I thought it was the right 
thing to do, today I understand that the goal of that behavior was 
mood alteration.  I can remember that at the end of that first year, 
when my mother came to see me, I was terribly irritated with her 
because she treated me like her son and not the holy man I had become. 
 it astonished me that she couldn't recognize my holiness.  I remember 
that when we went out for a drive I hoped we'd have an accident and die 
on the highway so I could go straight to heaven.  Out of that 
experience it has been easy for me to understand how people can pay 
their last cent to some religious guru who promises them the gift of 
salvation, who promises that they be the special ones, the saved.

Religious addiction can be of two basic kinds.  one is what I call 
Dionysian - the ecstatic kind, along the lines of gospel or ten 
revival, speaking in tongues, Penetecostal.  It's clear that such 
religious activity can lend itself to dramatic mood alteration.  And 
whatever the truth of the matter - whether there really are people who 
have special gifts of the spirit - there is a tremendous temptation 
here for the psyche of a severely shame-based person to be transformed 
overnight in a religious conversion, all past life wiped away, 
forgotten.

The other kind of religious addiction is what I call, for lack of a 
better word, Apollonian - the somber, intellectual, controlling, 
coercive type.  What we know as Puritanism - the lack of joy.  I 
remember a prayer we were taught in the fourth grade and recited 
frequently.  It went like this: "Straining to leave this life of woe/ 
With anquish sharp and deep I cry/ I die because I do not die."  This 
is the prayer of Saint Catherine of Genoa, a 15th-century mystic, and 
what a happy little hummer for the kids in the four grade.

A noteworthy example of the Apollonian style of addiction was the ashram 
of Rajneesh, where according to accounts, 28 percent of the 
congregation held Ph.D.'s.  These were intelligent people, yet they 
were committed to a cult that sought to exploit everyone who came near 
it, including its own disciples.  So low did they regard themselves, 
so wounded was their sense of self-worth, that they were prepared to 
experience complete self-abnegation in exchange for a single glance 
from their guru.  That says to me that when people have gone into 
their heads to avoid their feelings, they can be had.

In my option, religious addiction is the worst addiction of all 
because it's so hard to realize that there can be dangers.  When I've 
confronted clients on religious overactivity, when they were literally 
abandoning their children and driving their spouses crazy, they've 
looked piteously at me and said, "How could I be wrong to love God 
with all my heart?"  I'm glad to say that 12-step groups have sprung 
up in the past decade that deal precisely with people whose 
involvement in religious cults has led to life-damaging consequences.

I certainly don't want to give the impression that I'm against a 
healthy expression of religious belief or a person's commitment to 
worship.  Many people turn to God, but they don't turn away from self. 
They don't use God like a giant aspirin tablet.  If they do, that's a 
fix.  So it's important to ask yourself whether your belief is mood 
altering.  Does it make you feel better to believe?  If that is, in 
fact, the single goal of it, there's something wrong.

It seems to me that true believers have an inner quality of life that 
we probably don't know about.  They're doing the works of religion as 
they go about living their lives, and whether they'll be saved is not 
a worry to them.


    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
152.1It gets caught in the sheets ...WMOIS::REINKEHello, I'm the Dr!Mon Jan 21 1991 17:445
    Who was it whose counsel on a disciple's wedding night was ...
    
    		"Don't take your Bible to bed with you."
    
    DR
152.2XLIB::JACKSONCollis JacksonMon Jan 21 1991 18:286
There is a little of wisdom in that story and advice.

What a difference to worship God because of who *He* is, not because
of who *we* are or wish to be.

Collis
152.3What's the treatment for religious addiction?CARTUN::BERGGRENCaretaker of WonderMon Jan 21 1991 19:4423
    Ro,
    
    I agree with Bradshaw intellectually and from personal experience. 
    For some time I have been planning to write an article/journal entry 
    entitled something like "The Addiction of Spirituality".
    
