Conference koolit::disney

    Disney's various Amusement parks are considered to be 'Themed Amusement
    Parks' and because  of  that  are  not  your  run of the mill 'Thrill a
    Minute Amusement Park' that  you  may  be  accustomed to.  If your only
    interested in the 'Thrill a  minute'  type  of  ride, then you might be
    better  of  spending  your  money  elsewhere,  and  save  yourself  the
    possibility    of  disapointment,  otherwise  you  need  adjust    your
    expectations.
    
    Disney rides (or for  a better term attractions) are themed in a way to
    activate most if not all of  your  senses  when  experiencing  a  given
    attraction.  
            
    For example Thunder Mountain, although really a steel roller coaster in
    discuise, is built into a man-made mountain with a variety of sights to
    be enjoyed along the way, like the flodded mining town or  the  variety
    of antiques scattered around.

    World of Energy  pavilion  in  Epcot,  not  only plays on your sense of
    sight and hearing but  smell  as  well with the aroma of a real volcano
    nearby.
    
    Most of Disney attractions (with a few exceptions) fall into one of the
    following two catogories.
    
        Sit  down  theather  presentation  (such  as  Country Bear Vacation
            Hoe-down, American  Adventure  etc.)  which  operate  at  fixed
            intervals.
    
        Continuously moving ride  (such  as  Hauted Mansion, Pirates of the
            Carribean, SpaceShip Earth etc.),  which is either some sort of
            boat ride, or continously moving cars,  on  which  you  need to
            step onto a moving conveyor belt in order to enter the car.

    Because  of  the nature of the attractions in Epcot, some people usualy
    kids  feel  that  they  are being educated and are sometimes turned off
    because of  this.  (I'm on vacation and want to have fun, otherwise why
    did you take me out of school dad?)
    
    What makes the  Disney  parks  unique  also, are the cleanliness of the
    parks, and their attention  to  detail.    Pay  attention to the second
    story windows along mainstreet, and see the names of real  life  Disney
    Cast  Members listed as the proprietor of a given establishment, or  to
    the signs in the cemetery off to the left side of the  waiting  area at
    the Hauted Mansion.  Also notice the detail in gardening thoughtout the
    parks, along with the various nooks and crannies where on a hot day you
    can sit a spell  away  from the hustle and bustle and relax, as well as
    the wide pathways in which  you  travel  from one attaction to another.
    Also if there is a show going on in the street, such as a parade or the
    theather  group  at  the United Kingdom pavilion  in  Epcot,  you  only
    hear/see whats going on in front of you.   Some of the things I dislike
    about my trip to Wonderland just outside of Toronto a few years ago (as
    well  as  other  parks),  is  that  in  a middle of a given show,  some
    loudspeaker behind me  would  blast  the announcement of some show that
    was about to start  at  the other end of the park, the narrow pathways,
    and the very few benches  etc  where  you could just sit down and relax
    (of course by then I was  spoiled  by  the  Disney  Magic  and  tend to
    compare every other park to Disney). 
    
    With the new Star Tours (Disneyland in CA.   and  planed Studio Tour in
    Fa.)  and  the  Body  Wars  (Wonder of Life pavilion) simulators,  will
    probably  bring Disney into the thrill crowd.  

    Disney-MGM Studio Tour will even carry this themed idea a step further,
    don't be surprised if a Disney Cast Member asks  you for your autograph
    as you walk down hollywood boulevard, or asked you if  you  wish to buy
    some idea from a suitcase etc.
    
    Anyway I think you can get the idea, if anyone else  has  something  to
    add please feel free to do so.

    Please use this topic to discuss what it is that you like/dislike about
    the Disney experience that sets it apart from other amusement parks.
    
    CLaude

    Had this in #34 in refernce to other parks, but I figured I'd move 
    it......
        
    Actually, I get depressed when I go to amusement parks like King's
    Dominion now *because* of Disney.
    
    Sure, they have few "scary" rides, but they are ususally dirty and
    smelly, the rides are usually these big unattractive iron monoliths,
    and the workers are lackadaisical.  And after you ride the coasters,
    what else is there?  
    
    I love rollercoasters, but I'll still take Disney anyday for a much
    more *overall* enjoyment.
    
SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

    
    One thing I think people who are going to travel to WDW should avoid
    is over-anticipation. (I'm guilty of it though)
    
    If you go in with the attitude that "Everything is going to be the
    best experience that I've ever had" and "Nothing in WDW will disapoint
    me, I will love everything"  then you will surely be somewhat let
    down.
    
    Be excited about your trip, but don't over do it.  You're trip will
    be much more enjoyable if you don't expect the World of WDW.  (although
    they do usually give you the World and then some)
                              
    Steve O

    I second Steve's comments, in fact I usually tell people to be prepared
    to experience an amusement parks, that others try to duplicate but just
    haven't quite figured out how to  yet.  And also try and free your mind
    of  your any over anticipation (unless of  course  your  a  multi  time
    visitor ;^)) and just let the experience happen.
    
    One of the reasons that WDW is my  favorite  place  is  that all of the
    27,240  acres  that make of WDW was planed with  the  family  in  mind,
    there's  plenty to do without even having to go into  the  Parks,  like
    golfing,  fishing,  swiming,  horseback    riding,   canoeing,  tennis,
    watersking, shoping, etc.
    
