Conference 7.286::golf

    Re:                        <<< Note 1382.0 by HAAG::HAAG >>>

I second  your  feelings.    At  this  time of the year in the northeast,
people who are  not diehard golfers have already put their clubs away and
it's the course's traffic is much lighter.

A couple of weeks  back,  on  a day that had been raining all morning and
early afternoon, a friend and  I  got  out  of  work early and got to the
links just as it started to  clear.  Nobody was there and in less than an
hour the sun came out and turned into a beautiful fall evening.  You feel
the you owne the course!

Tavo
(Who as usual won't put the clubs away until there is snow in the ground)

It's fun playing on a course all by yourself!  Your story reminded me of the 
course I learned to play on in RI.  It was a little 9 hole course with an 
Honor Box to let you pay your greens fees when the owners weren't there.  Right 
below was a stack of score cards & pencils.

Larry

    	A couple of weeks ago I went out to Sterling, Mass. to the 
    Sterling Country Club that just opened this year.  It was about
    8:45 and nobody was on the course at all.  It turns out they were
    having a shotgun at noon.  I managed to beg my way onto the course
    by promising to walk off the course as soon as the tournament started.
    I played 16 holes and finally caught up to a foursome that had teed
    off about an hour before me.  It truly was like having my own private
    course.  Rounds like these are very unique and hard to come by.
    
    					JT

    I agree. I too was blessed with the experiences to have the course to
    myself.  During 1978 - 1984, I got to know the starter at the Dunes
    Country Club in Vegas very well. Well enough that whenever I showed up
    (which was every weekend) in the morning, he would get me a cart and
    I'll be off the 10th tee and have back nine all to myself. By the time
    I come around to 1st tee, he would've found a slot for me to play front
    nine.  The great thing was it was FREE!!!!  Of course I'd tip the guy
    but the green fee & cart back then was $40 so I still made out like a
    bandit.
    
    I REALLY miss the good'ole days.

    
    Acouple of weeks ago I had decided to take a Thursday off and play
    golf. Well naturally the weather was ugly. It was pouring all night
    but started to slow a-bit in the morning. I was totally prepared to
    play no matter what the weather did. My bag was stuffed with dry
    towels, rain suit on, umbrella ready and off I went. Well needless to 
    say I am the only car in the lot. I played the most relaxing round of
    golf I have ever played in my life. I walked around putts like I was
    putting for my life. When the rain picked up I would just find a
    comfortable spot under a tree and just watch it rain. It was so quite
    out there. It reminded me of fishing in that secret spot all by
    yourself. It was special.
    
    Pete

    Today...
    
    Went to Trull Brook today... first time I've ever had the course to
    myself. Nobody in front, nobody behind, the whole way... The sun even
    came out... Two of us started about quarter to four, finished 18 by
    6:30 (ok, the 18th was a little dark, but both of us bogied the 
    hole)... we took our time, the sun hung in there juuuuust long enough...
    
    		"it don't get no better than this"
    
    
                                                           
    
    
    

    
    Last October...
    
    I took a week off to go back upto Scotland to visit my parents. I took
    my clubs along with the full intention of getting a few rounds in on
    "home soil" whilst I was there. Unfortunately it poured with rain the
    whole week. By the time Wednesday came around I was getting deperate. I
    vowed that no matter what the weather was doing I was going out for a
    game on Thursday. Well Thursday turned out to be the wettest day of the
    week but I went out regardless. 
    
    I drove round a few of the local clubs but found them all to be closed
    due to waterlogging. I ended up at Gleddoch where I'd been a member for
    6 years as a kid. I paid my fees and took to the course. I didn't see a
    single other person on the course during the whole round. It was
    wonderful to be able to tee off when you reached a tee, to be able to
    hit approach shots when you reached your drive and to be able to putt
    out without worrying about upsetting other peoples concentration on
    adjecent tees and greens.
    
    I finished the round in about two and a half hours soaked to the skin
    but with the widest grin I'd had in years. I managed to cover the
    course in my best ever score of 76. (When I was a member there my
    previous low score was 84) I guess I'd got into a groove and was able
    to keep it there bacause of the lack of interuptions.
    
    POL.

I was all alone playing Turnberry! I get one weekend every 36 years in Scotland
and after a few wrong turns ended up at Ailsa very late in the day. The
clubhouse said I wouldn't finnish, but with no groups in front of me I thought
I'd have a chance.

