Conference 7.286::golf

    I agree. Part of the charm of golf, to me, is that it's so old and
    flaky that it seems completely removed from the precision (replays,
    etc.) of today's technological sports. It's quirks are part of its
    attraction. But still, OB and water penalties can be ridiculous.
    Think about #2 at Sandy Burr before the OB stakes came off. Here's
    a 500 yard hole, usually with a strong cross-wind, and a landing
    area that's about 25 yeards wide. One foot out on either side, in
    the open, playable, and you're hitting four. You've been severely
    penalized for hitting a decent shot.
    
    Now imagine that you hit a terrible shot somewhere. A giant slice
    that lands in the pond on the adjacent hole. One stroke.
    
    The punishment should fit the crime. I'd favor a simple stroke,
    but not distance, penalty for OB or lost ball.

    Most folks I know pretty much change the rules in "real-time". That
    includes me of course, except when I'm playing in a tourney or playing
    for money in which case my conciense keeps me from cheating.
    
    I just wish it would keep me from gambling on golf so I wouldn't lose
    so damn much money...
    
    :-) (smiley face applied to entire reply, please).

    
    I agree with both previous notes. What was Frank Hanigan's comments? I
    read Golf Digest but not GOLF.
    
    Some courses have areas marked with red stakes (lateral hazard) that is
    not water, it may be an area of reeds, bushes or whatever. This means
    that if you can't find the ball you simply drop with one stroke
    penalty, not the two strokes you esentially get with stroke and
    distance. You shouldn't be charged *TWO* shot penalty for *ONE*
    bad shot.
    
    The OB and lost ball penalties promote slow play, as you are supposed
    to return to where you hit it from, and you don't always hit a
    provisional since you don't antcipate losing the ball or it being OB.
    
    Another rule I don't like:
    If your ball is unplayable you have three options:
    
    1. One club length (or two, not sure which off hand) no nearer the hole, 
       with one stroke penalty.
    
    2. Replay the shot (like OB or lost ball)
    
    3. Keep the point of the unplayable ball between you and the hole and
       go back as far as you want and replay with one stroke penalty.
    
    Now that sounds ok, but consider this: If you are in thick woods to the
    right of the fairway, one (or two) club lengths may not bring any
    relief. Keeping that point between you and the hole only puts you
    deeper in the woods. So your only option is to replay the shot, stroke
    and distance!
    
    I think an unplayable lie should be one (or two) club lengths from
    NEAREST POINT OF RELIEF.
                                 -Joe                 

    An interesting topic.
    
    I agree with most of the points made, especially the .3 reply.
    I also have a pet hate rule. It's the one concerning waiting for a ball
    to drop into a hole for more than 10 seconds.
    It seems to me that a longer period, like 1 minute would be fairer.
    I know of two situations in pro play where the player was penalised for
    waiting too long. In each case the ball fell in after approx 30
    seconds.
    Why penalise that when you don't penalise for a player taking upto 3
    minutes to play a fairway iron shot...like Faldo!
    
    It used to be a two shot penalty for waiting too long for the putt to
    drop. That was changed when Denis Watson got penalised for it in the US
    Open and was only 1 shot out at the end.
    
    martin

    I'm not sure that I agree here. OK it seems harsh that you may be
    unduly penalised for being 1" OB, but if that's the case I'd question
    the positioning of the white stakes, not the rules. If they are so
    close to a 'good shot' then they shouldn't be there. If they've been
    placed to cut off another fairway, it's either for safety or to
    'encourage' you to play up the correct fairway, rather than cutting a
    corner. If you hit it OB in those cases, you deserve stroke and
    distance.
    
   > Now that sounds ok, but consider this: If you are in thick woods to the
   > right of the fairway, one (or two) club lengths may not bring any
   > relief. Keeping that point between you and the hole only puts you
   > deeper in the woods. So your only option is to replay the shot, stroke
   > and distance!
    
    That sounds very fair to me - you're saying basically you've hit the
    ball into DEEP trouble, there are trees everywhere and you'd like a one
    shot penalty near where you are to get you out of trouble. Stroke and
    distance seems a fair way of grading this shot as a whole lot worse
    (which it is) to being stuck under a lone bush.
    
    Mind you, I'd agree that stroke and distance ain't gonna speed up play.
    
    Paul

    
    Great Note!!!!!!!
    
    As a matter of fact, in creating the Thursday Afternoon All Hackers
    League, these are the exact changes we made.  We treat OB and Lost
    balls as if they were in the water.  It speeds up play a great deal.
    
    And when everyone is playing under the same rules, alls fair.....
    