    Claude

    I'm always fascinated by anyone who isn't as overwhelmed by WDW
    as I am.  It is such a complete and total escape from reality. 
    In my opinion, adults appreciate WDW much more than the kids because
    the kids accept everything they see without realizing the work and
    the know how behind every attraction.  
    
    We're going again in December with a friend who has never been to
    WDW, and I'm really looking forward to seeing her reaction.  If
    she's not as impressed as I am, I'll have to smack her!! :^)

rep to <<< Note 82.6 by MAGIC1::FORTIN >>>

>    I'm always fascinated by anyone who isn't as overwhelmed by WDW
>    as I am.  It is such a complete and total escape from reality. 

    Along the same lines, about 2 months ago, my brother in-law asked me to
    provide him with some info on going  to WDW since his never been.  So I
    proceded to tell him various stuff, along with  giving  him  my  latest
    Birnbaum book and MKC guide.  Well he already  knew  when  he was going
    down  (2  week in December), he was going to drive  and  possibly  camp
    (tent)  or  stay  in  a  hotel.    So  I  tell  him about Disney's Fort
    Wilderness is  a great place to camp, and the new Carribean Beach Hotel
    for prices etc.   I  tell him, all it's going to cost him was one night
    lodging, and as long as  you cancel prior to 5 days arrival you get all
    your money  back  what  could  go  wrong.  I tell him about the MKC (He
    works for Sanders/Lockheed  and mention oh we have that too) He was all
    hyper and ready to go.
    
    Well  since  we'll be going to the Elk's Dinner/Dance this  weekend  in
    Nashua NH, (he's the member, I'm the Guest).  I went  to go pay/pick up
    the  ticket  last  week,  and  asked  Did  you  decide  and  make those
    reservations yet?  Well  no actually, we decided to spent money on this
    and that..  So I  tell him, if you stay at FW it'll only cost you about
    $35 to reserve and the Carribean  about  $80  to  reserve,  and you can
    always cancel and get you money back,  if  you decide you can't stay on
    WDW property when you go, and if you can do it you'll be happy you have
    the dates you want. He then proceeds to give me other excuses.
    
    I gave up on him trying to sell WDW  etc.    Do  other's  have the same
    problem when asked for advice?
    
    Claude

    Claude,
    
        I think we all have those "black sheep" in our families or circle
    of friends.  I have a sister, who has a 4 year old boy.  They've
    been to Florida, WDW, more time in the past 2 years than anyone
    I know.  Her husband travels alot and with the frequent flier miles
    he has they always seem to be going some place.  I believe they've
    been to WDW 4 or 5 times in the past 2 years.  
        All they do is complain how WDW is OVER rated and not worth
    the money, not really special, etc, etc.  They even said they liked
    Boardwalk/Baseball City and Cypress Gardens more!!! Can you believe
    it?  Some people just really miss the point when it comes to WDW.
    
    Tony

    
    re .9
    
    Tony,
    
    Why don't you inquire why they go back 4 or 5 times every two years
    if its so over rated ?
      
    
    I agree with ALL OF YOU ! This trip for me will be 12 nights, the
    longest I've spent there yet (all on-site) and I have to wonder
    if that's enough to "really see" all things, including the major
    high light items more than once. Just remember that a lot of 
    folks have different "tastes" and "styles" and taking the 'time'
    to see everything may not be their forte'.
    
    I'm only sorry that I can't live forever to see "disney" in the
    really distant future.
    
    Mark, dedicated Diz-holic
    
    

    re:    last  3, Glad I'm not the only Disneyholic that gets  frustrated
    with relative/friends  after being ask for advice (since I'm been there
    before and can't  seem  to stop talking about it when asked How did you
    like WDW?), and then seem to completely ignore it, etc.  The wife and I
    decided to ask for the  guide  books back and not offer any more advice
    unless of course they beg (after all I did  spend over an hour with him
    discusing tips etc.),  and  let  them  find out for themselves what the
    Disney  Experience is all about, and wish they had probably follow  the
    advice about early reservations etc.  I hate to be cruel but  you  have
    to live with relatives, if you know what I mean.
    
    CLaude

    Claude,
    
    You sound like my husband!  Whenever anyone asks him about WDW,
    he can go on and on for hours.  
    
    His standard reply whenever anyone says they thought it was over
    rated, they wouldn't go back, too expensive, etc., is "That's great!
    That's one less person in front of me in line the next time we go."

rep to   <<< Note 82.12 by MAGIC1::FORTIN >>>
    
>    You sound like my husband!  Whenever anyone asks him about WDW,
>    he can go on and on for hours.  

    Yes, I  do  get carried away at times, and now will only mention WDW to
    someone if they ask me for advice.  Sometimes the wife will tell me 'if
    you say one more word we are leaving tomorrow' (my cue to shut the h##l
    up, ;^))
        
>    His standard reply whenever anyone says they thought it was over
>    rated, they wouldn't go back, too expensive, etc., is "That's great!
>    That's one less person in front of me in line the next time we go."

    Hey that's my line! ;^)
    
    Claude

    Here a little observation for  those  who are planning a trip to WDW or
    Disneyland etc. for the first time with Teenage kids.
    
