Conference 7.286::golf

>    Will Europe retain it again or will the USA drag it over the pond from
>    us. What do you think ??

     Based on the performances of the European golfers, they shouldn't have
     too much trouble retaining the cup.  Like baseball, basketball,
     football (et al) players, this generation of golfers are definitely
     playing for the money as opposed to playing because they love the
     game.  Hence, if the Ryder cup had a five million dollar purse, our
     golden boys would more than likely walk away with the cup.

     Think about it...Tom Watson was the only American that was giving any
     serious challenge to Ian Woosnam...and he's past his prime.  Where
     were Curtis Strange, Calcevechia (sp), Couples???  Every year we hear
     that colleges are turning out more and more talented golfers, but they
     haven't been fairing very well against our brethren from across the
     pond.  I personally think Fred Couples has as much talent as possible,
     but yet he has a hard time winning consistenly...some say he has an
     'attitude' problem.  Maybe, maybe not.  More likely, his motivation
     isn't as high as maybe the Europeans/Brits is.  I hate to rag on our
     boys, but they haven't exactly faired well the last few Ryder cups.
     Granted, they were lucky to walk away with a tie last year, but they
     should have WON the thing.  Couldn't pull it off in the clutch.

     And another thing :-), I read a report in the paper Monday about some
     'redneck heckler' (quote from the paper) that was heckling Woosnam on
     Sunday.  It seems that the Europe/British fans are more appreciative
     of good golf and compliment good golf when they see it, regardless of
     where the golfer comes from.  That's class.

     'Nuff said.

     Dale

     P.S. I truly hope we kick butt this time and bring the cup home.

    planting a freshman on a practice range and having him hit balls
    for four years, testing him in some tourneys, will never turn out
    a golfer...the foreign players play much different courses than what
    most American players play and therefore develop a "feel" for the game
    
    ever watch the kid who was the hot shot basketball/baseball/etc. player
    go from his local gym/park/etc. to the outside world against players
    who learned their ball "in the playgrounds"...there is no comparison
    as the kids from the playgrounds develop a "feel" for the game that
    will always make them better....!!
    

    In the interview with Johnny Miller (Golf Digest, May) he said it's
    hard to believe that not only they'll be playing on a new course but on
    a course on the ocean designed for Europeans, and that Dave Stockton
    (US captain) is worried about it...I guess with that kind of attitude,
    no wonder Europeans been kicking US teams' butts.
    
    A decade ago when we still had 'Stars' like Jack and Tom it didn't
    matter where the game was played. US was able to kick butts. Now we
    have a cookie cutter syndrome where everyone looks alike, dresses
    alike, swings alike and they all plays alike. They all are good players
    but no 'stars'. Even player like Strange, Azinger & Couples are 'LX'
    version and not Ferraris.
    
    I sure miss the good'ol days....

    I think it will be tough forthe Americans to win the cup this time
    around for the following reasons:
    
    1. The qualification process we use works to our disadvantage. Dave
    Stockton will only get to pick two players at random. Dave as the
    captain should be able to hand pick the team. The best medal play
    player may not be the best at match play. Our qual. is based upon
    points at medal play.
    
    2. The course will not favor the Americans. It will look like the
    courses played on the Europeon tour. No advantage for either team. 
    
    3. The will to win: I think the Europeons are hungrier. I think they
    will be even hungrier coming to America to challange for the cup. The
    Europeons will want to beat the Americans on their own soil, especially
    after the display at the Masters that we gave Woosie. I watched the
    Masters and felt Woosie was more determined after the heckling. Victory
    is always sweeter on someone elses court. 
    
    The one thing the Americans have going for themselves is that Dave
    Stockton has modified the Merrill-Lynch Shoot-out over the next few
    months to allow it to follow the Ryder format. This should get us
    accustomed to the format and "team-up" the right players.
    
    In any event, it will be the most widely covered event since the
    America's Cup challange of the 80's. 
    
    GO USA. I know I'll be watching.
    
    Ken

    
    RE -2 You said that the american system of picking the team is against
    you. Why ? Surely the system is the same as the european way of picking
    the team. I.e. the ten top money winners on the respective circuit and
    then the captains choice of two other players he personally wants in
    the line up. I know but I can't remember exactly what, that there was
    a slight difference in the two teams selection format last time out,
    but they were still fairly similiar. One last point, the European
    circuit only really has one match play tournie (of note) the Suntory
    world matchplay, so surely our selection system picks medal players
    rather than match players as well....
    
    food for thought !!
    
    Keith.
    
    P.s.  On a bias keel EUROPE all the way, as you may say KICK SOME ASS
    BOYS ...

    how about a five year plan to make the young American players better..
    
    eliminate the "top 125" and restore Monday qualifying at
    tourneys...this
    will make them "hungry" again!!
    
    play at least half the tour events "in the boonies" courses that make
    you think and half to "play shots"...
    
    every golfer who obtains his card for the first time is "required"
    to play the European Tour for the first year....
    
    in five years we can eliminate the "clones" and maybe regain some
    competitiveness (sp?) we've lost....
    
