Conference koolit::disney

    
    from mondays Boston Herald (typos are mine)
    
      Los Angeles Walt Disney Co plans time share resorts near its theme
    parks worldwide, part of a stategy to engage vacationers' attention-
    and pocketbooks- for days or weeks at a time.
    
      The first resort, a previously announced 501-unit Key West styled
    development, is nearly complete at WDW in Florida. Apartments there
    range from studios to twin-suite, five bedroom villas.
    
      Officials say that Disney plans or is considering resorts near its 
    Anaheim, Paris, and Tokyo theme parks, and in Colorado ski country and
    California's desert. As part of the program, known as Disney Vacation
    Club, vacationers could visit different resorts at different times.
    
     " You will invest in the rights to use the vacation facilities at
    Florida first and at others as they may be developed" Disney World
    spokesman Charles Ridgway said.
    
      Ridgway said Disney also will work out deals to swap time and space
    with other reputable time-share developments.
    
      Exact cost and legal details weren't released. Vacationers are
    expected to buy stakes in the resorts for fifty years, with ownership
    reverting to Disney. Disney wants to keep tight rein on the resorts by
    managing them through a subsidary, a plan at odds with current
    California law.
    
      At most time-share resorts, vacationers buy an ownership stake in a
    unit they can use for a specific period each year, typicaly a week or
    two. But Disney wants to provide more flexibility, along the lineof
    certain resorts developed by Marriot Corp. and a few other companies,
    Ridgway said.
    
      For example, someone might purchase use of a two-bedroom villa for a
    week each year during a slow season in Florida.
    
      But one year they might instead book a smaller apartment for the same
    length of time at  peak season.
    
      The next year, they might stay at resorts near Disney's parks in
    California, France, or Japan.
    
      They even could "bank" time from one year or "borrow" it from a
    future year, said Doug Gillies, a Disney lobbyist in Sacramento.
    
      Participants would not be required to visit Disney parks. But Gillies
    said Disney will set up an 800 number so they can not only book time at
    a time-share villa, but flights and tickets to theme parks or to, say
    the nightclubs planned at the huge Euro Disney complex that opens next
    year outside Paris.
    
      To exert more control over possible time share resorts near
    Disneyland in Anaheim or its proposed nautical theme park in Long
    Beach, Disney is trying to loosen California's tough time-sharing laws.
    
      Gillies said one big concern is a requirement that someone besides
    the developer must manage a time-share facility under three year
    contracts. Another is a regulation giving the state realestate
    commission the power to negotiate and approve prices for time-shares
    sold more than 200 miles outside the state.
    
      The power comes from a 30-year-old law passed after a series of scams
    involving time-share resorts.
    "Time-share has had its problems, with people who were less than
    upstanding in it" Ridgway acknowledged. " But there are some upstanding 
    people in it already and we think the Disney name and our attention to
    quality will be a great asset.
    
      In fact, Disney's near-obsession with control of its image has become
    ever more apparent. In recent years, Disney has licensed its name more
    carefuly and has begun aggressively expanding its own consumer products
    division. It opened Disney stores and experimented with fast food rest- 
    aurants.
    
    ap

    The visitor center for the Disney Vacation Club opens this week at WDW. 
    It is located on Community Dr. near the intersection with Bonnet Creek
    Parkway, (just south of the Port Orleans Resort).  There is also a
    storefront on Main St. USA.

    You can call the visitor center to make an appointment to visit. 
    Models will be available for viewing beginning in November.

    The phone number is (407) 939-3000.

    Depending on where you live, they may or may not be able to send you
    information, depending if they are registered with your state to sell
    timesharing.  They are not yet registered in Massachusetts, but they
    did take my name for the mailing list.

             TIME-SHARE IDEA GETS DISNEY TOUCH

          Company takes new approach to business

          (w/o permission, Orlando Sentinel, October 13, 1991)


A few years ago, Mickey looked outside the gates of Walt Disney World and saw
a booming business.  Orlando had become the time-share resort capital of the
world an estimated $400 million annual industry in Central Florida.

That success was largely because of the presence of Disney, but Mickey wasn't
getting a bite of it.

To do so was tempting, but there was a downside for the company's squeaky
clean image.  A bad smell lingered about the time-share cheese.  The industry's
record had included charges of high-pressure sales tactics, fraudulent
sweepstakes campaigns and build-'em and leav-'em developers.

Yet other aspects of the business were tantalizing.  The industry had steadily
improved in the past five years, and it had attracted other high-profile
corporations with reputations to uphold such as Marriott Corp., Hilton Hotels
Corp. and International Telephone & Telegraph Corp.

Disney decided to partake of the time-share feast, but not until it had 
developed what it believes is a new approach to the business.

"We're not a time-share resort," said Mark L. Pacala, vice president and
general manager of Disney Vacation Development Inc., operators of the Disney
Vacation Club.

"We're a vacation club.  We're calling ourself something different.  We are
different.  We want people to judge by our performance, not in reaction to the
word time share."

The words "time-share" never appear in any Disney sales brochures.

Disney started selling the club this month.  It is wrapping up construction
of 197 units in a Key West themed community on the Lake Buena Vista Golf Course.
If those, 51 unites have been reserved for the vacation club, and the remainder
will operate as a Disney resort hotel.  Eventually, as many as 500 units will
be built, and all may be converted to vacation club use.

The venture is different from time shares in more than just its name.  Disney
had to tackle two key problems when it decided to move into the business - image
and control.

To achieve control, Disney has a different way of selling its space.

Instead of selling a specific apartment for a week or two a year, Disney
sells interest in the club that entitles buyers to a certain number of points.
Buyers use the points to reserve different times for varying lengths of
stay - all on a first-come, first served basis.  The membership is good for
50 years.

For example, the minimum purchase of $11,730 would entitle the buyer to 230
vacation points.  The buyer could use those points in various ways, including
a three week stay in studio apartment during a slow season, a one-week stay
in a two-bedroom apartment during a moderate season or a four-day stay in a
three-bedroom apartment at a busy season like Christmas.

Participation can be in almost any amount.  Pacala said research indicates
most purchases will be in the $11,730 to - $16,000 range.

As many as 2,500 members might participate in the first 51 units, Pacala
estimated.  At the $11,730 minimum, that would be a sellout of almost $30
million.

Pacala said the company never considered selling time-share property.  The
late Walt Disney bought 30,000 acres specifically so he could maintain total
control, he said.  Property owners might be tempted to try to stick their
collective noses into the business or the Reedy Creek Improvement District,
the governmental arm of Disney created by special legislative action in
1967.  Disney in effect governs its 30,000 acres itself.

