Conference 7.286::golf

    
    A downhill lie, chipping over a trap, to a green sloping away and a
    tightly tuck pin!!!
    
    Scull city!!!!
    
    Joe
    

    Lately, it's a 50-yard wedge from a perfect fairway lie, to a pin
    in the middle of a wide, deep green. I'd rather hit a 2 iron from
    under a bare lie in trees, over sand, over water, than have to hit
    that damn wedge to reach a par 5 in 3. It's added 5-6 strokes to
    my scores in the last few weeks.

    
    Downhill lie in the sand. (ie left foot lower than right foot for a
    right handed player.)
    
    If I get it out of the trap I'm happy, but usually I just get it to
    a different section of the trap.  From other lies in the trap, I don't
    seem to have a problem getting it atleast out of the trap.
    
    Steve
    

    
    I agree with Joe's reply in .1, but I have two possible results. I 
    either peek and skull it or I try to be to easy with it and chilly-
    dip it.....:-{
    
    Gene

    	For me it's a long shot out of a trap.  Fairway traps have always
    given me a problem.  You see pros hit some nice shots out of fairway
    traps, as long as the ball isn't burried, but I've never done it.
    I knwo how to hit the shot, that is, hit the ball first and use
    an extra club, but just have problems doing it.  I always either
    take to much sand and leave the ball well short, or catch it thin,
    and either roll it out of the trap, or leave it in the trap.
    
    Beak

    
    I think some of the shots mentioned are hard because people may
    have expectations that are too high.  For example the down hill
    trap shot to a tight pin, this is one where you just can't keep
    the ball close to the flag.  If you stop it on the green you are
    doing well.
    
    On trap shots in general you should be satisfied if you comply with
    ruless #1 & 2.  (Most golfers would do well to satisfy only rule
    #1.)  These rules are:
    
    Rule 1 - GET THE BALL OUT OF THE TRAP!
    Rule 2 - Get the ball on the green
    Rule 3 - Get the ball near the hole.
    
    I saw a good tip that has helped me tons with fairway traps.
    1. Keep the lower body quiet.  The swing is almost totally arms
    & sholders very little leg movement.
    2. Think of trying to make contact with the ball at the equator.

     I would have to agree with Joe ,the downhiller, especially
    in a bunker, or even in a fairway where you have to clear water
    to hit a green(I have nightmares of 4 North ,Stow Acres, hitting 2 from
    a downhill lie).
    
     I "whip lash" at the ball instead of taking the normal swing
    play the ball a little ahead and widen the stance. It's the rush
    to get it over with!
    And triple bog city!
    
    In reverse, I LOVE UPHILL LIES ! I guess the bottom part of
    the swing path is easier to manage on an uphiller.???
    
                                 Angelo
    
    
    
     
    

     RE: .8
    
>         I "whip lash" at the ball instead of taking the normal swing
>    play the ball a little ahead and widen the stance. It's the rush
>    to get it over with!   ^^^^^
         		    ?????
    
    
    
     
    

    Good point by Gene , Angie...  ball should be back. This because
    the ground will be higher the more back you play the ball. Making
    hitting the ball "before" the ground alot easier. I think of it
    like playing a punch down type of shot, depending on the severity
    of the downhill slope you may need to drop a club or two , to prevent
    closing the clubface and hitting it too low. Make sure your shoulders
    are angled with the slope... and your swing follows with the shoulder
    angle. It doens't help when your on Stow North 4rth hole!! 
    
    By the way Angie... Congratulations to your son Mark, quite a honor
    being most improved at Stow. Mark has tons of talent! And quite
    a few of my greenbacks ;( . Stop teaching him so much, he knows
    enough!
    
    Walt

Narrow fairway, hazards left and right. If I have a driver in my hand, 
I never know where the ball will wind up. It'll generally be "out 
there" (I don't top or pop very often), but God only knows where.

The drive-for-show, putt-for-dough theory is a crock if you can't keep 
the ball in play off the tee.