Wow was it great! I could see the ocasional group traversing the back 9 but as
far as I was concerned the course was mine! It was spectacular - long shadows
from the dunes, the greyness of the Clyde ... I dropped balls in fairways,
tested the pot bunkers, and left about a dozen Titleists scattered about the
long grass. I think in my "match" that Tom Watson won ...

Playing evenings here in Marlboro is always a favorite, but I'll always
remember that speecial round at Turnberry.

Eric

    I can understand how you feel about Turnberry. A pall and I played it a
    few years back, and we were all alone (And jet-lagged) as well. We were
    better players at the time - I was a 6, and my friend a 2 (Good 2 - he
    had just returned from several years coaching prep school golf on the
    coast. His home course was Pebble Beach). We thought we knew what a
    great course was - until we saw Turnberry ! I haven't played Dornoch
    yet, but to me, the Ailsa course at Turnberry is the best in Scotland
    (And there are NO bad ones there...).
    
     Notes like this to me is what golf is all about !
    
    --Jack
    

    
    Jack,
    if "what it's all" about refers to being in golf "dream land"
    I agree.
    It happened twice to me.
    About 3 years ago , I go out to Stow North about 4:30 PM.
    I'm told "you can't play today, North is being used for DEC seniors
    qualifying ..it's clos.............What a minute the buses back
    to Nashawtuc just pulled out ...you can go...."
    
    ALL ALONE on Stow North until about 7:30 !!!! It was the most
    exhilirating, "dream land" feeling I ever had!! And I mean NO ONE 
    else front or back nine!   as my teen age son would saw AWESOME!!
    
    Number two was on NORTH also (where else!). Big rain delay on
    12 North , a" bloody deluge"(UK talk) , of rain , wind,thunder and 
    lightening.
    
    It stops after half an hour.(was a summer boomer)
    
    We tee off on 13 , and over the fairway is the biggest, most
    beautiful rainbow  you ever saw. And it looked liked we had to walk,
    under and through to get to the green !! We thought we were in the
    land of "OZ"!
               God can't hit a one iron , but he sure knows how to
    create beauty !
                    Ang
    
               
                          
    
    

    First one off the tee this AM. at San Jose Muni. As I was teeing it up,
    two guys were approaching the tee, and I offered to let them go off with
    me. They declined, but when I put my drive out long and straight they
    instantly changed their minds and headed out with me! After playing the
    second shot, a single came up from behind and joined us, then the four of
    us blew down 9 holes in about 1:35 min. We left all the other groups in
    the dust and, as we were first off, were able to walk right up to every
    tee and hit. Great company and a great way to start the morning; I'd
    forgotten just how nice it can be to play this game!
    
    Fred                              
    

    playing grand view in leominster one day last summer.
    played the front nine, waiting for people in front of us.
    just as we teed off on the 10th it started raining.
    pulled out the old umbrellas and kept playing.  everyone
    else bailed out and headed in.  we played two holes in
    the rain and then it stopped.  there was a beatiful rainbow!
    
    we played the last  holes in record time.  the sun was
    shining.  the rain made everything look bright.  it was great.
    i wouldn't recommend playing in the rain to assure you have the
    course to yourself, but on this day it was worth it.
    
    black nicklaus
    
    

     Went down to Plymouth C.C. (Site of the "Hornblower" Amateur
    Tournament) yesterday with a pal. Plymouth is a terrific Donald Ross
    course that the public can arrange to play early and late in the
    season. We were the only two people who played ALL DAY, and what a
    treat ! Of course, the wind blew like hall, and we got drowned...
     My pal shot about 110, and I had 81 with a couple of birds -
    unexpected - and we played in around 2:45 - 2:55. We even hit a few
    practice shots. It was worth the bad weather.
    
     Holes 9-12 and 16-18 are as good as you'll see anywhere, and boy, did
    they play LONG. # 12 might be one of the very best par 4's I've ever
    seen - 442 yards of bad news that is absolutely gorgeous ! Managed a
    bird on the 423 yard 11th with a semi-pop up drive, hard 3 iron and
    about a 10' putt. This course is a "Must see !" We carried our clubs
    (First time for me this year), and it was great. I forgot how much I
    like to walk. I think I play better, too. Normally it doesn't matter
    to me how I play, as long as I'm hitting it o.k., but this was a
    pleasant surprise.
    
