Conference 7.286::golf

    
    Welcome Graham,
    
    Actually there used to be keywords, until a couple weeks ago when I
    made a change to the conference to allow notes to be moved more easily.
    For some reason after that all the keywords were gone...! I haven't 
    had the time to look into it. If anybody knows what I might be able to
    do to get them back I would love to hear it. I hate to have to think
    they all have to be added again... :-{
    
    Regards
    Gene

    
    Rick Blaisdell pointed out that the keywords still work, but they
    just don't show up any more when you do a show key command...
    
    	You can still do a DIR/KEY=STOW for example...
    
    Regards and thanks Rick
    Gene

    
    From what you say, I can't tell what you mean by the ball going to the
    right. Is the ball going straight to the right, or curving to the right
    (a slice for right hand players)
    
    If the ball is going straight to the right, there is a good chance the
    problem is alignment. What you should do is:
    
    1) pick out a spot and line up to hit the ball there. 
    
    2) Have a friend take a club and put it on the ground so that it is
    parallel to you shoulders and feet.
    
    3) Step back, is the club on the ground pointing at the target? It
    should be.
    
    Another thing to try, this is how I taught my wife, is to put 2 clubs 
    about 8 inches apart, parallel to one another and pointing at the 
    target, put the ball between the clubs, now put another club parallel
    to the first two, just infront of where your feet go.  Now take your 
    stance lined up on the club near you feet. When you swing, concentrate
    on pushing the club back with mostly you left hand, and make sure that
    it goes straight back and stays low to the ground for the first 10-12
    inches. You should be able to hit the shot without hitting or moving
    any of the clubs on the ground.
    
    This forces you to take the club back straight and follow through
    straight. If you don't want to risk you clubs, any straight stick will
    do.
    
    Give it a try, it worked for my wife and fixes me up when thing go
    wrong.
    
    --Bob
    

    Re. .3
    
    I seem to be blessed with both of these problems !  In the case of
    "pushing" although I feel that I am lined up OK I still end up firing
    the ball initially in a straight line off to the right.  Picking a
    target somewhat to the left of the fairway seems to help there, however
    there is still the problem of the slice.
    
    It is really quite impressive to see the ball curve gracefully off to
    the right with an increasing angle - well it would be impressive if it
    was someone else hitting the ball - especially on my tee shots, I seem
    to consistently manage to slice the ball, things are not quite so bad
    with Irons - although I do manage to do it there as well.  Last time
    out a friend suggested changing my grip a little, however that did not
    seem to have a great effect.  Any further thoughts would be appreciated
    and thanks for the info in .3.
    
    Graham

    My ball goes off to the right (straight with irons, slice with woods)
    if I don't get an adequate shoulder turn.  This makes you come through
    late and swing mostly with your arms.  The other thing which just makes
    this worse is not getting my hips through ahead of my hands.

     All new players seem to have this problem. You gotta release your
    hands (roll them over through the hitting area MUCH !! faster). The
    best way to start is to significantly strengthen your grip - move your
    right and left hands over toward your right shoulder. Then concentrate
    on consciously turning the toe of the club over as fast as you can
    through the swing. The stronger grip will help this.
     Don't make things any more complex than this right now; forget the
    hips, etc. Just do this action over and over and TRUST IT !!
    
    --Jack
    

    RE. 6 - Sheesh! I just spent $30 for a lesson to be told almost the
    same thing...I too had gotten into a very bad habit of hitting a lot of
    weak shots, mostly to the right, with more height than distance. My
    pro had me make a couple of "test" swings, and immediately suggested
    that I (1) strengthen my grip (hand more to the right of the grip); (2)
    take the club back straight (I'd been taking it radically inside); (3) make
    sure my left wrist was straight, and my right wrist was cocked at the
    top of the backswing; and (4) release the hands very early in the down-
    swing ("roll" them) to get the clubface square at impact. At least,
    that's as much as I can remember!
    
    Interestingly, he guessed that on those rare occasions when I *did*
    manage to get the clubface square at impact, the ball rocketed off to 
    the left; needless to say, he was correct. He also pointed out that if
    I tried to overcome the lack of distance by swinging harder (which I
    did), I'd only make the problem worse, since there was then even less
    time for my hands to catch up with my arms and body. How right he was.
    Now, if only we get some more decent weather, so I'll have a chance to
    put this lesson into practice!
    
    		Frank

    .6 is exatly right...and from ages past we also have...
    
    
    "the basic factor in all good golf is the GRIP. Get it right, and
    all other progress follows."
    							Tommy Armour
    
    "...the only secret is sound fundamentals."
    
    							Jack Nicklaus
    
    why do we all seem to make it so difficult...?
    
    

    This ought to be good, I disagree with the "roll hands"
    theory.
    In 1977, took a lesson and "roll the hands" was the big item:
    Didn't break 95 for a whole year. Figured it was me and
    started looking to buy a boat and give up golf.
    
    1979, while in New York, bought" the Hogan 5 lessons" book.
    YOU DON'T ROLL THE HANDS, he hit throughwith the left wrist
    "suppated" (or slighty bent) as in a tennis swing.
    THEN after striking the ball, AFTER, you let the hands roll.
    It's the "bent" left wrist that returns your clubface to square!
    IF you roll BEFORE striking the ball, you are dead meat!
    I call it "lay back", the left wrist lays back until impact.
    There's a great article in GOLF DIGEST, using the "whip"
    theory on hands that is the best I've seen, I think it
    was last month's issue. I describes it better than I have, BUT
    the whip theory is right on. You know a golfer has used the
    "lay back" or whip function on the end of his swing when you see
    at the finish that the momentum has his right thumb pointing
    to the ground!   DON'T ROLL !! lay back and fire through AFTER
    hitting.  
    Ben Hogan thought that this was SO important, that he actually
    cupped back his square take away in order to make sure it was done
    properly, that is the cocking of the hands at the top to bring
    back the left wrist "suppated".
    He also stated that this small item SEPARATED the good golfer
    from the bad, and you are inviting disaster if you don't do it.
    
    OK, so now let's here from the "roll" advocates!
    Ang
    

    
    Graham....
    