    

    Re .4
    
    The selection criteria for the US and European Ryder Cup teams
    are different.
    
    The European team is based on the top Nine players on the Order of
    Merit as it stands at the end of the German Open on August 25th.
    Bernard Gallagher has then to make three choices of his own to make up
    the twelve man team. 
    
    The US is based on two year statistics. During the two years points are
    gained on USPGA Tour events depending on where the player finishes. 
    So if a player wins an event he gets so many points, second gets fewer
    and so on down to about tenth place. The majors carry higher points.
    
    With the US system a guy could have had a great first year and
    collected lots of points, but now have a sick game this year and still
    make the RYder Cup team. That could be disadvantageous.
    
    However, the same could be true in Europe. Take Steve Richardson for
    example. He's nearly got enough cash to secure his place in only 5
    outings or so. Yet by September he could be burnt out...it's only his
    second real season remember.
    
    
    Phil.
    
    

    re .6
    "Make rookies play for one year in Europe".
    
    Now THAT's some arrogant statement. Non-Europeans do play the Euro
    tour, but only if they are qualified. To get a players card in Europe
    is just as difficult as it is to get a US players card.
    
    My own feeling is that the reason "our" guys are top dogs at the
    moment is because of differences at amateur level. Our top amateurs
    tend to come through the club circuit, where most of the championships
    are matchplay, whereas I think your top amateurs hit the pro circuit
    from College, where the play is predominantly strokeplay. Now everybody
    knows that to come second in a match is no good. You're out if you do.
    Now second in strokeplay aint bad, hence the greater bite of matchplay.
    
    Matchplay experience also tends to benefit a player in payoffs, which
    are in effect matches.
    
    Still, how does all that explain that when the Sunday comes in the
    Ryder Cup, the Americans tend to win more of the singles matches than
    the Europeans do? Maybe its because we have more power at the top of
    our tree than you, but at the bottom yours is more powerful.
    
    Anyway, who really cares why. It's a great game, fun to watch,
    frustrating as bedamned to play, and long may it remain so.
    
    Sean 

    re: .8
    
    My intent was not to appear arrogant...I simply feel as I tried to
    imply in the second paragraph in .2 that...
    
    playing "link style" courses as opposed to the "country club style"
    that is predominant in the US will make one a better "golfer"...
    
    the type of courses the pro's play in the last twenty years in the
    US has changed...and it's reflected in the golf...
    
    Nelson/Hogan/Palmer/Nicklaus/Trevino/Watson all superstars, read some
    of the interviews with each and the "cow pastures" they use to play
    made them better golfers...todays US pro doesn't do that...
    
    of course I'm assuming that most European courses are of the "links"
    nature as opposed to the "stadiumn" type which may be incorrect...
    

    I don't think we'll (Europe that is) do it this year. We lack strength
    in depth and home advantage. We've still got Faldo, Woosnam, Olazabal
    (and I think Ballesteros will still be good for the Ryder Cup), but I'm
    not sure what there is beyond that. Langer might be hitting form again,
    Lyle is still hitting the galleries but otherwise I don't think we have
    much quality coming through. 
    
    There are some good prospects/players - but I think we've got a smaller
    nucleus of the very good to pull everyone through than we used to.
    We're relying on too many unprovens to rise to the occasion.
    
    I think the number of non-Europeans who do well on our tour hides the
    lack of strength in depth. When it comes to automatic selection, the
    last places could be a few places lower than 9th on the list.
    
    But then what do I know - I never thought Darcy would make that putt!!!
    
    Fingers crossed...
    
    Paul   

    Strong rumor circulating...Jack is back.  Move over boys, the big dog
    wants to eat.  Nicklaus as one of the picks for the Ryder Cup team. 
    Strong setiment amongst the broadcast media...if Jack continues to
    play well....could be that he could strike fear in the hearts of the
    European lesser knowns.
    
    SoCalDandy 

    Re:11
    
    Should read "Strong sentiment"
    
    SCD

    
    re: 11
    
    Should read "clutching at straws".
    
    ...Derek

    
    During the Seniors PGA they kept showing excepts from an interview with
    Jack, part of which was about the Ryder cup. Jack's feelings were:
    
    1) US is at a disadvantage due to to many people being able to win 
       tournaments today. The individuals are not use to winning. Before
       when there was 10 or so guys who could win they all expected and
       wanted to win each week. Now with so many capable of winning you 
       fell good when you come in second. Well when this carries over to
       match play, coming in second is coming in last.
    
    2) He would love to play and thinks he can do very well, he is playing
       better now than in recent years and is having fun again.
    
    Commentators seemed to be strongly in favor of having people like 
    Watson and Nicklaus play in the Ryder cup, these names cause fear in
    European players and if they are playing well they know how to win
    and bear down late in the game.
    