     Looks like I've got 3 more rounds left this year (Maybe 4, if my
    friend down in NYC can come through with Quaker Ridge or the "Other"
    Winged Foot course - both of 'em too tough for me). I'll try "The Fox"
    once this weekend, then off to L.A. for my fiance's brother's wedding.
    Right now, it looks fairly certain that I'll get to see L.A. C.C. -
    North, but Riviera is still a bit uncertain, although quite possible.
    If everything comes into place, this will be my best year for great
    courses ever, but if not, I've still had fun and made some new friends.
    As far as I'm concerned, just let me play good courses with good guys,
    and if I play 3 times a year, it's o.k. with me.
    
    --Jack 

    Riviera? wow!
    
    But Jack, are you *sure* it's okay if you only play 3 times a year? B^)
    
    Thanks for the tip on Plymouth. Nice round on what is I am sure a good
    test.
                                                                        
    -S.
    
    
    
    

     I would say that Winchester and Plymouth are the best Ross courses
    I've seen in a long time. It's getting so hard to get on the good ones
    that I didn't want to pass this up. Fortunately, there are a few public
    Ross courses around New England that we can all play. I'm not sure I
    like his courses better than Tillinghast - hell, even MacDonald had a
    few good ones. However, his (Ross) great courses, like Scioto and (I've
    heard) Seminole and Pinehurst #2, Oak Hill and Oakland Hills are pretty
    awesome.
    
     I probably won't know about Riviera until Mon. pm. The guys from RT
    Jones are trying to work something out with some West coast contact
    they have. In truth, if I had to pick one, I'd say L.A. North - tougher
    to get on, used to be a "Top 10" (If there is such a thing) course, and
    a premier layout. I understand the USGA tried to get the US Open there,
    and their response was "Does that mean non members will be playing ?" I
    guess they don't want any publicity. I've heard that they do not accept
    any members from the entertainment industry, although they have 36
    holes, and 1600 members. Another story I heard is that the initiation
    "Downstroke" is (Was) $100k. Throwaway. The old cowboy actor Randolph
    Scott was permitted to join after he proved he made his serious cash
    from real estate. Supposedly Shirley MacLaine lives on one of the
    fairways... Sorry, Shirley. I figure it's only fair that one guy of
    normal means plays this place once in a while, but I'll sure feel
    better at "The Fox..."
    
    --Jack

    Yesterday- Just me, the squirrels and the ghost of Donald Ross.
    Nirvana.
    
    Chris

     Just got back from "Shakey Town," and I played L.A. North. Teed it up
    with a caddy at 0830, and played alone - back 9 first. 82 blows and
    2hrs.-20 min. later I was in the bar. I even had time to hit some extra
    shots. This place is STRONG !! There is NO roll, and the par 4's (Some
    of which I played from the "Tips") are generally real long, as are
    several par 3's. I don't know if this place is better than Olympic, but
    it has to be one of the best I have ever seen. I saw Bel-Air and had a
    chance to play it, but I passed. Traffic to L.A. from Murietta was too
    tough (65 miles - 3 1/2 hours), so I'll plasy it next time. Missed out
    on Riviera, because the members my "Contact" knew were out of town.
    Maybe next time as well. Also played Rancho California near Murietta,
    which I enjoyed. I even bought a "Big Bertha" driver there because the
    price was unbelievable. Next time I'm in the area, I'd like to play
    Bear Creek. I'm not big on Nicklaus courses, but I've heard it's worth
    seeing. My fiancee's parents know some members, so it should be
    possible.
    
     From my limited experience, California courses are terrific (If you
    don't mind jumping out of your shoes on your tee shots), and the
    weather is THE BEST !
    
    --Jack

    Jack,
    
    Next time you are in Murrietta, give me a call.  I love the courses
    over there. You must play Redhawk in Temecula and Temecula Creek.  Also
    down the road a bout 30 minutes in Rancho Bernardo is a course called
    Carmel Mountain Ranch - they played the U.S OPEN qualifying there four
    years ago and only one person broke par.
    
    SoCalDandy (DTN 535-4021)

     SCD, I almost played Temecula Creek, but of the 3 nines there,
    supposedly the Stonehouse and the Oaks were the best - and I couldn't
    get on them until too late. I just hit balls at the range (Tryin' to
    get "Big Bertha" off the ground). Nice place, though - real green.
    What's RedHawk like ? I'd like to see Bear Creek and Indian Wells, but
    Carmel Mountain Ranch may be better...
    
