| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1417.1 | | NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO | | Mon Jan 13 1992 15:15 | 6 |
| Consider the investment potential. Since either is a very good club,
it is more likely that the Pings will hold value and have resale
appeal. The Hogan's will have somewhat less resale value or trade-in
value. If you can justify the expenditure, take the Pings.
SCD
|
| 1417.2 | Buy whatever works for you!! | BOOKIE::BARBER | | Mon Jan 13 1992 15:19 | 8 |
| Linda, being the scratch golfer that you are.....not to worry, because
anything that you put into those hands of yours is sure to be a winner!
Like I said earlier in our conversation, it's whatever works for you,
but just remember, your my partner in NCC's member/member, so you
better buy something that works!!
M. Barber
|
| 1417.3 | try them first if possible.... | TRLIAN::GORDON | | Mon Jan 13 1992 15:30 | 6 |
| check the RAM Lazer Fx also....
make sure you try the clubs out if possible as some(ping) are cast
clubs and some(hogan) are forged clubs....depending on what you
presently use you may not adjust or clubs simply don't feel right
to you when going from cast to forged or versa...
|
| 1417.4 | | TOLKIN::HOGAN | | Mon Jan 13 1992 15:59 | 19 |
|
I may get hammered here but I would strongly suggest you look into
the clone market before you go ahead and spend the kind of money
they are asking for the brands mentioned. Pings have to be the over
priced golf club ever and the Hogans are no bargain either. I guarentee
you this much. You put a good swing on a set of clone ping or hogan
edge clubs and you will get the same result as if you put the same
swing on the brand name but it is going to cost you about 250 dollars
less with the clone on the hogan maybe more. I don't know what the
pings are going for these days but if they are a grand you stand to
save some major dollars. But i understand wanting the brand name and
if you decide to go that way I would go with the ping. I had a set
of the hogan edge and they just didn't feel real solid to me but then
again I'm not a cavity back guy.
Have you checked out the taylor made icw11's. It's a blade look but
it is perimeter weighted.
Pete
|
| 1417.5 | | CPDW::LACAIRE | | Mon Jan 13 1992 16:48 | 10 |
| Linda,
If you want quality IMHO it's the Pings. The Pings are heat-treated
where the clones are not. Try places like Wayland (MA) CC and Tele Pro
(mail order) for discounts. Shop for the lowest price. Make sure you get
the right lie (dot color). If they are too expensive have Gene Kelley or
one of the other club makers in here make you a set of clones.
Have fun,
-Steve.
|
| 1417.6 | quality from an assembly line????!!!!{;^).. | TRLIAN::GORDON | | Mon Jan 13 1992 17:29 | 10 |
| re: .5
you can get just as good quality in a clone, in fact it may be
even better because the builder has a personal interest in seeing
the customer is satisfied....if Linda checks these notes files
I think she'll find many satisfied customers of some of our club
builders in here and one that comes to mind is a set of Edge clones
that were shipped overseas. I'm sure there are other examples...
|
| 1417.7 | Probably Doesn't Matter, But... | MRKTNG::VARLEY | | Mon Jan 13 1992 18:27 | 16 |
| Only the EDGE is forged, but perimeter weighted. Only the EDGE has
Apex shafts. To me, they feel better. Pings are great quality, although
I hate the shaft "Feel" and it only comes in stiff.
Ben Hogan could have made a cast club a hell of a lot easier than
developing the only forged, perimeter weighted club - but he didn't
think they were as good. Hey, Karsten's a good engineer, but - who're
you gonna listen to when it comes to how a club feels and plays,
Karsten, or "The Hawk ?"
Great players can play with a rake, but as far as the rest of us go
it's strictly personal preference. Clones are o.k., but they have as
lot less resale. Truthfully, have you looked at "Founders" irons ? Hell
of a golf club...
