Conference 7.286::golf

    A couple of things come to mind that can cause a slice.  One is
    what I call the over the top swing, outside in swing plane (can
    also cause a hook if you have fast hands), the other is an open
    club face at impact.  To determine which it is, watch the flight
    of the ball.  If it starts off left of the intended line, it's most
    probably an outside in move.  If it starts off on line or to the
    right, it's an open club face.
    
    Going over the top is caused by the fear of it going right or
    misalingment.  Go to the practice field and set up to hit a shot.
    Then put a club down at your feet, it should be parallel to the
    intended line.  If it's not then place the club at our feet parallel
    to the line then address the ball.  Make sure that your feet, hips
    and shoulders are also parallel.  Then start the backswing square
    to the line.  If you take inside, you'll end up over the top to
    keep it from going right.  As for the fear of it going right, the
    only cure I know of is to (oh my God fears don't) hook it.  I believe
    that you have to fight it going left.  Some how you'll have to convince
    youself that you're not going to let it go left.  Easier said than
    done.  If it starts left then goes right and you can't stop it,
    play it.
    
    The open club face is a bit more subtle.  Chance are that you lined
    up correctly, and the take away is good.  When you start the down
    swing you'll notice that your left leg will be stiff (assuming that
    you're right handed).  Then you head and shoulders will go by the
    ball causing the club face to be open at impact.  This is caused
    by trying to hit the ball too hard.  Without seeing your swing I
    really can't tell, but I'll bet that this is the problem.  When
    you move your head, the left knee will straighten up, the hip will
    clear early and it will look like an outside in swing.  The way
    to cure this is again mental but there are some things you can do
    to help.  Try not to hit the ball so hard.  Develop an attitude
    of 'getting the ball in play' off the tee and tell yourself you've
    got the right club when hitting to the green.  Then when you start
    your swing, think about keeping your head still and keep your legs
    in the swing.  Don't let your left leg get stiff and let the momentum
    of the swing clear the hip.  The mental image to have is that of
    a wagon wheel with your head at the hub and your arm and club as
    a spoke.  Work on this at the range and see if it helps.
    
    On more thing is grip pressure.  If you grip the club too tightly
    at address you'll have a tendancy to let it go at the top.  By the
    time you regrip the club the face will be open.
    
    Good luck.....  Let me know how/if it works.  If you need more details
    send mail.  If things get worse, you didn't hear it here.  If things
    get better I'll send you the bill....... <!8>
    
    
    					The teacher
    					     KO

    
    Make sure you have a one piece take away.  By this I mean that your
    arms and hands and club should all stay in the same position as
    at the address, this is only for the first foot or so of the take
    away.
    
    Also concentrate on taking the club slowly back and straight back
    along the line for the first foot or so, and keep the club low to
    the ground for this foot.  This sets up a good arc and makes it
    easy to return on the same straight line.
    
    This has always worked for me when I get erratic.
    
    --Bob

    Before you go off mucking around with the swing check some of the
    basics out. Start with your grip. Make sure your not slightly opened
    or close. Then look at your address. Are you standing open? Have
    you moved the forward or back from where you normally hit it. Is
    the club aligned correctly or better yet are you aligned correctly.
    How's the posture at address. Probably you'll find something wrong
    here which is manifesting itself in your swing.
    
    Swings are a touchy thing and I wouldn't mess with one unless I
    had a lot of time and a reoccuring problem.
    
    Roger

  The same type of thing was happening to me several weeks ago. I
    couldn't correct the slice and went to the pro that I have taken
    lessons from off and on for 2 years.
    He said that I was dropping my left shoulder as I started my backswing.
    This caused 2 things to happen: 1) the swing became outside/in and
    2) put to much weight on my left leg. The result = slice.
    Since the lesson the slicing has markedly been reduced although
    at times I seem to be hooking some shots.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
                                         Ken
    
    

    I second .3.  After reading every book, magazine, and tip I could,
    I have found that returning to fundamentals is the only sound approach.
    Most of the 'tips' (eg. magazine pointers) are gimmicks and don't
    withstand the test of time.  BTW, I like Hogan's book for a good,
    succinct reference on fundamentals.
    
    It is incredibly easy for your grip to change over time without
    noticing.  Since my return to fundamentals, I have been astonished
    at this and at how seemingly minute, trivial grip changes affect
    the entire swing and shot.
    
    With respect to alignment, this was one of my own breakthroughs.
    I always thought I was properly aligned until I started using the 'spot'
    technique of aiming at a spot a foot or two if front of the ball.
     It turned out that I consistently aligned to the right of the target
    with an open clubface.  All of a sudden, the cause of my push-fade was
    obvious and easily correctable.  BTW, in the Search for the Perfect
    Swing, they show the foot positions of pros versus duffers.  Pros
    consistently have the same foot position swing after swing, while
    high handicappers tend to vary their foot position from swing to
    swing...contributing to erratic shot making.
    

    
    Drastically overcorrect!  If you hit a bananna slice, set up
    to hit a duck hook and vice versa.
    At the driving range, take a low iron and make believe you're
    in the woods punching out by hitting a 3/4 swing.  Close your
    stance and swing drastically AROUND your body to hit a low hook.
    Really try to make it bend.  Then open your stance and swing 
    upright and cut across the ball and hit a big slice.
    Alternate between the two, hitting a couple of each.
    Visualize the ball curving around that last tree.
    
