Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

That's great!  It looks like their dictionary indices were off by one.

				-- Bob

    Laughed so hard I started coughing and lost my voice again!!!
    
    :-)  :-)
    
    Nanci

    
     
      Ok, someone let me in on the joke. I mean what's so funny ?
    I read all of Re.0 and it made perfect sense to me.
    
    
                                                          Mike

    Mike
    
    the dictionary or what ever it was was apparently shifted by
    one word..
    
    so that present tenses 'saw' became 'sawed' and words like
    water and night were replaced by the next word on the list
    like 'waterskin' and 'nighthawk'..
    
    that made it rather silly to read.
    
    Bonnie
    
    but I think you knew that
    

    
    For me, it retained the original meaning. :-)
    
    guy

The preacher came to call the other day.  He said at my age I should
be thinking of the hereafter.

I told him, oh, I do all the time.  No matter where I am, in the den,
upstairs, in the kitchen or down in the basement, I ask myself, "What
am I here after?"

Re:  .6

Sounds just like my Dad.  :-)

    Spitting Image is a series currently running here in the UK on Sundays.
    This is from memory, so apologies if it doesn't run true to the show.
    It's in a new series, and in last night's show:
    
    Archbishop Runcie and God are having tea. God is not happy. [God is
    portrayed as an old man with long white hair. In other shows he has a
    tendancy to zap people with lightning bolts.]
    
    God: "I'm thinking of becoming an aetheist"
    
    Runcie: "WHAT! But... you're god, you can't do that!"
    
    God: "Well, I'm not sure I exist any more."
    
    Runcie: "Well, the Bible says so!"
    
    God picks up the Bible, throws it over his shoulder. "That's no good!
    *I* wrote it!"
    
    Runcie: "You need to find yourself again. Perhaps you should come to
    tomorrow's evening at St. Paul's. There will be the youth group, with
    cakes and tea... and... *gasp*... Fondant Fancies!"
    
    God: "Tea and biccies. Oh goody! Will there be the ginger kind?"
    
    The Bishop of Durham arrives [Note: In the past, the bishop has
    expressed the view that Christ was not a historical person]
    
    Runcie: "You *****! You've being telling Him He doesn't exist again,
    haven't you!"
    
    BofD: "Who?"
    
    God: "Exactly!"
    
    Runcie groans in agony.
    
    Pete.

	In one edition of the comic strip "Kudzu", the preacher says to the
congregation, "Brothers and Sisters, today I want to give you a test; a
spiritual test.  This test will measure your level of spiritual development
as a congregation.  Ready!  First question!  Complete the sentence: Whosoever
will strike you on your first cheek..."Someone shouts out, "Waste him!"
Another yells, "String him up!"  The preacher mutters to himself, "I may
be forced to grade this one on the curve!"

    Richard

From Pontius' Puddle:

	Pontius busily typing a letter at a keyboard.  The letter reads:

			----------------------
			 Letter to the Editor
			----------------------

	I am deeply distressed by your magazine.  There hasn't been a
publication whose theological treatises I've been so offended by, whose
candid accounts of bickering among church groups I've been so embarrassed
by, whose nagging reminders of the needs of the world and church I've
been made to feel so guilty by since --- well, since the New Testament.

	Keep it up!!!

			----------------------

Richard

Hi Folks,

I've been out sick for rather a while, and now have several hundred notes 
topics to catch up on here and there, not to mention work.  But I did want to 
share something with you that came to me one feverish, sleepless night, and 
this topic seems to be a reasonable place to have stumbled across...

I was thinking about the final judgement, where God separates the sheep on one 
side and the goats on the other side, and I was struck by the fact that God 
must have made us .....


                       ..... deo-bi-gradable!




(i.e. able to be graded into two catagories by a deity...)

Well, with that out of my system I'm feeling ***LOTS*** better now, thank you!  
Hope to be noting again soon.

Peace,

Jim

    Beam him up, Scotty. He's been warped by a mind-probe. ;-)

     I heard this joke told by Yakov Smirnoff the other day:
     (Try and imagine this being told by someone with a
       Russian accent.)

        Not long after I came to this country I was at a friend's
       house. He looked out the window and starts to panic.
       "Come quick, we've got to hide" he says"
       "What's going on ?" I ask.
       "No time to explain. Quick let's get into the bedroom
        and shut the door"
       "KGB ?" I ask.
       "No, worse than that" he says.
       "It's the Jehovahs Witnesses !"
    
    
    
         I hope this is not seen as demeaning to Jehovahs Witnesses.
         I thought it was a pretty funny comentary on how people
         behave towards them.
                                                       
                                                               Mike



                                                       
     

    re .13           
    
    Mike,
    
    Well, I laughed when I read it . Jehovah's Witnesses do seem to be
    everywhere you go, no matter what part of the globe you live . I had an
    experience related to me about an English couple who moved to a secluded 
    spot in Australia . One of the main reasons for emigrating was to get
    away from Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on their door . Well this
    backfired for their nearest neighbour who lived a mile away was a
    Jehovah's Witness .
    
    Another Witness joke I have heard is :-
    
    Q. What is the difference between a Skoda (car) and a Jehovah's Witness .
    
    A. You cant close the door on a Skoda .
    
    I hope this joke was not demeaning to Skoda users or my friends .
    
    Phil.
    

Re: .13  Mike

I'll say this at least: I'd rather have Jehovah's Witnesses knocking at my
door than the KGB!

				-- Bob

     
     A small town minister was chiding one of his flock for missing
    church on the two previous Sundays.
     "This is Spring planting time and I have got to get my crops in"
     said the farmer. "But I was careful to work the back forty so
     no one could see me working on a Sunday."
      "Yes" replied the minister, "but God could see you."
     "I know" said the farmer, " but he don't gossip like a lot of
     the members of this church do."


                                                               Mike

With all the discussion lately about Christianity being a very emotional
faith,


would it be safe to say, when seeing one weep in sadness or crying for joy,


that they have a "moat" in their eye?



Jim

	The teacher asked his class to give examples from the Gospel
to show that Christ was both God and human.

	One girl said, "Jesus was in a boat with the Apostles when a
bad storm came up.  Jesus proved he was human because he became tired
and fell asleep.  The fact that he didn't get mad when they woke him
up proves Jesus was God.

8+}
Richard

	The teacher asked her class, "Who wants to go to Heaven someday?"

	All but one student eagerly raised their hands.

	"Johnny," the teacher inquired, "Don't you want to go to Heaven?"

	"Yeah," Johnny answered, "But, not if it means going there with
*this* group!"

8+}
Richard

	Two young girls were always in competition with each other.
Both landed important parts in the annual Christmas pageant.  One
was to play the Angel and the other was to be Mary.  Still they argued
over who had the superior role.

	The girl who was to play the Angel said, "My role is the most
important one, because it's the angel who announces the birth of the Christ
child!"