The vacation club is registered by the state as a condominium and falls
under both state condominium and time-share sales laws.

Condominium association members have votes, but Pacala sees no problem with
that.  The vacation club association will vote on such things as special
assessments, budget increases of more than 15 percent and retaining the
resort management, which is Disney.

Suppose the association votes out Disney as manager.  Not likely, Pacala
believes.  However remote, suppose it happened?  The ground lease spells
out how the resort must be managed and to what standards, Pacala said.  For
anyone but Disney to do it would be "very expensive," he said.  "It's out
infrastructure.  Our know-how."

With the control factor resolved, Disney then tackled image.

Marketing will be low-key, said Pacala, who was recruited from Marriott
Corp., where he helped develop the Fairfield Inn economy motel concept.

Information will be left for visitors at Disney World's 9,000 plus hotel
rooms.  Two booths, one at the Magic Kingdom and one at Epcot Center, also
will distribute information to those who ask for it.

No gifts or other incentives will be offered for visitors to go to the 
Vacation Club Preview Centers and hear the sales pitch.  Buyers through
the end of the decade, though, do get an incentive - free admission to the
Disney theme parks during their vacation visits.

State law requires a 15-day period when buyers can change their minds
and get their money back.  Disney will offer 30 days.

The 1 to 1 1/2 hour sales presentation by "vacation guides" includes a movie
and two video presentations.  Participants have three opportunities to
leave and catch a van back to their hotels or the parks.  "If someone's
yawning or looking at their watch, the vacation guides asks if they want to
go on", Pacala said.

If a visitor decides to buy, the salesperson leaves the visitor with a
manager who makes sure the buyer understands the purchase and isn't pressured.
All visitors make two final stops - first at an old-fashion ice cream
parlor for ice cream and then at a wall mural for a photograph.  The picture
is sent both buyers and non-buyers as a souvenir, along with a survey asking
if any problems were encountered.

Disney has hired salespeople with a minimum of five years' experience.  All
went through three months of intensive training, not only of the vacation
club concept, but in the Disney culture.  Ten percent to 20 percent have had
experience in time-share sales.

Pacala said compensation is based on commission and a base salary.  Without
spelling out the formula, Pacala said customer's feedback on how they were
handled will affect a salesperson's earnings.  Most salespeople are expected
to get 60 percent to 80 percent of their earnings from the base salary, he
said.

Buyers can finance through their bank or Disney.  Payment plans range from
one to 10 years with initial interest rates ranging from 10.8 percent.
The lowest rates are for buyers who agree to direct payment deductions from
their checking accounts.

Besides the purchase price, club members pay annual dues starting at $500.
That charge covers use of Disney's transportation as well as maintenance and
real estate taxes.

Pacala said the program is designed for people who consistently take
vacations.

"We want people to buy because they want to use it," Pacala said.  "It's
not an investment."

Even though the vacation-club structure is different from most time-share
operations, it is firmly planted in the time-share culture.

Club members who don't want to come to Disney World every year can exchange 
with time-share owners through Resort Condominiums International, a world
side exchange network.  Exchanges may be made at the top 100 resorts of the
network.

"The underlying premise of time share is sound," Pacala said.  "We've tried
to approach this thing in a manner that avoids problems of the part."

Will the vacation club concept be expanded to Disney parks in California,
Europe and Japan or even other resort areas?  "We're not ruling anything
out, but right now we're focusing all our energy right here." Pacala said.
"We must make this a success first."

Time-share industry leaders cheered Disney's entry.

"It's further evidence of the maturation of the industry," said Thomas C
Franks, president of the American Resort and Residential Development
Association.

"They will lend a lot of credibility to time-sharing even though they don't
use the word," said Barbara Lawrence, vice president of Island One Inc.,
developer of four time-share resorts in the Disney World area.

Disney has invited time-share developers from across Central Florida to
receptions at the vacation club over the past several days.

"We'd rather invite them in rather than have them come look over the
Disney Vacation Club," Pacala said.  "Besides, they helped us tremendously
in the planning process".

    I don't know if this is legal or not but here goes anyways.  Since the
    Vacation club can only send info to states where they are registered,
    and so far this includes, Florida, New Jersey, Penn., Massacheusetts. 
    Would someone please call this club and have them send you some
    information so that you can in turn send it up to me.  We were looking
    at timeshares down there but my wife got sick and we couldn'ty make it
    to any of the places.  And since we'll probably get one in Florida why
    not at Disney World.
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    Regards,
    JP Lavigne	@kao 4-3/8a

    The following is from the official 1992 Magic Kingdom Club Membership
    Guide:
    
    Scheduled to open in January 1992, the Disney Vacation Club is an
    island getaway in the heart of the Walt Disney World Resort. From the
    swaying palm trees to pastel-colored vacation homes with tin roofs,
    wicker furniture and paddle fans, the romance of the
    turn-of-the-century Key West is re-created.
    
    The attitude is relaxed and the atmosphere is fun. Enjoy the comforts
    of a studio, one, two, or three-bedroom vacation home. Plus, swimming
    pools, tennis, volleyball, fitness center, sauna, masseur, marina, boat
    rentals and more.
    
    ****
    
    The Vacation Club is located off of Bonnet Creek Parkway, just South of
    Port Orleans.
    
    ***
    
    Three categories are given regarding rates for the Disney Vacation
    Club. The following is for a 4-night package, per person. They are:
    
         Super Club Saver Rates     => From $816 to $1086
         Regular Club Saver Rates   => From $925 to $1281
         Value Club Saver Rates     => From $895 to $1242 
    
    Pretty steep I'd say.
    
    Mike

    I've just been speaking with the Disney Development Company, to 
    see if they are making any progress with registering the club in 
    the UK. They have no information on likely timescales, but they 
    did mention that the resort is bookable through the CRO like any 
    other. I rang the CRO to get some idea of prices, and they are a 
    little steep!
    
    For the first two weeks in July, I was quoted 
    
    $245 - 1 Bedroom Vacation Home (King size in bedroom, Queen size 
           roll away in Living room and kitchen). Can sleep 5.
    
    $325 - 2 Bedroom (2 King, 1 Queen rollaway, kitchen) Can sleep 7.
    
    $700 - Luxury home with bedrooms on 2nd and 3rd Floors. Sleeps 12
    
    Plenty of availability now, but they start selling on Dec 20th.
    
    Guess I'll stay with my Caribbean reservation, and just go and 
    look!
    
    Mike B.

    Mike,
    
    Were these prices PER NIGHT??????
    
    Signed,
    
    Your HDD Birthday Boy

    Yes, that was the price per night (for the Vacation Home complete, 
    not per person!). It sounds like it equates to FW in terms of 
    facilities, but with more space, but I can't see any real 
    justification for $70 more per night.
    