    My advise would be to FORGET your woods.... leave um in the car. Hit
    nothing but middle irons off the tee, AND on the fairway. When your
    first starting, and hitting in the mid 100's.... there has got to be
    more wrong with your game besides slicing! Whatever club feels the
    best, perhaps a five iron..... keep using it till you can hit it down
    the middle.. 
    
    FORGET ABOUT DISTANCE! ...
    
    	Smitty
    

    Re -1: Yes, correct. "Roll" is the wrong word, and I'll flog myself
    with a sand wedge for having used it! But I think the correct word is
    "supinate," its complement being "pronate." In any event, one has to
    release the hands, regardless of what you call it, to return the
    clubface to a square position at impact, which is what I haven't been
    doing for the entire season (so maybe I've had enough flagellation for
    one year). My pro likened the proper position of the right wrist (for
    righthanders) at the top of the swing to that just before throwing a
    baseball, to achieve the correct "snap" on the throw. 
    
    	Frank

    If the GRIP is correct, and you truly SWING the club, the hands will
    do exactly as they should...roll/turn/pronate/etc.
    
    I think it was also Hogan who stressed in his book on fundamentals
    that all this mumble - jumbo is the RESULTS OF correctly excuting the
    fundamentals...so if these are correct you need not even think/worry
    about them...they will happen correctly "AS A RESULT OF GOOD
    FUNDAMENTALS..."

Graham:

Notes 8 & 12 are  right on.  Learn the fundamentals and NEVER deviate from
them.  The best description of the fundamentals is still Ben Hogan's Five
Fundamentals of Golf.  Believe in these fundamentals and they will pay off in
the long run.  Don't fall into the trap of deviating from the fundamentals to
compensate for your own personal swing flaws.  It is a long tormenting road
of constant swing changes that ultimately lead to golf purgatory.  (Golf hell
is where you hit every shot perfect and shoot 18 for each round)

Secondly, learn how to help yourself by analyzing your incorrect ball flight
at the range (never analyze on the course).  In general the ball will start out
where the club is heading and land (or curve towards) where the clubface is
looking.  Make corrections accordingly.

The hardest part about golf is to overcome your instincts.  Undoubtedly, you
started making the common mistake of an out-to-in swing path (caused by an
arm dominant swing, similar to hacking with an axe, and thus the origin of the
term.)  So your first instinct, arm dominance, was wrong and caused you to 
put slice spin on the ball, and the ball went right.  But then to make
matters worse, your second instinct was to pull harder to the left to keep
the ball from going right and now you put even more slice spin on the ball
and the ball goes farther right.  "What a fine mess we've gotten ouselves
into now Ollie."  

The correction you need is to learn how to use your lower body to alter
your swing plane for the down swing to one that is flatter and will deliver
the club into the ball from the inside (meaning the clubhead is moving away
from your body into the ball at impact).  No one could describe this movement
more beautifully than Ben Hogan in his Five Fundamentals so go out and buy it
right away.  It will be the best $5.95 you ever spent.

Rick
------------------------------------------------------------

Now to get my two cents worth with those gentlemen who want to talk about
release:

The best way for the human body to square the clubface at impact in a golf
swing is to use the body (not the hands) in a "full body release"

Why is this the best way?
Because it maximizes distance and control.  That's what we all want right?

What is the "full body release"?
Instead of using your hands you leave your hands as unreleased as possible
and rotate your entire torso open at impact such that it is some 45 degrees
open or more.  Yes, the hands are ahead of the ball and supinated but this 
is only possible with and a by-product of, the "full body release"  
After impact the torso continues to rotate into the follow-through as the 
arms extend away from the body and release at the target (the hands 
finally fully release some several feet after impact).  

How can you square the club without using the hands?
Remeber that you want to square the clubface to the target not your body. 
In the above description I mentioned the body must be very open at impact
which means, if your body is wide open and your clubfce is looking at the
target, then relative to your body your clubface appears wide open.  The
clubface won't be square to your body until the full release of the hands
some several feet after impact.

So how does this improve control?
Let's do an experiment.  Make a slow motion swing and watch the clubface
roll from open to close as you release your hands.  Happens pretty damn fast
(or in a short distance) doesn't it.  It happens too fast, no human being 
could ever time their swing accuarately enough using this rapid hands 
release at impact and hit the ball straight for very long.  The less 
you release your hands through impact the slower the cluface is rotating 
from open to closed and the more likely you are to hit it straight when 
your timing is less than perfect (which is most of the time, even for pros).  
"Golf is a game of misses, whoever has the best misses wins."(B. Hogan)

So how does this improve power?
What's stronger your wrist muscles, or your leg, hip, and back muscles.
The concepts of power in a golf swing are very similar to the ones used
in the shot put.  The shot putter uses torso rotation combined with limb
extension to put the shot.  This is a classic example of the
type of power possible using a full body release.

Sounds great whats the catch?
If this kind of release was easy we would all be holding those big checks
over our heads on Sundays.  The big muscles are powerfull but it takes
a lot of time to teach them coordination and grace. Meaning unless you 
have alot of time to work on this kind of release you might be better 
off sticking with the more easliy executable (but less consistant)
hands release at impact. 

Rick

>                                Learn the fundamentals and NEVER deviate from
>them.  The best description of the fundamentals is still Ben Hogan's Five
>Fundamentals of Golf.  Believe in these fundamentals and they will pay off in
>the long run.


The reason why I always harp on this subject is that I am proof that this
is correct. It has taken me five years but I have stuck to these fundamentals
even when things were going wrong. It was a big change for me as I was one
of the original banana slicers with scores always above 100, terrible grip,
bad setup and posture, etc. I'm far from pro material today but beleive I've
reached what my potential is and all because of sticking to fundamentals
that have been proved over the years by many players to be sound....




	In the five years I've gone from a 26 handicap to a 9....from
shooting +100 golf to shooting 75 - 84 golf consistantly....


	A year ago I won the A flight in my club championships after
21 holes....


	This year I was runner-up in the championship flight....


	Many others hit the ball longer than me but my short game
around the greens and my accuracy will 9 times out of 10 make up
the difference.


	It all comes from sticking to the boring fundamentals, but if
you want to play well do yourself a favor and learn them, then stick
to them. You'll reach what is YOUR POTENTIAL, and everyones is different.