    Shane
    

	I think the stroke and distance for OB and/or lost ball shots is just 
fine the way it is.  I do however, agree with those who think that a lateral 
hazard, like a pond or lake, should be treated just like an O.B. shot.
	My pet peeve in golf rules, is the one about not being able to fix 
spike marks in greens, and foot prints in traps, and divots in fairways.  Just 
doesn't make sense to me, to penalize a golfer, for another idiots poor golf
etiquette on the course, buy not repairing or fixing things he/she should 
have.  If a golfer, while walking on a green, doesn't pick up their feet and 
really scrapes the green bad, why should I or any other golfer, be forced to 
putt thru it?  I hate that rule, although I play by it.  And when I hit my 
ball perfectly down the middle of the fairway, and end up in a huge divot that 
some idiot didn't repair, and then my opponent hits into the rough, but gets a 
10 times better lie, it really irks me.  If you're in the fairway, I feel you 
should be able to take a drop out of the divot.

Beak

    re: .7
    
    	I agree and was woundering when someone would mention the spike
    mark rule...
    
    I don't know the history of it but with more and more people taking
    the game up I'm seeing more and more people who have no idea that
    there are rules to the game...such as fixing spike marks...
    
    I feel that the rule should be used by the PRO's and in all USGA
    amature(sp?) tourneys, and in tourneys at local clubs...but that
    when out just playing we should be allowed to fix them because there
    are new players out there that have no etiquette at all when it comes
    to others on a golf course.
    
    This year alone I've yelled at people on my course when seeing them
    getting ready to hit from obvious out of bounds and they look at you
    as if your crazy...one guy says to me "so what..."
    
    having to put up with the likes of people like that on the golf
    course should mean I should be able to do as .7 suggest....
    
    my 2 cents worth
    
    

    
    re .8
    
    If the guy who's hitting the ball from out-of-bounds isn't bothering
    anyone or slowing up play, then what does it matter to you??? Have you
    appointed yourself the official USGA rule enforcer. If I was the guy and
    I wasn't holding up play or bothering anyone and you yelled at me 2 
    other words besides "So What" come to mind.
    
    Mike

    RE: .9
    
    seeing how the out of bounds and line of his shot takes him
    right acrossed a tee and there are people on the tee it matters
    a lot to me and should to any other sensible person golfer or
    not....and I think it behooves anyone who wants to ensure the
    game be played so we all can enjoy it to take the time to point
    out rules such as out of bounds to people who do not understand
    them....
    
    and if you were that guy with that attitude on my home course
    I can bet you'd be asked not to return again ...
    
    

    
    re: last few
    
    I see people playing from OB all the time.  I agree that it should only
    be an issue if they are playing against you, or are effecting someone
    elses play by being in the way.
    
    Don' lose track of the fact that many people play golf for no other 
    reason than to go out and have a good time.  They may not even know
    and I'm sure don't care what the rules are!!!!!!
    
    One thing I've come to notice in this file from time to time, is some
    thing I see on the course as well.
    
    As people get better at this game the tend to develop in to "Golfers".
    This is not a compliment.  "Golfers" are people that forget that they
    once were beginners and may have made some errors on the course from
    time to time.
    
    Golf is after all a game.  So lighten up when you see someone hit from
    OB, or kick a ball back into the fairway.  It isn't brain surgery!!!!
    
    Shane
    

I'm sorry that I've been too busy to respond to this note.  There is a natural
conflict between playing by the rules of golf & playing quickly.  Most of the
rules of golf are reasonable if you had the luxury of wandering back to where
you hit the ball from, however on Saturday morning you just aren't going to
walk back to the tee to hit a second ball when the first is OB, unplayable, etc.

In my opinion:
1. The OB penalty's severity is out of line when compared to a lateral water
   hazard.  However you know that the OB is there, you know the penalty.  So
   why did you hit it there?
2. If you hit the ball so deep into the woods that the only playable position
   is to move the ball 30yds into the fairway you should be hitting back from
   where your original shot was hit!  

It's interesting, most golfers track their putts, but most don't track their
penalty strokes.  I do and my first goal is to not have any during a round.
Why? Because they are so expensive.  

The practicle realities are:
1. When trying to play fast there isn't time to play by the rules, so everyone
   has invented their own local rules to cover.
2. Many golfers think they are better than they really are.  They haven't
   come to grips with that fact so they feel justified bending the rules
   to suit, rather than facing their own inadequacies.  (I know I started
   double, triple, triple, triple bogey at Sky Meadow last Sunday.  I'm still
   justifying it to myself.  I'm a better golfer than that, but the course
   kicked my butt that day.)
3. The only way to play quickly and to still play by the rules is to play
   Match play.  However there's an American fascination with stroke play.
4. I agree that some "golfers" get too serious, they need to lighten up.
   However "hackers" need to become more aware of the rules and etiquette.
   I say let them have their fun, invent their own rules, shoot 120 if they
   want.  Just play quickly or let me play through.