    One thing I hear all the  time, is that Disney's parks are designed for
    the young Child or Adult in mind and that Teenagers rarely seem to have
    fun while vacationing with the Family at WDW.  What I have noticed when
    talking  to  other people here in Salem about their  trips  with  their
    Teenage kids to WDW or Disneyland, is that the families  seem  to  fall
    into 2 catogories,
    
    1.  The families  have been going to either location with the Kids over
    the  years,  and  by the  time  the  kids  become  Teenagers  they  are
    accustomed to the Disney style of Parks and still have manage to have a
    good  time etc, and it's the kids who keep asking when will we be going
    back dad?.
    
    2.  The family finally gets to go to WDW for the  first  time,  and the
    kids being Teenages have  the impression the the Magic Kingdom etc.  is
    for children and because of  that  don't  seem  to  have  a  good  time
    (otherwise they feel others will think their  not mature).  Also people
    tell me that the kids felt that at  Epcot  they were being educated and
    if they  wanted  to  be educated they would of stay in school etc.  and
    next time you  go  to WDW Dad can I go to Fort Lauderdale insted?  (you
    get the idea)
    
    Keeping this in mind, families that go for the first time to WDW,  when
    the  kids  are  in their teens may come back feeling that the parks are
    Overated, Not enough Thrill ride to keep the Teens adrenalin going etc.
    
    Do other multi-time WDW/Disneyland  visitors get the same impression or
    am I reading to much into this?
    
    Claude

    re .14
    I think what you have said is a bit to general as to say this about
    "teenagers".  There are always 2 sides to every story.
    
    The last time I went, I think I was about 16.  I had a great time!
    I was in awe of what made WDW tick.  I also have never had any trouble
    acting a bit childish (in a good way) when I get inside the boundries
    of the Magic Kingdom.
    
    My sister on the other hand, who was about 12 at the time, was
    determined to ruin the trip for the rest of us.  Nothing was good
    enough for her.  She would have rather been home watching eMpTyV
    or talking on the phone, and she let us know every oportunity she
    could.  
    
    My advice:  If you have a teen that doens't want to go, then leave
    them home with plenty of food and water.  But don't assume that
    a teenager will hate it, and don't assume that they will love it.
    
    Steve O

rep to <<< Note 82.15 by EUCLID::OWEN "You Are the Everything" >>>

>    I think what you have said is a bit to general as to say this about
>    "teenagers".  There are always 2 sides to every story.

    I'm just basing my observations on what I have heard talking to people.
    My son is currently 10, and for our next official planned visit will be
    13  (althought that could always change ;^), I'm tossing an idea around
    right now, I've got the bug, but can't quite figure why ;^)), so I hope
    he'll still enjoy it.  Every time I say, is it ok if Mom and Dad go and
    you stay behind?  I get this look that says if looks could kill, I'd be
    dead on eye contact.  ;^)
        
>    My advice:  If you have a teen that doens't want to go, then leave
>    them home with plenty of food and water.  But don't assume that
>    a teenager will hate it, and don't assume that they will love it.

    A couple of the  folks  I know who brought the teens for the first time
    and came  back  with the teens hating it, went because the teens bugged
    the parents to go  because  all  of  their friends had gone.  They just
    apparently had the wrong impression or  something.    I also agree with
    leaving them behind if they don't want  to go, I've been on a few trips
    with my parents in which I wished I  had stayed behind, of course I was
    brought up not to spoil others fun, and learned to suffer in peace else
    take a little trip with dad ;^(.
    

>    My advice:  If you have a teen that doens't want to go, then leave
>    them home with plenty of food and water.  But don't assume that
>    a teenager will hate it, and don't assume that they will love it.
    
>    Steve O



I have to agree with Steve.  If they don't want to go, they're probably
going to make it miserable for you.  I remember (it wasn't *that* long
ago) no matter how much I enjoyed something after being forced to go, I
would insist that I hated it because I wanted my parents to know that I
was capable of making my own opinions about something and they couldn't
force me to change that opinion.  (What a brat, eh?!  ;->)

My brothers and I always enjoyed WDW at all ages.  I remember, at times
though, not wanting to be seen with Mom and Dad beside us.  But Mom and
Dad were pretty good about that, too.  They'd go sit somewhere and would
tell us to meet them there after the ride.  That way, we'd be standing
in line ourselves without "the folks" standing over us, but they could
still keep an eye on us.

But there are so many different attractions and things to do.  I didn't 
always want to do things my brothers wanted to do (I was afraid to go on 
Space Mountain then), and there were things I wanted to go on that they 
didn't.  So we'd split up from time to time; Mom and I would go off and 
do some stuff while Dad went with the boys elsewhere.  Then Dad and I 
would go to the Hall of Presidents while Mom took the boys to some other 
attraction.  That way, we felt like we were able to do some things 
"separately" and other things "together".

But, as I said, we always have enjoyed Disney World anyway.  As for Ep-
cot, it wasn't there when I was in my teens.  But I would think that if
you didn't make it sound so "educational", then it wouldn't be that bad
either.  After all, the 3-D "Captain Eo" movie with Michael Jackson is
not something I'd call "educational" - it's a lot of entertainment.  And
the skit with Ben Franklin and Samuel Clemens in the American theater is
great entertainment too.  It's just that it has a lot of history and in-
formation attached.  I think a lot of it is how it's presented to them.

    
    On my last visit, our "clan" consisted of 3 adults and 3 teenagers.
    We basically made the "kids" stay with us until we had visited all
    the major theme parks and attractions at least once. The kids were
    12, 12 and 13. After which, we put our trust in them and let them
    spend the "remainder" of the vacation (2 or 3 days) to go where
    they wanted on their own, with some "recommended" rules and cautions.
    