>The correction you need is to learn how to use your lower body to alter
>your swing plane for the down swing to one that is flatter and will deliver
>the club into the ball from the inside (meaning the clubhead is moving away
>from your body into the ball at impact).

	The best tip I ever had, to do what Rick is talking about in the
above paragraph, was to:


	"...swing your club like you were going to hit a baseball to second
base." 

	this automatically causes the clubhead to be moving away from your
body....your forced to extend your arms through the shot as you should be
doing every time...


Of course the plane of the swing is different for golf than with baseball,
but swinging with this idea in mind helped me when I got to the point in my
improvement where I was trying to draw every shot. Today I can draw/fade
when I want and the shot will come off corectly 50 - 60% of the time.

    I used the "second base" analogy when I was a teaching professional.
    Golf and baseball are the same swing, except the golf swing is on a
    more oblique plane, and you don't move your front foot. Watch a great
    hitter at impact on a low outside pitch, and compare that picture to a
    great player at impact - it ain't far off....
    
     Now for the "supinate/pronate/5 Lesson" controversy. When Ben Hogan
    wrote "Power Golf," he was a hooker with a strong grip who hit it a
    mile. In 5 Lessons, he was a fader who did not turn his hands over at
    impact. Lots of pro's use this approach, and the best early example is
    Arnold Palmer. Palmer was a great college player prone to the hooks, so
    he went to an extremely neutral, or "weak" grip and said he didn't hit
    a good shot for six months. The "supinators" are generally shut at the
    top ("square to square" is another way to accomplish supination - you
    might be familiar with the term), have MINIMAL wrist cock, and
    compensate with a great coil and leg drive.
     My suggestion is that unless you're real strong, have GREAT
    coordination, supple, are willing to hit a ton of balls for a long time
    and can work with a teacher who REALLY understands the concept, don't
    even think about this technique. Especially if you're a new player, or
    one who has struggled with the game. When I taught the kind of folks I
    just described (especially women - they tend to listen better and apply
    what you suggest) I could always get them to hit stronger shots with a
    lot less "fade/slice/garbage" by working on pronation, or rolling the
    hands. Think about it - somebody comes to you with minimal talent or
    experience, pays you X dollars for 30 minutes instruction and is
    hitting it right to right (what new or less talented player doesn't ?).
    Are YOU gonna weaken his grip, tell him to slide his hips and pull with
    the back of the left hand ? I don't think so. "Homey don't play that."
    I submit that for starters, once balance, posture and grip are o.k.,
    you start with something somebody can relate to - their hands and how
    they feel.
     The other day I was talking to a guy at Crumpin-Fox who is a fairly
    new player - never had a lesson and hit high, weak slices (although
    he's a strong guy in his 40's). With our pro's o.k. I took him out to
    the range, changed his grip and watched him for 1/2 hr., emphasizing
    that he roll his hands. 2 hours later he shot 40 from the blue tees,
    and as most of you know, "The Fox" is tough.
     I'll get off the soapbox, but I firmly believe that supination is only
    for people who meet the requirements I mentioned above - it won't make
    you a good player if you're not already  real close to being one. By
    good player, I'm talking at least legitimate National Amateur caliber -
    minimum. If you're a good, strong player below that level, try it if
    you want, but do it under GOOD professional supervision, and - bring
    your wallet to the practice tee...
    
    --Jack 

what .15 says is what I've seen countless times in print from pro's
when they talk about amature(sp?) golfers. 99% of all amatures(sp?)
would be better off with a SLIGHTLY STRONGER grip because they have
neither the strength or talent to hit good golf shots with a netural grip.

this promotes the roll of the hands Jack talks about....I like to think
of my swing as a door on it's hinges....as the swing starts straight back
the turn of the body causes the face of the club to act as the door opening,
as the swing approaches the ball comming down it's as if the door is closing
the rolling of the hands through impact is a result....not forced...


          ball	 clubhead		BACKSWING
           |       |
           V       V

   <----   O	|  |		face of club appears like a door
                      /		opening as body turns on backswing,
                       --	as result hands appear to roll open
				
                   |  \



O					DOWNSWING with follow through
      O
           O| |	| | |		face of club appears like a door
          \           /		closing as body turns on downswing,
        __             --	as result hands appear to roll over
				through inpact and toe of club rotates
          /        |  \         as Jack says, and you hit solid shots...







Don't think so...take an 7/8 iron out to a range and try it for 15 min.

It'll take some getting use to but you'll hit some shots that give you
that sweet feeling we all strive for. Don't even pay attention to distance
or direction, just get the feeling of good solid club/ball contact as
the swing comes through the ball...it's worth it...!!!

    I used to roll my hands sharply when going through the ball and
    was prone to some vicious snap-hooks. Now I try to let it happen
    more naturally. I am having a lot of problems on my down swing
    though. I take the club back well but when it gets to the top
    and I start down, my hands take over and try to steer the clubhead
    into the ball. As I try to steer it, the right shoulder comes out
    and around and whammo ! Banana ball !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got any tips
    for this transition from back to down swing to keep the hands
    minding their own business ?
                                    Mad Hacker

    re: .17
    

    With all deference to Jack, I was told the opposite
    that ONLY a pro can control a strong grip, and that even though
    a weak grip dosn't torque your hands into a powerful cocking
    , ONLY a top pro or 6 and below can manage a strong grip since
    it takes a lot of timing in the hitting zone, I am 12 to ?
    and have a weak grip. I can't "time" a strong grip.
    
    Case in point:
    
    A Jimmy Ballard assistant pro comes over to my kid and says:
    Great swing, but you have a weak grip. Learn to hit with a
    stronger grip , and you'll get more distance"
    
    He's right. But, he also has ALL the other mechanics(he's a 6).
    No way could I do it. I'd be duck hooking everything.
    
    Until I improve the "big muscle moves" properly, I'll stick
    with supinate(sp) theory. In the latest GD issue, a pro
    uses" the lay back" expression also.
    
    So maybe everyone is right, BUT, teaching some one a strong gripe
    AND rolling are two different things. I would bet a million dollars
    that pros even witha a strong grip come ripping in with that
    left wrist "supinated" , and then let it snap!!!
    
    
    You guys ever watch Ted Williams hit???
     
