Conference 7.286::golf

     In my experience it's because most people think that they can hit the
    ball farther than they actually do. How many times have you seen
    someone hit it short of the green, the ball rolls over the green and
    the guy says "too much club."
     People just don't hit enough club to easily fly the ball to the pin.
    
    --Jack

    
    In my case (I've only broke 100 once), I come up short alot because
    of my own comfort zone.
    
    If I have a shot that calls for a 5 iron, and I start to worry about 
    swining the 5, I may go as low as a 7 iron just for the confidence of
    hitting a smoother shot.  I guess I figure 20 yds shorts is as good
    as 20 yds off line.  Or if I'm stuck between clubs, I always go for
    the smaller one. 
    
    Hopefully, these are things I will cure as my game progresses with 
    more lessons and practice.
    
    Shane
    

    maybe it's by choice, most greens slope from back to front, if you are
    long then you are looking at a down hill putt or chip
    
    peter

    I agree with Jack. Plus I think we always try to get the max out our
    clubs. Example: 180 yrd.s to the green
                    I remember once I hit a 5 iron 185 yrds.
                    Hits the 5 iron 170 yrds straight as an arrow
                    good swing,straight, well hit................
                    ........................................short 
    
                    mumble mumble *&%# should have hit the 4 iron
    
                                                      

    I think it's because we pick our clubs based on the "pure" shot.  
    Unfortunately, we don't "pure" our shots quite as often as the
    pro's do.
    
    Rick

    
    I think Rick is right on in .5
    
    However, as much as I have always heard that you should take the extra
    club if you're between clubs, I always take the *less* club.
    
    I find that if I take the extra club, I 'back off' the swing and don't
    hit it well, or I hit it so smooth it goes much farther than it
    normally does. With the less club, I consciously make a more solid
    swing and make sure that I accelerate *thru* the ball rather than
    swing fast from the top. As long as I remember to *not* try to kill it,
    it turns out OK. 
    
    Also, as someone stated, there is typically less trouble in front of the 
    green than behind it, so it's easier to get to get up and down.
    Obviously I'll take more club if I have to carry a bunker or water
    short of the green.                               
    
                                   -Joe
    up and down

    I think that one of the reasons we mis-club is because we have no
    consistancy in our swings. For example how often have you hit a
    stunning 5 iron at the pin and tried to emulate the same shot from the
    same distance only coming up 20 or so yards short.
    
    Having watched an enourmous ammount of golf on TV this year I noticed
    that all the Pros would not take a club out of the bag until they have
    calculated the exact distance from the pin. This is because through
    hours of practice they have developed a very consistant swing enabling
    them to know how far they can hit each club in the bag.
    
    I myself suffer with the (I really want to hit the flag on my second
    shot) syndrome which leads to an inconsistancy on distance. I see the
    flag and try to play the perfect shot with a club that I see the Pros
    hit. The only trouble is, is that I quicken up my swing and mis-hit the
    ball. I have had to learn to take more club than the Pro would take and
    keep my swing as fluid as possible (it works). I even started
    experimenting by going down the shaft with good effect. 
    
    
    Steve

     A long time ago while I was in the Golf business, I spent the winter
    in Palm Beach Gardens working at the old PGA National course. I had a
    chance to shag balls for quite a few club pro's and senior players -
    all proficient players. I noticed one interesting thing when I shagged:
    all the pro's hit the club they were using a specific distance ALL THE
    TIME. They might hit it to your right or left, but if, for example they
    were hitting an 8 iron, and the person I was shagging for hit an 8 142
    yards, he ALWAYS hit it that distance, give or take a yard or so.
    Variations, as I said earlier, were right and left.
     I think that's why distances are so critical to tour guys - if you
    tell one of them he has 168 to the stick, he can almost "feel" 168 in
    his hands. When we start hitting 75-80 % of our shots with each club a
    specific distance, then we'll KNOW when we have the right club - and
    you find that out on the range. Until then, it's a crapshoot, and many
    of us will continue to select clubs based upon how we hit the ball on
    the best day of our careers. To people like that my advice is "that's a
    game, but it ain't YOUR game. Smarten up, give your ego a rest and hit
    the correct club. And enjoy those lower numbers."
    
    --(Ex Caddie) Jack

    
    re: -1
    
    Jack,
    
    You mention in your note that we find our distances at the range...
    
    That's one of the biggest problems I've had in trying to learn this
    crazy game.  The balls at the ranges are so beat and dead, that I 
    can not get an accurate feel for how far I should be able to hit 
    each club.
    
    For example, I can' hit my 8 iron 100 yds at the range, but on the
    course, when I'm using a good ball, I hit 9 or pw from 100 yds quite
    well.
    