RE: .2


}    Lately, it's a 50-yard wedge from a perfect fairway lie, to a pin
}    in the middle of a wide, deep green. I'd rather hit a 2 iron from
}    under a bare lie in trees, over sand, over water, than have to hit
}    that damn wedge to reach a par 5 in 3. It's added 5-6 strokes to
}    my scores in the last few weeks.


Use to have this same problem on shorter par fives but it is easily
solved.......

Chances are most of us aren't going to make a short (471 - 500) par
five in two anyway.....

Chances are most of us are not use to hitting 50 yard wedge shots or
any type of half/three quarter shots so.........!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll hit a 3 iron/ 2 iron for my second shot on these holes to insure
I leave myself at least a full wedge/9/8 into the green on my third
shot......

	After taking this approach I've had many more birdies on short
par 5's and fewer skulled half wedges.....

	Try it, if it works fine...if not, nothing lost.....

    re: -1  Good advice!
    
    I started doing this a couple of weeks ago on 5 and 6, Stow south.
    These should be easy par fives, but they do punish a fader/slicer.
    So I've started playing them with a 3-iron off the tee, then a 3
    wood or 5 wood, which leaves me perhaps a 6 or 7 iron into the green.
    This strategy has given me a bird(!), a couple of pars, and at worst
    some bogeys. Once I took a 9 on the 5th hole -- twice in the woods
    --when I used to crank away off the tee with a driver.
    
    I'm more confident with a mid-iron into these greens, and at least
    now I'm staying in the fairway for the second and third shots. If
    I miss the green, it's not by much, and I can get up and down.
    
    I've also tried laying up on #10, which resulted in a birdie --
    at last!!!-- and 18, which resulted in my beating the guy who has
    been my nemesis for years. On 18 South, I hit a 5 iron short of
    the water -- he went in -- then 3 wood, 5 iron, chip close and one
    putt for par.
    
    So, good advice. I'm starting to play to my strengths, even if it
    means longer third shots. It works better in the long run.

                      <<< Note 812.13 by LESCOM::CLOSE >>>
                         -< Good advice, and it works >-

Dave, that's what they call in this business a "kludge." When it 
becomes more than a short-term fix, it's called a "mistake." If you've 
got a match that matters to you, yeah, play to your strengths. But 
don't give up on learning that touch wedge. I guarantee you, once you 
start hitting it more consistently, you'll be able to get that wedge a 
whole lot closer to the pin than a longer iron (unless you need 
backspin to get it close).

What's worked for me: Keep your weight on your left side (I assume 
you're right-handed) throughout the swing; determine your necessary 
power by varying your backswing with a few practice swings, otherwise 
make the same smooth, accelerating swing; BELIEVE in your conclusions;
and make the swing. The most likely source of error, for me at least,
is second-guessing myself in mid swing and either lunging to add a bit
more power or, worse, decelerating to take some power off the swing. 

I'm a terrible judge of distance, so I still don't have a lot of luck 
getting it real close, but I very rarely skull or chili-dip, so I'm 
usually at least on the green.

Good luck, Dave.

Re: -.1

>Dave, that's what they call in this business a "kludge."

However in the golf business they call it strategic golf! ;-)  I will agree
that you should work to be able to hit most shots required reasonably well
(God knows sooner or later you'll need it.)  However, you are better off playing
the course in such a way as to maximize the strong point of your game.

I agree with a couple back on South South the average human being will
significantly improve their score if they have a club in their hands that won't
reach the woods on the right.  There are very few people that can hit a long
draw consistently.  You also must hit a long ball if you are trying to go for
#10 in two.  That is a good 3 shot hole, especially when the tee is back by the
barn.

Larry

    
    What about the downhill put !!!
    
    My course has two greens with downhill puts. If you hit your
    approach shot to the middle of the green it will roll down off the
    bottom. If you hit it high and it stays up chances are better than
    not that the put will go right past the cup. As near to impossible
    to one put as any i'v ever seen!!
    