    In hindsight, I would say several years ago I developed an addiction 
    to spirituality, to The Light, with symptoms similar to what Bradshaw
    describes.  And then oneday I "hit the skids."  I pretty much dropped
    it all and began to see how I was using it as a quick fix to the pain
    in my life which was largely a product of dysfunctional behavior
    patterns.  I was using it primarily as a "self-image-enhancer".  
    
    I was worshipping first and foremost its potential restorative powers,
    and secondly or probably thirdly, worshipping God.  But I understand
    it now as an experience of growth and development that is far more 
    common to people, in general, than I once had thought.  And as Bradshaw
    implies, I feel it is much more insidious to detect and therefore
    treat than other addictions.
    
    Thanks for an excellent article.  It's very timely, imho.
    
    Karen
152.4Detection Depends on Point of ViewWMOIS::REINKEHello, I'm the Dr!Mon Jan 21 1991 20:024
    It might be hard to detect in ones self, but it's not hard to spot in
    others.  Over-zealous religious folks give me the willies. 
    
    DR
152.5CARTUN::BERGGRENCaretaker of WonderMon Jan 21 1991 20:135
    I agree DR (.4) with a slight caveat:  Over-zealousness is one, but
    not necessarily the exclusive or primary "symptom" displayed by 
    religious/spiritual addicts.  
    
    Karen
152.6My observations differ slightlyLJOHUB::NSMITHPassionate committment/reasoned faithMon Jan 21 1991 23:1240
    Interesting article.  I agree in part, but he sounds rather judgmental
    of those who get caught up in it.
    
    My own "addiction" occurred during my teenage years.  I think of it
    more as obsessive/compulsive behavior, but perhaps that is the same
    thing.  For me:
    
    - Ritual prayers, etc., were necessary to alleviate my sense of guilt
      and enable me to get through the day.  The article almost makes
      the mood-altering aspect sound like a party, when, for me, it was
      a means of coping and emotional survival.
    
    - I was not so conscious of a "feeling of righteousness, the feeling of
      being pure and blessed" as of being a worthless sinner loved by God
      in spite of myself.  (I don't recall feeling that God's righteousness
      had somehow "rubbed off" on me!)
    
    - The coercive aspect, in my opinion, is based on the feeling that if
      others don't need my particular belief or "religious addiction," then
      their ability to get along nicely without it threatens it for me by
      calling it into question.  It was my *security blanket* and I feared
      for the present and furture happiness of anyone who did not have the
      same security blanket!
    
    Education and emotional growth enabled me to give up the more neurotic
    aspects of my faith when I was in college.  I look kindly on my
    teen-aged needs, however -- if it had not been for my religious
    "addiction" I might well have turned to drugs, promiscuous sex, or
    alcoholism!!  At least the religious addiction had no lasting harmful
    effects -- and, in fact, caused me to learn a lot of Scripture!
    
    Understanding that God loves me because He created me and called His
    creation good and that God does not condemn me for my sins ("Who
    condemns thee?  Neither do I condemn thee -- go and sin no more") and
    that God gives me the freedom to live my life joyfully -- well, these
    views are certainly an "about-face" from what I used to believe.  
    
    But the Person of God, my Friend and Companion is the same!
    
    Nancy
152.7DEBNT::MEYERDave MeyerMon Jan 21 1991 23:4818
    Ro,
    	thanks for inputing that long essay. I don't know if I liked it
    more because it suggested that certain people are overly religious
    (though I must admit that I don't really know any like that PERSONALLY)
    or because it seems, at the end, to support my life-view. 
    	Come to think of it, there may be a few that I know who are
    "problem religious", but they are not zealots in the usual sense. My
    reaction to zealots is to avoid them, thus I would never really get to
    know them.
    	Nancy, perhaps you are being a little defensive/sensitive in
    calling it "judgemental"?  It did not say "these people are bad", but
    "this is a problem and it can be bad". Or at least limiting. The people
    with the problem were having their lives impoverished, not enriched, by
    their religious experience. (Lives, not bank accounts) Saying that they
    need help is not the same as saying they are bad, or wrong, any more
    than saying that a smoker needs help. (who, me ? prejudiced ?) OK,
    maybe a LITTLE judgemental.
    