    What was included in the Vacation Package you mentioned a few 
    notes earlier? Are there flights and meals included? If not, that 
    means a return of $800 per night on a home that sleeps 4!
    
    Mike B.

    Mike,
    
    Airfare isn't included.
    
    Only the World, Admiral, and Grand Plan covers all meals.
    
    Mike

    The marketing has begun. Late November we received a letter from the
    Disney Vacation Club stating they are delighted that we are visiting 
    WDW shortly (12/21-12/29), and that our visit coincides with the 
    unveiling of the Disney Vacation Club. Enclosed is a phone number and 
    form to reserve a time for viewing the Club, including pick up and drop 
    off service to WDW hotels. Anyone with reservations at a WDW hotel will
    probably receive a similar letter. 
    
    By the way, it states that the current prices start at $11,730. There
    is no information as to what time frame or type of accomodation that
    kind of money would cover. 
    
    Linda

    Linda,
    
    I'm thinking that they probably pulled out all the names of those who
    have made multiple visits over the last few years figuring that this
    data base is the one most likely to "bite" on this.
    
    Mike

    I also received the same letter and I haven't been there since
    1986. 6 days and change to go.......YES!
    
    Gary
    

    Mr/Ms Moderators. Please delete if I'm breaking any laws by 
    posting this info for states or countries that have not been 
    registered!
    
    A friend who has just been through the sales pitch faxed me the 
    Vacation Club Points System. She's just bought sufficient points 
    to allow her a 2 bedroom house for two weeks in the Magic Season.
    
    Some points she mentioned - 
    They are being very tight about the 'free' passports
    
    Studio - 	     Sleeps 4  - 1 passport
    1 Bedroom Home - Sleeps 4  - 2 passports
    2 Bedroom Home - Sleeps 8  - 3 passports
    Grand Villa -    Sleeps 12 - 6 passports
    
    (continues until the end of the decade.)
    
    Prices are reviewed quarterly (Their salesman reckoned that they 
    would increase somewhat at each opportunity, because demand was 
    high!) They increased from $51 to $53 per point on 1st Jan '92. 
    Next review 1st April.
    
    Maintenance is fixed annually, for '92 it's $2.41 per point, and 
    is limited to a maximum of 15%(!) increase.
    
    If at some later date you want to sell your points, you must offer 
    them to Disney first. (The salesman would not make any statement 
    about resale value, only quoting the policy that they were for 
    people to use, not for investment!).
    
    Disney think that they can accomodate most requests, apart from 
    Christmas. If you request a Christmas booking and are 
    unsuccessful, you are given priority for the following Christmas!
    
    She faxed the building layouts, but they came out almost totally 
    black, so I'll have to wait until she gets back from the 
    Everglades before entering more details.
    
                               ___________
    
    Seasons.
    
    Adventure Season - Jan 1-31
    	    	       Sep 1-30
    	    	       Dec 1-14
    
    Choice Season    - Oct 1-31
    	    	       Nov 1-25
    	    	       Nov 29-30
    	    	       Dec 15-23
    
    Dream Season     - Feb 1-15
    	    	       May 1-31
    	    	       Jun 1-10
    	    	       Aug 16-31
    
    Magic Season     - Feb 16-29
    	    	       Mar 1-31
    	    	       Apr 1-11
    	    	       Apr 26-30
    	    	       Jun 11-30
    	    	       Jul 1-31
    	    	       Aug 1-15
    	    	       Nov 26-28 in '92, (Thanksgiving)
    	    	       Nov 24-26 in '93, 
    	    	       Nov 23-25 in '94
    
    Premier Season     Apr 12-25 in '92 (Spring Vacation)
    	    	       Apr  7-17 in '93
    	    	       Mar 27 - Apr 9 in '94
    	    	       Dec 24-31
    
    The rooms are rated differently Sun-Thurs and Fri-Sat.
    
    	    	    	    	    Studio  
    	    	    Sun-Thurs	    Weekly  	    Fri-Sat
    Adventure	    7 Points	    69 Points	    17 Points
    Choice  	    8 Points	    82 Points	    21 Points
    Dream   	    10 Points	    100 Points	    25 Points
    Magic   	    11 Points	    111 Points	    28 Points
    Premier 	    15 Points	    151 Points	    38 Points
    
    	    	    	    	    1 Bedroom Home
    	    	    Sun-Thurs	    Weekly  	    Fri-Sat
    Adventure	    14 Points	    140 Points	    35 Points
    Choice  	    17 Points	    169 Points	    42Points
    Dream   	    20 Points	    200 Points	    50 Points
    Magic   	    23 Points	    229 Points	    57 Points
    Premier 	    31 Points	    309 Points	    77 Points
    
    	    	    	    	    2 Bedroom Home
    	    	    Sun-Thurs	    Weekly  	    Fri-Sat
    Adventure	    19 Points	    189 Points	    47 Points
    Choice  	    23 Points	    229 Points	    57 Points
    Dream   	    27 Points	    269 Points	    67 Points
    Magic   	    31 Points	    309 Points	    77 Points
    Premier 	    42 Points	    420 Points	    105 Points
    
    	    	    	    	    Grand Villa
    	    	    Sun-Thurs	    Weekly  	    Fri-Sat
    Adventure	    31 Points	    309 Points	    77 Points
    Choice  	    37 Points	    369 Points	    92 Points
    Dream   	    45 Points	    449 Points	    112 Points
    Magic   	    52 Points	    520 Points	    130 Points
    Premier 	    68 Points	    680 Points	    170 Points
    
                                 ________
    
    My friend's impression was that the standard and quality of 
    construction and fitting out was high, and the whole development 
    was at Yacht and Beach Club standard, with plenty of 'on-site' 
    facilities.
    
    We're quite interested in buying into the scheme, it seems to 
    offer us the flexibility we need to vary size and timing of the 
    accomodation depending on our children's changing needs over the 
    next few years. The only concern is the maintenance cost - for two 
    weeks on a 2 Bedroom Home in Magic Season it's $1500, cheaper than 
    a FW Trailer (I'm assuming that we can sell our points back and 
    recover the purchase cost at some stage like 20-25 years out, so 
    the maintenance is the only dead money), but if it increases at 
    15% per year, in 25 years it will have risen to $42,633. That's a 
    minimum! If the facility management (i.e. Disney) feel that 15% 
    isn't covering the cost of maintaining the facility at it's 
    original standard, they can vote through a bigger increase.
    