    All in all, there were no problems and everyone got to do pretty
    much what interested them the most. The point I found to be true
    about teens (remember when you were one !) is that they are beginning
    to develop "some independence" and usually respect it when you give
    them some "leeway". They have interests that are usually different
    from your own and it also helps to be sure that THEY HAVE SOMEONE
    THEIR OWN AGE "ALONG" (such as a friend, not a brother or sister). 
    
    WDW has "something" for everyone, if you look for it and give everyone
    their chance to find it. Just be sure not to shove "your" interests
    down thier throats. I see a lot of adults at all forms of amusement
    parks that thrive on "dictating" what "we should all enjoy". The
    varied interests in this conference alone should be evident enough.
         

    Mark
    

    My daughter is an "older teen" and an only child.  She just 
    turned 17 last month.  We first visited WDW when she was 14 and
    brought her girlfriend.  I'm a really overprotective mother, but
    I felt very comfortable letting them go off on their own at WDW.
    We were staying at the Royal Plaza so they just had to take the
    bus back to the hotel.    
    
    Our last visit, in March, we brought her boyfriend, and the parks
    hadn't lost their magic for them.  Both of them had a great time.
    We're going again in December, and they are both really looking
    forward to this trip also.
    
    I'd be shocked if she said she didn't want to go, but I've been
    lucky, my daughter never minded going on vacations with us.  If
    we were going anywhere, she wanted to go too!
     

    I am 25 years old and my first trip to Disneyworld was in October
    of 1988.  I always wanted to go ever since I was a kid, and when
    my fiance' asked me where I wanted to go for a honeymoon, I requested
    Disneyworld.  I seen all the hype for years and years, but beleive
    me I was totally amazed with the place, and yes, very impressed.
     Disney is everything I though it would be and more.  I can't wait
    to go back!!! And yes, I was not afraid to act like a kid (I went
    on all the kiddee rides in Fantasyland and loved 'em all), it is
    the right attitude to have when you visit Disney, you have to let
    your hair down and have fun, and you definately will!!!!
    
    Lynne S who wants to go back!!!!

    In reading the first few entries to this note I thought I'd pass this
    along to see if anyone has had this experience.
    
    In planning my upcoming trip a year ago I too would ramble on regarding
    WDW and right around October 1989 my sister tells me that she, her
    hubby and 11 year old son are thinking of going (for the first time) in
    early April.
    
    Like any self-respecting Disneyholic I asked her about her plans, where
    they were staying, etc. They HADN'T made plans yet, didn't have the
    foggiest idea of where they were going to stay, what it would cost, or
    anything else. They were going to depend upon a friend of there's to
    book them a package.
    
    Well, December comes and they decide they would like to be there about
    the time we are (so my sister can celebrate my 40th birthday with me in
    WDW). Comes January and we've already got our reservations iced and
    they still had not done anything. When I asked what they were planning
    to do the response was "Well we'll play it by ear."
    
    Remember, these people have NEVER been to Fla. much less WDW so they
    were not in tune to what type of planning is necessary to make for an
    enjoyable trip. Although I've offerred all the advice and help they
    would need not a question has been asked of me.
    
    Has this happened to anyone else? That is, is it as difficult for
    other WDW veterans to get across the necessity to plan WDW vacations
    far in advance and to make sure you get the kind of info you need to do
    what you want down there?
    
    I just can't imagine anyone planning a WDW vacation by the seat of
    their pants.
    
    Here it is April 20th and they still haven't secured any plans.
    
    Actually, it will probably turn out best for me because they are
    neither earlybirds nor Disneyholics like me and my kids. We'll be up
    and out of our room early, in the parks and doing all kinds of WDW
    "stuff" til the wee hours whereas they'll want to sleep in til
    (shudder) 9 or 10 before getting up for breakfast. 
    
    Does anyone else have any similar experiences?
    
    Mike_who_will_turn_40_in_WDW_in_84_days 

    It's a good thing that I'm a planner, or we would be in the same
    situation as your relatives. My husband REFUSES to plan anything for
    any vacation; it's up to me to make all arrangements. Without this
    file, though, I don't think I would have known how much planning I 
    should be doing, such as what park to go to and what attractions to
    see in what order on which day. 
    
    I was mainly convinced, though, by having spent one day in December in 
    EPCOT. It was a last minute completely unplanned trip. We wasted a lot 
    of the time trying to figure out what we wanted to do, rather than doing 
    it. We really didn't get good value for our time investment. Without that
    experience, though, I don't think you could have convinced me that
    planning was important. I looked at it like a trip to Canobie Lake --
    a few rides, wander around the park, no big deal. 
    
    You probably won't be able to convince them until they've wasted a day
    or two, then compare what they accomplished to what you saw. My mother
    used to travel like they do  -- never made reservations, then was
    disappointed she couldn't stay where she wanted to. Used to drive me
    nuts!! I guess that's why I'm such a planner. 
    
    
    Linda

    Rep to <<< Note 82.21 by COEM::SCOPA "MAJOR" >>>

    Mike,
    
    see my .7,  sounds  like  my  brother  in-law, they ended up not going,
    never did hear their  last  excuse  or  was I tempted to ask, since the
    wife and I got totally  disgusted  with them.  I don't know but when it
    comes to my wife side of the family, they just don't seem to comprehend
    nor want to, when it comes to a WDW vacation.