    That left wrist was flying through AFTER the right one set it up!
    It's called rolling the wrists,NOT the hands!
    (He was a lefty for you young ones)
    
    Did I explain it right??  I'm not a teaching pro but I may
    have created one by "accident". 
    Maybe that's it, roll the wrists , BUT not the hands!!
    Make sense?
    
    Ang ( Vehement) V.

     First, re: .17 - Ask Tony La Russa ! Sorry "Hacker," I couldn't
    resist. I suggest you point your right knee in toward the ball at
    address and keep your weight on the inside of both feet on the
    backswing. Take it back a little straighter, too.
    
     Ang, there are a million stories in the naked city, but all the "duck
    hook" stories I've seen or heard come from hanging back on your right
    side and hitting UP at the ball from the inside. That's the way to get
    that really classic "diving duck" spin. Some people have faster hands
    than others, so they gravitate toward a weaker grip, but that's not
    what I was talking about. To me, the hands have gotta pronate some -
    weak grip or strong - unless as I said you are really a great player.
    What I did not advocate specifically was teaching a beginner or less
    accomplished (though experienced) player to hit shots with no pronation
    AT ALL through impact, just leading the left hand through with a weak
    grip. They'll foul it off every time, and supination feels so weird
    even to "good" (not tour or Ray Wright, although he may use it - I
    don't know) players that under pressure, they don't trust it either and
    hit it farther right.
     If you make a good pass using a weak grip and your timing (which I
    believe comes from "feel," i.e. your hands) is o.k., you can pronate
    all day and hit it fine. You might wanna try shoving your left thumb
    down the shaft when you grip the club to minimize wrist cock, or (my
    favorite) grip the club HALF (!!) as hard at address as you do with
    your left. Trust me on the latter - it works. If you've got the duck
    hooks, a weak grip'll help, but you still won't hit it great until you
    get to the source - swing path and weight transfer. As long as the ball
    is struck below the equator from the inside, fish gotta swim, and
    golfers gotta hook.
     BTW, I don't think handicaps have anything to do with who can handle
    supination or not. There are a lot of "bunters" with great short games
    and low handicaps (GOOD players too !!) who couldn't handle it. I
    watched the Mass. Senior Amateur this year and nobody used that
    technique, except maybe on wedge shots. In my experience, you see this
    action on good college players and many tour players. It works, but you
    gotta "be there to get there.." Enough Zen, 'cause like Dennis Miller
    always told me when he watched me hit it "I am OUTTA here !!"
     As a "final final," when a Pro gets to the point where he has to
    "control" his grip - he weakens it so he won't have to worry, but
    that's after everything else is perfect. Again, I cite Mr. Palmer's
    experience...
    
    --Jack
     

    
      I have a book in my possession called "The Modern Fundamentals
    of Golf" and its by Ben Hogan. The book has 6 chapters, called
    'Fundamentals', '1. The Grip', '2. Stance and Posture', 
    '3. The First Part of the Swing', '4. The Second Part of the Swing', 
    '5. Summary and Review'.
    
      Is this the 5 Fundamentals book you are talking about ?

     Yep.
    
    --Jack

	I think .19 and .20 are BOTH right...!!!!


  pronation is rotating the forearm and hand so the palm of the hand is 
facing downward or backward.

  supination is rotating the forearm and hand so the palm of the hand is 
facing upward or forward.

	I went back and re-read some of the interviews and articles about
Hogan, I also went back and re-read the section in his Five Lesons where
he talks about this and following are the points made. After re-reading these
I think that a golfer has to PRONATE ON THE BACKSWING AND SUPINATE ON THE
FORWARD SWING....or as Jack says "...roll the hands". What Jack doesn't say
is that the rolling of the hands in this way will result in supination on
the forward swing if excuted correctly....of course this is the hands working
together as one unit...without a correct grip this will never happen...

	But CAUTION IS ADVISED here, the pronation on the backswing and
supination on the forward swing ARE THE RESULTS OF A CORRECT GRIP....

IT IS NOT A FORCED ACTION BUT HAPPENS NATURALLY IF THE FUNDAMENTALS ARE
CORRECT....!!!


*** I offer the following as support of this: ***


interview with Ben Hogan by Nick Seitz of Golf Digest, June 1985
----------------------------------------------------------------

" the idea is to rotate the club with the left arm. Poor players and
even some tour players try to do it with the right arm."
							Ben Hogan

"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. .......
............Training myself, I would roll the face open as far as I could.
With this technique I could hit the ball straight and farther."

							Ben Hogan


from Five Lessons the Mordern Fundamentals of Golf, Ben Hogan, 1957
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1) talking about the correct motion of the RIGHT ARM AND HAND in the impact 
   area. (p. 98/99)

"As he follows through, the wrist and hand gradually turn over, and his palm
faces the ground at the finish of his follow-through."

2) talking about the value of the joint action of the two hands working 
   together. (p. 100)

"During the climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and back of the left
hand begin to supinate very slightly - that is, to turn from a position
where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up."

3) reasoning why it's good/bad. (p. 101 - 104)

"Every good golfer has his left wrist in this supinating position AT IMPACT.




Every poor golfer does the exact reverse. As his club comes into the ball,
he starts to pronate the left wrist - to turn it so the palm will be facing
down.
	When a golfer's left wrist begins to pronate just before impact,
it changes his arc: it shortens it drastically and makes the pitch of his
upswing too steep and constricted."


	"Supinating on the other hand, sets up a number of extremely
desirable actions. ................................................
............................."

4) on page 102 in this book there is a sequence drawing that shows the
left hand/wrist/forearm to show the exact nature of the gradual supination

If you read the section in the book and then reference the drawing on page
102 I do not see how you could not come to the same conclusion that I did.

 That .19 and .20 are BOTH right.....but both of them did not follow it
through enough to explain that the rolling of the hands gives the
exact results that Hogan talks about in his book....

	the hands, working together as one unit because of a correct grip,
are pronated on the backswing and the natural rotation will result in the
hands being supinated on the forward swing....

If either of these actions are reversed you'll end up hitting all sorts of



"funny golf shots"

think about the slicer...because of a faulty grip/setup/ect. they are
most likley pronating in the impact area....


think about the hooker(no comments you guys...)because of a faulty 
grip/setup/ect. they are most likley supinating too much/too early/too late
in the impact area....