	The other replied, "Oh yeah?  Well, my role is a lot harder
than yours!  Everybody knows it's lots easier to be an angel than it is
to be a virgin!"


;-}
Richard

I have heard that the Kraft Co. is building a dairy processing plant in the
West Bank.  They are going to name it Cheeses of Nazareth!


/Mike

Nyuk!  Nyuk!

:-D

Nanci

    Blessed are the cheesemakers.
    
    :-}
    Richard

Q: Say, do you know how Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker first met?




A: Well, they were both dating Jimmy Swaggart at the time.......

Richard

    
    	I don't remember where I saw this but...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	What do you get when you play a Country Western record backwards?
    
    	
    
    	give up
    
    	You get your dog back and your wife back and you get your truck
    back ...

Tony Buzan tells a very funny story about a child in Sunday School
who was given the assignment to draw with crayons a picture depicting
some portion of the Lord's prayer.

The child drew 2 figures, walking side by side and holding some
unidentifiable squiggle between them.   Her Sunday School teacher
told her she must've not been paying attention because her picture
contained nothing from the Lord's prayer.  But the young pupil, nearly
in tears, insisted that it did.

"See," she said, "This is the part that goes 'Lead a snot into temptation.'"

8-}
Richard

An employee who had worked in Product Marketing of a High Tech company, died,
and upon entering Heaven, met St. Peter.  St. Peter said, "In the interest
of fairness, we want to give you the option to stay here in heaven, or to go 
to Hell.  You can look around here for a few minutes, then go visit Hell 
for a while before you decide.  The catch is that your decision is final - 
no changing your mind."

So, the fellow started walking around Heaven. What he saw, he thought to 
be a bit boring.  People were playing horseshoes, bridge, drinking tea.  
It wasn't bad, but it did look kind of slow.  He mentioned this to St. 
Peter, and asked for his visit to Hell before his decision.

Immediately, he found himself standing in front of two huge doors imprinted 
with "HELL".  Expecting the handle to be hot, he reached gingerly for it.  
Surprisingly, the handle was cool to the touch.  He opened the door and 
leaped back, expecting to see scorching flames coming at him.  Not so, 
instead the air was pleasantly cool.  Proceeding through the doors, he 
found a flurry of activity.  He noticed a large swimming pool, mountains in 
the distance, and nearby seaside with quality beaches.  People were 
standing around eating, drinking, dancing in general having a great time.  
The marketing fellow thought that this looked like much more fun than 
Heaven, so he promptly returned to St. Peter and told him that he had 
chosen Hell.

Once again, he found himself in front of the huge doors.  Reaching to open 
the door, he scorched his hand on the blisteringly hot handle.  After 
entering, he was faced with a wall of flame, and he could hear horrendous 
screaming and moaning.  He stood there, incredulous.  The devil walked up 
and asked if there was some problem.  "Yes," the fellow replied.  "I was 
just down here ten minutes ago, and it wasn't hot, and people were partying 
and having a great time!  What happened?"




The Devil smiled, leaned on his pitchfork, and replied:  "What you saw was 
our Demo."
    

I guess that means it was only a demo of heaven as well...  Hmmm.  I bet their
demo was rather conservative...   :-)

Jeff

	Overseeing Heaven one day, God noticed the fence between Heaven and Hell
was down.  So, God called over to Satan and told him to get that fence fixed.

	"No way!" Satan responded tersely, "I fixed the fence the last 3
times.  It's your turn!"

	"Look, Satan," God countered, "I'm not going to put up with your guff.
If you don't get that fence fixed and fixed right, I'll take you to court!"

	Satan just grinned.  "Where do you think you're going to find a lawyer
on *your* side of the fence?"


;-}
Peace,
Richard

    	The Devil appears to a lawyer.  He offers the lawyer $10,000,000,
    but the lawyer must agree to give up his wife, his kids, everything
    he loves and holds dear.  The lawyer hesitates for a couple minutes, 
    then looks back at the devil and says, "OK, so what's the catch?"

    ]B^}
    Richard

    Who is the shortest man in the Bible?
    
    Bildad the Shuhite!

    I was watching "The South Bank Show". It normally deals with very arty
    subjects but last Sunday it was about Douglas Adams, the author of "The
    Hitch-Hiker's guide to the Galaxy".
    
    Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect made guest appearances, as well as an
    Electric Monk - designed to believe in whatever you tell him to, that
    way you don't have to bothered with all the trouble of believing in it
    yourself. Wonderful! Now where can I get one!!!
    
    Pete.

Heard this one on the latest P.D.Q. Bach CD...

It turns out Elvis Presley was Jewish.  His given name was Aaron, but he 
changed it to Elvis, after the singer Elvis Costello.  Now that wasn't 
Costello's original name either, it was Louis, but Presley didn't know that.

Costello originally wanted to be a monk, and not just any monk, but the head 
of a monestary.  See, there's a series of monestaries in Europe, and they all 
brew beer; one brews Heineken, one brews Schlitz, one brews Rolling Rock, and 
so on...   so


Lou Costello wanted to be the "Bud" Abbot.

Heard this on America's Funniest People:

A priest goes into a crowded theatre and asks someone on the aisle,
"Is this seat saved?"

So the guy answers back, "No, but it's willing to listen!"

8-}
Richard

After a particularly harrowing day with her particularly naughty son,
the mother, in despair, uttered, "Why can't you just be good?"

Her son, a bit of a con artist, answered, "I'll be good, Mom,....for
a dollar!"

"Why can't you be like your father," she wearily responded, "and be good
for nothing?"

;-}
Richard

    This reminds me of something I read a long time ago in the parenting
    file.  Please pardon my para-phrasing.
    
    A father tried very hard to answer all of his son's questions honestly
    and wholely (sp?).  But sometimes if it got too complicated or he was
    too tired he would say, "Because that's the way God made it."
    
    One day his son was being particularly difficult, so the father said to
    his son, "Why are you being so difficult?"  To which his son replied,
    "Because that's the way God made me!"
    

The sermon last Sunday was entitled "Good for nothing."  It was one of
my pastor's best!  In it, he shared that his parents had wanted him
to become a doctor so that they could 'get sick for nothing'.  Well,
he disappointed them by becoming a minister.  Now they can only 'be
good for nothing.'

8-}

The sermon centered on the concept of being and doing good without
thought of reward or compensation, heavenly or otherwise.

Peace,
Richard

Q.  What do you get when you cross a grandma with an octopus?




A.  I don't know either, but she sure can play bingo!!

;-}
Richard

	A priest and nun are on their way back home from a convention
	when their car breaks down.  They are unable to get repairs
	completed and it appears that they will have to spend the night
	in a motel.
 
	The only motel in this town has only one room available.
 
	Priest:  "Sister, I don't think the Lord would have a problem,
	under the circumstances, if we spent the night together in this
	one room.  I'll sleep on the couch and you take the bed."
 
	Sister:  "I think that would be okay."
 
	They prepare for bed and each one takes their agreed place in
	the room.