152.8CSC32::J_CHRISTIEHair peaceTue Jan 22 1991 02:4616
There is an element that can be found in every religion which is
termed by sociologists as "ecstacy;" which means "to be transported."

It is called Nirvana by Eastern religions.  But similar experiences have
also been reported by a number of Christians, particularly mystics.  In
his book, _The Varieties of Religious Experience_, Williams James describes
some who become incapable of carrying out routine tasks and functions because
they are so filled with spiritual ecstacy.  Love and adoration becomes
something of an intoxicant, a religious "high."

I propose that to the degree that religion is used as an escape response, or
used to dull the senses, religion might be considered an addiction; something
akin to the addictive use of TV (only not quite as passive /;-}).

Peace,
Richard
152.9Relgious Behavior, Not Necessarily FaithPCCAD1::RICHARDJBluegrass,Music Aged to PerfectionTue Jan 22 1991 11:1425
    Well, I think Bradshaw's experience with religion, although others may
    experience similar, is his experience and is not a good standard to 
    judge religious experiences of others from. 

    First, he mentions having a conversion, but doesn't tell us what that
    conversion was about. Did God talk to Him, or was his conversion 
    a result of his own intellectual decision ? For many religious people, 
    including my own, conversion was the result of an experience with the 
    personal being of Jesus Christ. 

    I've read Bradshaw's book, "The Family", and I've watched him on T.V. 
    Much of what he says is true, about our shame based identity of
    ourselves, but I think he leans to heavily on this as being the reason
    for our own failures. It's almost like the new age concept that sin
    doesn't exist, only his reasoning is that it exist, but it isn't your
    fault,  it was your parents fault and their sins where their parents
    fault. This to me is what original sin is all about, but once we are
    baptized and come into the age of reason, we alone are responsible for
    our  sins. Of course this is just my own opinion for whatever it's
    worth. -:)


    Peace
    Jim

152.10Further thoughtsWMOIS::REINKEHello, I'm the Dr!Tue Jan 22 1991 12:5313
    As I thought about this string last night, it occurred to me that as 
    addictive behavior goes, this seems particularly benign.  For Karen and
    Nancy, did you observe any "withdrawal symptoms" upon leaving this
    phase of your lives?  
    
    Also, Nancy mentions tremendous guilt (perhaps not derived from this
    life) and Karen echoes some of Bradshaw's prior experiences.  Does
    anyone know of St. Francis's or St. Augustine's early experiences after
    conversion?  Can this phenomenon be more easily classified as a simple
    bounce-back -- that which inevitably follows a particular extreme in
    one direction?   
    
    DR
152.11Apples And OrangesPCCAD1::RICHARDJBluegrass,Music Aged to PerfectionTue Jan 22 1991 14:2517
    RE-1
    Well, St. Francis and Agustine never had a feeling of self righteousness
    after their conversion as Bradshaw did.  Their conversion caused
    humility in themselves rather than self righteous elation. They also
    didn't feel guilt, but rather forgiveness. To me, the feeling of guilt
    is only there when you don't  feel forgiven.

    Like I said before, Bradshaw's experience was his own, and it cannot
    be compared to all others, especially St. Francis and St. Agustine.
    I think it is his error to do so,- if that is in fact what he is doing?
    
    Religious addiction is when you seek to be consoled rather than to
    console which is the opposite of what St. Francis was seeking when
    he wrote his prayer.

    Peace
    Jim
152.12CARTUN::BERGGRENCaretaker of WonderTue Jan 22 1991 15:4119
    Hi Dr,
    
    re .10
    
    Did I experience any "withdrawal symptoms" upon leaving that phase of
    my life?  Hmmm, perhaps.  I did experience many feelings, (anger,
    frustration, disorientation) that I would say could be associated with 
    withdrawal...but I would also clarify it as withdrawal from my previous 
    "expectations" the spiritual path was going to offer me -- not the 
    path itself.
    