	It is a fine line and no wounder that the pro's have such a hard
time being consistant....

anyway...buy the book

my 2 cents worth...

    Wow !!!!!!!
    
    What a lot of answers !
    Remember me ? I'm the guy who posted a note 23 answers ago.
    
    First here is what happened since .... I have played once since the
    initial note ... we had 12-13 answers by then and I concentrated on the
    wrists a lot more.  The result was an improvement I believe (although
    not major) I shot a 68 for 9, however included in that was a bunch of
    strokes trying to get my ball up over a 10 foot bank to the 1st tee.
    
    I felt good as I only lost one ball (which translates to straighter
    shooting) and that ball was on the last tee when I decided to really
    wind up and smack it !
    
    The 68 aside, I felt a lot better as a result of the advice as it stood
    then and I am gratefull for all the help.
    
    What really bugs me as more and more advice is added is that we do not
    have a range to practice on here !  There just isn't one.  It makes it
    tough to try to play and beat 68 (or whatever) and also try to learn
    how t improve (pronate/supinate etc.) so, I will stick to the
    fundamentals until I can get some time at a range.  I will also
    continue reading this file as you guys are most helpful.
    
    I should get 2 more games here between now and when the course closes
    and my "plan" is to be down below 60 by then.
    
    Thanks Everyone
    Graham
    

     I'd also suggest that you spend a LOT of time practicing chipping and
    putting. It'll help your score and your "feel." Most beginners are
    absolutely awful around the greens - no "touch," and they select shots
    that have a low probability of success. Practice will help this quite a
    bit - and you don't need a range. Also, find a field where you can hit
    "half" (NOT FULL SWING) shots with a wedge and 9 iron. This too will
    help improve the way you release the club and set the stage for more
    clubhead speed.
    
    --Jack

    
    re: .24
    
    If there is no range, invest in some wiffle balls.  They aren't the
    best way to practice, but you can get some swings in.  Also, find 
    a school yard and hit the short irons!
    

    re: .24
    
    	forget about scoring while trying to learn correct fundamentals...
    spend the time that Jack talks about in .25 and the scoring will
    come as a result of that time because it is time well spent...

    Some real good advice in here.  There is one other thing though. 
    Someone mentioned slicing because the right shoulder was coming up
    during the downswing.  I've seen this many times, and have done it
    myself too often.  MOST OF THE TIME this is caused by setting up to
    the right of the target.  So add one more thing to the list of
    fundamentals, check to make sure you're aiming where you think you are.
    
    BTW..... Jack I'd like to play golf with you sometime and talk about
    the golf swing.  I consider myself a student of the swing and I agree
    with what you have to say and I think it would be a most enjoyable
    round.
    
    
    						KO

    Not to add fuel to the fire on the issue of hand action, but: one of my
    chronic problems (as noted in an earlier reply) is faulty release of
    the hands (in fact, for most of the season, hardly any release at all).
    As my pro told me, my hand position at the top was all wrong, owing
    mostly to a grip that was too weak. He got me to strengthen my grip,
    and concentrate on proper release; but the lesson still hadn't taken
    hold this past weekend - a very frustrating 9 holes indeed!
    
    Then, while watching the seniors, I saw something that made it clear:
    They analyzed Jerry Barber's swing. Barber is in his 70's, and is a
    small man, but still manages respectable distance (enough to make a
    pretty fair check on the senior tour). As Bob Murphy said, Jerry picks
    the club up quickly on the backswing, cocking his wrists almost
    immediately, then continues the swing from there. I believe my problem
    with lack of distance comes from lack of proper wrist-cock. At noon
    today I stopped at the local range to try a small bucket, and was
    amazed at the difference. I not only hit them farther, I hit them
    staighter! I guess this is a little unorthodox, but it seems to me I
    read an article by Nick Faldo in Golf which made a point of stressing
    the early cocking of the wrist, too. Any of you "pro's" care to
    comment?
    
    		Frank
    

    see the article by Harvey Penick in nov golf magazine. One of
    the leading teachers for years he also was instramental in keeping
    Hogan on the tour when Hogan first started out and was always broke
    and never winning. Hogan dedacated his first book "POWER GOLF" to
    him. 
    
    	Anyway see the article as the first thing he talks about is
    the GRIP and if I didn't know better I'd think Jack Varley was
    the one who wrote the section on the grip. What Harvey says about
    the grip is what Jack has been telling us all along.....

    I have a great deal of success with the following concept especially
    with Juniors and Beginners:
    
    G A S P
    
    Grip, Aim, Stance, Posture
    
    In that order of importance. If you read Hogan's Five Lessons, he can't
    stress enough the importance of the grip.
    
    Give it a try 
    Ken

    In order to hold a club, you need a grip.
    
    But not every pro grips it the same.
    It's called by someone,"dial a shot"
    
    Played Poquoy Brook with a kid with one arm.
    He shot 87. Had only a left arm.That means he had only"a half grip".
    
    Hit the driver through wedge great.
    His problem ??
    Putting.
    Without 3 and some 4 putting, he might have shot 78 !
    
    There's a message there.
    The message is a TOTAL athletic move and swing! And you can "dial"
    your shots with a different grip, as long as the athletic swing
    is there.
    
    come on Jack, let's hear it!
    Ang
    
    
    
    
    

    sorry...memory is becomming write only...
    
    in .30 I said Penick was the one who helped Hogan and last night
    I checked and I was wrong it was Henery Picard...don't trust your
    memory...still it is an excellent article...
    

    re: .32
    
    GOOD GOLF BEGINS WITH A GOOD GRIP. The only connection with the club is
    through the hands...without it the best swing in the world will never
    function as it should squaring the clubface to the ball REPEATEDLY...
    
    

    
    Hi,
    
    	The last few outings I shot about 5-8 strokes per 9  worse than my
    handicap trying to do the supination/desperation/exasperation with
    my wrists... I never really thought about it before, UNTIL I read
    this topic :) ! Now I either hook/draw/slice/fade or hit it straight.
    I will only draw the ball, when aiming to hit a fade... and vise versa.
    