Just one man's opinions,
Larry

    We need some 'rules for sociable golf': for example, nobody three putts
    the first green; maximum score on any hole = 2 x par (i.e., pick up after
    your 7th stroke on a par 4, and mark it an 8). Anything that will speed
    up play, especially on weekends, in my opinion. Besides, most people
    who are out there on any given Sunday wouldn't know a rule if it came
    up and bit them in the behind; much less, anything about etiquette.
    
    	Frank

    RE. 13 - Larry, your reply must have come in while I was still typing
    mine...amazing similarity!
    
    	Frank

    
    Seems like just about everyone missed my point about the unplayable lie
    in .3  Who said anything about hitting it DEEP in the woods? The point
    is that keeping the point where the ball lies between you and the hole
    will almost always put you deeper in trouble. That doesn't seem like
    much of an option. I don't know what kind of wide open courses you guys 
    play, but if the woods are only a few yards off the fairway, and they're 
    thick and you get a bad bounce off the fairway, you're screwed.
    
    I'm just saying that the penalty shouldn't be worse for that than
    hitting it into an 'unplayable lie' in a lateral water hazard.
    
                                                   -Joe

	The one thing that gets me about those complaining about and O.B. shot 
and not having time to go back to the tee and hit another one, is the fact 
that they shouldn't have to, if they just hit a provisional off the tee to 
begin with.  Same with any ball that has a good possibility of being lost in 
the woods.  Hit a provisional and save youself, your group and all those 
behind you, the time and aggravation, going all the way back to the tee takes.
	I also agree with those that are saying not to cause or create a 
problem when you see someone breaking the rules and they're not bothering 
anyone.  I played a round this summer at the cape with my brother-in-law, and 
we got put together with a 17 year old high scholl golfer, who was actually 
pretty good and his step-father.  Well even though the kid had some talent, he 
was obnoxious and cheated more than anyone I knew.  But since we weren't in a 
match with him, and he wasn't hurting anyone but himself, we said nothing.  
Until we came to the 8th hole, that is.  On this green, the kid had about a 7 
footer for par.  His step father had about a 5 footer for like a 6.  There 
were people waiting out in the fairway for us to finish putting.  The kid 
misses his putt and starts off swearing right away.  His step father then 
prepares to hit his shot and as he is doing this, the kid starts to hit the 7 
footer again.  Bothe balls arrive at the hole at the same time, and the father 
misses.  So I said to the kid, "Hey, have a little courtousy for others when 
you're out here".  And the kid looks at me and says "What"?  To which I 
replied, someone else was putting, and you have no right to distract them, 
never mind that there are also people in the fairway waiting to hit, and your 
practicing after your shot.  Well, he kind of moped around after that, and 
decided not to play the back nine with us, which was just fine.  But the story 
just shows that you shouldn't get on those who don't know or follow the rules, 
if they are not bothering anyone.

Beak

    
    Great note, people! I think i will throw in my thoughts...
    
    Number one, i believe that before anybody sets one foot on a golf
    course, they should have gone to 'golf' school. This means to me that
    they have been taught the rules of golf as well as golf etiquette.
    I would want them to produce a card or something to prove it too...
    
    Number two, there is not nessesarily  a diff between a hacker and a
    golfer except for possibly speed of play...they both have a love for
    the game, hopefully respect and understanding as well.
    
    Number three, the rules are the rules and if you are going to play them
    differently than they are written then this agreed upon ahead of time
    and not as you play.
    
    Number four, courtesy and etiquette on the golf course is of the utmost
    importance, not only to your fellow players but also to the course as
    well. If someone you play with is not aware of some of these
    niceities(?) then it is your responsibility to inform them.
    
    Theres a bit more steam blown off....
    
    GO JAYS, GO HARD!
    
    great white north golf fanatic 

    
    Why are people so concerned with how EVERYONE ELSE plays the game???
    Have they nothing better to do with their time on the golf course???
    
    As long as the way someone plays isn't interfering with someone else or 
    slowing up play, then the way they play is none of your business.
    
    I gurantee I can go to any course at any time (except when a turnement
    is being played) and show you at least 1 golfer who isn't playing
    by the rules. And what can you as another golfer do about??? Not a damn
    thing!!!! In fact on some courses (like the one I played at when I was
    a teen), if a someone said anything like .8 did to that golfer that
    was hitting from the out of bounds, that would probably be the last
    words that guy ever said. All they'd find left of the guy would be
    his golf shoes (unless they were expensive ones).
    