    As you know, I did re-focus on spiritual awareness.  It happened a
    couple of years later rather gradually and spontaneously after I had
    initiated and completed certain phases of self-work that needed to be
    done all along.  I've returned with a deeper understanding of my
    relationship with God, and as a result, a growing awareness of the 
    promises and pitfalls of the spiritual path.  
    
    Karen
152.13Well, you asked for it!LJOHUB::NSMITHPassionate committment/reasoned faithTue Jan 22 1991 23:5760
    
    Withdrawal symptoms?  No, none that I know of -- not sure what you
    mean.  Basically this is what happened:  I wanted to go to a very
    conservative religious college, but it cost too much, and my liberal
    youth director saw to it that I got into a more liberal religious 
    college.  My first year or two I was unhappy there.  I said
    I would rather be "prayed for" at the conservative school for being too
    liberal for them than be "laughed at" at the liberal school for being
    too conservative for them!
    
    Then, at some point -- I don't know why, other than gradually maturing,
    etc. -- I decided that it was ok for me to believe the way I did and it
    didn't matter what others thought.  As soon as my defensiveness dropped
    away, I became open to more liberal points of view!
    
    Contrary to "withdrawal symptoms" I was amazed and in awe of the sense
    of relief (acceptance) and the greater freedom and joy.  (At least
    that's the way I remember it these many years later -- but reaching
    that point of view probably happened over time!)
    
    I really suspect that my experience is not dissimilar to the emotional
    upheavals and growth of many -- by no means all -- adolescents, except 
    that religion was my focus.
    
    On the other hand:
    
    >Also, Nancy mentions tremendous guilt (perhaps not derived from this
    >life)
    
    Huh?  Since I don't believe in reincarnation, I do not attribute my
    guilt to any previous life.  I believe it originated as follows:  At
    the age of 12 months, on Christmas morning, I got out of my playpen
    (which was broken somehow) and fell against the heating stove,
    receiving 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-degree burns on my hands, requiring
    numerous operations and skin grafts over the years.  I was an only
    child, and I believe I picked up on my mother's guilt feelings (partly
    her own personality and greatly, I'm sure, due to my accident) and
    added some guilt/sense-of-responsibility of my own, namely:  *I*
    went exploring outside the playpen, hurt myself, caused all this
    trouble and grief to my parents, etc., etc.  Add to all of this the
    fact that at about age 15 months I was sent to a hospital -- without
    my parents -- and promptly and abruptly weaned from the bottle --
    something no respectable hospital would *ever* do today!
    
    Well, all that happened over 50 years ago, and if a period of a few
    years of religious addiction is the worst psychological result, I
    can sure live with that!  (Actually it *wasn't* the "worst" -- there
    was other compulsive behavior during my elementary years -- getting up
    numerous times at night to be sure the gas water heater was turned off
    and the doors were locked.  *That* was much worse -- and turning to
    religion eased it somewhat!)
    
    Don't why I'm sharing all this very personal stuff here.  But you asked
    -- soft of, anyway!
    
    I am sympathetic to the child I was and to the obsessively-religious
    adolescent I used to be.  I think that's why I often *defend* people
    who seem to be like I used to be...
    
    Nancy
152.14May be hazardous to your marriageCSC32::J_CHRISTIEEl Gallo de PazMon Jul 01 1991 18:1712
	On her program Thursday, 6/27, Sally Jesse Raphael, TV talk hostess,
interviewed three couples who had all experienced marital difficulties
resulting from one partner's (the husband in the case of each couple on
this particular program) religious zealousness.

	According to the author of the book, _Toxic Faith_, who was also
on the show, this syndrome manifests itself in one marriage partner's time being
swallowed up by fellowship activities, meetings, errands for church members,
and a corresponding decrease in communication and involvement with the spouse.