	Ten minutes later...
 
	Sister:  "Father, I'm terribly cold."
 
	Priest:  "Okay, I'll get up and get you a blanket from the closet."
 
	Ten minutes later...
 
	Sister:  "Father, I'm still terribly cold."
 
	Priest:  "Okay Sister, I'll get up and get you another blanket."

	Ten minutes later...
 
	Sister:  "Father, I'm still terribly cold.  I don't think the
	Lord would mind if we acted as man and wife just for this one
	night."
 
	Priest:  "Okay, then.....Get up and get your own blanket!"

;-}
Richard

Met by the Keeper of the keys at the pearly gates of Heaven, the new arrival
was advised that before entering, she was required to name her Savior.

"That's easy!" she responded. "It's Andy."

"Andy? Andy?" the booming resonant voice inquired.

"Yeah, you know!" she insisted.  And then, she began to sing:



"Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me, Andy tells me...."

Where I worked before coming to Digital we received our paychecks
bi-weekly, every other Friday.  The day we were paid became known as
"Good Friday."

Do you know what we called the Friday we didn't get paid?


"Passover!"

:-}
Richard

              The World According to [actual] Student Bloopers
                            St. Paul's School          
                                                       
    The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies.  They lived in the Sarah
Dessert and traveled by Camelot.  The climate of the Sarah is such that the
inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are
cultivated by irritation.  The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape
of a huge triangular cube.  The Pramids are a range of mountains between
France and Spain.

    The Bible is full of interesting caricatures.  In the first book of the
Bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree.  One of
their children, Cain, asked "Am I my brother's son?"  God asked Abraham to
sacrifice Issac on Mount Montezuma.  Jacob, son of Issac, stole his
brother's birthmark.  Jacob was a partiarch who brought up his twelve sons
to be partiarchs, but they did not take to it.  One of Jacob's sons,
Joseph, gave refuse to the Israelites.

    Pharaoh forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw.  Moses
led them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread
made without any ingredients.  Afterwards, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide
to get the ten commandments.  David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing
the liar.  He fought with the Philatelists, a race of people who lived in
Biblical times.  Solomon, one of David's sons, had 500 wives and 500
porcupines.

    Without the Greeks, we wouldn't have history.  The Greeks invented
three kinds of columns - Corinthian, Doric and Ironic.  They also had
myths.  A myth is a female moth.  One myth says that the mother of Achilles
dipped him in the River Stynx until he became intolerable.  Achilles
appears in "The Illiad", by Homer.  Homer also wrote the "Oddity", in which
Penelope was the last hardship that Ulysses endured on his journey.
Actually, Homer was not written by Homer but by another man of that name.

    Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people
advice.  They killed him.  Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock.

    Eventually, the Ramons conquered the Geeks.  History call people Romans
because they never stayed in one place for very long.  At Roman banquets,
the guests wore garlic in their hair.  Julius Caesar extinguished himself
on the battlefields of Gaul.  The Ides of March killed him because they
thought he was going to be made king.  Nero was a cruel tyrany who would
torture his poor subjects by playing the fiddle to them.

    Then came the Middle Ages.  King Alfred conquered the Dames, King
Arthur lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harlod mustarded his troops before
the Battle of Hastings, Joan of Arc was cannonized by George Bernard Shaw,
and the victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks.  Finally, the
Magna Carta provided that no free man should be hanged twice for the same
offense.

    The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of
their human being.  Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at
Wittenberg for selling papal indulgences.  He died a horrible death, being
excommunicated by a bull.  It was the painter Donatello's interest in the
female nude that made him the father of the Renaissance.  It was an age of
great inventions and discoveries.  Gutenberg invented the Bible.  Sir
Walter Raleigh is a historical figure because he invented cigarettes.
Another important invention was the circulation of blood.  Sir Francis
Drake circumcised the world with a 100-foot clipper.

    The government of England was a limited mockery.  Henry VIII found
walking difficult because he had an abbess on his knee.  Queen Elizabeth
was the "Virgin Queen."  As a queen she was a success.  When Elizabeth
exposed herself before her troops, they all shouted "hurrah."  Then her
navy went out and defeated the Spanish Armadillo.

    During the Renaissance America began.  Christopher Columbus was a great
navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic.  His
ships were called the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Fe.  Later the
Pilgrims crossed the Ocean, and their ship was called the Pilgrim's
Progress.  When they landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by Indians,
who came down the hill rolling their war hoops before them.  The Indian
squabs carried porposies on their back.  Many of the Indian heroes were
killed, along with their cabooses, which proved very fatal to them.  The
winter of 1620 was a hard one for the settlers.  Many people died and many
babies were born.  Captain John Smith was responsible for all this.

    One of the causes of the Revolutionary Wars was the English put tacks
in their tea.  Also, the colonists would send their parcels through the
post without stamps.  During the War, Red Coats and Paul Revere was
throwing balls over stone walls.  The dogs were barking and the peacocks
crowing.  Finally, the colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for
taxis.

    Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented
Congress.  Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two
singers of the Declaration of Independence.  Franklin had gone to Boston
carrying all his clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm.
He invented electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared "a horse
divided against itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still
dead.

    George Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the
Father of Our Country.  Then the Constitution of the United States was
adopted to secure domestic hostility.  Under the Constitution the people
enjoyed the right to keep bare arms.

    Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent.  Lincoln's mother
died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his own
hands.  When Lincoln was President, he wore only a tall silk hat.  He said,
"In onion there is strength."  Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg address
while traveling from Washington to Gettysburg on the back of an envelope.
He also signed the Emasculation Proclamation, and the Fourteenth Amendment
gave the ex-Negroes citizenship.  But the Clue Clux Clan would torcher and
lynch the ex-Negroes and other innocent victims.  On the night of April 14,
1865, Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by one of the
actors in a moving picture show.  The believed assinator was John Wilkes
Booth, a supposedly insane actor.  This ruined Booth's career.

    Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time.  Voltare
invented electricity and also wrote a book called "Candy".  Gravity was
invented by Issac Walton.  It is chiefly noticeable in the Autumn, when the
apples are falling off the trees.

    The sun never set on the British Empire because the British Empire is
in the East and the sun sets in the West.  Queen Victoria was the longest
queen.  She sat on a thorn for 63 years.
    
    The end.

re: Note 98.42 by Richard "Peace Reservist" 

May I extract this, please?

Peace,

Jim

	After being hit by lightning on the golf course, Lee Traveno was asked
	if he'd learned anything from it. He replied, "Yes, if God wants to
	play through you better let Him."

			Alfred

                   * For Internal Use Only *

    May not be redistributed to non-Digital employees.
    
*  Note: (ATTENTION EDITORS: The following Mike Royko column is being
*  transmitted ahead of its normal schedule. It is for immediate release.)