    Mike

    
    re: .19
    
    Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Shane
    

    Please stop saying the 'unplayable lie' rule is unfair.  A hazard
    boundary is always clearly defined.  You therefore know where to drop
    the ball.  If using the 'move to the edge of the woods and take two
    clublengths' rule, all woods would have to be staked.  What a
    nightmare!  
    
    I think in most instances two clublengths is enough to get a playable
    lie.  What you want the rule to do is get you out of all the trouble
    you hit into.  Sorry, but I can't agree with this.
    
    Dan

    I've read the rule book, but golf is a complex game and I sometimes
    forget every little nuance. I am a beginner of sorts (just started
    playing this year again after a 10+ year lay-off).
    
    Most of the etiquette rules are common sense, but there's been times
    when I've forgotten some of those as well. As a beginner, my mind is
    usually busy trying to remember sound swing fundamentals, club
    selection, rules, etiquette. It gets a little over-whelming. Sometimes,
    I forget to check for ball marks or forget to replace a divot.
    Sometimes, I hit from OB, but I make sure I'm not intefering with
    anyone else.
    
    The point is, don't expect everyone to be 100% conversent, and to
    remember to exercise, every rule. *Especially* beginners.
    
    A couple of times, people have said things to me on the golf course,
    like asking if I can speed up play. Many times, people have been
    *rude*, yelling or making snide remarks.
    
    For instance, don't expect me to let you play through if *I* had to
    wait for the group in front of me to clear. If no one is in front, and
    I'm holding you up, then I'll usually *suggest* you play through. But
    if I have to wait in the fairway for the group in front to clear the
    green, you're gonna have to as well, so what's the point in riding my
    butt?
    
    It seems to me like people golf the way they drive in this state sometimes
    (MA, that is). They're rude, pushy, impatient, and frequently
    dangerous...                            

      The problem with the rules of golf today is that they have lost touch
   with the realities of golf in the 90's, specifically in the US where the
   game's popularity has skyrocketed.  The rules are fine for tournament play
   and for days when there aren't many groups out on a course.  With the 
   advent of 2-3 hour waits at the first tee and 5-7 hour rounds, some of
   the rules become ludicrous.  

      Hitting provisionals are fine, but some high handicappers can stand
   up on the tee and repeatedly dump tee shot after tee shot into the woods/OB.
   Returning to the tee to rehit is idiotic when you are marching back to 
   face 1 or 2 groups waiting on the tee for your group.  What do you say?
   Howdy do. Mind if I hit again ...and again....and again? I doubt that would
   go over big with these folks.

      As for people not playing by the rules, demonstrating improper etiquette,
   and taking far too long to play, it's because Golf's governing bodies have
   done a poor job of educating the folks that play the game.  Everyone should
   have easy and cheap access to the rules of golf.  Most people don't make
   the effort to find/get/purchase the rules.  You should get a free rules
   booklet when you buy a set of clubs.  

      Also, the golf folks watch on TV provides a poor example of how the game 
   should be played quickly.  The tournament play we see on TV is the waning 
   moments of the round of the top competitors. Naturally, they are going to 
   take their sweet time over every shot because of the importance (to them) 
   of the shot.  Now we have millions of Jack Nicklaus's, and Nick Faldo's 
   clogging up the fairways and greens around the world.

      Rude people playing the game?  Well, they are more noticeable because
   there are more of them and more frustrations that we face more regularly
   on the courses nowadays.  

      More_players_per_square_foot + exhorbitant_costs =  
                    More_frustrations =  
                            increased_chances_of_confrontations

      Golf today is definitely less enjoyable than it was 10 - 15 years ago.
   One good thing about the sagging NE economy, is that I've noticed a slack
   off on play at local courses. 

-rick

    
    Just a couple more things from the Hacker's point of view:
    
    Most of the people I play with are of equal skill level.  We are
    all capable now of shooting scores in the mod 40's for 9, average
    low 50's, and can blow up to a 60.  
    
    We try our best to play by the rules, (as we understand them), but
    we will also play by our own adopted rules for lost balls and OB.
    We enjoy the game more, and we play faster!!!   
    
    The course I play on has a few fairways that a very tight with woods
    on both sides.  Now I could save the sanctity of the game, and hit
    one ball after another into the woods until I get lucky enough to drop
    on in the fairway or I run out of balls.  Or I could do what I do, go
    up to where the ball entered the woods, briefly look for the ball, (I
    never spend more than a few moments looking for a ball), and then drop
    one, add a stroke and play on.  
    