Peace,
Richard
152.15beware of trial by mediaILLUSN::SORNSONAre all your pets called 'Eric'?Mon Jul 01 1991 18:5744
    re .14 (CSC32::J_CHRISTIE)
    
>	On her program Thursday, 6/27, Sally Jesse Raphael, TV talk hostess,
>interviewed three couples who had all experienced marital difficulties
>resulting from one partner's (the husband in the case of each couple on
>this particular program) religious zealousness.
>
>	According to the author of the book, _Toxic Faith_, who was also
>on the show, this syndrome manifests itself in one marriage partner's time bein
>swallowed up by fellowship activities, meetings, errands for church members,
>and a corresponding decrease in communication and involvement with the spouse.
    
    	Not that this applies in all cases, but, to be fair, one has to
    consider that it takes two to make a marriage work, but only one to
    make it fail, and when religion is involved, sometimes it's the failure
    of the 'unbelieving spouse' to see things as the 'believing spouse'
    does -- or at least to respect the reasonable (though different) views
    of the 'believing spouse' -- that causes the problems.  Because
    marriage is often involved, the separation between religious
    differences and personal differences is often blurred, and thus purely
    personal matters are sometimes used to color the picture differently
    than it really appears.
    
    	The ex-wife of someone in my congregation (which is of Jehovah's
    Witnesses, for those of you who don't know me) left our religion about
    the same time that she left her husband, and became bitterly opposed to
    both her husband and her former religion.  She also appeared on a talk
    show about 'toxic faith' to air her complaints (about her husband and
    his allegedly poisonous religion, which she, at one-time, espoused just
    as vocally); and from what I hear, she did her best to hatchet both.
    But since I, personally, am familiar with the basic elements of her
    situation, I know that in her case, her claims, where they aren't
    strictly personal, are greatly exagerated or distorted versions of the
    truth -- where they aren't blatantly false -- about how we practice our
    faith.
    
    	There's a Bible tenet which says that a person should not be
    convicted on the testimony of less than two people, and in modern
    countries it's a rule to at least let the defendant have a fair
    opportunity to present his side of the story.  Talk shows and 'tell
    all' books rarely, if ever, present the other side of the story, since
    the other side usually doesn't have the same 'tabloid' sort of appeal.
    
    								-mark.
152.16blaming the effect for the cause?CVG::THOMPSONSemper GumbyMon Jul 01 1991 19:108
	Almost any outside involvement can get in the way of a communication
	between a couple. Work, for one. That's a very common one. I don't
	think that the religion is really at fault as often as it's blamed.
	It's a matter of two people growing apart and one filling the void
	with religion as often as not. The lack of communication is the
	problem not what is filling the time.

			Alfred
152.17BCSE::SUEIZZ::GENTILEKama, the Urban ShamanThu Dec 12 1991 15:0223
I just entered this notes conference for the first time yesterday and I can 
really relate to this topic. If there ever was a case of religious 
addiction, my parents are it. They are and have been always addicted to the 
Catholic church. They spend most of their time going to prayer meetings, 
rosaries, shrines, masses, etc... It occupies most of their time. And it it 
is mood alteration. They use it rather than facing their shame. They feel 
that we are "not good enough" to deserve things. They were always told by 
their parents that they did everything wrong and that  they were no good. So 
rather then face it all like I have done they turn to their addiction. The 
whole house is filled with religious pamphlets and that's all they talk 
about it.
	They said that they were religious their whole life and doing things 
the "only right way" and at the same time they were hitting me with pieces 
of 2 by 4's and hitting me with the belt and constantly emotionally abusing 
me. I don't understand it. 
	I just know that it wasn't going to be the life for me. I grew up 
with all this. I came to Nashua 3 years ago and immedietly went to the 
Catholic church and tried hard to make all the church elders see how holy 
and good I was by signing up for everything in sight and spending all of my 
free time down there.
	I don't buy into this crap anymore. I worked on myself thru 12-step 
programs, grew to love myself and God and shed many of my addictions. I now 
have a great spirtual connection to God thru my Native American prata
152.18When God becomes a drugAKOCOA::FLANAGANwaiting for the snowTue Jan 05 1993 17:1223
I found this very thought prevocing article that I wanted to share and discuss 


"When God Becomes A Drug" By Father Leo Booth.