    Suddenly, I don't trust Uncle Walt's boys! Any time-share 
    'experts' out there got any feel for how the maintenance has 
    increased on other developments? If it's likely to increases 
    faster than the cost of equivalent accomodation in say FW, then 
    it's a nonstarter.
    
    I'll post more information when my friend returns and I can get 
    hold of her information pack.
    
    Happy and Prosperous New Year to Everyone!
    
    Mike B. 

One of the most notorious problems with time-shares in general is that they
are difficult or impossible to sell.  Much of the original cost is sales
commission, so that the true value is much less than the purchase price.  It
is not uncommon for people to buy a time-share for $10K, and be unable to sell
them a few years later for more than $2-3K.  Of course, this can vary
tremendously from place to place.

Whether this will be true of the Disney Vacation Club remains to be seen.
They are obviously in a unique situation.

   Gary

    
    I have finally had time to go back and reread this note in it's
    entirety. We have experience with timeshares and vacation clubs.
    Both in purchasing (three) and in the process of selling 1. So
    hopefully this will help people out. Since we will be down in March;
    we may consider going to check it out; just to compare to our already
    existing purchases. All of ours are in NH, and all were purchased in
    the early 80's, when, IMHO, the prices were reasonable....
    
    Difference between deeded timeshares, and right-to-use timeshares:
    
       - Deeded timeshares mean just that. You actually own 1/52nd of
    	one condo, for as long as you own the condo; you can deed it;
    	sell it, etc; without any restrictions. Cathedral Ledge in
    	North Conway, NH. is an example of this.
    
       - Right-to-use timeshares, now they are called Vacation Club
    	Plans, like Steel Hill Resort/Steele Hill West in Laconia, NH.
        This appears to be exactly what the WDW one is; except the WDW
    	one says 50 years; where Steele Hill is 25yrs. Here, you have
    	NO EQUITY, you have merely bought the RIGHT TO USE ON A YEARLY
    	BASIS!!!! You are not guaranteed the right to use it!!!
    
    	  - It is your obligation to call and reserve your time, and
    	   to do it early enough to actually get a week that year. If
    	   you decide to wait till say September or October and call
    	   down to make reservations, then you can receive the answer
    	   that we are all booked up for the year; in other words, you
    	   have forfeited your right to use it that year; by not making
    	   reservations early enough! This has happened at SH before;
    	   I don't know anyone personnally, but every year there is a
    	   notice saying make sure you book early... 
    
    	   WHY??? The vacation clubs goal is to sell out the maximum
    	     number of points that can be utilized in a years time.
    	     then if they have sold the max # of points; and say several
    	     weeks at the beginning of the year, like January they do
    	     not have a full house, a certain number of points will
    	     have been lost that year. The people that call the latest
    	     are the ones that find out there are no accomodations; their
    	     points/weeks end up being the empty ones back at the beginning
    	     of the year. There are also "probably" not obligated to give
    	     you extra time the next year because you were at fault for
    	     not calling early enough for reservations.
    
    	  Steele Hill has a reservation policy that says you can reserve
    	  a max. of 210 days in advance,  so we always
    	  make ours as close to the 210 day in advance as possible. And
    	  have never had a problem. If you remember that it is only a right
    	  and not a guarantee; and make your reservations at the earliest
    	  time allowed for the week you want; then you should get it; if
    	  not, you will have to pick an alternate week; so be prepared for
    	  it. 
    
       Watch out for a surprise rooms tax! Especially if they follow New
    	Hampshires example!!!!! NH does NOT tax deeded timeshares!
    	However they MOST DEFINITELY tax vacation clubs (like Steele Hill)
    	and the rooms tax is on 1/nth of the purchase price, where n is
    	the number of years. Ours is 1/25th of the purchase price PLUS
    	the yearly fee. Because we do not own it, it is considered by
    	the state of NH as equivalent to renting a room in a hotel/etc.
        So If you spend say $32754 (309 pts/weekly * 2
    	weeks * $53/pt, for the two weeks listed in previous note) you
        can get a rooms tax bill for 1/50th of that price. So $655 *
	what is FLA 10%?) or $65.50 tax. Now if they also tax that
    	annual fee, like NH does, your also looking at 10% of the $1500
    	annual fee; or another $150 rooms tax. So in this case; you
        could actually be looking at an additional $215 room tax/yearly. Note
        also, the % of the maintenance dues you pay that covers taxes
        does not allow you to deduct them from your Income tax, because
        you "do not own it".
    
    	The purchase price for right-to-use vacation clubs? Seems steep
    	to me. We purchased in the early 80's when prices were in the
    	$4-6k range. Your actual yearly cost on the example from the
        previous note looks like $655(initial yearly cost) + 1500 annual
    	dues + (possible $215 rooms tax). You need to use that figure
    	to compare just renting at WDW; and also take into consideration
        that if you don't go one year, you still pay that annual dues
        even if you trade it too another resort; or rent it out to get
        back some of the money.
    
    
    	Yearly dues... the above example was $750/one week, with a
    	cap at 15% yearly. That again seems VERY STEEP! Most annual
        fees are in the $250-$350 range, depending on the facilities;
        locations, unit size, etc. Ours started at $180 8 years ago
    	and is now $284/yearly. I believe except for one year, the annual
        increase has been less than 5%.
    
        Recouping value - Best Wishes... It is just about impossible.
        We spent $5500 in '83 and are selling this unit for $3250. This
        is actually quite good. As that means we spent $2250 for the 8
    	years, plus annual fees. Thats worked out to be about $281/year
    	plus averaged $300 annual fees. or about $581/year for a three
    	story/sleeps 8 condo, or $83/night/no rooms tax. The recoup is very low; as
        people buy in, and then decide they don't want it anymore, can't
    	afford the annual fees. Find they cannot use it EVERY year and it
        costs more to trade to a place closer to home or they rent it
        but can't get enough to cover the annual fee so they still have
        to pay for part of it. Therefore, it is not uncommon for people
        to decide to dump them at low prices to get out of the annual
        dues. In other-words.... don't consider the initial cost
    	recoverable, you need to take that figure into consideration in
        your annual cost, as well as any interest you are paying on the
        loan if you get one :^)...  Then feel very lucky to get part of
    	it back in the end. There is a timeshare notes file, check out the
    	units available for less than $1k!. Also check the national papers
        that list discounted brokers, and the mega number of timeshare
    	resales that get outrageously low sales prices for resales...
        No doubt, if someone is at the point they want to sell it back
    	WDW, like everybody else knows there is a price at which the
        person will be glad to get rid of it; and it ends up being no-where
        near the price purchased for :^).
    
    
    
      Then again, WDW may be different, but this hopefully gives people
      some more things to think about...
    
