Conference 7.286::golf

    as I recall...having not played it for three years...he goes...
    
    
    - not exceptionally long
    
    - plenty of blind shots
    
    - very tight on some holes...(2-6/7)
    
    - over a creek on around the 7th hole and
      two/three holes play there then back over
      the creek again(par 4 going over, then par 4, then par 3 comming
    back)
    
    - pretty course at least the bay area holes...
    
    -fun to play...

    Haven't played it in 2 years, but it's a treat to play. I would agree
    with all of .1's assessments, only to add that it's usually in great
    shape. The greens have always been in perfect condition, the fairways
    plush. 
    Their signature hole is the par-5 8th that reminds you of Pebble
    Beach's finishing hole, except the ocean's on the right. You tee off
    out on a tip of land and cut off as much of the fairway as you want to 
    risk without leaving it on the beach. Exciting hole.
    Bring enough cash. Last time I checked it was $40/round and $11 for a
    cart (optional).
                         Art
     

    Waste of time, except for the few holes on the water.
    
    --Jack

    re: .3
    
    	Come on Jack...this is one of the courses used in the rotation
    for the "Seacoast Amateur" golf tourney which is run every year in
    the seacoast. The tourney is a quality tournament have players from
    area clubs only and includes players that are/have been state AM title
    holders....now if this course was that bad I'm sure it would have been
    removed from the list a long time ago....
    
    	Many don't like it because of the "short length and blind holes"
    but it doesn't always take length to find a tough golf course...

     I just didn't like all the "Goofy" holes. As far as the Seacoast
    Amateur goes, I intend no disrespect to the players, BUT -
    1. There are no great courses in N.H., and almost no good ones (Sky
    Meadow, Nashua C.C., Manchester and perhaps Shattuck Inn). The amateurs
    have to play what is available.
    2. Some of the good courses may not want the tournament. BTW, I left
    off Portsmouth, which I hear is "Good."
    
     I'm not trying to be a hard ass, but when I think about taking a day
    to play someplace "Special," it sure isn't Wentworth. There are too
    many other good courses around that you can get on - especially for
    $40.
    
    Jack (Who had to pass on a chance to play The Country Club - Brookline
    - today because of work. I'm SICK !!!)

>>    Jack (Who had to pass on a chance to play The Country Club - Brookline
>>    - today because of work. I'm SICK !!!)
    
    If you're that sick then you shouldn't be at work. 8*) 8*)

    
       For those that have read about Mr. Varley's travels in this
    conference, you have to understand his point of reference. He has
    played almost all the truly great courses in this country(world).  So
    what he considers great/good courses in New England, may be totally out 
    of whack as to what you and me might consider great/good courses.
    
    -rick 

    Jack- re N.H. courses- have you played the Balsams? I've heard good
    things about it but haven't been up there yet.
    
    Chris

    While not an expert, I do see great potential in Passaconaway.  The
    back nine "devil's triangle" can cause problems.  I also think that
    Overlook has potential.  
    
    SCD
    

    
    I'd love to see Passaconaway in about 20-30 years when the trees have
    grown. It could be a real classic.
    
    Mike

    
    I don't think Pasaconoway will ever be considered a nice course, sure
    it is usually in good shape, has decent length etc. But the fact is,
    there just isn't enough room there for 18 holes. The holes are to close
    together and it is dangerous, and always will be. When you have
    adjacent holes and the fairways are only about 30-40 feet apart, well
    it ain't never gonna be a good test of golf. I predict when the state
    AM is there in a couple years that they eat the place for lunch.
    
    --Bob
    

    Could be right, but when the wind kicks up, and some of those trees get
    tall enough, you have got problem unless you can hit it straight. 
    Besides, if the only rating for a nice course is one the States best
    amateurs can bring down, then there aren't many great courses.
    
    To me, a great course is one that shows variety, length, requies
    some(moderate accuracy) and allows for a variety of styles of golfers
    to succeed.  If long and straight is all that can win on a course, then
    it is a tough course, but not a great course.  The pros hate PGA West
    because it does not reward all types of golfers, and it will probably
    never be regarded as a great course...unique, tough, challenging,
    unfair but not great.
    
    SCD
    

    
    I agree that the trees would cause a problem, but there just aren't
    that many trees, there isn't room for them. There are trees planted
    and where they are planted will be effective. The problem is there
    just isn't enough room on most holes to even put trees.
    
    I did not mean that since the best state AM players will shoot good 
    scores on it that it is not a good course.  The reason I think the
    people will shoot good scores is that you can basically hit your 
    tee shot ANYWHERE of most tees, even from the blues, and you still
    don't incur any real penalty, no punch out of the woods, lost ball
    etc. Sure there are a couple of holes where you may go OB, but this
    usually takes a really horrible shot (1 or 2 exceptions), length
    is not a factor on the back side at all so missing the fairway 
    by 50 yards is no real penalty, so you hit a mid to short iron instead
    of a half wedge to the green. The front, which is much longer than
    the back (especially from the blues), there is really only 1 hole
    that distance is a problem if you miss the fairway.
    
    I just don't think Pasaconoway has the makings of a good course.
    THe holes lack definition (ok trees MAY help here), and there just
    is not enough room, this takes the trouble away for a stray shot, 
    instead of being in the woods/rough you simply are in another
    holes fairway.
    
    --Bob
    

     The R.T. Jones boys tell me that "Routing" a course is the toughest
    thing to do. Sounds like Passaconaway has that problem.
    
     Chris, I've heard that The Balsams is pretty good but condition was
    (In the past) somewhat uneven. Perhaps money problems.
    