    Now if you were playing behind me on a crowded Sunday afternoon, which
    way would you prefer I play?
    
    Shane_A_Hack_And_Proud_Of_it
    

    
    There are several things people of all levels can do to speed up 
    play and remain within the rules:
    
    1) Be ready to hit when it is your turn
    
    2) limit or remove practice swings
    
    3) mark your score card and/or count strokes after you get off the
    green, don't stand there talking about the hole, move on so the next
    group can hit up.
    
    4) Go to your ball whether it is your turn to hit or not, don't always
    stay with the guy who is hitting the shot (sometimes this is not safe, 
    use common sense)
    
    5) When putting, don't mark 2-3 footers, putt them. I have seen 4somes
    all mark 2 foot putts, then proceed to decide who is away and one by 
    one place the ball, line it up and putt.
    
    6) When on the green, line up your putt before hand, many times you can
    line up the putt by looking over you ball marker, then when you place
    your ball just do a quick double check.
    
    7) do green cleaning (moving dirt etc) while others are getting ready
    (stay in etiquette though and don't do it while they are putting)
    
    Now for rules I don't like, the only one I really don't like are the
    no fixing spike marks and the delineation between manmade and natural 
    obstructions. The course my league plays at has alot of new small
    trees, well at the beginning of the year alot of the trees had ropes on
    them to help hold them up, if you hit your ball next to a tree with a
    rope on it you got a free lift since it was man made due to the rope.
    
    With regards to the unplayable lie, I feel that if you hit the ball
    into the woods, that's your problem, the unplayable lie rule was not
    designed to get you out of the woods, it was done to let you move the
    ball when it is in an unhittable position so that you could hit it, you
    probably will be in trouble, but that's your fault, you hit it there.
    
    --Bob
    

>    Now for rules I don't like, the only one I really don't like are the
>    no fixing spike marks and the delineation between manmade and natural 
>    obstructions. 

	If memory serves me the article that started this discussion talked
	about tapping down spike marks.  They tried it.  Unfortunately 
	golfers can't agree what is "gently tap down a spike mark".  One
	golf objected to Seve's technique on one particular short putt,
	claiming that he was tapping so hard to make a "trough" to the hole!

	Sometimes I wish I could fix spike marks, but not often enough to
	care.  I do tap down those that I see or accidentally make.  I just
	miss more people could pick up their feet!

	Re: a couple back, regarding hitting balls all day into the woods

	Why not hit a club that can't reach the woods!  ;-)

	Larry

    We don't need rules changes nearly as much as we need to get course
    management to make it clear to players before they tee off that they
    are expected to complete play in X hours (3.5 - 4.5 depending on the
    course).  Slow play is the single biggest deterent to more people
    enjoying the game.  "If I were the boss".. I'd establish a method of
    tracking progress on the course (rangers, electronic check-ins, etc.)
    and make the slow groups catch up or quit.
    
    Personally, I'd like to see the following:
    
    	Five minute limit off the first tee-if you can't get one in play by
    then, pick up.
    
    	Automatic two-putt if you miss the first one.  Three-putts are
    embarrasing.
    
    	Lift and place in traps - they are hard enough as it is.
    
    	Lift and place anywhere - the game is hard enough anyhow.
    
    	If you are on your best-ever round with less than four holes to go,
    you get mulligans on all shots till you finish.

    
     
    Suggesting to hit a provisional for a lost or unplayable ball is
    unrealistic. Nobody expects not to be able to find their ball.
    Check the rules, I'm not sure that you can hit a provisional ball
    if you think it's lost or unplayable, only if you think it may be OB.
    
    Also, haven't you ever seen a situation where a ball is hit, then you
    walk up to where the ball should be and no one can find it? (like
    someone may have picked it up or played it by mistake). This *never*
    happens to the pros, since they have galleries, caddies, spotters etc.
    Do you expect us to play under more difficult 'rules' conditions than 
    the pro's?
    
    Rules have been changed in the past, that's what this note is supposed
    to be about, discussion of rules changes we'd like to see. I suppose
    all the people that criticize other's suggestions would like to see
    us go back to when the rules stated you couldn't repair a ball mark
    until after you putted, meaning you had to chip over you're ball mark
    if it was in the way. There used to be lots of stupid rules like that,
    saying they are the 'rules' doesn't justify anything.
    
                                     -Joe

    
    I see this has hit a hot button with a lot of people...!!!
    
    Please do not forget the "RULES" of the conference when replying.
    I have had to delete several replies due to the wording used...
    
    BTW, you can hit a provisional ball any time you think the ball
    may have gone OB or may be lost... And you MUST declare that it
    is a provisional before you hit it, otherwise it becomes the ball
    in play even if you do find the other ball and it isn't OB...!
    