    --Bob
    

RE: Note 1212.14 by CHRLIE::HUSTON

>    Commentators seemed to be strongly in favor of having people like 
>    Watson and Nicklaus play in the Ryder cup, these names cause fear in
>    European players and if they are playing well they know how to win
>    and bear down late in the game.

     I'm probably Jack's biggest fan (and have been for years), however, I
     honestly feel that having him play on the Ryder Cup team, will just
     take a spot away from a younger tour player that *needs* this
     experience.  Our young players will never learn how to handle this
     kind of pressure if we fill the team with players that are quite
     honestly, over the hill.  Granted, Jack is probably playing as well as
     he has in recent years, and he handles pressure better than anyone
     that's ever played the game, but his putting stroke under pressure is
     certainly suspect.  He missed some key puts in the 2nd and 3rd rounds
     of the Masters that might have made a difference.  Even Watson, who is
     7 or 8 years younger than Jack, is having problems with his putting
     stroke.

     My two cents.

     Dale

    
    One of our National Newspapers contained an article on the Ryder Cup
    which read :
    
    American Ryder Cup captain Dave Stockton may recall the veteran Lee
    Trevino as well as Jack Nicklaus for september's clash with Europe at
    Kiawah Island.The article went on to say that even at the age of 51,
    the Golden Bear and Supermex are more intimidating than most of the
    colourless clones populating the much-vaunted US Tour. 
    
    With the last noter expressing concern about not giving the younger
    guys a chance, what is the overall feeling about the USA bringing back 
    players like Trevino, Nicklaus and Watson ?
    
    ...Derek
            
    
    
    
    

    re:16
    
    I believe that Trevino and Nicklaus are playing well enough, and have
    done so for the last year, to warrant consideration.  I do not think
    that Watson,today, has made it back.  He has played well of late, but
    Jack and Lee have played very well for a year.  The intimidation factor
    would be high, and the "team" intangibles even higher.  If these guys
    are selected by Stockton, then great.  The other 10 "young" fellows can earn
    their spots buy beating the "old" fellows like Wadkins, Irwin, Floyd
    and Zoeller.
    
    SCD

    I believe that Trevino and Nicklaus have what the "clones" don't have-
    the Killer Instinct. Johnny Miller (and countless others) have referred
    to the U.S. Tour players succumbing to "Top-10-itis", and that this 
    attitude spawns the lack of the "K.I."
    
    Trevino was clearly out of the running last weekend, but he played the
    last round fearlessly and got back to a respectable score. Jacks 
    concentration may have wandered on the last round, but he had put
    the field away by then.
    
    I know there has been discussion on this in here before, but I truly
    feel that the "Young Lions" may all have contracted the "2nd place
    makes a whole lot of bucks anyway" disease. 
    
    I read somewhere some proposal to pay the winner of a PGA tournament
    the whole pot, and the also rans little to nothing- maybe this would
    put some fire in their "flat bellies"......

    
    I think it would be a great idea to bring Watson and Nicklaus to the
    Ryder cup, they both are playing great now. Watson has been playing
    very solid on the tour this year so far. As for Super Mex, I think
    he is great, but he is not playing up to the same caliber as
    Watson and Nicklaus, he has done nothing on the regular tour and 
    so far this year on the Sr tour, I don't believe he is up to his
    usual quality. The other 2 have been in the top a couple of times
    on the regular tour, though Jack can't seem to get past the Sat 
    round.  I think the experience at winning that they have would
    be a great advantage that the current player (in general do not
    have).
    
    People I would like on the Ryder team: (in no particular order)
    
    Jack,
    Watson
    Payne Stewart
    Lanny Wadkins
    Fuzzy Zoeller
    
    
    Maybe:  Floyd and Irwin.
    
    Not sure who should round out the team, but this would be a solid base.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    
    I think that the addition of Nicklaus, Trevino et al (the 'old folks'
    if you will) would add a great deal to the US team.  Why?  Because the
    essential element is the will to win.  I've seen alot written about the
    courses in Europe being more difficult, the weather is harsher and on
    and on.  Medow Muffins I say!  The American society today is made up of
    the baby boomers that don't understand what it's like to want for
    anything. They have had all the advantages that a rich society has to
    offer and as a result are whinning twits that think the world owes them
    a living. While I don't want to pontificate about the American
    Educational system (whatever happened to the 3 R's),  it seems to me
    that the average American doesn't have the disicipline or work ethic
    that existed in this country 30 years ago. While I'm no expert, I've
    observed the European culture (while on business trips) HAS the same
    desires and work ethic that I was given while growing up in the 1950's.
    What does this have to do with golf?  Well to my way of thinking, if
    there is no need to strive for excellence, no need to work to improve
    your lot in life, then second place is good enough.  When second place
    is good enough, then you loose.  Europe was not blessed with the riches
    that America has.  As a result, they've had to work for a living.  This
    has led to their dominance in golf and probably soon the economic
    arena.  I admire Ian Woosnam, Nick Faldo et al for their perseverance
    and hard work.  I am ashamed when they are the subject of snide
    remarks at the hands (mouths) of my countryman.  Bringing back players
    wtih the desire to win, ala Nicklaus, Trevino can only enhance the
    position of American golf.
    