     Too bad I hated the LA traffic so much. I had a 5 day pass to LA North
    (I only figured it would be good for Nov. 7 until I read it), and
    Bel-Air was all set. No way, after one morning in that traffic !! Next
    time I'll fly into LA, play one of those courses the next am, and go
    down to Murrieta the next day. BTW, there's a cowboy bar in Winchester
    called The Winchester Inn that is unreal. Great food, real cheap and a
    GREAT jukebox. My father-in-law to be keeps his plane at Hemet-Ryan
    airport nearby.
    
    --Jack

    SCD, tell me about Sherwood Forest. I got a flyer from a buddy of mine
    who spends time in SC and it looked like the cats meow. From the
    pictures it looked like heaven with a slope rating. I understand Jack
    traded his fee for some property on the 15th hole. Homes start at $1M
    etc. All the celebs play there.
    
    The article I saw was a reprint from an article in Western Links. 
    
    Ken

    SCD, Your insistance to lure unsuspecting golfers to Carmel Mountain is
    deplorable.  That course should be renamed the most unfair, dastardly
    piece of Hell that it is.  Even someone of your dubious credentials on
    the links has been brought down in homage to the great Pete Dye at
    Carmel Mountain.  So continue recommending this hell-hole and I may be
    forced to enlighten the rest of these distinguished noters as to your
    true colors.
    
    ECA
    

     Where is Carmel Mountain in relation to Murietta ?
    
    --Jack

    Jack,
    
    Carmel Mountain is southeast of Marrieta by about 60 miles if I
    remember correctly.  I am not kidding when I tell you it is one of the
    most devastating courses to play.  It is'nt because it is tough, but
    because it is unfair.  The fairways are tight with no landing areas,
    fairway and greenside bunkers and traps with huge boulders, elavated
    sloping greens where sometimes a three put is a good effort ect.  Now
    personally I don't mind a challenging course with personality, however
    Dye has a sadistic tendency that takes away the fun of golf when he
    designs a course like this.  In regard to Shattuck I agree that it is
    tough.  However, bail-out areas are available, the scenery is the best
    in New England, and although I lost the required number of golf balls I
    also felt that it was a fair course with many options.
    
    ECA
    

     Thanks for the info. I can only remember playing one Pete Dye course
    - The Golf Club - in New Albany, Ohio. I didn't care for his design,
    except for a few holes on the back side he called his "Scottish" holes.
    They were great.
    
     IMO, Shattuck misses the mark because you can't really see the
    bail-out areas clearly enough, even when you knowe where they are. It's
    just hard. Period. I love the scenery, however, and for some goofy
    reason I look forward to playing it again. I think the thing I like
    least is the overwhelming abundance of hazards. The only good thing
    about them is that they left the natural wetlands alone. Think there
    are any bass in some of those marshes ?
    
    --Jack 
    
     

    Jack,
    
    Redhawk and Carmel Mountain are designed by the same folks.  Very
    demanding for accuracy, not real long, but different and very pretty.
    With your connections you play almost anywhere.  There is a new course
    on the coast called Pelican Hill and a new one that is very good and
    very private called Dove Canyon.  Anyone that can get on LA North can
    figure a way onto Dove.  Another nice layout with 27 holes is Moreno
    Valley, in between Hemet and Temecula.
    
    SoCalDandy

    ECA 
    
    I was wondering what it would take to get you involved in this notes
    file.  Just the mention of Carmel Mountain and you start twitching. 
    Truly, the course is not unfair, because the danger is evident.  The
    fact that you may not be able to avoid it is another question.  The
    greens and pen placements are all tough I will admit, but I think you
    just had a spectacularly bad day on a course that would not forgive
    you.
    
    Carmel Mountain is about 20 miles south of Murrietta in Rancho
    Bernardo.  I do not believe it is a Pete Dye course but it is just as
    tough.  One hole, a par 4 #1 handicap is from an elevated tee, 450 yds
    long.  You have to smoke your tee shot straight or you can't carry the
    second shot over the water to a small green.  Great fun.
    
    Now folks, you must consider that when I met ECA four years ago he
    could hammer me and now I give him sevral strokes to keep him
    interested.  So he is a little touchy...next time we get togethr ECA we
    must do Shattuck so you can get even.  Or we could hike to Rainbow
    falls.
    
    More lAter.
    
    SCD

     Actually, if you guys are out here, and want to see someplace other
    than Shattuck, come on over to Crumpin-Fox. From all the way back,
    it'll scare you. Better landing areas than Shattuck, but if you miss a
    green, you're cooked.
    