    Regards
    Gene

    In our golf league we deal with OB's in the following manner. If it
    is obvious after hitting the ball that it is OB then hit another and
    take "stroke and distance" . If you get to where your ball is and you
    discover that it is OB then drop there and take a 2 stroke penalty.
    Since we have a double-par rule no one ends up hitting balls endlessly.
    I personally have pumped 3 in a row OB off the tee, taken my 8, and
    tagged along while everyone else finished the hole. Taking 2 at the
    site of discovering an OB keeps us moving along.
       My personal rule dislike is the one about not fixing spike marks.
    I wear sneakers because I have this problem of scrapping the spikes
    across the green and would rather worry about a slight loss of traction
    than whether I am ripping up the putting surface. I wish other players
    with this problem would also wear sneaks !! Or at least the rubber
    spiked models that are available.
      
    
    Mad Hacker

    The rules don't make slow play. .27 is some good common sense for
    everyone. Hit provisional balls. Play match play - 5 off the tee may
    make you think about actually conceding the hole or picking up if
    you're in a fourball.
    
    If slow play is the issue then people, not the rules cause it.
    Otherwise, frankly I think the rules are just fine.
    
    Somebody mentioned that a penalty drop from a water hazard and a
    penalty drop form in the woods is unfair - the way I view it is that
    the penalty drop is equivalent to an 'imaginaray' shot out of the
    trouble. Ie chipping out of the water, or chipping away from the
    unplayable lie to a position where you can play a real shot from. In
    this way they are entirely equivalent and equally fair.
    
    Now shoot me down!
    
    Paul

	Here's a different slant.  At our league's course ( Passaconoway:
	Litchfield, NH ) the 13th ( used to be the 4th guys ) is a longish
	par 3, with a marsh between the tee and the green.  If you hit anywhere
	into the marsh, the drop area is up by the green, and it only costs
	you 1 stroke.

	Now it probably does help speed up play, but giving someone a free 200
	yards seem sort of, well, unfair.

	Mike

	There should probably be a local rule that covers the 13th; there
	are guys that could hit balls off the tee all afternoon and never
	clear the marsh.  It's a great hole, though.

	My personal favorite at Passaconaway is the 12th; one of the best
	holes in NE.

	Ron

    
    The 14th at PCC is a local rule to help speed up play, especially 
    on weekends, IT IS BY NO MEANS AN OFFICIAL RULE. They use it due
    to the long carry over the swamp turns a somewhay easy shot to a
    hard one just by psychological pressure.
    
    --Bob
    

re:  .27

>>>2) limit or remove practice swings

No way!  I can't imagine just walking up to the ball everytime and popping it!

			-dwight

PS:  The rest of your points I agree with!
    

    re: .19
    
    and that's why we today have 4-6 hour rounds of golf and it's less
    enjoyable than it ever was....the people who don't give a damm about
    anyone else except themselves manage to screw up the game for
    everyone...
    
    

    Re this topic,
    
    I have just found it and really enjoyed the varying opinions,especially
    around the rules and their effect on speed of play.
    
    Firstly let me apologise for my ignorance on club golf in the U.S.,
    as i live and play in Scotland's west coast between Royal Troon
    & Turnberry.
    
    I have played Golf for 20+ years in this area,and although their
    have been some minor rule changes in that time ,none have been
    major time savers.
    The majority of golf played in Scotland is competition golf,in that
    I mean we all play by the R & A rules of golf,Whether just out for
    a bounce match with freinds.The only concessions really made for
    non-medal golf is the <10 inch putt.
    
    Because the majority of golf is played this way we tend to gain
    play speed consistency where,apart from the odd exception,games
    move at the same speed.
    
    I play approx 4 times/week summer & 2/week winter and all my rounds
    will take between 2.75 hours to 3.75 hours depending on weather
    etc.(approx 6,500 - 7,000 yrd courses.)
    I feel this is totally acceptable.
    
    There seems to be a lot of emotion on your side of the pond re
    slow play.I have seen mention of 5 & 6 hour rounds.I don't
    understand how anyone can take that time to play 18 holes.
    Perhaps you can explain - Is there a bar on the course??
    
    BTW the courses Iam talking about are fully booked,8 minute
    delay between tee offs.
    
    Just interesed to understand differences.
    
    ken

    re: .39
    
    "...a bar on the course"
    
    no, but there are courses who allow or do not discourage "coolers"
    on the courses and there are some who bring along a six-pack or two
    and spend their time drinking between shots...of course this tends
    to slow everthing way down....
    
    just my 2 cents worth

    
    re .37
    
>re:  .27
>
>>>>2) limit or remove practice swings
>
>No way!  I can't imagine just walking up to the ball everytime and popping it!
    