MIKE ROYKO
	
	``You think that maybe God is a Republican?'' Slats Grobnik asked.
	I don't know. My guess is that he's non-partisan. Why do you ask?
	``Well, listening to some of the Republicans, they talk like God is
an honorary chairman of their party. Even President Bush slammed the
Democrats for not mentioning God in their party platform. You think God
really cares if he's in a party platform that hardly anybody reads
anyway?''
	I've never heard a theologian express that view.
	``From what I can tell, most party platforms are a lot of baloney. So
I figure God would probably say: `Hey, if you're going to make a lot of
phony promises, don't do it in my name, OK?'''
	I'm not sure he'd phrase it that way, but that could be his
sentiment.
	``And what about his son?''
	What about him?
	``He was Jewish, right?''
	On his mother's side, yes.
	``And he was kind of liberal, right?''
	In some ways, I suppose.
	``Well, he said the poor are blessed. And so are the merciful. And
that the meek are going to inherit the Earth. You didn't hear nobody at
the Republican Convention putting in good words for the poor or the
merciful or the meek. Pat Buchanan sounded like he'd like to hang 'em
from a tree. And what about the rich Republican fat cats?''
	What about them?
	``Didn't God's son put the whammy on the rich? He said something like
woe to them. And that a rich guy has about as much chance of getting to
heaven as a camel has in getting through the eye of a needle. Boy, put
that in the Republican platform and see what happens to contributions.''
	Yes, he frequently made harsh statements about the rich. Especially
those who were tightwads. He was in favor of giving your riches away.
	``See? If that ain't a liberal, I don't know what is. And I think he
was in favor of taxes, too.''
	I'm not sure about that.
	``Sure. When some guys came to him and tried to con him into bum-
rapping the taxes, he pointed at the coin that had Caesar's mug on it
and said that they should give Caesar what he has coming. Which meant
not beefing about paying taxes. You don't find that in the Republican
platform, either. And what about the hooker?''
	What hooker?
	``That Mary Magdalene. He said she's going to heaven, but all the
rich fat cats ain't. Now, if that ain't liberal, I don't know what is.
And the thief, too.''
	What thief?
	``Remember, the one on the other cross. I mean, the guy was a
criminal, which is why they nailed him up there. But he gets an ironclad
promise that he's going to the kingdom. Hah, all the fat cats are still
trying to get through the eye of a needle, and some crook walks right
through the pearly gates. Hey, if he showed up today, you think he could
get into one of those fancy private country clubs a lot of the
Republicans belong to?''
	Jesus in a country club?
	``Yeah. If he goes in and applies, and says that his mother was
Jewish, the old blackball would come out, right?''
	At some clubs, I suppose they would exclude him on that basis.
	``Imagine that, some membership chairman saying: `Sorry, Jesus, we
believe in you and all that, but right now our membership list seems to
be filled up.'''
	Well, he could apply at one of the predominantly Jewish country
clubs.
	``Yeah, but he couldn't get in there, either. There ain't no way
they'd let a carpenter in. No status. And he couldn't afford the
downstroke or the dues. Besides, he'd probably want to carry the bag for
the caddy, which would embarrass everybody.''
	Well, this is all mere conjecture. In answer to your original
question, we have no way of knowing if God is a Republican, a Democrat,
an independent, or if he even takes an interest in such matters.
	``Then the Republicans ought to stop acting like he's one of them.
And if they keep doing it, the Democrats ought to say: `Hey, if God is a
Republican, how come his son was a Jewish liberal?'''
	Because we don't know that, either.
	``Come on. What about turning the other cheek when someone whacks
you? And loving your enemies. And giving hell to the money changers.
Hah! Put a blast on the money changers in the Republican platform and
the Dow Jones would drop 3,000 points.''
	Well, I don't think God should be an issue in the political campaign.
	``Me, either. And I bet God doesn't think so, too. So I wish he'd
send down a sign to the Republicans to lay off.''
	What kind of sign?
	``One Republican speechwriter and one bolt of lightning, and that
would be the end of it.''
	That would do it.
	``And if Dan Quayle is smart, he'll get off the course when it gets
cloudy.''
	
	(C) 1992 BY THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE
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% Subject: Mike Royko funny

	God is neither a Republican or a Democrat. God is a communist.
	A pure communist not to be confused with a Marxist. You just have 
	to look at how Jesus and His followers lived to know that. But I
	suspect that Jesus and Marx both agree that pure communism can't work 
	until the whole world is communist/christian.

			Alfred

Heard this on Mystery Science Theatre 3000 the other day...

"He's not dead, he's metaphysically challenged."

Jim

Acquaintance, n.:
	A person whom we know well enough to borrow from, but not well
	enough to lend to.
    
				-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

    'The other day when I was fixing up Mary's room at College, she wanted
    me to buy her a leather covered arm chair.  I did not think she needed
    it, and was going to refuse, when she coughed.  Immediately I thought
    "Now perhaps she will die of consumption, and then how I shall wish I
    had bought her that chair."  So forthwith I bought it.  And when it
    came home I said, "There daughter, thee coughed up that chair."  I tell
    thee this that thee may know what a foolish mother I am.  I tell the
    children that their Heavenly Father will have to give them their
    discipline, for their earthly parents have not the heart to do it.'

    	Hannah Whitall Smith, in a letter to Mrs. Henry Ford Barclay, dated
    	October 18, 1882.

>Acquaintance, n.:
>	A person whom we know well enough to borrow from, but not well
>	enough to lend to.
>    
>				-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
    
    What then is a person whom one knows well enough to lend to but not
    well enough to borrow from? I only borrow from close friends though I
    will and have lent money to those I know less well. I find that
    borrowing and lending work fine unless there is a problem with
    re-payment. At which time I expect friends to be more understanding.
    
    		Alfred

re: Note 98.50 by Alfred "Radical Centralist" 

>    What then is a person whom one knows well enough to lend to but not
>    well enough to borrow from? I only borrow from close friends though I
>    will and have lent money to those I know less well. I find that
>    borrowing and lending work fine unless there is a problem with
>    re-payment. At which time I expect friends to be more understanding.
    
"It is more blessed to give than to receive", but sometimes receiving is the 
more difficult of the two.

I have solved the "problem" with borrowing and lending by defining such limits 
that if I were never to be repaid, I would harbor no ill will.  I have *hope* 
of being paid back, but no expectation.

Peace,

Jim

    Hey, guys, cut out the serious discussions.  This is a lite topic!
    
    :-)  :-)
    
    -- Mike

Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio, replied: "You see, wire
telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat.  You pull his tail in New
York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles.  Do you understand this?
And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they
receive them there.  The only difference is that there is no cat."

	An old Jewish man reads about Einstein's theory of relativity
in the newspaper and asks his scientist grandson to explain it to him.
	"Well, zayda, it's sort of like this.  Einstein says that if
you're having your teeth drilled without Novocain, a minute seems like
an hour.  But if you're sitting with a beautiful woman on your lap, an
hour seems like a minute."
	The old man considers this profound bit of thinking for a
moment and says, "And from this he makes a living?"
    