    Back in '83 I was talking to one of my brother's  and  his  wife,  They
    were asking me about WDW, they wanted to go and were begining to plan a
    trip.  They  ended  up  suggesting  that wouldn't it be fun if both our
    families go together.   Wife  and  I look at each other and say why not
    (didn't take much, since we were talking about going down in a  year or
    so  anyway  and  didn't  have  a  date  set), and proceded to reserve a
    Tree-house Villa for the six of us.   Well 3 months prior to going they
    chickened out, I called Disney to see if  any  rooms  were available at
    either  the Poly/Contemp/Golf and there were none available for  the  9
    nights we  wanted,  unless  we  went  the waitlist route (we were still
    going, we had  the  bug  damn  it).    Luckily  for  us my parents were
    planning another Winter sojourn at my Aunts  place  in  Lady  Lake, and
    they were interested in spending some time at  WDW so everything worked
    out for the best.  (That'll be the last  time  I  plan  a vacation with
    them, and they stared it to boot)
        
    My  next  trip  my other Brother and Sister In-law (not  the  same  one
    above, I have 4) wants to come along  with  us (the only one on my side
    who haven't been yet) and are leaving the trip  planing  to  me,  since
    it's their first time and wanted to visit WDW with someone who has been
    before (kind of like a freebee guide service).  Once I  get off my duff
    and talk to the school official's at the school my son goes  to, to see
    if they  have  the  '91/'92  calendar  ready, I'll make my reservation.
    They decided to break tradition in Manchester NH this year and have the
    Spring Vacation follow the  week after Fast Day ;^(, otherwise I'd have
    my reservation now.
    
    Claude
    
    

    Len,
    
    BINGO! You hit it right on the head with that "Uhh Disney World, I
    guess".
    
    I think that if more people took the time to find out all the avenues
    of enjoyment available then they would really appreciate what Disney
    has created down there.
    
    The first thing that comes out of my mouth when people ask me about WDW
    is "Get Birnbaum's book" and then I proceed with other bits of
    information.
    
    I had a big crowd over my house XMAS eve, including the aforementioned
    sister and family. Another family there constantly asked me questions
    and, like many in here, were more than happy to talk about Disney. They
    were firsttimers and were soaking up all the info I was giving them,
    being careful not to give them any strong personal recommendations
    (good or bad) in case their tastes differed from mine.
    
    I told them to get the Birnbaum book which they did. Well, they leave
    tomorrow morning for 6 days and they are so happy that they asked me
    and got "The Bible". With just 6 days done there they know exactly what
    they will be doing and when. I suggested they do non-Disney stuff on
    Monday because of the crowd factor. They are prepared.
    
    And Claude, I'll bet the farm that my sister does not end up going too and
    that's too bad. I think that firsttimers who DON'T PLAN ACCORDINGLY and
    underestimate WDW need to experience it....then come back and compare
    notes with someone who did do their homework and plan ahead. I think
    it's then and only then that the firsttimers will truly understand
    that, unlike any other vacation spot in the world, this place needs
    some serious vacation plans.
    
    I think my frustration stems from not having the ability to snap my
    fingers and have people see WDW the way I see it. There is no
    substitute for being there........or reading this conference.
    
    Mike

    Since I have been several times and my kids have lots of friends I am
    constantly being asked for advice on WDW. The first thing I do is send
    them out to buy "THE BIBLE". Then I hit them with personal info.
    
      My sister is one who will plan but won't listen to any advice. I did
    find a way to cure that though. I showed her some of the more detailed
    trip reports and the little light bulb went on. She ended up having a
    great time.

    I guess I have to assume the opposing opinion.  While we plan where
    to stay, we're basically free lancers.  I know there are things we just
    haven't seen yet at the magic kingdom.  I'm also the one who doesn't
    favor bumbiler's bible.  I guess I just like 'discovering'. If
    some is going to tell me how the movie ends, I don't see any point
    in watching the movie.  I am glad that there was no Disney conference,
    bumbiler' bible and the like when I took my first trip.
    Of course that was then.  I enjoy this confernce and talking with people
    who have returned.  
    
    ed
    

    Sorry Ed,
    
    	    I gotta toe the line with the majority on this one. 
    Without Notes and Birnbaum, I would never have even heard of Fort 
    Wilderness, let alone stayed there! I don't disagree with 
    flexibility, but you need the information to base your decisions 
    on. My frustration, and I guess other noters', is not with the 
    people who, for example, knew about the parade and decided to give 
    it a miss, but with the ones who hadn't bothered with their 
    homework, and didn't even know it was going on!
    
    	    I, like previous replies, spend a great deal of time and 
    effort informing, guiding and assisting people who are planning a 
    trip, both the Official and Unofficial books are permanently on 
    loan, and I've given out all of the 10 sets of Park Guides we 
    brought back as souvenirs. My Travel Agent even rings for planning 
    advice sometimes! Why do I do it? Because I've been there, I know 
    the size and scale of the place, and realise the potential for 
    missing out, and not getting full value for the time and money. I 
    don't get angry, I just feel sorrow for those who go unprepared. 
    We have some great footage of the kids with Mickey after his 
    Birthday Party, and were watching the tapes with a family who had 
    just returned. They have kids of 6 & 7, but didn't see the Mouse, 
    because they didn't know about Birthdayland! There were tears and 
    recriminations from the kids about that!!
    