--Jack
|
| 1417.8 | PINGS FOREVER | MR4DEC::DIAZ | Octavio, SME International | Mon Jan 13 1992 19:26 | 27 |
| 1417.9 | | NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO | | Mon Jan 13 1992 19:35 | 28 |
| Re: Clones
I agree with the clone concept as well. Some people just want the name
and it does add value in terms of trade-in or resale. I personally
have found my Prima's to be excellent clubs. These are Ping copies and
I saw that they advertised during the Masters last year. Other top
perimeter weighted clubs like Cobra's, Ultra's and Callaway's(the
number 1 seller in Japan). Even MacGregor has a set of forged
perimeter weighted irons - Jack Nicklaus irons.
I recommend that you go into a Nevada Bob's, Golf USA type store and
ask if they any consignment clubs. These are usually nicer than the
used clubs, but less expensive than new. They are clubs left by a
previous owner for the store to sell (and take a commission). Got my
Prima Berylium Coppers for $225 this way. Many pro shops have a used
inventory because club members are trading them in every year on the
new model.
Shopping for golf clubs is getting to be a lot like shopping for cars.
Many options, many styles and wide swing in price. But the top brands
hold their value. I still have a set of Ram Tour Grinds that I got on
consignment 8 years ago for $175. Today they are worth about the same.
I use them every now and then to teach my Prima's a lesson.
Good Luck
SCD
|
| 1417.10 | RETURN ON INVESTMENT | MRKTNG::WHITTEN | David Whitten @TTB | Tue Jan 14 1992 11:43 | 14 |
| A friend of mine who is an 11 handicapper tried several sets of clubs
last year (including Pings) & ended up buying Callaways. He is
extremely happy with them & swears that they are improving his game.
I bought a set of Tommy Armour clones from Nevada Bob's last year. I
really like them, but can't explain exactly why & I have to admit that
my game is pretty much as bad as ever despite them!
I guess it all boils down to what you expect to get in return for the
investment. If dramatic game improvement could be absolutely
guaranteed with a particular set of clubs I'd spend a lot to get them,
but I'd want a money back guarantee. Until someone comes up with that
I personally am not prepared to spend more than the price of a clone
set.
|
| 1417.11 | | TOLKIN::HOGAN | | Tue Jan 14 1992 15:16 | 38 |
|
If they ever come up with a club that will absolutly, money back
guarentee improve your game I'm going to call it quits. I think we
are victims of the greatest marketing job in the history of sporting
goods sales. This is what I think. There are two types of club heads
blade and perimiter weighted. Two types of shafts, stiff and regular.
Two types of balls, two peice solid, three peice balata. Everything
between has nothing to do with how well you play.
Now there are a billion different swings. That's what makes a
difference in how well you play.
So find a set of sticks that make you happy. Pings, Clones it really
doesn't matter. What really matters is you get the correct flex in the
shaft. A R shaft will typically have a mid flex point and be lighter
than a stiff shaft. The walls of the shaft will be thinner in a R shaft
making it lighter. A stiff shaft will have a high bend point towards
the hands. Bend point towards the hands is supposed to give you more
control. But if you put a high bend point in the hands of a weaker
player they will have less control
There are 5 shaft classifications 1. stiffness (flexability)
2. type ( weight)
3. pattern( bend piont)
4. mounting ( installation)
5. frequency
There are 5 different types of shafts 1. x = extra stiff
2. s = stiff
3. r = regular
4. a = amateur or flexable
5. l = ladies
Most players don't fit into a x shaft there just to stiff. The A flex
and L flex are just to light and you will out grow them very quickly.
So you have the R and S. You can trim the tips of these two shafts to
get the desired result. Much to be said no time.
|
| 1417.12 | PW AND 2pc balls | MR4DEC::DIAZ | Octavio, SME International | Tue Jan 14 1992 15:37 | 29 |
| And continuing the previous note on club technology, I just watched
this weekend the Nov/Dec tape of the video magazine "Wide World of
Golf" with an interview of the technical head of the R&A Saint
Andrews Club (I'm not sure of the correct full name, but it's
Europe's cousin of the USGA) and when asked about all this new high
tech equipment, he simply said something like this (paraphrasing):
Most of it is just marketing noise. There are only two technologies
that really have make a significant impact in making it easier for
the average golfer to play better:
PERIMETER WEIGHTED/CAVITY BACK CLUB HEADS
Then they showed how a blade and an a PW/CB clubs compare when
hitting them of center.