				-- Arthur Naiman, "Every Goy's Guide to Yiddish"

    Here are the words to a song I learned at the Charlie King concert
    (Note 5.50) Sunday evening.  It has a very short shelf life:
    
    Clintons, we're the Clintons;  We're a modern liberal family...
    From the town of Little Rock,
    We'll make baby-boomer history...
    
    Hil'ry,
    	she's a lawyer and a wife;
    Chelsea,
    	will she ever get a life?
    
    When you're with the Clintons, you'll have an Al & Tipper, too, time;
    A Tipper, too, time;
    You'll have a gay old time!
    

Say, you know who the world's first bookbinders were?

Adam and Eve.

Yeah, s'true!  They developed the loose leaf system!

Yo, Yahweh!

Richard

    
    .57
    
    that figures...

    Know what a prude is??
    
    
    
    
    Why, it's a dried plubb, of course!
    
    

    From today's Calvin & Hobbes:
    
    Calvin and Susie are looking up at the sky.  Susie asks Calvin, "What
    do you think that cloud looks like?"  Calvin responds, "A bunch of
    suspended water and ice particles,...Why?"
    
    In the next frame, we see that Susie has left Calvin standing there
    alone.  Calvin remarks, "Everybody hates a literalist."

Hooray!! We're back!  (Thanks Bob)

Now.....I forgot what we were arguing about...  .-)  .-)  .-)

Peace,

Jim

You can always tell a real friend; when you've made a fool of yourself
he doesn't feel you've done a permanent job.

Before you borrow money from a friend, decide which you need more.

There's no traffic jam on the extra mile.

It is better to give than to lend, and it costs about the same.
 
Always borrow from a pessimist - a pessimist never expects to get it back.

Even when you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.

A chip on the shoulder is often a piece of wood that has fallen from the head.

The two hardest things to accept in life are failure and success.

We do not stop playing because we are old;  We grow old because we stop
playing.

Always do the right thing. This will gratify some people and absolutely
astonish the rest.

				   * * * * *

	RE: .62 I've always believed that lending is like playing games
	of chance. Both can be rewarding but one should never use money
	one can't afford to lose.

			Alfred

    Our pastor reports that while spell-checking his recent sermon
    his PC questioned the word "PASTORING".....
     
       "Not found--suggested substitutes--
                                          PASTURING
                                          PESTERING
                                          POSTURING"
    
     As Dave said,,,,,could they be trying to tell us something?
    
    Doug

[forwards deleted; cut short due to length]

IN THE BEGINNING

(To justify God's ways to the 21st century)

#In the beginning was the computer.  And God said

:Let there be light!

#You have not signed on yet.

:God.

#Enter user password.

:Omniscient.

#Password Incorrect.  Try again!

:Omnipotent.

#Password Incorrect.  Try again!

:Technocrat.

#And God signed on 12:01 a.m., Sunday, March 1.

:Let there be light!

#Unrecognizable command.  Try again!

:Create light.

#Done.

:Run heaven and earth.

#And God created Day and Night.  And God saw there were 0 errors.
#And God signed off at 12:02 a.m., Sunday, March 1.
#Approx. funds remaining: $92.50.

#And God signed on at 12:00 a.m., Monday, March 2.

:Let there be firmament in the midst of the water and

#Unrecognizable command!  Try again!

:Create firmament.

#Done.

:Run firmament.

#And God divided the waters.  And God saw there were 0 errors.
#And God signed off at 12:01 a.m., Monday, March 2.
#Approx. funds remaining: $84.60.

#And God signed on at 12:00 a.m., Tuesday, March 3.

:Let the waters under heaven be gathered together unto one place
 and let the dry land appear and

#Too many characters in string specification!  Try again.

:Create dryland.

#Done!

:Run dryland.

#And God created Earth and Seas.  And God saw there were
 0 errors.
#And God signed off at 12:01 a.m., Tuesday, March 3.
#Approx. funds remaining: $65.00.

#And God signed on at 12:00 a.m., Wednesday, March 4.

:Create lights in the firmament to divide the day from the night.

#Unspecified type.  Try again!

:Create sunmoonstars.

#And God created Sun, Moon, Stars. And God saw there were
 0 errors.
#And God signed off at 12:01 a.m., Wednesday, March 4.
#Approx. funds remaining: $54:00.

#And God signed on at 12:00 a.m., Thursday, March 5.

:Create fish.

#Done.

:Create fowl.

#Done.

:Run fish'nfowl.

#And God created the great seamonsters and every living creature
 that creepeth wherewith the waters swarmed after its kind and
 every winged fowl after its kind.  0 errors.
#And God signed off at 12:01 a.m., Thursday, March 5.
#Approx. funds remaining: $45:00.

#And God signed on at 12:00 a.m., Friday, March 6.

:Create cattle.

#Done.

:Create creepy things.

#Done.

:Now let us make man in our image.

#Unspecified type!  Try again.

:Create man.

#Done.

:Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it
 and have  dominion over the fish of the sea and over of the fowl
 of the air and over every living thing that creepeth upon the
 earth.

#Too many command operands!  Try again.

:Run multiplication.

#Execution terminated.  6 errors.

:Insert breath.

#O.K.

A young woman became very concerned because her husband wanted to
make love with her every Sunday morning.  This bothered her because she
didn't feel right about having sex the morning of taking communion.

So she asked her priest, "Is it alright for my husband and I to have sex
before taking communion?"

He replied, "Yes, as long as you don't block the aisle."

:-}

Richard

    
    
    
    :-)

The real reason Joseph and Mary had to return to Bethlehem...


That's where their HMO primary care physician was...

The daughter of our choir's baritone shared this one.

God rest you merry.

Jim

Could God create a rock so heavy that not even God could lift it?

Shalom,
Richard

re:  Note 98.69 by Richard  "On loan from God" 

Could God create a heart so cold that even Christ could not warm it?

the question popped into my mind while reading your question...

Jim

    re Note 98.69 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
    
    Of course! We, as humans, just don't understand how he could and still
    be omnipotent.  :^)
    
    Eric

    .71  Hmmmm.  You may be on to something there, Eric.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

(on our choir bulletin board)

Blessed Are...     
       A Choir Prayer for the New Year

Christians do not have a new year's resolution,
  They have blessed are...
It works the same in concept,
  yet without the guilt of broken resolutions.
Jesus started it all one afternoon on a mountain.
It had definite crowd appeal and is still popular today.
As we begin this new year, Lord,
  we offer you our own blessed are...
We ask for your grace and strength as we struggle with them:

-Blessed are those who always show up,
  for theirs is the peace and integrity of a faithful servant.
-Blessed are those who remember to 
  compliment others for a well-done effort,
  for they too shall succeed.
-Blessed are those who look at the director 
  instead of gluing their eyes to the notes,
  for they shall sing with sensitivity.
-Bless are those who mean the words they sing, and pray them,
  for they have the power to move the heart of their listener.
-Blessed are those who clearly pronounce their words,
  for they shall be understood and appreciated.
-Blessed are those who stay in pitch,
  for they shall be called blessed by the director!
-Blessed are those who do not shout but rather 
  sing in a spirit of full and powerful forte,
  for they shall be blessed with an understanding of praise.
-Blessed are those who sing in their range,
  for they shall be humble in the kingdom of heaven.