    I tremble at the tee, ducking from even a 25 cent Nassau ! And don't
    any of you go thinking I'm taking any match's for cash, even though
    I have been known to bet when I shouldn't... ego thing.
    
      So my tip is , if it ain't broken don't fix it. And whatever you're
    doing DON't think about it ! :)
    
    	Walta

    
>    	The last few outings I shot about 5-8 strokes per 9  worse than my
>    handicap trying to do the supination/desperation/exasperation with
>    my wrists... I never really thought about it before, UNTIL I read
>    this topic :) ! Now I either hook/draw/slice/fade or hit it straight.
>    I will only draw the ball, when aiming to hit a fade... and vise versa.


	Any time you change something it will take time to work. Muscle
memory is like that. Ever try changing the way you write you name? It is
a hard thing to do because you've spent your life doing it a certain way
and your muscles have been trained to do it that way. To change that
pattern that your muscles have aquired takes TIME...almost all of us
when changing something in our golf game EXPECT improvement right away
or it isn't a good change...WRONG...your game in 90% of the cases will
get worse before it gets better when trying to change something....

	I think you have to evaluate (or have a pro do it) what you
WANT to improve/change and then work on it repeatedly and give it time
to work. IT takes TIME and LOTS of HARD WORK but it pays off in the end.    

It has taken me FIVE YEARS..and I still have a long way to go...!!!!
My game went south for two of those five years but I stuck it out,

in 1988 I had moved from another body in our club championships to a
15 handicapper who "upset a 9 handicapper" before I was eliminated..

in 1989 I won the first flight in our club championship....

in 1990 I was runner-up in the club championship......

Sure it's a small 9 hole course but it fits my game because I'm not
a long hitter, but it can work for anyones game...on any course...
This is why I beleive in what I've said about it taking TIME and LOTS
of hard work...


>      So my tip is , if it ain't broken don't fix it. And whatever you're
>    doing DON't think about it ! :)
    
	I agree, if your satisfied with what you have and how you play
there can be danger in trying to change things just for the sake of some
notes file or "tip"...

    Re. the "grip" article in the new mag...when I saw that, I could only
    think it was *exactly* what my pro had just told me: strengthen the
    grip to get the proper position at the top of the backswing, and the
    proper release at impact.
    
    Re. the last couple (on the time it takes for a change to take effect):
    Yes, it takes time, and most of us (myself included) are conditioned to
    expect "instant gratification," so if the change doesn't "work" right
    away, we dump it and go back to what we were doing before (and to the
    old level of play, that caused us to seek the "fix" in the first
    place).
    
    Conversely, there's the saying that "any change you make will produce
    an apparent improvement the first time you try it" (which then
    diappears the second or third time). It takes a lot of will power to
    stick to what your mind knows is right until your body has time to
    catch up. If I do nothing else next season, I will stick with the right
    grip and the sound fundamentals; and when things start to turn sour, I
    won't try a self-cure: I'll see a pro!
    
    		Frank
    

    
    HI,
    	
    	Geee I didn't mean to sound so serious... I know how change
    can have bad initial results. I'm not saying you shouldn't try
    to achieve proper mechanics, when initially they fail to 
    produce. 
    	What I meant was, as an example : a friend of mine once asked
    me what I thought about on my backswing, at the time I was winning
    the match, after the next 3 swings ... he was winning the match ;)
    
    I never though much about what wy wrists were doing, it just happened.
    
    Once I thought about it , I lost my timing... and that's when the fun
    started ! There have been positive results though, I've learned
    the importance of hitting the fairways, and developed a good short
    game. 
    
    	Walta

    Re. -1: Right, Walt...the old "do you inhale or exhale on your
    backswing" ploy, eh?? It comes down to swing keys (discussed in an
    earlier topic). Nicklaus says he asked Snead (Sam, not JC) what he
    thought about when he swung. Snead's answer: "Nothing." All the
    thinking has to occur prior to the swing; and all the fixing has to
    occur prior to arriving at the golf course, because, as another old
    saying has it, "If you didn't have it with you when you came to the
    course, you won't find it while you're out there." Keep swingin' till
    the snow (ugh!) gets here!
    
    		Frank

    re: .32 - I agree, but unless you're contemplating making a "trick
    shot," I wouldn't recommend messing with the grip. Get a good one and
    go with it.
    
    --Jack

     Walta, my cheap advice to you probably mirrors what you've already
    heard. You're a good player using your original "action," and with time
    and increased playing/practice you'll improve some. If you're happy
    with what you've got, don't mess with it. If you want to find out how
    good you can be, go to a good teaching pro, have him watch you and then
    set your expectations with him (he'll either agree or modify what he
    thinks you're ultimately capable of). Then the two of you should set up
    a program (lessons, etc.) to get you where you want to be.
     This idea might be too much bother, but I've seen it work. The keys
    are a GOOD (!!) teacher and realistic expectations. BTW, the short game
    can never be TOO GOOD...
    
    --Jack

    re. -1
    
    jack,
    
    you bring up a good point about finding a pro to work with you on your
    game, the problem is how do you find the pro that is not interested
    in $$ but is interested in you? any ideas?
    
    peter

     Pete, I don't relly have a good answer for you, I'm afraid. In my
    personal experience, the best guy I've worked with by FAR is our pro at
    Crumpin-Fox, Ron Beck. He's logged thousands of hours at Innisbrook and
    Skokie (Ill.) Country Club and is a very good analyst. He keeps it
    simple. You need to find someone like that - a guy who has a LOT of
    experience, and who has taught in demanding environments. To succeed at
    a place like Skokie (I played there - it's a former U.S. Open site and
    the club and membership makes Worceter C.C. look like Pinecrest in
    Berlin, Ma.), you better be good. Once in a while you can find a guy at
    a driving range who is good, but that's an exception. Most of 'em are
    "band aid guys," quick fix people. Good for o.k. players, not good for
    better players. Just my opinion, and I hope it helps. From what I've
    seen, Stow Acres isn't great.
    