    I understand your point, and know alot of people who say they need to
    take a practice swing or two.  I was not refering to that type of 
    person.  Personally, when I stopped taking practice swings, I started 
    playing better, the only time I take them now is 1) putting, 2) when
    the shot is "different", like a half wedge, chip or bunker shot (from 
    outside the bunker of course).
    
    The people I was refering to are the people who take 6 or 7 practice 
    swings, then proceed to hit the ball with a swing that looks nothing
    like the practice swings.  Taking one or 2 to "groove you muscles" so
    to speak is fine.
    
    Hope I did not offend
    
    --Bob
    

    
>>    and that's why we today have 4-6 hour rounds of golf and it's less
>>    enjoyable than it ever was....the people who don't give a damm about
>>    anyone else except themselves manage to screw up the game for
>>    everyone...
  
    I guess you just don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll try to
    explain it to you. First off I suggest you re-read my note .19. I
    explicity said that UNLESS THEY ARE HOLDING UP PLAY, or BOTHERING OTHER
    GOLFERS.
    Second - it's those people who are telling other people how they should 
    play the game that have the selfish attitude. They are only concerned with
    bothering other people who are having a good time. These people
    definetly have an attitude problem. They are pushy little jerks, with
    nothing better to do with their time then harrass other people. Those
    are the kind of people that their attitude makes you want to go up to
    them and just slap them across the face and say, "HEY, Wake up, you're
    not the only one living on this earth". Of course if they were slapped
    they'd probably start crying.
    
    Mike
    

	I have to agree with Mike on this one.  As long as someone is not 
holding up play, or bothering someone else, then you shouldn't complain about
or mention what rules they are breaking.  You play by your rules, and they'll 
play by theirs.  You have no right to force them to play the same rules as you 
do, unless you are playing in a tournament in which you are in competition 
with them.  They may break rules, knowingly or unknowingly, but it's none of 
your business.  And I'm sure their are other things in life, in which you 
break the rules, but noone bothers you for.  Like driving 2 miles an hour over 
the speed limit.  It's against the law, but noone will complain about it, 
unless you endanger someone by it.  So lighten up and enjoy your game of golf, 
by not letting others get to you.

Beak

    re: last two
    
    I agree 100% with what you both say, I never in any of my reply's
    said anything about telling others how to play the game. What I did say
    I forgot which reply was that it ALL OUR responsibility to point out
    when someone we are playing with doesn't know or breaks rules because
    of lack of knowledge. Education is the best way to help the people
    who are trying to play the game and it in the end makes it more
    enjoyable for everyone.  
    
    What I also said and what I think your forgetting is that the person
    I was telling "...your out of bounds" was hitting over a tee
    that was full of people and being a person who has no problem speaking
    when I see something that is dangerous or just not right I'll continue
    to do that...
    
    If some want to interpert that as tell others "...how to play"
    then that's their problem...
    
    end of rathole
    

    
    I'll agree with you, and even stand behind you for telling some jerk
    who's hitting a ball from out-of-bounds over a crowd of people. 
    Howvever when the first note that was entered about the guy hitting
    from out-of-bounds, it was not clear that the guy was hitting over a
    crowd of people. And I will agree with you that you should tell people
    you're playing with about the rules. But this falls into the catagory
    of bothering people, which in this case is you because you're playing
    with him.
    
    Personally I play by the rules when ever possible. I get more enjoyment
    out of the game that way. I don't force the rules on the people I'm
    playing with though. I will point out the rules to them, but they can
    play the way they want. It dosn't bother me any.
    
    Mike

    I guess that there must be a greater number of really good golfers
    in Scotland. Most of the slow play comes from so-many golfers taking
    so many shots. When I play in the low 80's I get around the course
    much faster than when I shoot a 105. There are always people on the
    course who have no idea how to play and their "buddies" bring them
    out during prime time to clog the course. Or there is a 50-man
    company outing and everyone plays once-or-twice a year. It seems like
    there is always something like this going on. There is really no way to
    address this with rules. We just need golf to become unpopular again
    and the courses will be empty
    
    My two cents-
    Mad Hacker
    

    Slow play  has  been beaten  to  dead, and I for one get upset when I
    play behind a  slow  group,  and  yes,  there  are  rules  that could
    slow/speed up play, BUT,  and  is  a  big  but, everyone has the same
    right to play any public course at any time they want.
    