     My fiancee's dad will be interested in the course near Hemet - he's
    over there all the time, anyway (According to his wife). This guy plays
    ('Til now...) once or twice a year, but after hitting my Yonex, he went
    out and bought one at Rancho California. Btw, "Rancho" has to have the
    BEST prices on clubs of any pro shop I've seen. If you haggle, you can
    get some GREAT deals. For example, a good price for a Yonex ADX 200 is
    $260-270. Rancho will sell 'em for $210. Plus, if they have a "Demo,"
    they'll sell it cheaper. My father-in-law-to-be paid $155 for a Yonex
    "Demo."
    
     My connections for new courses aren't as good as for older places,
    which is too bad, because there are a lot of good new ones around. To
    me, the toughest of the newer ones to get on are probably:
    
    1. Shadow Creek - In "Lost Wages," NV.
    2. The Vintage Club - Palm Springs, I think.
    
     I don't have a clue about the former, but maybe someday the pro at
    Indian Wells can help me with the latter. I don't know how good these
    courses are, they're just very rich and very private. ,On a different
    note, my pal "The Judge," with whom I take a golf trip every year, may
    be on to something unbelievable (Rememember, the operative word is
    "May"). He told me yesterday that he ran into an old friend who gets
    invited to Augusta National every year - AND THE GUY HAS NEVER GONE !
    Needless to say, The Judge is working on him, and I imagine that unless
    this guy commits murder in southern Ohio (Where The Judge presides),
    he'll beat the rap. I've always wanted to play Augusta, Seminole and
    Cypress Point, and oddly enough, all of a sudden The Judge has come up
    with connections at all 3. Whether we'll ever see 'em is a different
    matter, but - we'll be trying.
    
     I realize this doesn't fit in this particular note, but - since I
    started this, I might as well boogie on. We decided to target next
    year's trip on the East coast, rather than the MidWest. He likes the
    East, and there are some places here he hasn't seen. Some I haven't
    seen, and the others are worth seeing again. Here's the list, with any
    comments I have.
    
    Fisher's Island - We missed it this year due to scheduling conflicts.
    This is definitely on my top 5 all-time list. Maybe Seth Rasynor's best
    layout. People who have played both like it better than Pebble Beach.
    Fisher's will be tough to get on, but we have time, and we are
    resourceful...
    
    Shinnecock Hills - Absolutely BRUTAL in the wind (Pretty brutal
    anyway). Very historic, and unlike almost anything I've ever seen in
    the U.S. Tough !! This will probably be the toughest for us to get on,
    given who we don't know...
    
    Maidstone - Terrific Willie Park course built around a tidal estuary.
    Very much a links type course. Lots of fun to play. The pro has lunch
    with Chevy Chase and Diana Ross. Bet on us NOT doing that ...
    
    Meadowbrook - Few know about this Dick Wilson redesign, but it's
    supposed to be great. Turf is said to be unbelievable.
    
    Garden City (Time permitting) - I know, I know, no women, but hey,
    someone has to represent our disenfranchised sisters! I love Garden
    City - one of the best layouts I've ever seen.
    
    Quaker Ridge - I finally met one of the R.T. Jones boys who has a good
    contact there. I've always wanted to see it and, up to now, the
    members have always wanted me NOT to see it. Their worst nightmare is
    coming.
    
    Winged Foot (West) - After zillions of years, all of a sudden a couple
    of contacts fell into my lap. IMO, Winged Foot might be the fairest
    tough course I have ever seen. Probably tougher for low hcp guys,
    because bogeys are very easy to make (But you won't make "Snowmen" or
    lose balls...). This place still gives me goosebumps, and I've heard
    the East course is almost as good.
    
     There is an A.W. Tillinghast "Sleeper" in the NYC area called Fenway.
    I've been to the pro shop, but never played it. It looks "Marvelous!"
    Starting right now, the wheels are in motion !
    
    --Jack

    Jack
    
    Probably doesn't compare to the courses you have access to, but the
    next time you are at Indian Wells and feel like "slummin" with the
    semi-private crowd, a course I recommend is one called Desert Falls. 
    It is in Dessert Springs just a few blocks from the Marriott and is a
    very nice course, and from the tips is a challenge.  
    
