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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

25.0. "Reform vs Dispensationalist?" by SWAPIT::LAM () Tue Sep 25 1990 19:24

    Can someone explain *clearly* and *level-headedly* what the difference
    between reformed theology and dispensationalist theology is? 
    Apparently whenever I hear it discussed, people get very emotional and
    one side considers the other to be wrong and vice versa.  All I want to
    know is what they are.  I not to well versed in theology to begin with
    so a lot of the stuff sounds ivory-towerish to me.  So what's the
    difference????
    
    ktlam....
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25.1DispensationalismSNOFS1::CLARKEYahweh ! - I'm here to say I Believe Him !Wed Sep 26 1990 10:3332
Well,
	I don't know about `reformed' theology, unless it's to do with the
`Reformation' (Martin Luther,and all that), but Dispensational Theology
basically states something along the lines of...

The can be seen in the Bible a number of Dispensations, or Ages, in which God
relates to Mankind in a unique way.  For example, the two most obvious are:
the Old Testament, and the New Testament ages.  The major proponents of
Dispensationalism are CI Scofield (of Scofield Reference Bible fame) and 
Charles L Feinberg.  Their theology dates back to JN Darby (of France - I think)
during the 19th CE.

The basic Dispensations they determine are:
    Innocence - Before the Fall in the Garden of Eden Gen 1:28 
    Moral Responsibility - After the Fall to the Flood Gen 3:7 
    Human Government - Flood to Abraham Gen 8:15
    Promise - Abraham to Exodus Gen 12:1
    The Law - Exodus to Christ Ex 19:1
    Church Age - Christ to present (and future) Acts 2:1
    The Millenial Kingdom - 1000 year reign of Christ after the Church Age
    Rev 20:4
	
    Scofield states that "The purpose of each dispensation, then, is to
    place man under a specific rule of conduct, but such stewardship is not
    a condition of salvation.  In every past dispensation unregenerate man
    has failed, and he has failed in this preent dispensation, and will in
    the future.  But salvation has been and will continue to be available
    to him by God's grace through faith." (New Scofield Reference Bible -
    1967 edition, Oxford Uni Press - 1970)
There is much more to this, but hopefully this is a reasonable overview.
								      hazza :*]
    
25.2A little more on dispensationalismXLIB::JACKSONCollis JacksonWed Sep 26 1990 14:1718
Another quick note about dispensational theology is that it holds that
God has differing expectations and differing roles for people in the
differing dispensations.  One particular area which is controversial today
is the role of the gifts of God.  Dispensationalists on the whole believe
that some gifts are not "active" today (e.g. tongues).  

A second major
area is that dispensationalism is *committed* to the idea that the Church
is *not* Israel, i.e. that the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled
by physical Israel, not the body of believers known as the Church.  

Dallas Theological Seminary is the main "dispensational" seminary.  All
students must commit to accepting despensationalism to graduate.

Personally, I accept some of what dispensationalism says and reject
other parts of it.

Collis
25.3OK, so now what's reformed?SWAPIT::LAMWed Sep 26 1990 15:1510
    re: .2
    
    Thanx for you're replies.  But I'm still curious about reformed
    theology?  A friend of mine is a graduate of Dallas Theological, from
    what I heard it's a very good school.  But this one pastor I know
    criticized her for going to a school that taught an incorrect
    interpretation of the Bible and he's supposed to be a reformed
    theologian.
    
    ktlam...
25.4A little more about DallasXLIB::JACKSONCollis JacksonWed Sep 26 1990 18:576
Yes, Dallas Theological Seminary is a very good school (academically).
Many churches are wary of their graduates, however, because they tend
to fit into a mold (because of the school theology requirement).  Their
graduates are considered very solid, Biblically and conservative.

Collis
25.5REFORMEDRAVEN1::WATKINSFri Oct 26 1990 23:5314
    I WAS at one time a Reformed Baptist.  The Reformed doctrine is based
    on the doctrines of the reformers in Germany, France, and England. 
    This also takes in the doctrines of the Puritans.  The main doctrine
    that reformers hold to that upsets many others is the doctine of 
    predestination, ie. the five points of Calvinism.  There are many
    different groups of reformers.  Some are Baptist, Presbyterians,
    Anglican, and Methodist.  However, on the doctrine of predestination
    they all agree.  Now I am not saying that all Baptist, Presbyterians,
    Anglican, and Methodist are Reformers.  There are branches of these
    groups that are reformed.
    
    
    
                                Marshall
25.6QuestionANKH::SMITHPassionate committment/reasoned faithFri Oct 26 1990 23:561
    What are the five points of Calvinism?
25.7RAVEN1::WATKINSSat Oct 27 1990 03:503
    
    
    
25.8oh, I get it: if I were in the elect, I'd know! :-;XANADU::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)Sat Oct 27 1990 09:5612
re Note 25.7 by RAVEN1::WATKINS:

> 
>     
>     
  
        Marshall,

        I know that there's got to be more to the five points of
        Calvinism that that!	:-}

        Bob  
25.9TULIPXLIB::JACKSONCollis JacksonMon Oct 29 1990 15:159
The acronym TULIP is used for the 5 points of Calvanism.  Since I've never
studied this (and since the last time I talked about this was about 3
years ago), I don't remember what these letters stand for.  I'm sure someone
else will know.

Collis

P.S.  As I remember it when discussing these points, I agreed with some and
disagreed with others.
25.10John WesleyXLIB::JACKSONCollis JacksonMon Oct 29 1990 15:164
By the way, Methodism is *NOT* based on pre-destination, but is rather
in the "free-will" camp as John Wesley made so abundantly clear.

Collis
25.11AgreedANKH::SMITHPassionate committment/reasoned faithMon Oct 29 1990 20:083
    re: .10
    
    Yes, you are definitely right about that!
25.12TULIPSWAPIT::LAMTue Nov 06 1990 14:1413
    The acronym TULIP stands for the following:
    
    Total depravity
    Unconditional atonement
    L
    Irresistible grace
    Perserverance of the saints
    
    It represents the five points of Calvinism.
    
    ktlam...
    
    ps -- oops!  I forgotten what the L stood for.
25.13And now the rest of the storyCSOA1::REEVESDavid Reeves, Cleveland, OHTue Nov 06 1990 16:0822
25.14gotta get a bigger dictionaryDELNI::MEYERDave MeyerTue Nov 06 1990 18:542
    Total Depravity, eh ?  Sounds like fun.  Total Moral Corruption, or is
    it Total Debasement (lowering of character, quality or value)?  ;-)
25.15TULIP for sure!!!!SWAPIT::LAMWed Nov 07 1990 13:4916
25.16WHITFIELD WAS A CALVINIST MEHODISTRAVEN1::WATKINSWed Jan 16 1991 21:159
      Some Methodist groups DO hold to predestination.  They followed a 
    famous Methodist preacher named Whitfield.  Most of this group is found
    in Britian.   Whitfield was a Calvinist Methodist.   Because John
    Wesley came to the U.S.  Most if not all Methodist groups here are
    those that believe free will.
    
    
                                Marshall