    
    
    						KO

    
    I don't believe that bringing back the "old guard" would be such a good
    idea simply because Nicklaus, Watson and Trevino don't intimidate the
    way they did a decade ago.
     The Watson of old would have put the fear of death in Woosnam had
    they both been head to head for a major title 10 years ago. At the
    Masters this year I always felt Woosnam was more concerned by the
    challenge of Olazabal than that of Watson. 
    
    ...Derek. 

    re .21
    
    Even if you are right about the Watson of 10 years ago scaring 
    Woosnam, the question still remains, are the "old guard"
    better at winning (when second means you loose) than the new
    crop of players.  No one ever claimed they could have the same effect
    as they did 10 years ago, if this was the case the Ryder cup never
    would have left American soil.
    
    --Bob
    

    Re .21
    
    I concur with .22.  Whose to say that these "old guard" would go head
    to head with the Woosnan's.  If they are matched against the lesser
    known of the Europeans (those who are predominantly European tour
    players), the shadow of the Bear or Lee would cast far.  The Stewarts
    and the Couples and Azingers would benefit as well.
    
    SCD

While all golf lovers were tuned into the Masters, Sam Torrance (Ryder Cup
team '87 and '89) made an interesting comment after he had won the European
Tour event that ran at the same time. To paraphrase his statement, he remarked
that selection/invitation for the majors should include all players of the Ryder
Cup teams.

After all the discussion in this particular topic especially how well prepared
Europeans are for pressure matches, plus the fact that 5 Europeans have 
captured Master's titles in the last decade - isnt it about time that the US 
extended a wider embrace of European players and invited them to compete in at
least the big events?

Further evidence of restrictive thinking arose from Hardin's speech at the
Jacket award ceremony, when he admitted that there were members of the committee
who were opposed to inviting Woosnam in the first place. Thanks to him the
invitation went through, but what does it say for other quality players outside
the US?

This situation could also provide an answer as to why Europe is so fired up to
beating the US in the Ryder Cup, - its the only opportunity for the lesser names
(eg D'Arcy, Rivero, Torrance, O'Connor) to prove their quality. It is possible
that the US might start lifting the cup again when the doors to the majors are
open wider to non-US players.

    I'm planning on being in North Carolina in September at ULTRIX
    University.  Anybody have a clue about getting tickets?
    
    
    						KO

    
    Anybody got the info on the Ryder Team, I heard yesterday was the day
    to pick the team.
    
    --Bob
    

	I know that Chip Beck, and Ray Floyd were Dave Stockton's captain
choices. He said that he never even considered Daly. Others off the top of
my head are, Payne Stewert, Steve Pate, Lanny Wadkins, Fred Couples, Hale
Irwin. Is all I can remeber right now. There are 10 players who automatically
qualify, somehow? Anybody know what the criteria is?

/Ron

    One thing is certain; television had nothing to do with the selection
    process. Floyd and Beck (yawn) instead of Nicklaus and Daly? The PGA
    had it's highest rating in many years with Daly walking away with it.
    And the same guy that designed Crooked Creek designed Kiowah and they
    are virtually the same yardage. The Euros must be laughing at what is
    IMHO the weakest team the US has ever fielded. Of course, having said
    that, the US will probably win handily.
    
    Chris

     I agree with .29. If Daly plays well at the International, Stockton
    will look stupid. Beck is probably a good choice, but there's a lot of
    the "Old Boy Network" in this deal. Stockton wants guys with
    experience. Well, using that criteria, you can pick guys from the last
    2 teams that a) Lost and b) Tied. Great experience. Or, you could still
    have Sam Snead playing. Hell, I'd take Phil Mickelson (If he were
    eligible) before most of these guys. Otherwise, let the players pick
    em' (I know, I know, it's illegal), they know who can play...
    
    --Jack

         Jack,
    
                I agree with you. By taking Daley, the contest would have
    had generated much more interest. Also, why keep Zinger on the team ?
    Isn't he supposed to have an ailing shoulder and I think that he hasn't
    been playing for a while.
    
     
    
    
                          Ken

Re: .29

|    The Euros must be laughing at what is
|    IMHO the weakest team the US has ever fielded. Of course, having said
|    that, the US will probably win handily.

     I believe the point system has built a weak team.  Stockton did a
     lot by adding some experience (Floyd esp.).  Luckily for the US many
     of the European name players are having lack luster years also.

     Regarding Jack & Daly.  Jack hits the ball well, but I don't feel his
     putter is up to this sort of competition.  Daly's win at the PGA was
     superb, but he doesn't have the depth of experience.  I hope his game
     proves me wrong over the long haul, but he had all the makings of a
     player in the zone, playing over his head at the PGA.  