TWO PIECE BALLS
They go saying that for woods and long irons the difference in
distance with both balls is minimal, but the difference is in spin
rate, with the wound ball having a higher one thus accentuating
slices and hooks, and longer distance with medium and short irons
with the two piece ball.
So their conclusions are: for the average golfer to play a LITTLE
better use PW clubs and two piece balls.
FWIW
Tavo
|
| 1417.14 | Pings and Prices | SPEEED::HARGUS | | Tue Jan 14 1992 20:55 | 25 |
| Hi...i bought a set of Ping irons this past summer. I played and hit
balls with all major brands, narrowed it down to three - Pings,
845s and Edges - hit a thousand balls with each of those three and
finally selected Pings. All three are fabulous clubs and you can't
go wrong any of them. I won't recommend one over the others except
to say that my selection criteria was performance; not resale value,
quality, price or anything else. If you are in the market for $400+
clubs you will get those additional advantages with all three.
If you decide on Pings, you won't find many great deals out there.
Karsten keeps the wholesale prices high and the margin for even
the biggest dealers is very small. The mailorder houses have no
better prices than local proshops if you are selective about your
pro shop. The absolute best deal i found was at the Dennis Pines
Pro shop in Dennis, Mass (Cape Cod)- $459 3-PW. The next best deal was
at the Wayland CC, Wayland Ma - $480. The best mailorder deal was
$489 and up. 845s and Edges are $60 or so less but i didn't do much
price research on them.
Take your time and have fun; the research is the best part!
/stan
|
| 1417.15 | | TOLKIN::HOGAN | | Wed Jan 15 1992 11:55 | 9 |
|
Dave,
You state in your note that you felt that the ping-eye2 irons
were a step above the clones in many respects. I would be interested
to know what differences you noticed. I ask because I am in the process
of building a set of Taylor Made ICW-11 copies for myself.
Pete
|
| 1417.16 | Try several and decide. | CHRLIE::HUSTON | | Wed Jan 15 1992 15:19 | 16 |
|
Just to add another opinion here. I bought new clubs a couple of
seasons ago, being a mid handicapper (around 10-12) I tried several
different name brands, from Pings to 845 and edge's. I then decided
that for the price I did not play enough golf to justify the expense.
I then went to lower price clubs and settled on the Ram Accubar.
These are by far the easiest clubs to hit that I tried, to me they
felt better than any of the Ping, 845 or edge clubs that I tried, the
price was around $200 for the irons.
To me they are at least as good, but as others have said, it is what
feels right to you.
--Bob
|
| 1417.17 | You can't go wrong | WALTA::LENEHAN | | Wed Jan 15 1992 15:27 | 33 |
|
Hi L,
Pings vs Hogan EDGE? Which to buy?
Both are good choices. Both are high quality. You can play any
level of golf with either club.
Some technical differences are;
The PINGS , with the larger flange, are easier to hit
straight. The larger flange will help square the clubface
upon impact with the ground. The larger offset will help
get the ball airborn easier also. They are a cast club,
so they will have less feedback on mishit shots.
The EDGE's have a more traditional flange and allow you to work
the ball easier. The EDGE's are more difficult to hit straight,
and more difficult to hit cleanly. They are a forged iron and
therefore a softer metal, because of this they will provide
more feel.. and give you more feedback.
Having played both types of irons, I think if you play a lot
of golf , and strike the ball well (consistently)... either iron
will make you happy.
If you aren't playing a lot I wouldn't buy the EDGEs. The PINGS
larger flange will allow you more room for error.