    	    The problem is, I believe, that you can't teach 
    experience. We Disneyholics know what it's all about, but it's 
    difficult to pass on that knowledge. There is nothing in the 
    UK that I can compare it to, to even start to prepare people for 
    scale of the place. We did a great deal of reading and planning 
    before our first trip, but you've only got to look back at some of 
    the wally questions I was asking to realise how little I knew, and 
    how unprepared I was for the shock (Thats the only word I can 
    use!) of going there.
    
    	    I guess I will carry on, in the knowledge that those that 
    do ask and listen, return having seen more, done more, and enjoyed 
    it better than those who didn't bother! (Besides, it's an excuse 
    for a 'debriefing' Disney party, to see the latest photos and 
    videos, and hear what's new in the World :-))
    
    Regards,
    Mike - The Warrington Disney Guru!

    No Len I meant "unlike" because Walt's World has so many activities,
    attractions, shops, fun, etc. it is UNLIKE any other vacation spot and,
    unless you can spend a considerable amount of time there in one stay
    you cannot possibly do everything so you must plan accordingly so that
    you can do as much as you want within the time you're there.
    
    Nothing can compare.
    
    We disagree but then again we may diagree on Dole Whip flavors too...
    
      ........but we'd give anything right now to have one...
    
    ......while watching some streetmosphere.
    
    Mike_who_is_just_2000_hours_away

    I recall our first trip to WDW in '85.  I had glanced thru the Birnbaum
    book and remember thinking that we could see everything with no problem
    in the 5 days we would be there.  We did not plan ahead as to what we 
    would do each day.  We were overwhelmed when we got to the Magic
    Kingdom!  We were amazed by the detail/authentisity of Main Street.  We
    were attracted to the castle and wandered thru it to fantasyland.  The
    key word was that we wandered about for the day.  We were so thrilled
    to just be there.  The "magic" wore off the kids after about 3-4 long 
    lines and by lunch they were becoming irritable (ages 7 & 5).  We
    learned then that we would be better off with a plan for which
    attractions we would take in and the order which we would do them.
    We also learned that it takes longer than originally thought to get
    from 1 end of the MK or EPCOT to the other (especially EPCOT).
    
    This is a personal thing that everyone has to deal with.  My family 
    likes to know what is coming up next.  For my family, part of the joy
    of going is the planning time spent as a family prior to the trip.
    My kids aren't big on admiring the architecture or landscaping or
    details at any of the attractions nor are they intrigued with window
    shopping, so looking around/browsing is not too interesting to us.
    My kids are most interested in the attractions/rides.  My wife and I
    don't mind appeasing them, at least not at WDW!  So, for us short lines
    are important and we planned so as to best avoid them.  We don't know
    when we will get back again, so we want to take in as much as possible
    each visit.  Being repeat visitors, we can eliminate attractions which
    we have done before and no one is interested in doing again.
    
    Plans don't have to be followed to their letter.  On our last trip,
    Nov, '89, we planned to spend a full day at MGM and do it all.  After
    lunch, we opted to go to EPCOT, as the lines which were manageable all
    morning had become over 1 hour long.
    
    DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING.
    
    By all means, pick up a daily schedule upon entering EACH theme park
    and glance thru it to see if there are any live shows or specials
    taking place.  There may be events in the schedule that are not in any
    book.
    
     peter

    Peter is right...do what is best for you. 
    
    In another note someone said that half of the fun in going was the
    planning.
    
    You should remain flexible and adjust accordingly.
    
    Mike

    I'm getting confused.  Do people really follow those sample tours
    given in the books?  Do you anti-Birnbaum noters think we pro-Birnbaum
    noters blindly follow his tours/advice?
    
    I bought a copy of Birnbaum's book in 1984 prior to our first trip
    and read it from cover to cover.  It didn't spoil a thing for me.
    I was still overcome with awe when I boarded the monorail and saw
    castle for the first time.  What the book did do was give me an
    idea of what I could see and do at WDW.  I checked out the sample
    tours in the book but never followed them.  For me they were useful
    in determining the number of attractions I could see in one day.
    
    I continue to buy updated books when major attractions are added to
    WDW.  I still like to read them for the trivia and pictures.  When
    it comes time to plan a trip I mainly check the hotel prices, least
    busy times, reservation information and restaurant information.
    
    The books can help you become aware of special services before you
    go to the park.  Before we went in 1988 I checked the book to find
    out what services they had available for babies.  Before setting
    foot on the property, I knew that I could buy diapers, formula, food,
    etc. and where I could buy it.  It saved me from having to carry a
    heavy diaper bag around the park!
    
    I do not advocate over planning.  I think it's helpful to know you
    plan on spending 2 days at the MK, 2 days at Epcot, 1 day at MGM and
    1 day at Typhoon Lagoon but I wouldn't nail it down much more (besides
    dinner reservations).  If you aren't flexible the weather make sure
    you are -- by raining on your Typhoon Lagoon day!

    Our first time was last summer (next time in 94 days!). We had Steve's
    book and mapped out our stay (8 days that became 9) based on the book
    and lot's of advice from previous visitors.
    
    We made out extensive plans but never made the plans the law. We found
    that we, as Steve say's in the book, have somewhat different tastes
    than some others. In nine days at the World we didn't see everything!
    But then again we saw many things more than once. Some of what we
    passed up before is on the top of our list for this trip. 
    