	Larry

    I was reviewing .7 as to how U.S. Team was selected and I feel it is
    fair to have 8 of 10 decided by how players fared in the tournements
    themselves.  I then had a thought that perhaps some of the points
    should be gained from playing in European tournements then came
    reality.
    
    Deane Beman is not going to encourage American pros to play in England
    while his American sponsors are staging PGA events, Ryder Cup or no
    Ryder Cup.
    
    It is my opinion that you could take 75 names of American Pros and
    throw 10 darts and get your team - Mr. Daly wouldn't have been one of
    the 75 before last week.  That is the big difference between the two
    sides.
    
    bb

    The reason that I mentioned Jack and Daly is that Jack has outperformed
    Floyd in 7 of the last 8 majors, which are the closest thing to the
    pressure of the Ryder Cup, and the Cup is being played on a course
    virtually identical to the PGA tournament course that Daly tore up.
    Sure Daly's a risk, but if he is on with his driver, he would be
    incredibly intimidating (e.g., sand wedge vs. 4-iron). Plus I have
    NEVER seen anyone strike his putts with the confidence that Daly did in
    the PGA. Making the short ones is what match play is all about.
    
    Chris            

    Add to this the fact that one of the formats is alternate shot.  Most
    of the guys drool about Daly's off the tee position.  I personally
    can't see the choices.  Chip Beck is a good golfer with zero appeal. 
    Jack should be there and so should either Daly or someone like Lee.  If
    you are looking for experience.  I think RAY FLOYD IS THE BEST OLD
    PLAYER ON THE YOUNG TOUR, but if this is an "all star" type of event,
    why not let at least one person, maybe the top rookie during the year
    be a part of the team...I believe that this would be Daly for this
    year.  Instead it is left up to a team captain to work the "good ol
    boy" system to his best advantage.  If he wins, he's a genious...if he
    loses, maybe there will be some changes.  At least Boom Boom is there.
    
    SCD

    Well well well, after reading the last few replies if I were Bernard
    Gallagher I would save the freight charges and leave the cup at home as
    we will only have to fetch it all the way back again. 
    
    Bernard has used one wild card on Faldo he may however have to use
    another on Jose Maria Olazabal depending upon what happens at the
    German open. The Europeans will win. Because it's the only time that an
    important golf tournament is played in the States where you let a fair
    amount of European tour players in.
    
    There are only two unknowns about the up and cominf Ryder Cup. 1. Is by
    how many points the Europeans will win by, and 2. How many times that
    gonk is going to shout "Get in the hole" or "Youdaman". Should any of
    you going to Kiawah Island come across this character. Would you mind
    inserting a used Titleist into his mouth, preferably using John Daly's
    driver.
    
    Best Regs,
    
    Barry. Deputy Ambassador For European Golf.

	Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think some of you
guys are way off base.  John Daly has won "ONE" tournament in his entire PGA
career.  He has "NEVER" faced the pressure of a Ryder Cup match.  There is no
way he should be on this team at this time.  As for Nicklaus, well, I think he
would have been as good a choice as Floyd, but no better.  I also think the
team is a decent one and has a good chance of winning this year.  As for someone
asking, why Azinger, I think he was an automatic from his Ryder Cup points.  
There really was no decision here.  With this being a match play tournament,
you really want players who know when to gamble and when not to, as oppossed to
those who just go for broke all the time.  Match play is so much different to
the regular medal play we see every week.  If your opponent gets into trouble on
a hole, then you play it safe.  And if he hits a great shot, then you sometimes
have to 'Go for it' instead of playing your normal shot.  I think this US team
will do well.  Obviously, only time will tell.

Beak

    re:36
    
    You forget one unknown...#)How many "need a life", George Orwell loving
    ginks will call in to report some percieved grevous infraction they
    think they saw while sucking down a "natural water" and inhaling their
    "pure Oxygen".  Must be tough to watch a golf match and have to ignore
    the fun and human side so they can catch one of those devious, cheating
    golfers besmerching the game.
    
    As for the Ryder cup, depends on whether H. Bob's sister comes by and
    just how much golf can be played by Payne Stewart before someone jumps
    him and rips those ugly clothes off of him.  The U.S team is full of
    exactly what ails baseball and footbal...Parity.  No personalities, no
    charisma....no threat.  At least guys like Daly, Nicklaus and Trevino
    would have made an"event" out of it.  Now, we will be forced to watch
    reruns of Heidi pre-empting the final three holes.
    
    SCD (COD-Cynic of the Day) 

    Anybody have the dates, television coverage more about site etc of
    upcoming Ryder?

My last word on Daly & the Ryder cup...Yesterday he shot 80 at Firestone a 
course suited towards long (but accurate) hitters!  I hope the guy is for real
and not another Andy (I don't with anything but US Opens) North.  However I 
think seasoning, not the pressure of the Ryder Cup is in order.