Walta
|
| 1417.18 | Blades for me anytime!! | ESSB::PSCULLY | | Fri Jan 17 1992 10:10 | 29 |
| RE: .17
The one question I have is this.
Which of these clubs really improve your game ?
My experience is that bladed clubs are significantly more difficult
to hit and will penalise any mis-hit shots quite severely. On the other
hand, a blade will give much more feedback, which I presume can be used
to help produce a more consistent swing/strike.
Perimeter weighted irons (on the other hand) provide little feedback,
tend to let mis-hit shots off rather lightly and don't give as much
accuracy in general.
To sum the whole thing up, I would say blades help build a better swing
(better golfer !) and should be used by anyone who has ambitions in the
longer term to improve their golf/score.
While P.W. help to keep the score down, I disagree when someone says
they have all the ingrediants to aid real IMPROVEMENT. In my opinion
P.W. clubs mask over problems instead of highlighting them. Poor golf
when not highlighted cannot be improved.
Am I right or wrong ?
Regards,
Pat.
|
| 1417.19 | they serve a purpose | NHASAD::BLAISDELL | Keep an even keel | Fri Jan 17 1992 10:17 | 12 |
|
> While P.W. help to keep the score down, I disagree when someone says
> they have all the ingrediants to aid real IMPROVEMENT. In my opinion
> P.W. clubs mask over problems instead of highlighting them. Poor golf
> when not highlighted cannot be improved.
Bingo! Although the perimeter weighted clubs are useful for those
folks who play for enjoyment, play infrequently and want to keep the
the frustration factor to a minimum.
-rick
|
| 1417.20 | PW are best for 99%....!! | TRLIAN::GORDON | | Fri Jan 17 1992 11:05 | 18 |
| re: .18/.19
well all that is true if your a machine....but humans make errors
especially swing errors...less than perfect contact with the ball
nicklaus once said that he might hit 3-5 perfectly hit shots in a
round of golf, the rest are all misses of one type or another....
today even he uses PW clubs because he realizes that those misses
cost strokes, so if your interested in scoring as well as your
game allows use PW so that your problems/misses can be minimized...
many professional golfers today realize this fact of life and have
switched to PW clubs, especially older golfers who like nicklaus
just don't have the great hand/eye coordination anymore because
father time is intervening....
swing problems should be addressed on the practice range so that
when you go out to play you can enjoy the game...
|
| 1417.21 | | TOLKIN::HOGAN | | Fri Jan 17 1992 14:19 | 22 |
|
Noters who have stated that the P.W clubs have advantages make a very
good point. Noters stating the blade also make a very good case for
the blade. So I guess it boils down to " Gentlemen choose your weapon."
Just an opinion. The clubs on the market today remind me very much of
the cameras that are on the market today. It used to be that you had to
understand photography to take a good picture but the cameras to have
taken all the talent out of it. All you need to do is piont it in the
right direction press the button. If club and ball manufacturing
continue to improve the equipment the way we have seen in the past 7 years
we only have to point ourselves in right direction and make halfway
decent contact in general vacintiy of the ground around the ball and
bingo putting for birdie.
We are not there yet. If I see a player go out in 72 I certainly don't
say, " Ya but he had a P.W. club with sqare grooves," because I believe
he would have shot 72 with a blade. But when I see a player come in
with a 105 I do think he might have shot 125 with a blade. So what's
the point..........Hell, I don't know.
Pete
|
| 1417.22 | Quest for perfection | WALTA::LENEHAN | | Fri Jan 17 1992 14:42 | 44 |
|
Reply last couple;
All things considered relating to PW'd irons vs blades and
the feedback benifit... I think the EDGE irons are trying
to provide the best of both worlds. Being they are PW'd
and forged.
I can attest to the feedback benifits. Last season I played
a lot... my handicap dropped from a 4.0 to a 2.4 USGA . When
I was at my best, which lasted approximately two weeks.. I
hit alot of shots flush, and couldn't feel anything through
the stroke ( those of you who have hit a forged iron know
the feeling) .