    Bottom line on planning for us - with a good, well thought out plan you
    can make time for everything. You can really guage when you're having a
    ball by the times you find yourself saying 'The heck with schedule this
    is neat. Let's do it again!!'
    
    If you have a plan you can always deviate to taste, without a plan you
    get potluck. 

    Rep to <<< Note 82.34 by CLOSET::AAARGH::LOWELL "Grim Grinning Ghosts..." >>>

>    Do people really follow those sample tours
>    given in the books?  Do you anti-Birnbaum noters think we pro-Birnbaum
>    noters blindly follow his tours/advice?

    Actually, I  have  a  certain way of attacking a given park, that I had
    developed over the  years of visiting a variety of amusement parks (not
    just WDW) prior to even buying Birnbaum etc.(Didn't know about until my
    second trip), and that is to look at the map layout of a given park and
    plan  a  walking  route  that  allows  me to see all the attraction I'm
    interested as I walk the route, without having to jump from one area to
    the next.  What I don't see in the first day (no biggee) I'll get to on
    the next day I plan to see the park and so on.
    
    In  the case of the MK etc.,  my  plan  closely  follows  what  in  the
    guidebooks etc, but I do have my own special additions/deletions etc.

>    I do not advocate over planning.  I think it's helpful to know you
>    plan on spending 2 days at the MK, 2 days at Epcot, 1 day at MGM and
>    1 day at Typhoon Lagoon but I wouldn't nail it down much more (besides
>    dinner reservations).  If you aren't flexible the weather make sure
>    you are -- by raining on your Typhoon Lagoon day!

    I agree, when I plan I basicly type up a sheet that look like this
    
        Day xx - Morning/early afternoon MK, Swim at  Poly,  late afternoon
                 night EPCOT.
                 Breakfast Poly Character Buffet
                 Lunch Town Square Cafe or Diamond Horseshoe
                 Supper France or China
    
    and that basicly all the planning I do, as you can see I highlight what
    days I wish to attend a given park, once  I  get  there,  we  walk  our
    predesired  path  that  usually  will  include  the  latest  attraction
    (hopefully), I dont jump/run/leap etc to the opisite end, I start right
    from the gate.  As  in  the  case  of Epcot I'll start Spaceship Earth,
    then on to the Living Seas, proceed to the Land/Imagination, then on to
    World Showcase Canada and so on.   Then  next  time I go to Epcot, I'll
    start  on  the other side, hit Energy, Horisons,  Motion,  then  on  to
    Mexico and proceed to wehere we left off the previous day.
    
    As far as dinner reservation I always plan  on a couple or more choice,
    not knowing how the reservations will go, individual taste etc.. 
    
    I don't plan down to the hours because you  have  to stay flexible, not
    knowing exactly  how  hot/crowds/closed  attractions/rain etc.  will be
    like on a given day.
    
    Claude

    Re: back in in the .20's on convincing others of the importance of
    planning.
    
    Well gang I find out this morning that my sister and brother-in-law
    have decided to go to The World when I'm going. But get
    this....remember, they have NEVER BEEN THERE.
    
    First off they are planning only 4 days. That put a shiver down my
    spine...I'm gonna be just warming up in my 5th day. Also, they are not
    too energetic so in those 4 days they may do about as much as the rest
    of us would normally do in 2 days.
    
    They would like to stay in the CBR where we are staying but THEY HAVE
    YET TO MAKE RESERVATIONS. Now we're talkin' mid-July here folks and I
    doubt very seriously if CBR has any openings (1 room for 4 contiguous
    days) so there's another strike. They would like to spend one day with
    us down there and (ugh) I figure I'll arrange to meet them somewhere
    in the afternoon to do stuff. We're early birds and expect to be
    slurping on Dole Whip by the time they are getting out of the shower.
    
    Anyway, it looks like they want me to help them plan this
    fiasco...brrrr gonna be fun. I know they wanted the CBR because it was
    far less expensive then the other on-property sites and because we were
    staying there.
    
    Looks like they will be shut out. And to think I constantly reminded
    them last November about planning ahead.
    
    They are totally ignorant of what to expect down there and unless they
    want to hire Joel as a tour guide they will most likely not get their
    money's worth.
    
    Think about it. They will spend more money on their transportation then
    they will on lodging and admission.
    
    Any advice comrades?
    
    Mike

    Hi Mike,
    
    I forget, do they have kids? if so, do they get along with your kids?
    
    We had a similar problem when we went last Nov.  My brother-in-law and
    his family, wife and daughter my daughter's age, couldn't decide if
    they wanted to meet us there when we were planning to go or not.  I
    said, fine - if you don't decide by such-n-such a date, we will not
    make any arrangements for you.  If you are there, we will meet you a
    few places.
    
    Well, come 2 weeks prior to our leaving, they decided they would be
    at WDW for a week (we were there 12 days).  They ended up staying at
    the Sheraton Lakeside, which was nice and is fairly convenient to the
    main entrance to WDW.  We spent a lot of time with them, but we didn't
    change our plans.  If they were not at the scheduled meeting place at
    the specified time, we left without them.  They didn't mind all the
    walking we did to avoid lines.
    
    My kids enjoy being with their cousin, who lives in western Ohio, so
    visiting with her was a treat.  The last day in the theme parks, our
    daughter Sarah spent the morning with her cousin and her parents.  We 
    met for lunch, swapped our son Michael for our daughter Sarah and met
    again later for supper and spent the evening as one, big happy (but
    getting depressed on the last day!!!) family.
    