    --Jack 

    jack,
    
    you think stow acres is bad, then you should go over to amherst cc
    driving range, talk about band aid guys, well these people are the king
    of band aids, i have to laugh everytime i hear a lesson when hitting
    balls, not only do these "pros" play bad (i don't think they can break
    80, and there's a women there that can't break 100) but more
    importantly they just don't have any experience, maybe i'll look ron
    beck up, i'll be in that area next sat., when does the fox close??
    
    peter
    
    
    

     Peter, I think The Fox closes in mid November. I think the range is
    still open. Give Ron a call at 413 648-9101 and tell him I sent you.
    
    --Jack

    Walt, I know what you mean by ducking on a 25 cent Nassau. My HDCP came
    down but I've been in a real slump lately so I cringe when I have to
    give my HDCP for the bet. Funny but I just took a lesson from the Club pro
    at Fort Devens and would you believe he told me to strengthen my grip.
    all I could think about was this note file. I won the lesson for being
    on the worst team. To give you an idea of the quality of the team, my
    partner drove me into a tree in the golf cart. Come to find out he was
    drunk. This was at 9 O'clock in the morning.
    
    However, not all is lost I won longest drive out of 70 people. That's 
    a first for me. Fortunately the winter is coming so I can't practice
    supinatation but I do have 25 cents jingeling in my pocket.

re. 42

I definitely agree with what Jack said about staying away from the band-aid 
brigades at the public driving ranges.  I suggest you try the private clubs.
Although most of these places are private for play they allow the pro and 
assistant pros to give lessons to non-members.  This is a different kind of 
atmosphere where the instructors base salaries are better (but not-great by any
means) and the won't be living and dying on the 25 to 35 dollars made off your 
lesson. (at least not as much as the band-aiders).

These guys at the private clubs are usually just plain better technically when
it comes to knowing swing mechanics and are good instructors or you can bet the
memberships wouldn't tollerate them for long.  I think you will find that most
of them will welcome a new face to teach, especially if you are a serious 
student. (it can get real old giving the same lesson to Mr. and Mrs. Jones each
week)  If nothing else you usually are invited to spend as long as you want
after the lesson working on what they showed you on their range, hitting lively
new range balls off finely manicured grass.  To me, that alone makes it worth my
money.  If I get a decent lesson its a bonus!

I did this in L. A. and happen to hook up with an instructor that changed my
golfing life!

A side note about the new range balls-
The club I went to completely restocked their 10,000 range balls (spaldings
finest I might add) twice a year with a brand new batch.
What happened to the 6 mo. old batch?
It was sold to the public range down the street.

    
    
    It's me again!
    
    If you have an athletic make up, and can read, transpose what
    you read in proper movements, no lessons can get you to a 5.
    I've seen it happen before my very eyes,with Walta and Mark . Both
    were/are very good baseball players, and it carried over.
    
    After 5, the incremental improvement neccessary would really have to
    come under the eyes of a super teaching pro that can pick up
    those miniscual movemements needed to get to scratch, an area which
    I am not familiar with! BUT I think it would be something in
    the 150yd and inside game to get closer with those short irons.
    The pros are deadly from this range.
    
    AND the super short game, up and down with no strain.
    
    I'm waiting for "something " to rub off on this 14,  
    and I'm still waiting, Walt!(and Mark)
    
    I go from Walt to Mark to Walt to Mark..................
    
    A
    
    
    
    
    After 5 , and this is very unfamiliar terri
    

    
    
    Reply Angie,
    
    	Hi Ang,
    
    	  This season I spent more time playing (min 6 times a week),
    than I did at the range. The more time I spent away from the 
    range, the more confidence I lost in my swing. Starting the season
    I wanted to get my handicap to zero, and I felt if I played a LOT
    it would happen....  wrong !  What you are saying is right, it
    takes more than one person to produce a scratch or better golfer.
    There is too much of the swing for the golfer to monitor/correct
    improve etc. I wasn't convinced until I devoted the season to
    try to get there, and spent more time trying to fix things I felt
    were wrong... like recently I was all over the course until Pete Stopera 
    after watching me in the CHallenge Cup  said
    "Ya know... I don't think the clubhead should come around and hit
     your knee on the backswing?" 
    
    That was THE problem. Although I was working on grip/posture/stance
    and loosing more and more condifidence with each change ;( ...
    
    	Anyway, I am in the market for a good teaching Pro ! Someone 
    who doesn't enforce his swing on me, but improves my swing...
    
    	Angie, with your teachings, Mark went from 26 cap to 5? In what
    	3 years? or maybe it was 2?  How much are you charging ;) !
    
    
    	Walta
    
     

    
    	RE: Walta and others...
    
    	I haven't tried this nor do I "know" anybody that has, but I
    	would think it would help and would like to try it myself (if
    	I had the money to invest in the equipment)...
    
    
    	I would think for those players like Walta that have a good
    	understanding of the game and the swing that video taping
    	your round and practice time, along with comments on the
    	results of each shot, would be a great help. You would be
    	able to find the problems for yourself (like hitting yourself
    	in the knee on the backswing). Don't just video tape your
    	swing when you are having trouble, but also when you are
    	playing well, so that you will have something for comparison.
    
    	Has anybody out there used this method of selfimprovement?
    	Thoughts on the idea?
    
    	Regards
    	Gene
    
    	

    I haven't tried it personally, but a guy I play with a lot has
    been going to a pro this year who uses video a lot. Al brings home 
    tapes of his lessons and can then see what he looked like when
    swinging well and swinging poorly. His swing has improved so
    much this year it is hard to believe.
    
    Mad Hacker

    re. walt,
    
    i go thur trying to fix things on my swing at least once a week, one
    time this year i was just hitting the ball every where, and tried every
    thing, finally someone watching me said "hey, why are you lining up so
    far left of the target", chick, that light bulb just lit up.
    
    i think one of the problems that i have is that even though my handicap
    is low, i don't preceive myself as a good player, i'm always trying
    to get that 10 extra yards, when i should be happy to hit it stright, i
    think i (and alot of other people) put too much pressure on themselves
    to excell in this crazy game, which causes them to tense up, and you
    know what that does to a swing, as gene said "it's the true head game"
    
    peter 

    I'm reassurred to see that I'm not the only one having trouble
    developing and or keeping a decent golf swing. I wonder how the scratch
    HDCP players come into being? What does it take in terms of length of
    training, practice and learning milestones?
    