Throughout the rest of the season my swing wasn't as pure...
and it was VERY frustrating to "feel" those shots. The
bad contacts would radiate up the shaft and feel poor, even
though the results may turn out decent... I was still left
feeling I missed the shot, and would then try to fix the
problem.
Prior to the EDGE's I played investment cast PW'd irons and
there's definitely a "feel" advantage with the forged irons.
So the bottom line is;
If you want to feel like you are striking the ball pure, and
wonder why your yardages may vary, go with the cast irons...
You'll feel better about your game, and spend less money
at the driving range! :)
If your aim is to torture yourself trying to perfect your
golf swing, so as to repeat that ever allusive SWEET
feeling that incredible rush of a pure hit, ...
while along the way, twanging your way from shot to shot?
Go with forged PW'd :) And join a driving range that allows
unlimited access for a set fee. Then pay that fee. Go there
at lunch... everyday. I'll be the bald guy to your right,
the one overswinging :)
Walta
|
| 1417.23 | | NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO | | Fri Jan 17 1992 15:20 | 20 |
| Walta...
Great summary. I recently played a round with two balls and two sets
of clubs. Long story, but I ended up with my Ram Tour Blades and my
Ping copies in the bag on a trip. Playing alone, with a cart, mid week
in Florida.....I decided to see what would happen. Well, end result
was a 76 with the PW Ping clones, 87 with the tour blades. Distant was
the biggest factor. In order to get the same distance with the Blades
I had to swing harder (or felt like I did) sacrificing direction. The
only club that felt better in the blade set was the pitching
iron...better feel/balance maybe.
Just had a friend (about a 12-14 hdcp) play a round with a used to be
touring, now teaching pro. The pro told my friend to stow the blades
and by a set of PW's(he recommended Cobras). The pro told my friend
that he was not and would probably never be good enough to hit the
blades. Not a slam but a realistic perspective based on swing, time to
practice, desired return on the investment.
SCD
|
| 1417.24 | PW not a cure all | CHRLIE::HUSTON | | Fri Jan 17 1992 15:49 | 14 |
|
Feedback and all is great, but I would be the majority of golfers
wouldn't know what to do with it, or even that they got any.
You need to play a good amount and understand your swing if you
want feedback to help.
One other thing I would like to mention, I have talked with people
who thought PW clubs were a cure all to there slice/hook. If you
take a terrible swing with a PW club, you are gonna get terrible
results. PW clubs help minimize the effects of slight defects in
the swing, they won't solve major problems.
--Bob
|
| 1417.25 | no not a cure for bad fundamentals... | TRLIAN::GORDON | | Fri Jan 17 1992 16:06 | 9 |
| re: .24
reading through these notes I don't think anyone implied
PW would mask bad swings....I think most of the noters
are assuming that people who respond here put a reasonable
pass on the ball. And I'm sure all of us hit a slice/hook/shank(!? that
word again) once in a while or we wouldn't be noting here...{;^)
the only secret is SOUND FUNDAMENTALS and practice,practice,practice...
|
| 1417.26 | Use Both! | CTHQ2::OCONNOR | | Fri Jan 17 1992 17:41 | 2 |
| How about practicing with the blades and playing with the PWs?
Rich
|
| 1417.27 | | NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO | | Fri Jan 17 1992 18:19 | 24 |
| re: 24
Just Mark Calchivecchia(sp). He showed us all how to shanka #4 Ping
Iron.
The one time I took serious lessons, and maybe this was unusual, I
learned more about feedback etc. than I did about the swing. My pro
explained to me the swing paths and the resulting hits...inside out;
inside square; inside closed and the same for outside in; outside
square and outside closed. Armed with this info, I asked about new
clubs (I was a 24 hdcp at the time)and he said....Buy a blade for a year
or two, make it a good blade that you can resell. You really need a PW
club, but it will not give you the feedback to help you understand your
swings/hits. He was recommending a set of Hogan PC's. I loved them,
but found a set of Ram's. Net net, I still use this lesson series
today, and can play doctor on myself. The PW's I now use only tell me
when I am real bad, but the feedback and what to do with it is a key to
improving and enjoying the game. I have days where I am stiking the
ball well and just don't score. Those are the days the feedback is
real helpful. Other days when nothing feels right, I can fiddle and
see if there is something to do to salvage a few holes.