    Try it with your driver with a full swing.  Hit duck hooks and
    bananna slices.
    
    Gradually work your way back to a happy medium.
    
	Tom
    

    I have to disagree with you Tom. Drastically overcorrecting a
    swing can lead to serious swing disorders and the method you
    stated should only be practiced by the most experienced and
    talented of golfers. For the average golfing Joe, having one
    swing, repeated over and over will produce the best results.
    I totally agree with .3 and .5 in that the basic fundamentals
    should be reviewed and worked on (preferably under the watchful
    eye of a pro) every so often. It's amazing how easily bad habits
    can be picked up without even knowing it!
    
    -rick-

    
    I certainly didn't mean he should take my method to the course.
    It's just a way of really "feeling" how a hook or slice feels
    and then applying it to his own swing (moderately).
    How many times have you run into the player who hits a slice
    and says he never hooked a ball in his life.  That player will
    always hit a slice and always complain about it.  You can't take
    a slicer, have them make a minor change to their grip or stance,
    and suddenly produce a draw.  Proper swing path must be totally
    obvious and, to me, the best way is to exaggerate it.  Minor
    subtleties just aren't apparent enough to most golfers.
    My suggestions are really obvious to the golfers body and, I'd
    bet, would correct a slice within a large bucket.
    
    Also, I have no idea of the level of .0's golf and I'm not
    insinuating he's a complaining slicer...
    
    Down the middle!
    Tom
    

    	Just a few thoughts on previous replies.  Tom in .8, helped
    me to cure my slicing problem.  I still today fade the ball from
    left to right, but in a controled manner as opposed to slicing.
    The tip he gave me that helped was in my grip.  I had as told before,
    moved my right hand more under the club, but hadn't changed my left
    hand.  This was causing my hands to fight each other.  One in a
    hook position and the other in a slice position.  What Tom did to
    help me was point out that the 'V' that's formed betweem your index
    finger and thumb on the club, on both hands should be pointing in
    the same direction.  When I made this adjustment in my left hand,
    I really noticed the difference in both the slicing, and distance
    I was getting off the tee.
    	Another thing I've read is from KO. who plays a pretty good
    game, at least his scores indicate it.  But Kevin, you said keep
    your head still.  I son't agree with this.  I watched 'Inside the
    PGA' this week on ESPN and one of the tips they gave is to let your
    head and neck flow with your spine on your takeaway and followthru.
    Later as I was watching the Kemper Open on TV, I noticed that all
    the pros, either move their head with the takeaway, or position
    it by cocking their head before their takaway, so as to get a good
    turn in theri backswing.  And they also allow it to come up with
    the followthru.  If you don't, you can't possibly have a good
    followthru.  Now this doesn't mean, move your eyes too.  You have
    to keep your eye on the ball all the way thru impact.
    	I hope you've had some success in correcting your slice Per-Olof,
    but don't be dissapointed, if you have a fade you cannot correct.
    Learn to play it.  Lee Trevino has made a lot of money playing a
    fade in his day.  And as long as it's not a slice, but a controled
    fade, don't worry about it to much.  Most pros would love to be
    able to fade every iron shot into a green, as it provides a much
    softer landing shot, and you can hold more greens with a fade shot
    than you can with a draw or hook. 
                                                            Beak

    	POL, congrats on solving your problem.  That didn't take to
    long.  On your comments "I'm surprized my playing partners didn't
    see it right away."  It all depends on if they're your playing
    partners, or if you had some kind of a match going.  They probably
    saw it but didn't tell you!!!  *-)  *-).  
                                                    Beak

    
    Been out of town for a while so I just got to read this.  Glad to
    see that the slice has been fixed.  Now on to getting even with
    your playing partners for not noticing.  Take them out on the course
    and shoot 75.  That will make them notice your swing.
    
    As to some of the other replies, fundamentals was what I was TRYING
    to preach.  The point of the reply is that you can tell alot about
    a swing problem by the filght of the ball.  If the shot starts off
    straight or to the left of the intended line then slices then the
    indication is a bad set up.  If it goes right to right then you're
    not staying behind the ball (commonly called moving your head).
    Beak you're right, you have to move when you swing.  If you keep
    your head perfectly still, you'd screw yourself into the ground
    and folks could use the top of your head for a tee.  However in
    order to get the club face back to the ball square, the upper body
    must be in the same relative position as it was when you took the
    club away.  If you move your head and shoulders in front of the
    ball then the club face will be open (causing right to right action.)
    However saying that to someone might confuse them.  My experience
    is that telling someone to keep their head still makes it easier
    on them.
    Oh well not to worry the slice is gone!
    
    
    						KO

	 One other  thing  I  had been sloppy with - I tend(ed?) to grip the
	 club  a little to firmly, and also too far up on the shaft - proved
	 by  the  excessive wear on my golf gloves where the top of the grip
	 was  abrading  the glove.  A less firm grip helped me roll over the
	 hands  more  consistently in the follow-through.  The swing is much
	 better now.

	 -- POL

    re. 11
    
    There was no money on it (just braggin' rights) but after I had
    such a miserable round Saturday (one banana ball after another),
    my father-in-law told me he'd noticed a loop in my swing that 
    brought my right elbow out and caused an outside-in swing (which
    is guaranteed to produce either a monster slice or a dead pull
    every time). I don't say he withheld the data intentionally, but
    I sure would have appreciated knowing this, say, on the third or
    fourth hole, rather than the 19th!
    
    Frank