    		- Annie
    

    Thanks for your info Annie, there were some interesting points in 
    there. We've decided not to go any further, for us there are too 
    many unknowns (especially round the costs!) to make it viable. Our 
    friends are carrying on (but they've got more money than sense!), 
    so I passed on the main points of your note to them.
    
    They think that Disney has covered the 'deeding' aspect. They have 
    been deeded an identifiable villa for the 50 year period, although 
    they might never ever stay in that actual one.
    
    The booking system caused them more concern. In their documents, 
    Disney commit to only sell to 96% of capacity, but if you consider 
    that each unit will be unavailable for 2-3 days per year for 
    decorating etc., then it's getting dangerously close to max.
    
    Another caveat is that at the end of '92 the VC joins RCI, and 
    there is a warning that priority is given to VC owners only until 
    10 months prior to the required dates. After that it becomes a 
    competition with outsiders.
    
    Our friends are getting close to the end of the 30 day 
    cancellation period, so if anyone else has points to consider then 
    lets hear them. (I'm trading this info for VC points, and so far 
    I've got enough to sit on a couch for three days  8-)  )
    
    Mike B.
    
    p.s. I've been into the Timeshare Note, Thanks! The response was 
    so fast that I checked it's location. It's in my building and the 
    moderator sits a few offices away!

    
    Just some follow-ons here....
    
      - I don't have a problem with timeshares/vacation clubs. We got
    	involved when prices were IMHO reasonable. Stan and I have had
    	the opportunity to visit many places, that we never would have
    	gone to had we not had the flexibility of trading to other resorts
    	in our exchange club. Yosemite, Yellowstone, Reno, Calif,
        Vancouver, Penn, Vt, NY, Fla(Orlando), and several others. It was
    	a great way to actually take vacations and look for areas we wanted
    	to explore. I think we might not have left the New England Area
    	otherwise! It was the added incentive we needed to take vacations
        yearly and try something different!
    
      - I gave more thought to that 50 year deal.... I am glad ours are
        only 25 at Steele Hill West. Our interests, goals, ideas 8+
        years ago are different then they ae now. We are all always
        changing. That perhaps is one of the reasons from going from 3 to
        2 timeshares... I wouldn't want to be tied to a place for 50 years.
        Our 25 year ones expire when we are still at a reasonable age!
    
      - If we bought a 50 year WDW Vacation Club this year, it would be
    	ours till we were 85! Wow, first I am not sure I'd be capable of
        doing Disney till I was 85! And also, assume we retire in the
    	65-70 year old range :^), I would not want to be saddled with
        a large yearly maintenance dues from age 65-85... Thats 20 of
        the 50 years.... If it's 1500/yearly now, what would it be
    	in 30 years? Thats when I'd be 65, and wanting not to have
        large yearly expenditures.
    
      - Annie
                                           

Has anyuone stayed at the Disney Vacation Club Resort that just opened in
Jan. 92.  We are getting a 2 bedroom.  Any opinions or thoughts on this.  I 
haven't seen anything on this in this conference except a note on Disney 
Vactation Club Timeshare.  This is just a straight rental that we have booked
for eitht nights.  How best to get groceries without a car--broshure indicates
there is a water taxii to the Village Market Place.

Ken,

Although I did not see inside the properties, the outside is very lavish,
just like all the other new properties.  Much of it was still under
construction in February when I saw it.

As for groceries, there is a small grocery store in the Disney Village,
accessible by the water shuttle you mentioned and also by frequent buses.

If you need a better selection or better prices, get a bus to the last
hotel in the hotel plaza, and walk across Rte 525 into Crossroads Plaza.
A super-grocery store and many other stores and restaurants make their home
there.

Bill

    If these are the same things as the vacation "time-share" places they
    are real nice.  I'm surprised that they  are renting them though. 
    Maybe purchases aren't going as well as they thought they would.  When
    you are there ask to check out the grand villa rooms.  They are REAL
    nice.
    
    George

We recently sent away for info on the Vacation Club.  If you ask me very
nicely, I might mail you a photocopy... :-)  (but send me mail; please don't 
clutter up this topic with "send me a copy" replies)

I'll try to enter some updated info RE prices, when I get a chance - if I 
remember correctly, since the brochure is at home, the minimum price is now 
around $12,000 (230 points, I think).  What mostly puts us off is the yearly
 maintenance fee...

						-- Nina

    Gee can anyone spare me their WINNING LOTERY TICKETS??  YIKES!!!!
    
    According to the Vacation  Club Flyer that my friend here in Salem has,
    here are the current Price and Finance  Options,  based on sample point
    packages  (BTW  you can purchase point packages ranging  from  230-2000
    points)

    POINT PACKAGES
    ==============    

    Total       One-Time        Annual        1 year @0.0%    7 yrs @ 11.74%
    Points      Purchase        Dues          50% down        20% down
                                              12 payments     84 payments
    
    230         $12,535        $556.08          $522.29         $175.63
    270          14,715         652.80           613.13          206.18
    310          16,895         749.52           703.96          236.72
    420          22,890       1,015.44           953.75          320.72
    680          37,060       1,644.00         1,544.17          519.26
    
    VACATION CLUB SEASONS ('92)
    ===========================
    
    Adventure Season = Jan 1-31, Sept 1-30, Dec 1-14
    Choice Season    = Oct 1-31, Nov 1-25*, 29-30*, Dec 15-23
    Dream Seasom     = Feb 1-15, May 1-31, Jun 1-10, Aug 16-31
    Magic Season     = Feb 16-29, Mar 1-31~, Apr 1-11~, 26-30~, Jun 1-30, 
                       Jul 1-31, Aug 1-15, Nov 26-28*
    Premier Season   = Apr 12-25~, Dec 24-31

       * = Thanksgiving dates, these dates will change each year
       ~ = Spring Vacation period, these dates will change each year
        
    VACATION POINTS PER NIGHT/WEEK
    ==============================
        
                Adventure     Choice      Dream       Magic      Premier
    
    Studio      7/17/69      8/21/82    10/25/100   11/28/111   15/38/151
    (Sleeps 4)
    1-Bedroom   14/35/140   17/42/169   20/50/200   23/57/229   31/77/309
    (Sleeps 4)
    2-Bedroom   19/47/189   23/57/229   27/67/269   31/77/309   42/105/420
    (Sleeps 8)
    3-Bedroom   31/77/309   37/92/369   45/112/449  52/130/520  68/170/680
    (Sleeps 12)
    
            xx/xx/xx = Sun-Thurs/Fri-Sat/Weekly

    Just as an update...
    
    Cost is now $57/point and the annual fee for a 270 pointer (2 bedroom
    condo in "average" season) is about $750.
    