    Shofar, shogood!
    
    ;-"
    

Saw this in today's _Kudzu_ comic strip by Doug Marlotte...
Read it aloud for the best effect.


A parishioner is talking to the minister:

P:  "Our cosmic mother, which art in heaven..."

M:  I can't say that!

P:  You've got to stop using these gender specific
    descriptions of the Godhead like "Our Father"

M:  But cosmic mother is gender specific, too!

P: You say it Yahweh, and I'll say it Maweh.

    It is humorous, nonethless blasphemous though.

re: Note 98.76 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 

Well, I'm glad God has a sense of humor.  .-)

Jim, who didn't get blasted by a lightening bolt for typing it in.  .-)

    RE: .76
    
    That reminds me......I like a song by Martin Mull about have Jesus
    Christ in a football game against Satan. It was a takeoff on the 
    country western song "Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Goal Posts of
    Life".
    
    I played the song for a friend of mine....he didn't like it at all,
    implying that it was Blasphemous...me, I thought it was/is funny.
    
    Surely God has a sense of humor! Why else would he create man and woman
    with the differences there are!
    
    Marc H.

    >Humor is Sorely Needed 
     
    Yeah, I'd agree... but Sore Humor is Not Needed.
    
    :-)                         
    

    Please, take the following in the vein it was intended.  It is not
    to be taken seriously.  Enjoy.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    
>Subject: Catholic Mac vs Protestant DOS

>The following excerpts are from an English translation of Umberto 
>Eco's back-page column, "La bustina di Minerva," in the Italian 
>news weekly "Espresso," September 30, 1994.
>
>
>...."Insufficient consideration has been given to the new 
>underground religious war which is modifying the modern world.  
>It's an old idea of mine, but I find that whenever I tell people 
>about it they immediately agree with me.
>
>"The fact is that the world is divided between users of the 
>Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers.  I 
>am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that 
>DOS is Protestant.  Indeed, the Macintosh is counter-reformist 
>and has been influenced by the 'ratio studiorum' of the Jesuits.  
>It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how 
>they must proceed step by step to reach--if not the Kingdom of 
>Heaven -- the moment in which their document is printed.  It is 
>catechistic:  the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple 
>formulae and sumptuous icons.  Everyone has a right to salvation.
>
>"DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic.  It allows free 
>interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal 
>decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes 
>for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation.  To make 
>the system work you need to interpret the program yourself:  a 
>long way from the baroque community of revellers, the user is 
>closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment.
>
> "You may object that, with the palosely [??] the counter-
>reformist tolerance of the Macintosh.  It's true:  Windows 
>represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the 
>cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS 
>to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions; when it 
>comes down to it, you can decide to allow women and gays to be 
>ministers if you want to.....
>
>"And machine code, which lies beneath both systems (or 
>environments, if you prefer)?  Ah, that is to do with the Old 
>Testament, and is talmudic and cabalistic..."

    Gee, I wonder what that says about my female Episcopalian priest who
    owns a Mac?

Found on http://www.islandnet.com/~luree/contest.html

Here it is everyone:

The Mother Of All Contests!

Right here on the Internet, we will attempt to bring a final resolution to
all religious wars, controversy and hypocrisy.

The Rules

The rules are simple. Any religious organization in the world is invited to
enter their god. The various gods will be given three challenges to
fulfill. These challenges have been chosen because they represent typical
accomplishments of most of the present day gods, as well as historical
ones. In light of the various literary records, these challenges should be
very easy for any god to accomplish.

Only one entry per religion is allowed.

The winner will be the god who completes all three challenges in the least
amount of time.

Onlookers may cheer for their god by offering prayers, songs, epithets or
verbal abuse.

If your god fails to show, then followers are free to cheer for a more
conscientious alternative.

Notice: Representatives of local S.P.C.A.'s, Humane Societies and P.E.T.A.
will be on hand to ensure that no animals are killed or mutilated, even if
it is for some primitive sacrifice or common food ritual. God's creatures
are in no way to be adversely affected by this religious challenge.

Gods Not Entered

Gods who are unwilling, or unable, to enter this contest will forfeit the
right of their representatives to collect money, tithes, land, or any other
worldly possessions in their god's name.

The Prizes

The winning god will receive all money, possessions and property held by
churches, organizations and representatives of the losing gods. These
possessions will be distributed according to the whim of the winner. In
addition, in recognition of His/Her/Its superiority, the winning god will
be the sole recipient of prayers, entreaties, solicitations, petitions,
requests and other forms of begging from all the people in the world.

At the conclusion of this contest, the winner will attend a summit meeting
with the world's leaders to implement divine solutions to overpopulation,
pollution, corruption, greed, disease and other ills which plague
His/Her/Its creations.

In the eventuality that there is no winner, then all money, property and
possessions of all the religions in the world will be turned over to a
Committee of Common Sense for distribution to the betterment of conditions
of all living creatures. The committee will be made up of representatives
chosen especially for their honesty and integrity. All decisions of this
committee will be final and binding.

The Challenges

[Image]

Gods of any sex are invited. They need not demonstrate any specific skill
at lovemaking, or any parental responsibility. The virgin will be chosen
by the Committee of Judges and carefully examined to ensure her virginity
is in tact. The lady will be kept in total isolation for a period of three
months prior to allowing the challenging god to accomplish this task. She
will again be examined to make sure that she is definitely barren before
the god will be allowed to proceed. The virgin will be kept in isolation
for a period of nine months. This should give any god ample time to make a
holy child. The child may be of any sexual orientation but should be
observably human.

All food and sundries delivered to the maiden must be examined by the
Committee of Judges to ensure no turkey basters or other possible
insemination paraphernalia get smuggled in. The various gods must
impregnate their virgins without any outside assistance whatsoever.

[Image]

Any human corpse in a stage of putrefaction can be entered. The Committee
of Judges will examine the body to verify that it is actually dead. The
corpse will be locked in a private chamber, where it can be observed
objectively. Absolutely no one will be allowed inside the chamber. God must
be able to morph through the walls and enter the chamber if this is
required to perform the resurrection. The Committee of Judges will
determine when the deceased is a cognizant human being again. Revitalizing
hibernating hamsters does not count.

[Image]

This represents the practical part of the contest. Gods may pick A.) or B).

A.) Gods may chose to heal a physically handicapped person, chosen by the
Contest's Committee of Judges. This person will be an amputee. The god must
be able to demonstrate, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ability to perform
a miraculous healing by making the missing limb grow back. The limb must be
complete and functioning. It does not count if the handicapped person
exclaims, "I feel whole again!" There must be a total restoration of the
missing limb.