    SCD

    Thanks for the tip, SCD. My only "Rule-of-thumb" about golf is that I
    want to play good courses with good guys. Just playing, even if I
    happen (??) to play well, doesn't excite me too much anymore. These
    wishes, coupled with a modest budget, dictate that I pretty much play
    my "Home" course - Crumpin-Fox - unless I can set up something really
    special, or if I'm traveling to an area which has a good course or
    courses and time (And contacts) make playing golf possible. For
    example, it probably took me 2 1/2 months to get on L.A. North. I
    started workin' on it as soon as I knew I was headin' West. But without
    the hard work of an old pal who is a lawyer in NYC, plus a friend of
    his on the coast (Whom I've never met), it just flat would not have
    happened. At any rate, I now have a memory of my 50th birthday that
    I'll never forget, and I'm framing the guest card and scorecard to
    insure it...
    
     One other thought - is Indian Wells a nice layout also ? I've only
    seen it briefly on the "Tube."
    
    --Jack

    Jack
    
    Never been to Indian Wells, but have some friends who speak highly of
    it.  It is hard to find a bad golf course in the Palm Springs area. 
    Even the public courses like Mesquite are good courses and a new one
    -Desert Palms- I believe has been rated among the top 25 "New courses"
    in the U.S.  The only gotcha is the wind, which can be a real game
    wrecker, but it does tend to take your attention away from the
    difficulty of the course.
    
    SCD

    Re: .27
    
    Jack, the chance of getting on the Shadow Creek is next to none. 
    Talked to several contacts of mine back home in Vegas and this is what
    they told me:
    
    * The course is more than a private, it's Steve Wynne's (owner of Golden
    Nugget and Mirage) personal course. Approx. cost to build $37 mil. 
    (rumors has it he sodded the entire course and bought out every palm
    trees available in the west.)
    
    * He didn't build it for businness. You see he's going blind and he's
    doing everything he wants to do before he loses his sight.  His Mirage was
    built in a record time because he wanted to make sure he saw it before 
    his sight went.
    
    * Average number of players on the course is said to be 8 per day. 
    They are mostly big wig or high rollers at his hotels.
    
    * There are only about 30 people who can get you on that course.
    
    You'll have better chance at the newly opened TPC course in Vegas. It
    opened about a month ago and my friend (he's a member) says it's in 
    perfect condition.
    
    Looks like Shadow creek will be the one course in Vegas I'm not going 
    to have access to. If you ever get on, let me know how you did it. 
    
    
    Regards,
    Hideshi
                          

     I guess the Annenberg Estate course is the only course that would be
    tougher to get on...
    
     I knew Steve Wynn built/owns it, and that it's kind of an aberration -
    a real good course that NOBODY plays. I doubt that I'll ever be in the
    area, or that I could ever get on if I was, but - WHAT A CHALLENGE !
    Hmmmm.
    
    --Jack

    A course to yourself...
    
    Just had a "you had to be there" golf experience.  I played 36 holes in
    5 1/2 hours.  Was at Ponte Vedra and played the courses at the Ponte
    Vedra Inn.  Played two balls on the first eighteen in 2:40 and then
    went straight to the first tee and played as a twosome in just under
    3:00.  
    
    The next day I went to Sawgrass and played a leisurely 4:00 round on
    the Stadium course.  The guys I was with were pros and were dropping
    balls on each hole around the greens to work on shots.  Seemed like
    what "Golf Heaven" would look like.  Gorgeous day, unsurpassed
    facilities, pleasant partners and I shot an 85 from the Tour Tees(the
    guys I met were allowed to play the Tour tees since they were PGA
    members)(Rated 74) 
    
    I would recommend that anyone in the vicinity go there once.  Saw Jim
    Hallett and his family there, heard that McCumber, and Rocco were there
    earlier as well as Brad Faxon.  
    
    Guess I got my Christmas present a little early, but it was worth it.
    
    SCD 

     Great round, SCD, and also some good comments in another note on
    "Slope." BTW, I found out the "Down" side of playing a course by
    yourself. I only saw one other group at L.A. North - and I played
    through them (Good News). I just got the bill for greens fees - $120.00
    - which I kinda expected (Bad news). Made for a memorable birthday
    though, and at this point, I'd rather spend the dough and play a place
    like that once than play some goat ranch 4 times...
    
    --Jack

    Jack-
    
    Couldn't agree with you more.  The $80 for Sawgrass was cheap compared
    to the $60+ they wan't here in SoCal for some courses with no history,
    no ambiance and 5 hour rounds.  Alonf with the Bear in Traverse City,
    Mi. I would say I have now played two of the most beautiful courses
    around.
    
    Have a good holiday season.
    
    SCD