    If you call, they can send to you all the detailed information you ever
    want to see including a 1" thick "offering" which includes all of the
    legalese associated with the property.  They also include a nifty
    video.
    
    Looks to me like it would be a good deal for families that plan on
    taking regular, non-touring, vacations each and every year and can plan
    on scheduling well in advance. The free admission to Disney properties
    until the year 2000 makes it a very good deal if you have a young
    family; if that benefit were for the remaining 42 years of the deal, it
    would be a great deal.  Even their financing options are reasonable.
    
    Personally, it looks like a GREAT deal for Disney stockholders, as
    usual, but not so hot for me.
    
    Dave

    Anyone know if they are registered in New Hampshire yet?

    Does anyone have anymore info on this vacation club?  We are very
    interested in purchasing.  I talked with a man this morning who
    said he would be sending us information shortly.
    
    

My parents own down there and I've made use of some of their points. 
Feel free to contact me for more details.

	Dave Brunell
	297-3419

    re .27
    
    to add to my .25 since we have just come back from WDW......
    
    For us, the Vacation Club still does not make sense (and my comments
    MUST be read from MY perspective only).  
    
    First, we are not likely to use it every year, nor every other year.
    Then, from family experience with trading 5* timeshares, the tradeoff
    capability is not at all as good as it seems. Then, if you "run the
    numbers" (including annual costs and the fact that you own NOTHING when
    the term expires) and compare it to staying in comparable lodgings at
    WDW, the $$$ do not make good sense.  (Of course, if we had youngsters
    and were going to use it every year until the "free admission" expires,
    the $$$ would improve considerably.)  Finally, the location of the VC
    is nothing to brag about; you might as well get a condo just outside
    the park.  And, unlike the glossies and brochurres lead you to believe,
    they are not at all exclusive; there are a jillion VC condos with many
    more going up.
    
    The best thing you can do if it looks like you are about to plunk down
    your $15K or so (and make my stock go up, thank you), is to spend a
    couple of days of your next vacation in one of the VC condos. (Real
    good reason to go there if you were not otherwise planning a vacation.) 
    The WDW folks will try and get you to "buy" first and see later since
    you have a 30 day right of recission for any reason.  They are trying
    to get you to jump on the bandwagon; buy now while the good ones are
    still left.  Don't fall for that.  They are building MANY, MANY, MANY
    more VCs!!!!!  The supply will always meet the demand.
    
    Just my opinion........
    

    Thanks for the info.  We did receive by FEX X a video tape and
    information on Thursday.  We have not really mind up our
    minds yet.  If we do go for it, we would try the least
    expensive plan being the 190 point plan.  Maybe we will,
    maybe we won't
    
    Thanks again  

    We just returned from a 2 week stay at WDW.  The first week we had
    reservations for 2 adjoining rooms in the CBR.  When checking in, the
    manager came out and said that every so often they pick a family out
    of the computer and offer them a condo at the Vacation Club for the
    same price.  We excepted, thinking for sure that we would receive
    a sales pitch.  We were never approached at all during the week.
    
    We had a 2 bedroom suite with livingroom, kitchen, dining area, washer,
    dryer, jucuzzi, a large deck overlooking the golf course.  It was
    WONDERFUL! 
    
    The second week we had reserved a trailer at FW and although we love
    the campground, it was quite a disappointment.
    
    It's surprising how little time it takes to get used to luxury.  I'm
    afraid we will never be satisfied staying anyway else in WDW.
    
    Oh well, back to reality.
    

    Is the sofa bed in the one bedroom vacation homes comfortable
    enough to sleep on?  I've always heard very negative things
    about sofa beds.
    
    What are the parking arrangements?  How far away from your
    unit do you park?
    
    Thanks,
    Ruth

Hi Ruth,

We did not sleep on the sofa bed in the 1BR Vacation Home, but the furniture
was all first quality.  I'm sure it's typical for sofabed comfort.

Parking is in clusters around the center entrance to each building cluster.
You might walk a couple hundred feet at most; almost doorfront if there's
few cars already there.  Your door could be on the ground, second, or
third stories, and there are no elevators.

Bill A.

    Thanks Bill.  I'd love to stay in one of these units but would need
    to put the kids in the bedroom so we'd end up sleeping on the sofa
    bed.  So what's the typical comfort level of a sofa bed?  A friend
    equates them with "the rack."
    
    Thanks,
    Ruth

    I went ahead and made a reservation for the 1BR Vacation Home.  We
    will be staying for quite a while and feel the extra space and laundry
    facilities make it worth spending the extra money.
    
    We're hoping to have the kids sleep on the sofa bed and they're pretty
    excited about it so things should work out.  I still have a reservation
    for Fort Wilderness but expect to cancel it.
    
    Ruth

Ruth,  I don't think you'll regret it.  The accomodations were 
wonderful.  Can you believe we only got one voicemail message
inviting us to go to the sales presentation the whole time we were there?!!

Note that if you plan to go to the Winnie-the-Pooh character breakfast it
was fully reserved both Wed. and Sun. before we arrived, so call ahead.

Oh yes, a parking note...look to see if your parking area is used as
a bus turnaround -- there are only two that I remember -- and pull ALL
THE WAY UP TO THE CURB.  I asked the driver if it took special 
qualifications to drive a bus through those turns and he said "no, and
believe me when I say some guests learn the hard way!"

Bill A.

       Hi,
    
       I am a bit confused about this!  The brochure my wife and I got
       from them stated that this was until the year 2024 or something like
       that.   What happens after than, do you simply cease to own a 
       timeshare?
    
        thanks
        -jon
    
        a bit new to time shares...

Yup, that's essentially what happens.  Disney's Vacation Club is a "Limited
Real Estate Interest" and that's the "Limited" part.

Their circulars are more accurate when they state it's "like prepaying
your vacations for the next 25 years."

My problem with it is the rather high yearly maintenance fees, which are
(if I remember correctly) over $500 a year.  That's 4 nights hotel right
there.  And that fee can, and will, go up.

As I told the sales rep, it looks to me like it is geared to large families
making the larger investments.  For a couple, I think it's more costly than 
the typical vacation. 

Be sure to listen carefully and understand the "use year."  It will affect
when you receive your points, and, any banking or borrowing of points you
might want to do.  For example:  Since we like to travel in the Fall, it
would be ideal to have a use year that start in August or September.  If
our plans change, we still have all winter to try to use them, or, make
the decision to bank them without losing many of our points.  If our use
year started in January, and we planned vacation for September, and our
plans change, we lose our points for the "use year."  

We're not in it yet, and this is one of reasons.