B.) Gods may choose to feed every starving person and creature in an
impoverished nation, chosen by the Contest's Committee of Judges. The food
must be abundantly apparent for one full year after the acceptance of this
particular challenge. The Contest's Committee of Judges will determine that
there are no hungry mouths in the chosen country.

[Image] Handicapper's Tip Sheet

Pick your champion using this informative scratch sheet , with our tipsters
rating the various gods. These statistics are presented so that you may
have fun determining which god will be the eventual winner. The Contest
Committee is in no way encouraging gambling on the eventual outcome of this
contest, where prohibited by law.

[Image] Bibliography

A bibliography is provided so you may read up on the qualifications of your
chosen god. Compare the attributes of your contender with those of other
religions. This could be an invaluable aid to predicting the eventual
winner. Additions to this list are gratefully accepted.

[Image] How You Can Help

What you can do while waiting for the contestants to assemble.

Caustic (and otherwise) Commentary from intelligent (and otherwise)
viewers.

[Image]

Seriously: If you feel that your god is up to the challenge, contact the
address above to arrange an impartial panel of judges to set up the
conditions of this contest.

    	Do you find this funny, Richard?

	It is "lite". :-)

    Ironically, Mormonism would consider this as plausible (not the
    contest), but the idea of multiple deities.
    
    -Jack

I thought it was amusing!

Steve

    It reminded me of an old testament story.  Wasn't there a contest with
    the Hebrew God winning by lighting a fire.  My memory is dim on this
    one.  Perhaps someone else can help.
    
                                            Patricia

    Yes, it was between Elijah and the prophets of Baal.  Elijah set up a
    sacrifice on the alter and the prophets also set up a sacrifice...to
    see which one would be accepted.  
    
    The prophets burnt incense, danced around...cutting themselves...the
    whole bit.  Elijah in his wisdom made sure his sacrifice was doused
    with water and a pool of water surrounded it.  He too petitioned his
    God and consequently, his sacrifice was consumed by fire.
    
    Following this, the nation of Israel was convinced of the One true God
    and put the prophets of baal to death.  Then Jezebel put a bounty of
    Elijahs head...and Elijah fled!  (Good rhyme!)
    
    -Jack

If God performed that type of miracle in the past to prove himself,
why won't he do it today?

Steve

    Steve:
    
    If you recall, Jesus after the resurrection said to doubting Thomas,
    "Blessed are you for seeing; but blessed are those who have not seen and
    yet believe."  All the signs God performed in the Old Testament were to 
    glorify himself to the nation of Israel; however, they were also a
    forshadowing of what was to happen, namely the coming of Jesus.
    
    Patricia and I discussed this part last week.  The pharisees approached
    Jesus one day and said, "If you truly are the messiah, give us a sign."
    Jesus replied bysaying something to this effect, "An evil and
    adulterous generation seeks a sign.  But no sign shall be given unto
    you except the sign of Jonah.  For as Jonah was in the belly of a fish
    three days, so shall the son of man be in the depths of the earth.
    (Referring to his three day burial before his resurrection). 
    Normally, the pharisees request was a sound one.  They were testing the
    spirits which is required in the Mosaic law.  However, the pharisees
    were opportunists and owned the religious powerbase at that time.  They
    had no interest in Jesus' messiahship.  They were only concerned about
    their position as religious leaders...and Jesus rebuked them on many an
    occasion.
    
    -Jack

    Puts the contest into a different perspective doesn't it.
    
    It is even biblical.

    As I replied last week,
    
    That is what Matthew said Jesus said.
    
    It is not what Mark said Jesus said!
    
    
    My point though is that Faith is very different than Magic.
     
    Regardless of what Jesus' exact words were, the message is that we are
    called to believe based on faith, and not on ANY absolute knowledge. 
    The Old Testaments magical stories are magical stories that made sense
    to a magical world view.  
    
    The Faith question for modern Christians is, what can the ressurection mean
    to those who do not live within a magical worldview!

    In Luke 16, Jesus said we have the Moses and the prophets and don't
    need signs.

    Patricia:
    
    All the more noble since I place faith in the Words of Jesus Christ.  
    Wouldn't doubting the Word of God be a lack of faith?
    
    -Jack

    	re .94
    
    	Exactly.  In Jack's .89 we see the people of that time needing
    	the concrete sign which was enacted theough Elijah.  The people
    	of that time didn't have Elijah scripture to draw from.  We
    	do.  How many signs do we need?  We have Jesus' resurrection --
    	the greatest one of all.  But we feeble-minded humans continue
    	to call for yet more signs.
    
    	No matter how big is one's closet, one always seems to fill
    	it and need still more space.  It's one of Murphy's laws.  :^)

.91 MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal"

    "Blessed are you for seeing; but blessed are those who have not seen and
    yet believe."

Jack,

Surely you must realize how much this sounds like a cop-out. If I were to claim
I could fly, you would say 'show me'. If I then said that if you needed to be
shown you weren't worthy of seeing it, I expect your reaction would be much 
closer to 'yeah, right' than to 'I guess he really CAN fly!'.

I believe it was Carl Sagan that said "Extrordinary claims require extrodinary
proof", and I agree with this concept. The claim to be the creator of the 
entire known universe *is* pretty extrordinary. Without the proof, and based on
the response to the doubting Thomas, faith is simply based on a willingness to
believe what someone else tells you is true, without any real evidence one way
or the other. This seems utterly illogical to me, especially for a being that 
could very easily prove his existence. He could do it in such a way that free
will still rules, and that men could still ignore him, but would KNOW what it 
was they were flouting.

Steve

.96 CSC32::J_OPPELT "He said, 'To blave...'"

    	the greatest one of all.  But we feeble-minded humans continue
    	to call for yet more signs.

To me, Joe, feeble-mindedness is believing something that has no proof,
or even much evidence. 

         How many signs do we need?

One would be a start.

        We have Jesus' resurrection -- the greatest one of all. 

No, you don't. You have an account of a resurrection from a book that
somebody else told you was true. You believe this account without any
concrete proof. There are dozens of ressurrection legends in many 
cultures, why don't you believe those? The question is rhetorical, I
think I am starting (after years of trying) to understand where faith
of this sort comes from.

Steve

    Steve,
    
    You are right that we have no proof of a physical ressurrection of
    Jesus.
    
    We do however have proof of the enormous impact that the story of that
    event, (real or mythical) has had on civilization.
    
    You or I do not have to accept a physical ressurrection to stand in awe
    at the power of the story.  I think it meaningless to dwell on Did
    Jesus really rise from the dead.  It it a critical defining question to
    ask, why did the collective memory(real or imagined) of that event
    become the defining event in Western Civilization.
    
                                     Patricia

    
>    You are right that we have no proof of a physical ressurrection of
>    Jesus.
 