Larry

    
    Don't think snyone feels that Daly is the best golfer or anything more
    than an interesting sidenote in the annals of golf...but he would add
    some marketing sizzle to an otherwise ho-hum event.  I and many other
    noters have an interest in golf, but for the thousands of uninformed or
    just curious, it takes human interst stories like Daly to get their
    attention.  The Skins game knows that they exist because of TV and the
    format and have seen fit to invite Daly.  Even the announcers say it
    would add some life to an event that has a hard time grabbing TV
    appeal, especially since some of the matches don't go the full 18
    holes.
    
    You need to look at some of the names below Daly for the World Series,
    most notably Paul Azinger to see if an 80 one day is bad.  

    
    Below are the two teams for this year's Ryder Cup, with their playing
    records in previous Ryder Cup matches. Europe has five debutants on its
    team, while the USA has 3.
    
    
Europe:

                   Age    Previously played         Won  Halved   Lost
Nick Faldo          33    77,79,81,83,85,87,89       16    2       9
Seve Ballesteros    34    79,83,85,87,89             13    4       8
Bernhard Langer     34    81,83,85,87,89             10    4       8
Ian Woosnam         33    83,85,87,89                 7    3       7
Jose-Maria Olazabal 25    87,89                       7    1       2
Mark James          37    77,79,81,89                 5    0       8
Sam Torrance        38    81,83,85,87,89              4    4      10
Colin Montgomerie   28
David Feherty       33
Steve Richardson    25
David Gilford       25
Paul Broadhurst     26

USA:
Lanny Wadkins       41    77,79,83,85,87,89          15    1        9
Hale Irwin          46    75,77,79,81                11    1        4
Raymond Floyd       48    69,75,77,81,83,85           7    3       13
Chip Beck           34    89                          3    1        0
Paul Azinger        31    89                          3    0        1
Mark Calcavecchia   31    87,89                       3    0        4
Payne Stewart       34    87,89                       3    0        5
Mark O'Meara        34    85,89                       1    0        4
Fred Couples        31    89                          0    0        2
Wayne Levi          38
Steve Pate          34
Corey Pavin         31

Well, golfers,  it's  time  for the Ryder Cup.  I remember reading in the
paper that TV  broadcast is in the morning (I don't remember channel).  I
didn't see any evening review schedule. Will there be any?

Tavo

    The 'Cup' is on the USA Channel starting at 8AM EST on both Friday and
    Saturday. I'm not sure about Sunday. I remember seeing a blurb in the
    papers that said that there will be 21 hours of coverage over the 3 day
    tournament.
    

	In high winds and on "scary fast" greens the US took the morning
	foursomes (alternate shot) 3-1.

	Azinger and Beck were 3 up at the turn.  On the tenth tee, Olazabel
	and Seve called them for changing balls.  It turns out on the seventh
	tee Beck went from 90 to 100 compression, a violation.  But it had to
	be called before the drives off of 8, so no damage!

	However, the Spaniards won 10, 12, 13, 15, & 17 for a 2 & 1 victory.
	Their record is 7.5 - 1 now.

	Couples and Floyd got to 4 up and hung on to defeat Langer & James
	2 & 1.  Floyed made just about everything within 10 feet.

	Wadkins & Irwin blooded the rookie tandem of Montgomery & Gilford
	by birdying 4 of the first 5, making the turn 5 up, and winnig 4 & 2.
	Irwin replaced the injured Steve Pate, and fired darts at the pin all
	day.

	Stewart & Calchavechia hung on in the closest match to defeat
	Woosnam & Fadso 1 up.

    You'd think Beck would know better.  Looks like the Spaniards made
    them pay though.  
    
    Chuck

    I would say that the European's were very lucky just to loose by 3-1.
    They started pretty badly and were'nt allowed back into the match 
    until the later stage's.As for the two "Rookies" they did'nt play that 
    badly but they were up against it right from the start.
     
    
    

    Let me be the first in this note to congratulate the US team on
    regaining the trophy !
    
    It was, as expected, a close thing.  Who would have predicted that the
    fate of the cup would go down to the last putt.
    
    Amazingly, players with big reputations played poorly, and those with
    little experience did the biz. 
    
    
    martin

     I'd like to congratulate the Europeans on their fine play. Although
    I'm glad we won, the Europeans probably desrved it. Some observations:
    
    - Is Mark Calcavecchia the biggest choke artist, or what ? That drop
    kick he hit off of # 17 (With Montgomerie already in the drink) looked
    like one of mine...
    
    _ Hats off to Bernard Gallacher, who simply epitomized "Class."
    Truthfully, I thought Tony Jacklin had no "Class," although he was a
    good Captain.
    
    - Worst "Class" I've seen yet was Dave Stockton. What a Bozo !! I
    apologize for him and remarks he made, like his comment on Langer in
    the trap "He's gotta get it up and down, or he's history." Correct of
    course, but I thought that the object was simply to play as well as you
    can and let the better man win.
    