Bill A.

    
    
    Few questions for either owners or folks who have stayed at this
    resort.
    
    - What means of resort transportation service this resort
      and what is travel time to/from TMK? We would probably need
      to be making trips back and forth for afternoon naps, etc. 
    
    - These are referred to as "homes". Are these detached structures
      or condos? 
      How do these differ from the Treehouse villas?
    
    - What swimming and playground facilities do this resort have?
    
    - Someone mentioned in a previous note that this resort is offered
      as an no-cost upgrade a lot..any particular reasons why this resort
      wouldn't be popular (expense, location, etc?)
    
    Thanks, Phil
    
    
    
    - What swimming/playground facilities exist at this resort?
      

Phil... here you go.
Also, read my trip report from last fall.
Bill A.
    
>    - What means of resort transportation service this resort
>      and what is travel time to/from TMK? We would probably need
>      to be making trips back and forth for afternoon naps, etc. 

Buses routes dedicated to the Vacation Club run through the complex, stopping
at each of the 5 bus stops.  During peak periods, park buses run every 15 
minutes.  Other times, they run on a shcedule which is posted at each stop.
The trip time is 5 to 15 minutes, depending on which stop you are.  Taking
teh bus is much faster than driving, since you would have to park in the
lots and take the tram.
    
>    - These are referred to as "homes". Are these detached structures
>      or condos? 
They are more like condos.  There are many groupings of semi-attached
buildings.  Each building is 2 or 3 stories high, and has a varing number
of units within.  Each building group has a parking area right in front.

>      How do these differ from the Treehouse villas?
Treehouse villas are spread out, through the woods near the Village Marketplace.
The Treehouse villas are much older, and recreation facilites are farther
away.
    
>    - What swimming and playground facilities do this resort have?
There are (I think) five pool areas spread out, so that there is one only
a short walk away.  Each has a small pool house with ice, vending, and
coin laundry (remember that one-bedroom and larger units have their own
non-coin lanundry.)  Each pool has a mini-playground.    The main 
complex has a restaurant, main pool, bigger playground, and bike and boat
rentals.  It's a 5 minute walk from about half of the complex.  It's a
longer walk (maybe 10 minutes?) from the rest.
    
>    - Someone mentioned in a previous note that this resort is offered
>      as an no-cost upgrade a lot..any particular reasons why this resort
>      wouldn't be popular (expense, location, etc?)
    
The vacation club is not generally "promoted" as a hotel destination because
members get to sign up for their alloted time. At certain times, they have
excess capacity and can offer it when similar "premium" resorts are full--
we were trying to get into the Beach Club, and the reservationist suggested
the Vacation Club.  You can also book it by choice -- if the computer model
says the members have left adequate space.

Bill A.

I just called the vacation club number because I got a flyer in the
mail about the new Disney Vero Beach club. 

As it turns out they have lowered the "purchase" cost to about $9200. 
This relates to 150 points which allows you to stay at the club for a 
certain number of nights depending on the "home" you choose for that stay.

example: In July the 150 points will get you 10 nights at a studio room.
	 Plus WDW passes for 10 days for 2 people. The number of passes
         you receive depends on the style of "home" you are using.
	 A 2 bedroom gets you 4 passes, etc. The pass offer is only
         good thru 1999.

You can also trade your points for nights at some of the WDW hotels.

If you go every other year like we do; I think that it may be a good
deal. You can "bank" your points from year to year.

We may actually go for it.

Doug

PS They also have various financing options.
   The "deed" is only good for 47 years.

PS The monthly fee at this time is $35 per month.

Doug

Well, we took the plunge for 150 points. It's not an investment by any means
but we figured it would proabably save us money since we are
addicted to WDW.

We go to WDW every-other year and had planned to stay on property so it
won't take too many years before we justify the cost.

There are some "perks" and there are some limitations involved 
(ie concerning how/when you bank and borrow points, maid service, etc.)

BTW...They have an exchange agreement with New Seabury resort on
Cape Cod (or any RCI resort).

I told the kids that we now own part of WDW ( for 47 years anyway)
they were quite excited.

According to Disney this is considered a 2nd home and 
the interest paid MAY be a tax deduction (but check on it before you
actually take any deductions).

If any of you want details just give me a call; I'll be getting hardcopy 
info soon.

Doug

    I also called recently because we are planning a family reunion, and
    also plan to return from time to time.  I was told that, although lower 
    priced, if you purchase Vero or Hilton Head, you do *not* get park passes. 
    We were weighing the Grand Villa that sleeps 12 and includes six passes, 
    but were informed the six passes would only be included if we purchased at 
    the MK-EPCOT-MGM site.

I am not sure about the passes if you purchase at Vero or Hilton but
I do know that if you trade your points to stay at one of the
regular WDW hotels (ie Poly, GF, Comtemp...etc) you do not get the
passes...you get them only if you stay at the Vacation club.

I believe that when we bought our points it was the same price
whether we purchased at the Vacation Club or at Vero/Hilton.
Maybe they have changed their pricing plan (we bought 150 points).

Doug

I just got a letter stating that the new Boardwalk
area will be offered as part of the vacation club.

Doug

>I just got a letter stating that the new Boardwalk
>area will be offered as part of the vacation club.

Yes, a section of the resort (I forget how many rooms) will be 
reserved for the Vacation Club.  

The Boardwalk resort is supposed to open in summer of 1996.

-- Nina

    
    The "hotel" part of the Boardwalk resort will be on the lake, facing
    the Beach and Yacht Club resorts.  The "vacation club" part (actually a
    separate resort) will essentially be on the canal to MGM, facing the
    Swan.  The vacation club will have more rooms than the hotel.
    
    While I was at the Yacht Club last summer, they had a breakfast
    gathering with the general manager of the Y&BCR and other department
    heads, including the head of the Boardwalk project.  She had drawings
    of how the resort would be - in fact, the outside work was well on its
    way to being done.  I asked her about transportation to the parks and
    she said they would have the same as the Beach, Yacht, Swan, and
    Dolphin resorts.  She did admit that just adding two new resorts to the
    mix would severely overstrain the system.  She said they were
    considering other options, such as breaking them into two groups of
    three resorts.
    
    She also said they were considering restoring the tram service to
    EPCOT, but they were concerned that it would affect the atmosphere they
    were trying to create with the boardwalk.
    
    --Jay
    

    The following is part of my work-in-progress (a very overdue trip
    report: trip date 2/17-25!), entered here because I doubt I'm the
    *only* vacationer who was temporarily flummoxed in this situation.
    How did Birnbaum, Delta and I all miss the boat on this?!
     