     I really didn't want to offend anyone about Wentworth, but as I think
    I said, a course is either worth a day off, or it isn't - especially
    with all the good ones around. For example, if you want to see what a
    "Kind of" links course looks like, play New Seabury Blue. You generally
    have to do it in Spring or Fall, but it's a good test. I guess that at
    the time I played Wentworth I was expecting something great - Donald
    Ross, etc. Instead, I found a course he must have "Phoned in."
    
     I've been pretty lucky to play the places I have, but I don't really
    try to compare 'em to normal courses. For example, I wouldn't look at
    Sky Meadow and say, "It's not as good as Shinnecock or Congressional,
    so it's no good. I like Sky Meadow. What I do is read a lot, listen to
    the Jones boys, try to be observant when I "Play" a great course and
    apply what seems to make a course great to a "Normal" course. Some
    normal courses are surprisingly good, or at least have some redeeming
    qualities. For example, I always liked Far Corners and Crystal Springs.
    Unpretentious, but real good. I loved Whitinsville, and it's a 9 holer.
    
     Fortunately, you don't have to be a good golfer to appreciate great
    courses, and I'm sure proof of that. Most of the time when a golfer
    visits a "Shrine," he/she become overcome by the course condition, the
    facilities, etc. To me, that stuff is usually a "Given." They're all
    nice. But when you think about the course, you see what really makes it
    great - little subtleties. So, the next time you hear somebody in a bar
    say "Ah, I play Stow North from the tips, I hit it BIG, I bet I'd be
    just as good at Baltusrol or Kittansett or Muirfield Village," think
    about how much fun it would be to watch this guy actually play there.
    There sure IS a difference. You know, as I get older, and my game goes
    South, I think half the fun is actually getting on these places. It's
    like a game in itself...
    
    --Jack

    Jack, I have to disagree with you when you pan the courses in N. H.
    There are many good public and private courses - sky meadow, Eastmann
    Country Club of N.H., Shatuck Inn, Brentwood, Keene Country club etc..
    Maybe you have a different perspective but my view is that anyone who
    fails to play some of these courses has missed a real experience
    especially in the fall. 
    
    I have played many courses all over the world, no comparison to your
    experience, but believe N.H. golfing to be the greatest. So Jack take
    back your pan of N.H., OK?
    
                                                       Phil

     A lot of those courses are nice, and you're right - especially in the
    Fall. I still dislike Wentworth, though. I don't think any of 'em are
    GREAT, with tremendous character, but they ARE worth playing. Maybe I'm
    just a little "Grumped out" because after my golf trip I stopped
    playing for 2 weeks, bought a new set of Edge GS's and went to the
    range and hit grounders. On Sunday I have to take my "Grounders" to
    Crumpin-Fox, and on 7/26 they travel (Hopefully) to the Lakeside course
    of Olympic in San Francisco.. Ouch !!
    
    --Jack

    EXCUUUUSE US!!!
    
    If you are playing the Olympic then there is no comparison.  How do you
    kepp em down on the farm after they've seen Paris??  I of course would
    not attempt to compare golf courses liek Passa... with ones like you
    are playing.  But I think the only bad courses are those that charge
    big bucks and are not in great shape...other than that, every course
    has its place and purpose in the market.  I play some beat up courses,
    that don't charge a lot, and work on parts of my game.  I play great
    courses and just enjoy being there.  Have a great time in Bagdad by the
    Bay.  Maybe One-ton can meet you at Olympic and clean your clubs.
    
    
    SoCalDandy

    I too don't agree with knock on Wentworth or NH golf in general.  After
    relocating to Florida from NH about 1 1/2 years ago.  I have had the
    chance to play some of our finest courses (Grand Cypress, Lake Nona,
    Innisbrook, Doral, Greenleaf West, Amelia Island and Sawgrass.  I would
    still love to have a nice fall day on any number of NH courses without
    a single golf cart in site.  Yes all the above World Class courses
    require you to take a cart with the exception of Grand Cypress (The New
    Course) OBTW you still have to pay for the cart.

     You get what you pay for. It all depends on what you want. If you just
    want to "Whack whitey" someplace, and not spend a lot of bucks - fine
    with me. I belong to an inexpensive place myself (Crumpin-Fox), and
    there are cheaper places around that are o.k. too. I like Fall golf in
    New England also. Everybody's right here - but I will NOT play
    Wentworth again. BTW, Olympic "Lakeside" has some of the strongest par
    4's I have EVER seen...
    
    --Jack

    Jack,
    
    When I was a kid growing up in Portsmouth, the Wentworth course was
    only nine holes, and was considered pretty easy by the 'locals' who
    preferred the Portsmouth CC or the Sagamore.  The Wentworth expanded to
    18 holes, and changed the layouts from when I played as a kid.  I
    hadn't been back to that course for about 25 years, but I played it a
    couple of times this summer.  Compared to a lot of southern California
    courses, the Wentworth was HEAVEN!  Real trees, real rocks and
    boulders, hills for godsake, ocean views!  Yes, it was a bit pricey,
    but the conditions were excellent, and there was NO SLOW PLAY!
    
    By the way, have you ever played the Sagamore course in North Hampton,
    NH?  Its one of the prettiest courses I've ever seen.  Its only medium
    hard and probably won't go down in the books as a GREAT course, but its
    beautiful and challenging all the same.  After all, golf course
    greatness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder...
    
    Regards,
     Bill
    

     No, I haven't played Sagamore yet, but I sure agree about golf course
    greatness being in the eye of the beholder. What used to appeal to me
    when I was a kid (9 miles long, hit driver as hard as you can), seems
    one dimensional now. Everyone has a preference, and they're all
    correct. If someone describes a course to me that doesn't sound like
    what I like, I just skip it. In doing that, I'm sure I've missed some
    nice places.
    
     I've heard good things about Portsmouth and Cocheco, too.
    
    --Jack