    - Irespect Ballesteros, but I don't like him. Seems arrogant.
    
    - Ray Floyd folded after he gagged that short putt.
    
    - Ian Woosnam is a hell of a guy, and we're lucky we caught him on a
    bad day.
    
    - Corey Pavin and Paul Azinger would be a hell of a team.
    
    - Jose-Maria Olazabal is the best player in the world. Best I've seen
    in a LONG time.
    
    - Azinger can play for me anytime. So can Lanny Wadkins.
    
    _ I know it's in the rules, but Stockton should have played his
    alternate instead of halving the Pate match. Bring the alternate to the
    match and let him play practice rounds. He's part of the team, too.
    
    - If Pate and Gifford played the last match, it would have taken
    forever. With all that pressure, and as long (And sometimes wrong) as
    they hit it...
    
    - John Daly would have been a HUGE mistake. I love the guy, but that
    course was a real "Player's" course.
    
    - I LOVED Kiawah, but that short par three on the back is a bad hole.
    Can't hold it with an 8 iron in the wind, and you can't bump it on.
    What's left (Bogey) ?
    
    - They should skip The Belfry. There's too many great courses in the
    British Isles to have to play that goat ranch.
    
    - The team selection process should be identical.
    
    - Best tournament I've ever watched !
    
    --Jack

    I thought he said "It's History"  - but remark was not classy.  He was
    feeling pressure terribly as his stricken look after it proved to not
    be "history" showed.  Worse was his implied criticism of team members
    that he felt were not best representatives (because of performance in
    90 not 91), with many matches still up for grabs.  Did he have Azinger 
    and Pavin in mind at the time?
    
    So much going on, so difficult to follow everything.  I don't want to
    be too critical of the coverage but it sure seems it could have been
    more informative.  But the drama was right there on the faces so it
    probably didn't need to be highlighted.
    
    Poor Calcavechia, so many of the 2' putts were 'given' but he had to
    putt his on 17.
    
    The entire last day should be put onto a video.

    
    I think the best class act under pressure came on day 2, when an
    obviously shocked Ray Floyd found out from the T.V. crew that he
    wasn't going to play with Couples in the afternoon.  He handled it
    better than most after he caught his breath.
    
    Stockton should have made sure he let Floyd know before anyone else.
    
    Shane
    

I didn't see as much of this event as I would have liked to, but I was
totally unprepared for the emotions it evoked.

I've only seen the standard professional golf tournaments where;

	- someone wins (maybe an underdog)
	- someone comes in second (only wins 2x my yearly salary!)
	- someone comes in third
	- etc.

You may or may not feel good for the person who wins.  The crowds (and myself)
seem to be pulling for everyone and really come just to watch good play.  It is
an individual sport, everyone tries their hardest, and someone wins and others
don't. 

The only time it gets even a little emotional is when a sentimental favorite
wins, or win a total unknown overcomes the odds and pulls out the win.


...BUT THIS WAS DIFFERENT  !!!

I assume that lots of you played on your school teams so you might have 
experienced this kind of team emotion and PRESSURE.  When I first tuned in I 
heard the usual TV-speak about the "pressure putt" or shot, etc.... it sounded
just like your usual golf match.  But, as the competition continued, and it
finally became apparent that the crowds were REALLY ROUTING ***FOR*** one 
team/player or the other, you, as a viewer, now began to REALLY feel the 
pressure too.   Then, on the last day the last match, ALL your teammates (who
worked so hard TOO to win) AND all the FANS, are all around you waiting for YOU
to do "what's expected" of a pro and to sink those 6 foot putts, hit those
island greens, etc., the pressure seemed quite unbearable to ME!!!

From the looks on their faces, it was clear that these pros were also quite 
unaccustom to this kind of pressure AND emotion.  It was AMAZING.

(...now that I think of it, I'm not sure I could have TAKEN the pressure of
    watching much more of that play!)

This was a GREAT event ... to watch and experience.  I look forward to it's
next occurance (2 years?).  Maybe I'll be ready for it next time!

John

    i'm really amazed that langer conceded the last putt to irwin. it was
    only a 2' putt but the pressure would have been enormous since that
    putt would have been for the ryder cup. 
    
    seems like a mistake to me. 
    
    ananth

	Easily the most enjoyable weekend of golf I've ever seen on TV.

	Ron o.

    
    	I see the 2' putt differently.  I respect Langer for giving the putt
    away.  All weekend 2' and in were being given away from both sides with
    respect to the other golfers.  It would have been a little BUSH league
    and unprofessional to make him putt it when a precedent had been set
    in all previous matches.  Langer must have said to himself, OK
    I sink this putt and we win.  He missed. How many noter's could have made
    that putt under those conditions.  
    
    	I think they could have played at a better course but it did appear 
    that the course favored no one. 
    
    	I say, Congratulations to the US team for earning the cup and
    Congratulations to the European team for making them earn it.
    