   We have eyewitness accounts.



   
    

 ZZ     I think it meaningless to dwell on Did
 ZZ       Jesus really rise from the dead. 
    
    On the contrary, this is of the utmost importance to the Christian
    faith.  If Jesus had not risen from the dead, he would not have
    conquered death.  Had he not conquered death, he would not have
    conquered sin.  Had he not conquered sin, we would have no means of
    redemption.  No redemption, we die in our sin and face eternal
    separation from God.
    
    -Jack

.93> The Faith question for modern Christians is, what can the ressurection 
.93> mean to those who do not live within a magical worldview!

.99> We do however have proof of the enormous impact that the story of that
.99> event, (real or mythical) has had on civilization.


are you attributing the impact which jesus had only to the resurrection?

how much more extraordinary must siddharta and mohamed have been to have had
an impact on humanity WITHOUT overcoming death! 



andreas.

    That is one way of looking at it.  Another is that the ressurection is 
    a spiritual ressurrection and not a physical one.

true, tony barbieri's 1055.60 was most inspirational on the subject; still
chewing on it.

spirirtual resurrection is not the mainline christian view though, at least
as far as i can tell.



andreas.

    Andreas,
    
    I believe that Jesus' death and ressurrection is central to
    Christianity.  In honoring the fact that we cannot know what really
    happen, some scholars refer to the "ressurrection event".  The
    disciples seem to have been clearly changed by the event and the event
    has become the central symbol in Christianity.  It's meaning may not be
    crystal clear, but the symbol, the metaphor, the story are all part of
    a story powerful enough to have moved billions of people.
    
                                     Patricia

    re :.104
    
    
    I agree!
    
    But so what!  Who wants to be mainline anyway?

patricia,

just my personal opinion: i don't see the resurrection of christ as any more
or any less significant than the walking on water or the feeding of thousands.

these are all supernatural phenomena.

if jesus really declined to give any sign but for the sign of jona, why did
he perform all the other acts?

personally i think the message of jesus was probably much more human, much 
less spectacular and a lot more honest than what i have been educated to think
(and that's the mainstream version).


andreas.

    Rudolph Bultman who has gained the reputation as the Christian
    Theologian discussing the dymotholiging of Christianity, suggest that
    the worldview of people in the 1st century was a magical supernatural
    worldview.  He suggest that there is something unique and wonderful
    about the message even if we demytholigize it and express it in ways
    that make sense to a contemporary worldview.
    
    I believe that any person who was experienced any major trial in there
    life can understand in a spiritualized way, life, death, and
    ressurection.  I believe that is part of what sub consciously gives the
    Jesus Passion story the great appeal that it has.  We can live, die,
    and be ressurected with Christ!
    
                                   Patricia

    Yes, Patricia, I agree totally. I feel as if I don't need to write
    anything here, because you say everything I would say anyway! The
    real message of Christianity is not about rules but about the
    spirit. In fact, I think that staying too close to the rules is
    placing a barrier against God, because after all God is greater
    than any set of religious rules.
    
    Eileen

    Eileen:
    
    What rules are being brought forth here that you disagree with?  I
    don't see any rules.
    
    -Jack

    The general set of rules that say the Bible is meant to be interpreted
    literally.
    
    Eileen

    I find it a shame you don't reply here Eileen.  I would be interested
    in knowing exactly what parts aren't supposed to be interpreted
    literally...I mean, most here believe Jesus actually existed...so
    that's literal.  Ummmmm....Paul made three missionary journeys and went
    through specific trials and persecutions...that's literal.  I guess
    literal would have to depend on an individuals opinion...which would
    default to basing an assumption based on your individual outlook on
    life.  
    
    So potentially, you and Patricia, although likeminded, may find as you
    continue would be opposed to each other. 
    
    -Jack 

    Thanks Eileen,
    
    I appreciate that vote of confidence.
    
    I appreciate your speaking out too! 
    
                                       Patricia
    
    
                                    

re .111

btw, eileen, welcome to this forum!




andreas.

    Thanks for the welcome, Andreas. I was actually here before, but I
    was not a frequent contributor, and then I went out on disability
    for an entire year (RSI), so I'm sure most people won't remember
    me.
    
    Eileen

i hope you can stay longer this time. 
that is, that some job can be found.



andreas.

 <<< Note 98.98 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>

>        We have Jesus' resurrection -- the greatest one of all. 
>
>No, you don't. You have an account of a resurrection from a book that
>somebody else told you was true. You believe this account without any
>concrete proof. 
    
    	How do you know that George Washington led the Continental Army
    	to victory in the American Revolution?

re Note 98.117 by CSC32::J_OPPELT:

>     	How do you know that George Washington led the Continental Army
>     	to victory in the American Revolution?
  
        It's kind of like the answer to the creationists who claim
        that the universe may have been created by God to look much
        older than it is -- ultimately, you don't know.

        Bob

	Bob.... I almost got the impression that Joe was trying to show a
parallel between the Bible, and a history book. That would be too weird to have
it happen. Cuz everyone knows that history books aren't inerrant. Now if I had
said it, people would expect it. But from Joe? Joe, could you clear up what you
meant?

    	Ah.  I see you are taking up Joe-stalking again.  Glad to see
    	you back in form, Glen.

| <<< Note 98.120 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "He said, 'To blave...'" >>>

| Ah.  I see you are taking up Joe-stalking again.  Glad to see
| you back in form, Glen.

	Making aboservations is stalking? How nice.

.99 POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am"

    We do however have proof of the enormous impact that the story of that
    event, (real or mythical) has had on civilization.
    
I certainly can't argue with you here! The question, though, is was that 
impact an overall positive or an overall negative?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.100 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"

   We have eyewitness accounts.

We have eyewitness accounts for a lot of things, I'll bet you don't believe
them all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.117 CSC32::J_OPPELT "He said, 'To blave...'"

There is a lot of difference in believing in generalities and specifics. Do I
believe in a historical Jesus? Yes, there is enough evidence to point to his 
existence. Do I believe that George Washington threw a silver dollar across the
Potomac? Not really, it sounds like one of those stories that grow around men
like these. 

Joe, I don't demand absolute proof in all things. I look for reasonable proof.
Extraordinary claims, however, require extraordinary proof. The reason I don't
believe in the Christians' concept of God is that there are far too many 
inconsistencies in what God is supposed to be and what I see for me to take it
very seriously.

Steve

    (This is slightly paraphrased.  I read it in a magazine this morning.)

    A little girl whose family always said a prayer before meals was
    invited to a friends house for dinner.  Her mother, whose name was
    Grace, instructed her on manners, including not insisting that the other
    family pray.  So, when she was asked if she said grace at home she 
    replied, "No, I say 'mommy.'"

    I understand Buckwheat has converted to Islam.  He even changed his
    name to Kareem of Wheet.
    

    Q:  How many surreallists does it take to change a light bulb?
    
    
    
    
    A:  Fish