About the Author.

Father Leo Booth:  Author, lecturer, Episcopal priest and recovering 
alcoholic, Leo Booth has recently turned his energy towards dragging yet 
another dysfunctional secret out of society's closet-religious addiction.

He should know, "I was a victim, not only of religious abuse but also of 
religious addiction," Booth states.

Already well known to the recovering community as Father Leo, for his 
experience and wisdom on recovering from substance abuse, he has brought a new 
level of healing to his flock by addrssing this controversial topic in his 
latest book, When God Becomes a Drug: Breaking the Chains of Religious 
Addiction and Abuse.
    
    The article follows


152.19AKOCOA::FLANAGANwaiting for the snowTue Jan 05 1993 17:1351
When God Becomes A drug  Part 1.

"Religious Addiction"  is not being talked about.  If you talk abut sexual 
addiction as being the hidden addiction, I believe religious addiction is the 
hidden hidden addiction.  Many of us were brought up with the idea that whend 
it comes to religion, you don't really talk abut it or criticize it, because 
if you criticize religion or some of the abuses of the church or even priests 
and ministers-indirectly you're criticizing God.  Nobody wants to appear to be 
criticizing God.

So many people in the 12-Step recovery programs really have a problem with the 
God bit.  One of the reasons why I wrote the book was that I was hearing from 
recovering people their problems not only with God but with their church... 
Rigid, shaming, condemning, judgmental messages-those messages kept people not 
only from church but also from God.  It was my experience working as a 
therapist and mixing with recovering people that created the background to the 
book.

Then when I was listening to tehm, guess who I heard?  I heard me.  And I 
reflected that I too was a victim, not only of religious abuse but also of 
religious addiction.  U used the church for a fix.  I used religion and ritual 
too as a means of excape.

Religious addiction is when you use religion as a fix;  when you use religion 
to excape from responsibilities.  If you keep waiting for the miracle to 
happen from "out there" to change you life, religon becomes the fix, the means 
of the escape.

Religious addiction is progressive.  Most people who are religiously addicted 
have already been religiously abused.  They already have low self-esteem, low 
self-worth.  Many of them don't like themselves.  Many have been told by their 
parents not to like themselves.  And then somebody says, "There's a God up in 
heaven who loves you.  Jesus is just waiting to embrace you."  Originally 
people out ot their lonliness and shame start to move toward Jesus.

What happens then is they start doing more things that progress into 
addiction.  They start reading the Bible, then they start quoting the Bibe, 
then stey start emphasizing texts that demonstrate their exclusivity.  "If you 
don't believe what we believe then I'm afraid you're going to hell becasue the 
Bible says so.  Some of them get into ritual, black and white thinking, 
excessive judgmentalism.

The fundamentalists will say, "we believe in the literal word of God."  No, 
they don't!  None of them do

It's ludicrous, for example , to expet St Paul to understand alcoholism.  So 
when he says all the drunkards are going to hell, that's because he had no 
understanding of alcoholism, any more than he had an understanding of 
homsexuality.  Two thousand years agod, St. Paul also thoust the world was 
flat.  He thought slaves should be obedient to theri masters.  To follow 
exactly what St Paul said would be a menu for suicide.
152.20AKOCOA::FLANAGANwaiting for the snowTue Jan 05 1993 17:1348
"When God becomes a Drug"  part 2.


I am not saying that the Bible is not inspired.  I believe that it is very 
inspirational.  But I think if you take it as a literal textbook, a 
how-to-book for every aspect of your life, that's an abuse of the Bible.