    								PHIL

    
    I'd have to say, living in NE , getting to TRUE
    scratch(a lot of people throw that word around without knowing what is)
    
    would be tough. Fla,Cal, Ga, So Carolina .... maybe.
    
    Scratch to me is shooting 70 on South(course rating)
    and 72 on North (course rating). 
    
    I have a freind who was an assistant golf pro in Miami, hit
    500 balls a day and played every other day, was a "Zero".
    
    But up here he''s a 5 or 6. The winter "overlay" just kills
    any chance of getting to zero 'cap. Unless you quit your job
    in April and you are a 6 or 7 already, then you could stand
    a chance. Would be nice to see it on your MGA card,"0" !!
    
    And I think a 6 or 7 would need that "fine tuning" from a pro
    to get there PLUS the weather to play! NE or winter belt
    players have to "re invent" the swing each April.
     
    

    
    Hi ,
    
    	Anyone catch the interview with Johnny Miller last night on
    the show with interviewer Firestone? I don't know the show's name,
    it might be Sports Talk?
    
    	Anyway I only caught the last minute ;( ... but what he asked
    Johnny was what would he liked to have done differently in retrospect,
    (or something to that affect). Johnny responded, that he wished he 
    knew then (when his game/swing was winning) that his swing WAS
    great, and didn't need anymore tinkering. He felt his downfall was
    constantly trying to get better, which caused adverse affects.
    
    	Sometimes I feel like everytime I swing, the ball should go 
    directly where I am aiming. I may play a good round, and feel
    like I played poorly , because I missed 7 greens, and 6 fairways etc.
    I'll start thinking I must work harder on my swing and make it more
    repeatable/consistant. Make some changes due to driving range
    results... and go out and spray the woods ! Because I made a change
    and mentally didn't trust it. I guess the lesson is, whatever you
    do you must feel it's the right thing, and accept the bad days...
    because in the long run, you'll develop a swing that will hold up
    under all circumstances. Because it isn't possible to hit the ball
    at the intended target "everytime"...  right?  I only wish I
    truly believed it, maybe I'd actually have fun golfing ! ;)
    
    	Walta
     

    
    
    re: -1
    
    <When is it good enough?>
    
    
    Good enough is when you get out there on a great day, make some good
    shots, have some great laughs with your friends, win a dollar instead
    of lose a dollar, and the beer is cold in the club house.
    
    That's when it's good enough!!!!!!!!!
    
    Shane
    

re: .55

	and that's the key...to trust what you have and realize
you'll have good days and bad days.

	Hogan said up until 1946 he never felt confident about his
game and was always searching and inconsistant. In 1946 he changed
his attitude and stopped trying to do a great many difficult things
perfectly because he realized it was neither possible nor advisable,
or even necessary. All you needed to groove were the FUNDAMENTAL
movements, that were controllable and so could be executed fairly well
whether you happened to be sharp or not on a given day. He started to
trust that what he had was repeatable under all types of pressure.




	An example of what .55 is talking about is a GOOD player who
could be even better and just recently said to me when I was asking
him about his swing..."there's always something wrong with your swing.."
He's always looking for that problem in his swing, but he plays
GOOD golf(single digit handicap) from tee to green...HIS PROBLEM IS
HIS PUTTING...HE KNOWS IT, but instead of working on that he's always
working on his swing. He doesn't trust what he has...

   Some good points brought up this topic.  I agree that it is almost
 impossible to get to a 0 handicap or below, playing in New England.
 The player has to deal with a multitude of weather conditions plus the
 fact that we can only play 8-10 months out of the year.

   Another point I'd like to make about swing "tinkering".  In my youth,
 when there was oodles of time to practice and play, I'd never be satisfied
 with my swing.  I always seemed to be making changes, both small and 
 drastic.  The short game was great back then when the nerves were calmer,
 so zero practice time was devoted to that part of the game.  But, the
 more I'd practice and work on my swing, the worse I got and the swing
 never developed any consistency.

   Now, in my old(er) age, zero practice time is spent on my swing due
 to other interests and lack of time for golf.  Strangely enough, my
 tee to green game has been good and consistent since I've stopped 
 practicing.  The only thing I "tinker" with nowadays is swing tempo.
 I'm always concentrating on slowing the swing down.  If something is
 drastically wrong and it persists for any length of time, I'd consider
 a visit to a pro but I refuse to ever devote hours upon hours at the
 practice range to make a fix.  The temptation to change too many other
 things, would rear it's ugly head.  Now, to apply the same principle
 to the short game which went from good to bad with lots of practice!
   
    
   Will I ever be a 0 handicap?  Probably never, but I'm enjoying the
 game a lot more now without having to put up with the driving need
 to be perfect at it.  It's nice to just get out and play these days.

-rick
    

    It seems to me that everyone is pretty much on the right track, i.e.
    setting reasonable expectations and still having fun. There IS a
    secret, however (although serious golfers will see right through the
    ethics of it): Play the easiest course you can find all the time (over
    and over) and work your butt off on the short game in between. If
    you're a good 5 at a Stow, for instance, you could be a "newspaper"
    scratch at Pinecrest, Twin Springs or St. Marks after a bit. 
     I don't think that's the crux of the issue. I have a good pal who left
    Crumpin-Fox to join Greenfield. His hcp went from 9 to 5, and he's had
    a few 71's at Greenfield. I just want to again set realistic
    expectations based on how much I wanna work and get in shape and be
    able to play to my hcp. I'll probably never get better in the future
    than my current 8 at "The Fox," but - that's o.k. for me. When I play
    other good courses I occasionally have bad days, but generally I still
    play just well enough to appreciate the course I'm on. Now, REAL
    scratch, that's another animal...
    
    --Jack

    I just can't stand leaving this topic with 59 replies...gotta go for an
    even 60...
    
    If the weather isn't *too* bad tomorrow, I might dust off the clubs and
    head out for a quick 9 at the local muni...I've been working on the
    hand action my pro taught me at my lesson a few weeks back, and
    actually saw some results at the range a week or so ago...hit a few 5
    irons almost as well as I used to when I was young, trim and fearless!
    
    On the other hand, I might decide to let that happy memory burn itself
    into memory for the next few months, rather than disillusioning myself on
    the course tomorrow. Guess I'll just have to see how things look in the
    morning.
    
    Frank