    John-
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Yup, I remember #5 South painfully well: season before last, hit
    two "career" woods (drive, 5-wood) within 50 yards, then tried to
    finesse a wedge, wound up in a bunker and took a 7! One of my opponents
    tactfully suggested that a monument be erected on the spot from
    which I misplayed my third, saying "He was here in 2!"
    

    The only way to describe one of the worse shots I've had to
    attempt (and I use the word attempt because that's about all
    that resulted...just an attempt) is to illustrate it:
    
    		--                        Green is over here
    ball wedged	  \
    in side ----->|     ---               
    in tall	  \____/
    grass
                    ^^
                   bunker
    
    Ok golf fans, who wants to take a shot at it?
    
    Patti

    re: .19
    
    	I can relate to that shot...had it twice this year and proceeded
    to dump it in the trap each time because of looking up to see the
    shot.......guess more practice on these type of shots is about the
    only answer I've found....and even then......

    re .19
    
    You could always pop it out of the bunker away from the green or
    sideways.   Sometimes it just make more sense to not go towards the 
    green.
    
    --Bob
    

	If there is no lip on the green side of the trap & the sand is
	firm you could try putting it through the trap.

	Larry

    
    	Similar but not exactly the same.  
    
    	I remember reading in GD, (Sept issue I think) about some rising
    	amatuer who was faced with a similar shot. Although it wasn't in a
    	trap, the person had a steep downhill lie with not much green to
    	work with.  His solution was to aim away from the green, and play 
    	the ball in front of his left foot.  The resulting shot was up and 
    	back over his shoulder and  onto the green.  I'm not saying that 
    	this should be a shot tried in the trap, but it did catch my
    	intrest.
    
    	Steve_who_got_to_play_27_holes_yesterday

    .9
    
      by whip lash , I mean fast back swing,
     fast down swing, no hip and body turn and you just lash
    at the ball with your arms and hands. Usually ends up
    in a skull-shank low liner to the right! The outside of the
    face hits the inside of the ball.
                       Angelo
    
                       
      
    It's a "get it over with" swing. 
                         
          
      
    

    
    RE: .24
    
    I was not questioning the "whip lash" statement, I was questioning
    the "ahead" statement (as indicated by the arrows)...
    
    Gene

    Anyone see the guy hitting a 3-wood out of the greenside bunker
    on TV last weekend? It was the Isuzu tournament (won by Peter
    Jacobsen). In effect, this guy (whose name escapes me) had a long
    traverse over the sand to very little green, and stroked a 3-wood
    as though it were a putter; the result was quite satisfactory, as
    I recall...about 5 feet past the pin.
    
    	Frank

    TRYING TO SWING "EASY" ON ANY SHOT !!! 9 out of 10 times
    I will miss-hit the ball (top it or hit fat) when trying
    to take a nice easy swing
    
    THE MAD HACKER

Note 816.0                      Who's Greg Norman                     No replies
USEM::VOUTSELAS                                      27 lines  15-NOV-1989 11:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Walt,
    
       thanks, I'll tell Mark about your comment.
    
       He thinks a lot of you as a golfer and person,
       which is hard to understand. How can you like
       someone who drives it 320 and punches 9 irons 150!
      
       It's a good thing I pay no attention to your game
       but just sit back and admire all those guided
       missiles !!
    
       Would anyone believe that from the BLUES on 18
       South you were 15 feet from the brook!!!
    
       I saw it, and still  can't believe   it,  every
       time I play that hole. 
       
       Looking forward to next year......
                                    Angie...
               
                                               
       
    
    
    
    

    Walt and Gene:
    
     I'm terrible (as Walt knows) on downhill lies, BUT I was
    told the club face hits early on uphill and late on downhill.
    
    I'm no expert, but I'm sure I saw this in GD or GM???
    
    Reasoning is weight on left side on downhill makes the 
    swing have a further ahead bottom of the down swing plane??
    
    And opposite on uphill? I think I play the ball back
    on uphill: you guys are saying do the same on downhill.    
    