SCD
teach you much
|
| 1417.28 | Bad swing is a bad swing | CHRLIE::HUSTON | | Mon Jan 20 1992 17:05 | 16 |
|
I was not trying to say the people in here are like that (PW cures
all). Just mentioning that it is not and people should keep it
in mind. I have talked with people who believed that PW clubs
were a cure to a bad swing.
Also keep in mind that not everyone in here is ready for the tour
or even practices regularly, there are all different levels in
here from beginner to scratch golfers. I was just trying to make
sure that no one has the wrong impression about PW. If no one does
then its a few bytes wasted on a disk. If someone is looking for
a PW club to fix there slice hopefully it will catch there
attention.
--Bob
|
| 1417.29 | zz v kt | ESSB::PSCULLY | | Wed Jan 22 1992 11:14 | 7 |
|
Can anybody explain to me the differences between the PING ZZ-lite
and PING KT shafts ?
Thanks,
Pat.
|
| 1417.30 | RE: ZZ vs KT | SPEEED::HARGUS | | Wed Jan 22 1992 17:55 | 23 |
| re: .29
Pat,
ZZ lites are older and are considered lower in performance than the
KTs although both are quite easy to play. KTs are standard in newer Ping
Eye 2 + sets and were developed for the so called advanced play
of today's potential Ping customer. Both are rated "stiff" but the KTs
are slightly stiffer and have a higher kick point, more conducive for
low/boring and knockdown type shots. Both are custom shafts made
exclusively for Karsten by True Temper. In comparison, a True Temper
Dynamic Gold S shaft is stiffer than the KT and has a higher kick
point but is more expensive. The KTs are a good quality shaft that
most players will find acceptable for most shots but if money is
not an issue there are better shafts that are a good replacement
for either the ZZs or KTs.
Rgds,
/stan
|
| 1417.31 | RE. .30 | ESSB::PSCULLY | | Thu Jan 23 1992 11:30 | 8 |
| RE: .30
Hi Stan,
Thanks for a very comprehensive explanation.
Best regards,
Pat.
|
| 1417.32 | TAYLOR MADE WHAT ?? | WELCLU::MEIKLE | | Mon Mar 09 1992 06:34 | 27 |
|
RE .4
Pete,
PINGS the most overpriced club on the market ??
Sounds like you have a vendetta against Cavity back clubs in general.
As regard PING Clones, well, you get what you pay for and you'll be
looking to replace them a darn sight quicker than you would if you'd
bought PING.
(Why buy two cheepies when you can buy one set of PING !)
"Not a cavity back kind of guy ?" ...why buy Hogan Edge in the first
place then ?
If they did'nt work for you then that does'nt mean that they won't work
for anyone else.
As to advice...well, TAYLOR MADE what?? ICW11's .....surely a joke....
....talking about "most overpriced clubs".........?
The Ambassador.
|
| 1417.33 | Major brands have a high distribution cost... | DATABS::PAL | Paul Lemaire | Mon Mar 09 1992 15:41 | 14 |
| re: .32
>> Sounds like you have a vendetta against Cavity back clubs in general.
>> As regard PING Clones, well, you get what you pay for and you'll be
>> looking to replace them a darn sight quicker than you would if you'd
>> bought PING.
What you pay for is massive hype! Granted, there are cheap clones on
the market. The better clones are every bit as good as the originals
[and the grooves are legal :^) ]. You also get a better choice of
shafts in the clone market. Although Karsten offers several shaft
patterns, they are all stiff flex.
PL
|