    	I can hear the hype starting up come Jan. and the beginning of the
    92 tour season.   Great golf from both sides.  I wonder when/if there
    will ever be a World Golfing Tour?
    
    tom

    I agree. The two footer had to be conceded by Langer. 
    It's more to do with the ethics of Golf than anything else.
    By conceding the two footer Langer showed a high level of respect for
    his opponent, which is what Golf is all about, not the 'We must win at
    all costs' approach which comes from other sports. 
    
    This was shown , I believe, at its highest level by Nicklaus in the '69
    match when he conceded a three to four footer to Jacklin which led to a
    tied match. By the way, I've no doubt that Irwin would have made the putt.
    
    martin

    I disagree entirely about the 1' putt - perhaps it was 2; it looked
    less.  First,
    
    Montgomery did make Calcavechia sink his 2' putt on 17 which is why we
    were all still watching Irwin and Langer;
    
    Langer conceded the putt for one reason; by doing so it enabled him to
    completely focus on making the putt at hand.  To have kept the thought
    of Irwin still possibly missing his gimme would have complicated the
    making of the putt that he knew he had to make.  I think Langer made a
    very wise choice in doing this although he was a 1/4" off on the putt. 
    If the putt had been paced slightly less it would have fallen - but he
    certainly couldn't have left that baby short.
    
    So if you still think that ethics or sportsmanship had anything to do
    with the ceding of Irwin's putt then start jumping all over Colin
    Montgomerie for not ceding Calcevechia's putt.
    
    I do grant that many 3 and 4' putts were gimmes all day and a certain
    amount of sportsmanship went into that but with a match on the line
    nothing over 6" was going to be a gimme - with the exception of the
    above where giving the putt was to the player's advantage.
    
    the way I see it

    Some call it "sportsmanship" but I call it "gamesmanship".  You give
    putts early so your opponent does not have chance to get zoned in. 
    These guys were being so polite to each other it was fun to watch.  You
    know in their hearts they wanted to make every shot count...but...
    
    Truly a great thing to watch...and I am sorry that Langer had to bear
    the burden when the U.S team gagged it.  He should have been out of his
    misery early...but Calc and Irwin folded like string puppets.  Being a
    Boom Boom fan, I think he was all class, as was Ray Floyd.  I think
    Payne Stewart kept looking around to see if Jack was in the gallery. 
    As for no John Daly...I still would have loved to see him there.  Maybe
    the rookie of the year or the winners of majors should be on the team. 
    Plus, you could certainly help build a future team by giving some young
    guys a chance.  Can you imagine him hitting a 4 iron on 17 instead of a
    3 wood like Irwin.  Oh well...wait til' 93.  
    
    SoCal
    

    re: .58
    
    it's not "what you hit" that counts...
    
    getting there in regulation is what counts....

    re:59
    
    SInce not many got there in regulation, maybe it might matter what you
    hit.  Most people were left, way left, right or way right.  I am
    certain John Daly could have been just as right as Calchiveccia or just
    as left as Payne Stewart.  
    SCD

    re: .-1
    
    hey your right Daly could have hit a 4 iron and been just as "wet" as
    Calc...
    
    or...hit a 3 wood and been dry like others....
    
    209 into that gale translates to a carry of at least 229...
    
    now that's is a "BIG WET 4 IRON..."

    When I think of the term "Wet," I think of the old days when I used to
    "wet" my irons up with Vaseline. You wouldn't BELIEVE how far you can
    hit irons with "Grease." Of course, the U.S.G.A. considers grease about
    as desirable as an Uzi...
    
    __Jack

    Must be H... when you forget and lick the ball to clean it.  Jack, you
    are now the Gaylord Perry of the notes file.
    
    SCD

    Hello,
    
    	Who did Faldo beat in his singles Match in the 91 Ryder Cup.
    
    
    						Four

    Just a comment here to perhaps "bubble the broth" a bit. Given the
    tradition of the Ryder Cup, why do they have to hold it at The Belfry ?
    There are so many wonderful, traditional courses in the U.K. that
    golfers here never get to see, that I think would do an event of this
    moment more justice - places like the Old Course at Sunningdale,
    Hoylake, Carnoustie etc. I'm not saying the Belfry is a bad course, but
    does it merit the Ryder Cup (or does Kiawah, dramatic though it masy
    be) ?
    
    On an amusing note, my "SO" planted a yellow bush in one of our gardens
    and asked me what I thought. I said, "isn't that Scotch Broom ?" She
    asked me how I knew, and I replied "I know about Broom, Whin, Gorse and
    Heather, because I've been in every *&%$#@ one of 'em ! They're not
    something you forget - and once you're in 'em, put a fork in yourself,
    because you're done!"
    
    __Jack

    
    Although not confirmed...this looks like the last time the Ryder Cup
    will be played at the Belfry. It could be played in Spain in 1998 in
    recognition of the contribution made by Seve and Olly in previous
    Ryder Cups.
    
    Del.