    A few suggestions:  met them for a meal at Epcot.  You can make the
    reservation 2 days early and include them in the count.  At least
    we were allowed to do this last Nov.
    
    Have them meet you at the CBR for an evening and have a meal together,
    or take a swim in the main pool or just a walk around the promenade.  
    Will add some other suggestions if I recal anymore.
    
    peter

    Peter,
    
    They have one (adopted) son and my kids sorta get along with him. His
    problem is that he is lazy and out of shape, for an 11 year old. Heck
    he got tired just trying to play catch with a football the other day.
    
    My brother-in-law is 50, has a bad bad, doesn't like to walk, and is
    only doing this because my sister wants to go. Do ya think he's gonna
    be fun?
    
    YOur suggestions are precisely what I had been thinking. I think it's
    best to plan to have a meal together but not have a day together.
    
    My other thoughts were to spend a non Disney (Universal Studios, Sea
    World, etc.) day with them. I'd like to have lunch at the Prime Time
    Cafe (MGM) with them. Maybe I'll shoot for that.
    
    It's gonna be interesting to see where they end up staying.
    
    Mike

    Rep to <<< Note 82.39 by COEM::SCOPA "MAJOR" >>>

    Mike,
    
    My advise to you since they took their time deciding while you did your
    planing reserving etc. is to tell them,
    
    Fine, you take  care  of  your reservations etc, and we'll take care of
    ours (since we're all taken care  of), if our times at WDW coincide why
    don't we plan on meeting for a day/lunch etc..
    
    Otherwise don't ruin your plans  because of other indecisions etc.  and
    have a good time.
    
    Claude

    Well my baseball game was cancelled last night so I went over to my
    sister's house and we talked about WDW.
    
    I brought Birnbaum, my WDW Resort Vacation Handbook, my Disney '90 MKC
    Guide, my AAA stuff, and my World passes so I could be as thorough as
    possible. First explained to them how the resort works. They weren't
    clear about the theme parks. They thought they were right next to each
    other. Nope. I explained the time needed to go from one to the other.
    
    I broke down their 4 days to 1 at TMK, 2 at EPCOT, and 1 at MGM.
    
    I went over all the attractions and made recommendations on those more
    popular attractions. Astonishingly the one attraction that they are
    more interested in seeing than any other is the Hall of PResidents.
    They really didn't know what it was but somehow knew it was there.
    
    I talked about Epcot and MGM and mentioned the more popular attractions
    in each of the parks. They had no clue as to how much time it takes to
    go from one park to another and they seemed surprised at the distance
    between Epcot and TMK.
    
    We then talked about HOTELS. They were looking for economy but winced
    when I showed them the rates. It looks like they'll shoot for the CBR
    but I also recommended Travellodge, Grosvenor, HOJOs, and the Hotel
    Royal Plaza too.
    
    I told them to figure on $100 per night and about $110 apiece for a
    4-day World Pass. Airfare I don't know but I figured $200-$250 apiece
    round trip. I really couldn't give them a figure for food but I told
    them to expect to pay $20-$30 each per day. Then I told them to add
    another $250 for odds and ends. I figured that they would have to
    spring about $1750-2000 for what they want to do.
    
    I asked them about when they wanted to leave and they had envisioned
    leaving at around 9 from Boston or Manchester, N.H. That translates
    into about 5 hours before getting to your hotel and settling in. That
    blows 1/2 a day. Also day 4 is not too enjoyable unless you have a late
    flight home.
    
    I convinced them to leave on a late afternoon flight and look to land
    in Orlando around 7 or 8 P.M. They could then have supper and relax and
    get a full day after a good night's sleep. I also convinced them to
    extend it to 5 days. I think it had a lot to do with my telling them
    about other Orlando sites like Sea World and Universal Studios.
    
    It was a very interesting evening because although I spent 2 1/2 hours
    doing a brain dump on WDW I had only begun to scratch the surface.
    
    The post-vacation discussions will be interesting. I wonder if I'll get
    the same reaction Len mentioned.........
    
        "....Parade??? What parade?"
    
    Should be an interesting trip report huh gang?
    
    Mike_who_has_46_days_to_ponder_this_one 
    
    
    

    I guess I need to finish off the string of responses within this topic
    involving my sister's trip.
    
    I think I can sum it all up with this little quip.
    
    My family went over to my sister's for Thanksgiving. "Bring some Disney
    tapes!" she asked. I brought four of them. In the 8 hours of footage I
    had on those tapes only about 45 minutes of that footage was something
    my sister picked up on. They did not remember anything else.
    
    For instance here are some quotes:
    
             "Where did that Ewok village come from? We never saw it!"
    
             "We never found Indiana Jones!"
    
             "How do you get to Mickey's Starland?"
    
    Other things like Hoop-Dee-Doo is understandable but the number of
    areas which she and my brother-in-law couldn't recognize really amazed
    me. They truly rushed through 4 days and missed quite a bit.
    
    She wants me to help her plan her next trip. Sound familiar Claude?
    
    If there's a lesson to be learned from this it's simply don't
    go overboard trying to help first timers in their plans for a WDW trip.
    
    I felt bad that they missed so much but that's what you get when you
    don't plan ahead.
    
    Mike