    So, I never get enough shots in where I become comfortable with my
    distances. 
    
    Shots 100 yds or less, I know, and long shots 175 yds + I know (woods),
    but I never know what to hit in between!!!!!!
    
    Shane
    

    
    Why don't you try going to a better range.  I know that when I go to 
    a range that has good grass to hit off of and has decent balls, my 
    practise is much more beneficial.  I would rather go to a good range
    twice a week, then a poor one four times a week.  As far as the topic 
    goes, I read a similar article or story last year about avoiding
    underclubbing.  This year I did try and use more club on my approach
    shots.  The results were mixed.  Seeing as I was hitting a snap draw
    most of the year, (aka duck hook) although more of my shots hit the 
    green, fewer of them stayed on.  On those occasional days that I did
    hit the ball straight, I found that I did hit more greens, but the ones
    that I missed were in more trouble.  So reviews are still mixed.
    
    Steve
    
    P.S. Anyone have a good cure for golf DT's.   ;-)
    
    

    re: last few
    
    	I disagree about finding yardages on the range...I have yet to
    find a range that has good conditions/good balls(not solid but wound)
    and at the same time has good yardages marked off....I uses the range
    to hone my mechanics and swing tempo then check my yardages on a course
    where there are markers that can be used as reference

    
    re: .10
    
    I'd love to try practicing at a "Better range", but there's one big
    problem.  I live in VT., there is no such thing. :-)
    
    Shane
    

    
    I think most people under club simply for 3 reasons:
    
    1) They don't know how far they hit a club. They usually know whay they
       hit from the 150 markers
    
    2) THey can't accurately judge distance.  You usually guess how far you
       are from the 150 marker.  When the course my league plays on put in 
       fairway markers every 25 yards it helped me alot with the over 170
       yard shots because I was incorrectly guessing how far behing the
       150 marker I was.
    
    3) They don't take variables like wind, lie and up/down hill to the 
       green into account.
    
    --Bob
    

I'm near sighted so I usually pace off most all my shots.  That helps eliminate
the shots where you made a good swing with the wrong club in your hand.  If you
pace off your shots from 150 yards you can start to develop a sense of how
far you hit each club.  I've got about 15yds between clubs from wedge thru
7 iron, then it drops to about 7yds. per club.

A couple observations, most players also don't factor in the lay of the land
enough up hill, down hill, etc.  Also most courses are designed so that there's
not much trouble over the green.  So there is less penalty for taking too
much club, rather than too little.

Larry

    
> A couple observations, most players also don't factor in the lay of the land
> enough up hill, down hill, etc.  Also most courses are designed so that there's
> not much trouble over the green.  So there is less penalty for taking too
    
     Have to disagree with you here Larry.  Most all the courses that I've
    played, and for 80% of the holes on each course, there is more trouble
    long than short of the green.  Most greens if you go over, not only
    do you stand a great chance of finding woods, marsh, or Ob but if you
    do find your ball, you are faced with a difficult chip over a steep
    bank with a downhill slope to the pin.
    
      The occasional hole, you will find water guarding the front of the
    green.  Bunkers usually are found flanking the green.  I've always
    scored better by playing short than long.  Other thoughts and
    observations?
    
    -rick

Rick, 
>     Have to disagree with you here Larry.  Most all the courses that I've
>    played, and for 80% of the holes on each course, there is more trouble
>    long than short of the green.  

	I beg to disagree I just did a quick random sampling of my collection
	of caddy books from various courses.  It appears that there is at least
	60% of the time the back of the green is clear of traps, water, etc.
	I agree if you air mail the ball you will often be in trouble.

	However the point I was trying to make was that most players marginally
	under club.  Instead of carrying the ball to the green, it usually 
	lands short & bounces on.  (Well that's if it's not landing in a trap,
	pond, etc.)  If they took more club to carry the ball to the green
	they may not all stop on the green, but they would probably be
	better off.

	Your point is well taken though, you should consider the consequence
	of a shot hit "too" good.

	Larry

    strange...I always try to take the club that will carry the ball to the
    center of the green...not long or short....

    Re. 14
       I must agree with Rick on this one Larry, 99% of the time I
    would rather be short on my approach than fly the green. The
    courses that I play on (many different ones) penalize you much
    more for hitting over the green than short. Sure, the occaisional
    water hazard in front has to be carried but bunkers don't bother
    me so I don't mind hitting into one. Usually behind the greens I
    find a jungle. Maybe if you only hit a yard or two over then no
    problem, when I hit over though it is usually a flyer type shot that
    screams over the green and disappears into worse trouble than I
    would have encountered in front.
         As far as miss-clubbing goes, I've got the distance down well
    on my clubs for calm weather and level courses. Its when the weather
    or lay of the land requires different club slection that I encounter
    problems. The wind is the hardest for me to guage, followed by the
    downhill shot to a green.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Hi,
    
    	I don't think you can generalize this topic... sometimes it's
    better to take be short, other times long. Each hole has a strength
    and weakness. If you try and play strong into every green, it'll
    eventually catch up with you... same can happen if you play it
    short. Raymond Floyd played Augusta tough by missing the greens
    to such perfect locations... leaving himself a few birdie chips.
    Your course may have most of the greens sloped toward you, if so....
    you'll be playing it low of the hole and scoring. Once you go
    pin shoppin'   bogie ;( ...
    