I think that religion is very often man-made.  I believe that spirituality is 
God-given.  Spirituality is a jouney within ourselves.  Religion is a 
manifestation of our actions toward othe people.  Spirituality emphasizes what 
you and I have in common.  Religon often emphasizes what separates us.  I'm a 
Jew, you're a Musim.  Spirituality also works through art, theater, dance.  
But religon confines itself to holy books and rituals.  One's an organization.  
the other is free-flowing spirit.

Some people say "religion caused a lot of wars.  I say "Caused?  is causing in 
the present!"

I think there's a danger with the teaching of original sin, because it keeps 
emphasizing our weaknesses, our unworthiness, the idea that we are born bad.  
And if you have an unbalanced emphasis upon our badness, then I believe you 
create people of low self-esteem and low self-worth.

What you need to do is emphaize the fact that we are not God;  we are 
imperfect.  We all make mistakes, but we are not a mistake.  The reason that 
we're not a mistake is that we are all children of God.  All with the ability 
to create, with the ability to do wonderful things.

And that's the message of the 12-step program.  Not only that man is good, but 
that man is capable of change.

When you talkabout discovering God as you understand God, that means that 
you're involved in the relationship you have with God.  God is going to be 
your friend, your lover, not just the person who's condemning you.

You don't need to be afraid of God.  God is a  positive, loving, creative 
source of life.  We are in a relationship with God when we are positive, when 
we are loving.  God is the Creator.  When we are creative, we are in a 
relationship with God; we are in tune with God.

I think that for many people the agnostic position is the spiritually honest 
position.  To say I don't know.  You need to believe in a Higher Power that 
you can understand.  That may be a God in the sky, a Roman Catholic God or 
Episcopal God, or it may be a God who is very much at work in or through human 
beings.  Your perception of God is very lmuch based on your understanding of 
creation.  It may not be a God in the sky.  There are many people who are able 
to discover God in their relationship with creation, but who never, never have 
an understanding of God as presented in St. Paul's Cathedral
152.21AKOCOA::FLANAGANwaiting for the snowTue Jan 05 1993 17:3227
"When God becomes a Drug"  part 3

The new age movement concerns me because sometimes I think that people have 
transferred their crucifixes to crystals.  They're expecting the crystals to 
do magic.  Basically you've got the same scope of stuff in new age as you have 
in religion.  You've got people who are into the rituals, the instuments of 
spirituality.  They use the new age clapptrap to hide behind, instead of 
taking responsibility for their lives.  Just like people use religious 
clap-trap.  But you've also got a healthy group of new age people who are 
talking about the need for us to be involved in choices, in our healing, in 
our lives.

Any system that is created by imperfect people is bound to be imperfect.  And 
I think that there's a sick part of us that wants always to create 
dGod(perfection) on earth.  That's when you get into becoming a slave to the 
thing you've created.  Eventually you create a monster for yourself and the 
monster ends up destroying you.  You have to be very careful with systems, 
philosophical systems, recovery systems-that you don't create for yourself 
monsters by placing expectations on them that they can never fulfill.

I'll give you a little story.  A child comes home to her mother and says that 
she's scared; there are ghosts out there.  And the mother gives her a little 
melalion and says. "if you wear this, it will keep the ghosts away.  Unhelathy 
religion gives you a medallion.  Healthy religion tells you there are no 
ghosts.

What I'm trying to do is get rid of the ghosts 
152.22CSC32::J_CHRISTIEPeace WarriorThu Jan 07 1993 18:4714
I've never experienced a religious addiction - at least, I don't think so.

I suspect that a former participant, Mikie Morgan, might have categorized a
part of his past as under a religious addiction.

I saw a man interviewed by Sally Jessy Raphael whom I'd classify as addicted.
He wore an oversized tie clasp with the name "Jesus" written in cursive with
rhinestones.  Everything he said was either a religious cliche or a Bible
verse or a combination thereof.  His wife said he was like that at home,
that he had a different evangelististic and church activity every night
of the week, all day Sunday and 7 out of 8 Saturdays.

Richard