    ........................................................................
    We kicked off our WDW frenzy with the 7:30am Pooh and Tigger breakfast at 
    Olivia's Restaurant.  We drove over there, and I had a (somewhat minor) 
    problem with that.  Birnbaum ('95, bought in October when 
    I made the reservations) says Olivia's is in the Disney Vacation Club 
    Resort.  Birnbaum's map shows such a resort, so I knew in which direction 
    to head, but (silly me!) when I got into the area I looked for "Disney 
    Vacation Club Resort" *signs*.   There were none; just "Old Key West" in 
    the same apparent location.  Now that I'm back in Massachusetts, I've 
    tried to resolve what appeared at the time to be a case of indiscriminate 
    renaming, with not so much as a fine-print "the resort formerly known as 
    Disney Vacation Club Resort".  (This confusion was exceedingly annoying 
    to a night-owl at 6:45am who had not had her caffeine yet; hey, I'm on 
    vacation to get away from "I'm-renaming-this-department-because-I-say-so" 
    territorial marking behavior at some companies.)  Disney Vacation Club 
    Resort is not, in fact, a "resort" but a timesharing program, which 
    explains its absence in the usually-excellent Disney signage (it's not 
    a PLACE, it's a CONCEPT!).  My beef would be with Birnbaum except that 
    the Delta Dream Vacation booklet also declares Olivia's location to be 
    "Disney Vacation Club Resort", again with no mention of Old Key West.
    .......................................................................
    
    The breakfast was decent, Pooh and Tigger were very endearing, and the
    waitpersons all wore shirts made of the (butterfly pattern) cotton
    fabric I used for one of Alex's sundresses  :-}
    
    Leslie                       
    
    

    When we were there last year, all the signs said Disney Vacation Club
    Resort.  I'm really surprised they changes the name and didn't let
    anyone know....that is so unlike Disney.

    
    We recently received some promotional material from Disney.  In it they
    gave an estimate of the amount of time you'd need to enjoy the various
    parks.  And last, but not least, on the list was:
    
            Disney Vacation Club  --  1 hour
    
    I hope there aren't too many people who think they're going to be in
    for a fun time.
    
    --Jay
    

    Plus, they have booths set up at all the parks and hotel lobbies.
    Disney really seems to be pushing this.
    
    Julie
    

    re .50  I can't swear that there wasn't ONE sign for the Disney
    Vacation Club (remember, 6:45 is "the middle of the night" for me)
    but if there was an initial sign pointing me in the correct general
    direction, it was not followed up with subsequent signs; I entered
    the "Key West Resort" (which appeared to be its own separate entity,
    just like the CBR is) with many misgivings but finally saw a sign
    WITHIN Key West Resort indicating that Olivia's was somewhere on the
    (Key West) property.
    
    It's not as if Key West Resort was brand-new; there are notes in this
    string from '92 mentioning it.  So why do Birnbaum and Delta persist
    in locating Olivia's "at" a timesharing (excuse me, "vacation club")
    program?  That's like saying the Mumblesomething Conference Room is
    located in Digital's pension plan....
    
    Leslie

We did get a mailing that they changed the name to Key West Resort.

I think that they did this because:

	- The Vacation Club plan allows you to stay at a number
          of resorts not just the Key West resort. So by changing
          the name they promote this concept. It promotes the idea of 
          it not being a timeshare but a vacation club.
 
	- Disney can book rooms there now just like any other resort
          and people will feel like they are not in a timeshare.


Misc info:

The Vacation Club is not an investment but, we found if you visit
Disney often and you stay on property, it will save you money over
time. It also has some small "perks" such as being able to use
any of the resort pools, etc. You get free passes thru 1999.

It is more like a "vacation plan" than an traditional timeshare because it
allows to stay a minimum of 1 night (the maximum depends on how
many points you buy and what time of year you visit).We look at it as a 
way to stay in the more expensive resorts that we normally could not 
afford plus our kids can take advantage of it when they grow up. The deal 
is good for 47 years.

Also, you do not have to stay at the Key West resort. You can
choose to stay at many of the regular resorts such as the Poly,
Grand Floridian, Yacht and Beach Club, etc. You can also elect to
stay at the Disney Vero Beach Resort or their Hilton Head Island
Resort. They also have an arrangement with a timeshare company
(it used to be RCI but it has changed) so that you can stay
at hundreds of other resorts around the world.

Doug

A friend has a timeshare through "Endless Vacation" (RCI), which has
the option of trading his week at his "normal" site to one of thousands
world-wide.  One of them is "Disney Vacation Club at Walt Disney World
Resort".  Am I incorrect in assuming this is the same place/thing as
the topic of this note?  If not, anyone know if all the same privs
would apply - free passes etc?

I am not sure if the free passes would apply but I doubt it.

You can call the DVC at 1 800 800 9800 and ask.

Doug

PS I also think that Disney now trades with another timeshare
    company instead of RCI.

Scott,

That's news to me...never heard of the "more restricted" stuff.

If you find out let me know. We were given no restrictions when
we stayed there. 

Thanks,

Doug

It's just the disclaimer they have in the information they sent to me; I assumed
that the restrictions (if any) were made clear in the actual offering paperwork.

The break point for whatever restrictions might exist is at 220 points, which is
the level we'd probably be most interested in anyway.

How far ahead do you think a person would need to book for October?  If we do
this, it's obviously going to take a couple of months to close (at least 1
month, since the only way we'd go is via a resale, and we have to wait the 30
days for Disney to say whether they want to buy it back or not) - is April/May
too late for making reservations?

--Scott

Scott,

If I remember correctly we made our reservations for July 
about 7 months before.

note:
We did not have quite enough points so we made the last three
days a "cash reservation", until our April use year points
became available, then I called and changed the cash reserv.
to points. This way we "locked-up" the room until we had all
the points although they do not guarentee this but, it works
most of the time. 

Doug

Scott,

I called the DVC ( 1 800 800 9800) and talked to Betty.

The only "resrtiction" is the fact that with 150 points,
if you want to timeshare outside of Disney, you will not
have enough points to reserve a full week at those 
"outside resorts". You would need 220 pts to do this on
a yearly basis. You can still stay at these places with
150 points but you will need to bank/borrow pts to do so.


For us it makes no diff sense we only stay at Disney and
go every other year. However, if you want to use your points
every year and also opt for places other than Disney yearly, 
then you want at least 220 points.

So in reality, it is not really a restriction, you just have to
plan on what you want to use your points for.

Doug

Thanks for the info Doug.

Looks like the spouse (and kids) and I have decided to look seriously at the
resale market for a DVC "membership."  Now the only trick is in setting up the
financing, and getting all of the details worked out.

--Scott