    	You ever play a few holes in a row where you flew the approach
    	shots to the pin, and were rewarded with a makeable birdie putt...
    	then try the same thing on the following hole ( where the pin
    	is back) and fly the green, only to post a double ! I hate
    	when that happens :) !!!
    
    	Walta

    Good points Walta !!! The hole design and pin position really
    dictate what kind of shot to play, and where an acceptable
    miss will hopefully go.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Do many of you check, each time you play the course, the pin position
    beforehand?? I know the pros have it done by their caddies, but how
    many times do you walk the course prior to playing??
    
    
    Sure, pin positions affect what you do, but often it's not easy to know
    whether the flag is at the front or the back when you're a good
    distance away from the green. 
    
    
    Another factor is the terrain... it might be better to play pitch and
    run shots, deliberately paying short and allowing the ball to roll on. 
    I guess that's more played on our British courses. 
    
    
    
    Phil.

>    Do many of you check, each time you play the course, the pin position
>    beforehand?? I know the pros have it done by their caddies, but how
>    many times do you walk the course prior to playing??
    
    Well I most often ply the South course at Stow.  You can see most of
    the fron nine pin positions from an adjacent tee.  So I check #4 from #2,
    #6 from #4, #8 from #7, #9 from #8.  You can't see most of the back nine
    because it's more wooded with less parallel fairways.
    
    It's interesting I started charting the South course.  I found that many
    of the greens are about 30yds. deep.  That can be a 1-2 club difference
    between front & back.  

	Larry

    Our course has pin position marked by flag color.  Red-front,
    yellow-middle, white-back.  Really helps!  More courses should do it!
    
    Rick

    
    I usually only check pins that I can see as I drive up, or as I walk
    around the course.  I usually only go for the flag from about 130 
    yards and in. Other than that I usually go for the center of the green.
    
    --Bob
    

Rick,

>    Our course has pin position marked by flag color.  Red-front,
>    yellow-middle, white-back.  Really helps!  More courses should do it!

That's a great idea.  One of my pet peeves is courses that use the whiffle
ball on the stick to tell you what the pin position it, but don't set it
properly.  Nothing is more frustrating than to take enough club to get
the ball to the back, cause that's where it says the pin it, make a good
swing, only to walk up to the green & find that the flag is 40 feet away
at the front of the green!

Larry

    Most courses I play around here have a little flag on the pin staff.
    The distance the hole is from the front of the green is indicated using
    this flag. If the hole in close to the front of the green, the flag is
    low on the staff, vice-versa for far back on the green.
    
    Some of you may have seen this flag and wondered what it was for. Now
    if you REALLY want to confuse the people...just move the flag up or
    down ;-).
    
    Bob

    Until my handicap drops A LOT MORE, I just shoot for the green....
    
    I'm a pretty good putter, most of the time, so if I can be on the
    green in 2 or 3, a par or bogie is not out of the question. I very
    seldom 3 putt...
    
    Jim
    

    After the last set of rainstorms over Christmas, it was more like
    "pitch and plug" on my local course !!
    
    Cheers
    
    John
    

    Re .28
    
    Jim,
    
    If you very seldom three-putt, I want to sign up for the "Stevens
    School of Putting". I've got a lot of work to do this winter getting a
    consistent, stable putting stroke....that works!!
    
    Also what a good idea about the different coloured flags..pity that
    doesn't get used more widely. Can't see the movement of a toggle or
    whatever up and down the flagstick working too well. Despite the fact
    that I wouldn't stoop so low as to move it after playing the hole, 
    golf IS a competitive game you know and maybe there are others who
    might. 
    
    
    Phil.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Phil....Practice, Practice, Practice....
    
    I probably practice putting 2 hours a week....
    
    Jim
    

Jim,

>    Phil....Practice, Practice, Practice....

Isn't it amazing.  About 1/2 of the strokes in par are putts, but how little
time people spend practicing putting!  I remember one night I went to Stow
to practice putting.  I was the only person on the practice green.  However
the practice tee was jammed packed!

Larry

    re.-1
    
    
    I agree....Luck has a BIG part.....
    
    Jim