                                 I'll try anything
                                 Any comments?
                                            Ang.
    

    
    	The ball should be played back on downhill lies and forward
    	on uphill lies...
    
    	As Walt said in an earlier reply on a down hill lie the club
    	is going to hit the ground sooner in the swing curve and the
    	oposite on an uphill lie...
    
    
    	Gene

    Must have read it backwards.
    I'll try it. 
    Angelo
    
    

>    I'm no expert, but I'm sure I saw this in GD or GM???
>    
>    Reasoning is weight on left side on downhill makes the 
>    swing have a further ahead bottom of the down swing plane??
>    
>    And opposite on uphill? I think I play the ball back
>    on uphill: you guys are saying do the same on downhill.    

	
   Angelo,
	
	 With your weight left side, you will produce an arc that 
        "bottoms out" nearer the left side. But, to properly strike
	the ball with a downward impact with the ball set off your
	front foot, would be real tough... you'd almost have to 
	walk through the shot, like Gary Player. With the ball back
        ... where the ground is higher, it's much easier to strike
	the ball with a downward impact (before hitting the ground).
	This way you'll get the height, and avoid hitting it fat,
	or topping it. 

	On uphill lies I move the ball forward, weight back. This helps
	making contact easier, and allows me to follow through onto my
	left foot as normal. If I were to play it back, it would force
	me to keep my weight back throughout the swing, to avoid 
	topping it.  

	Just doesn't seem right to do the opposite?? Sometimes Golf Digest
	will give different methods of executing the same shot... maybe
	there's more than one way?? Either way... it's not easy :) .

	Good luck,

	Walt
	
	

    Walt,
       ...next spring you and I will spend all day on 4 North
    hitting from downhill lies. Or we can try 5 South.
    Tell Eunhwa to pack a lunch for both of us.Or even better
    bring Eunhwa. She may be "scratch" by then!
       I know you helped ,and also notes in this file,on
    bunker shots , I should be better next year, I even ordered
    a new sand wedge from "Chuckie". and a 60 degree third
    wedge. It's getting the confidence to execute now.
                             Thanks,Angie
                                       
                                       
    
           
       

    Hi Angie,
    
    	I will definitely pack lunches for you guys and me! I could use the
    	practice myself.  I don't have too much problem with the uphill
    	lies, but the down hill lies are a big problem.  I can't seem to
    	get the height.   
    
    	See you in the Spring,
    
    Eunhwa

    Also remember that when you play from a downhill lie, the effective
    loft of your club is reduced so you have to use a higher number
    club to get the ball in the air. On an uphill lie, you have to use
    a less lofted club or the shot will end up short because the upslope
    increases the loft.
    My favorites though are the sidehill lies !!
    
    THE MAD HACKER 

    THE HARDEST SHOT IN GOLF IS THE NEXT SHOT YOU HIT AFTER A CHILLY DIP OR
    DUFF INTO A LAKE.  
    
    SO CAL DANDY

    Off the first tee, with a crowd (probably other members of your
    Digital Golf League) after bragging about 250 yard boomers at the
    driving range!!!
    
    

	Last week's tournament at Pebble Beach highlighted one of the
	hardest shots in golf, the tee shot on the 18th at Pebble Beach.
	If you miss it left you are in the Pacific, if you miss it right
	you are out of bounds, if you miss it straight you've got a
	pine tree in the path of your second shot.

    Did anyone see Mark McGuire of the Oakland A's on the 18th ??
    
    Tee shot found the beach, actually the edge of the water. The waves
    kept moving it up the beach...
    
    Mark decided to go for the green, rather than chip back onto the
    fairway...He took out about a 4 iron adn dodging the wave, hit his
    ball into a rock. The ball bounced back at him into the ocean..
    
    He should have taken a wedge, popped it onto the fairway, then
    gone for the green...Oh well. The camera's mic. picked up various
    curses and profanities. He was having a good time..
    
    Jim