    I remember when I  started  playing and I was very happy with a score
    below 110. I was always trying to play  fast,  but sometimes you just
    can't when you keep on slicing every  single  tee shot and spend time
    looking for the ball.  I will guess that most of the people that note
    here have done something to improve their game, but there will always
    be those that are happy playing once every month for  the  fun  of it
    and want to go and have a nice time and consider  themselves  with as
    much right as a scratch golfer to play any course at any  time, and I
    can't argue about it.
    
    But at the same time,  I  hope  I  don't find them in front of me too
    often.
    
    Tavo

    I agree totally Tavo !! There are little things that we can do to 
    speed up play but it will only save a few minutes a round. Sure, I 
    can get around in 3 hours if I hit every ball in the fairway, make
    every putt, and walk as fast as I can between every shot but that
    isn"t realistic. If we play in 4.5 hours or less then it is a good
    round. I spent a couple of years hacking around the course, wasting
    time looking for balls that will never be found, and still do on
    occaision so I have sympathy for those just starting out. I was just
    offering my concept of why it takes so long to play these days.
    
    Mad Hacker
    

    I think there's a SLOW PLAY topic somewhere in this conference that
    dates back a couple of years. Obviously, this is a hot button for just
    about everyone. I have to take exception to the idea that just because
    you paid your way onto the course, you're entitled to take as much time
    as you like, to enjoy yourself to the fullest: responsible golf course
    management recognize that it's important that *everyone* enjoy
    themselves, and it's no fun for every group that has to follow a bunch
    of dawdlers who can't keep the ball in play, spend five or ten minutes
    a hole searching for lost balls, and never, but NEVER, think of letting
    you play through. You don't have to be a good golfer to play at a good
    pace. And I don't mind being behind a group of beginners, if they keep
    moving. I mean, I certainly put my share into the deep underbrush, and
    have had a very tough time staying out of the triple-digit scores the
    last few times out. Lately, though, the problem seems to have gotten
    a lot worse, and playing on public courses on weekends has become quite
    an onerous experience. What's really annoying is seeing someone getting
    a lesson from his/her partner, as you stand there waiting to hit your
    next shot.
    
    Anyway, on the topic of when/if you should apprise someone of the rules
    of golf: I generally keep my mouth shut, unless it's someone I know
    well, and want to give them information that might come in handy
    someday. For example, my son-in-law, who's a pretty good natural
    golfer (very unorthodox swing, but decent results), was constantly
    grounding his club in sand traps. For his own information, I told him
    that if he was playing in a tournament, where the rules were enforced,
    that would cost him strokes. Since he and I play only for fun, it made
    no difference to me what he did, but I thought he should know that
    rule.
    
    		Frank

    
    I hate it when I get put in with a group that if they hit a bad ball,
    they'll drop or tee up another one.
    
    I'll never play a second ball just cuz I couldn't get past the red
    tees!
    

    a good number of courses are going to time stamping tickets and they
    have a set time it should take you to finish 9 holes, if you don't your
    asked to leave. In one of this months golf mag. there was mention of a
    course where they time stamp, have a set time that you should finish
    4 holes, 9 holes, etc. They have good enforcement and the results has
    been faster play on the course and a 20% increase in revenues(sp?)
    showing to my satisfaction that 99% of the golfers would rather go
    out and have a good time in a reasonable amount of time and that
    they will keep returning to the courses that enforce a " reasonable
    time to play a round of golf..."
    
    my 2 cents worth

	re .52

	But how do they handle the case of my fourswome waiting on every shot
	behind slow players, and then being asked to leave?

    
    re .53
    
    Obviously they're going to have to control that. I think they will just
    kick out the first group that is playing slow, then let the others
    behind them go, and hope they catch up. At the next check point if the
    group that was second in the line is still playing slow, then they kick
    them out too. It will get tricky, but it can be done.
    
    To all the slow players, why don't you let the faster players play
    through???? You can play as slow as you want, just don't slow everyone
    elses game down too.
    
    The question I have is what people consider to be slow play. I hear
    people saying here that 4.5 hours is slow. What kind of a course are
    you playing on (par 3). 4 - 4.5 hours is about average for a normal
    size golf course. It dosn't matter how good the management of a course
    is, when there are other people on the course, they will slow you down. 
    When the course isn't crowded, it should take about 3.5 - 4 hours. I
    walk and carry my clubs, and I've yet to finish under 3.5 hours, and
    I'll bet that less then 20% of the people here can keep up with me if
    the course isn't crowded and we don't have to wait.
    
    Mike

    I would have to assume that in the article I quoted this is what they
    mean by enforcement....a good marshall knows what/who is holding up a
    course and what the policy is to handle it...
    
    example:
    
    	recently played in PRO-DAYS Tourney at a local course, had the
    marshall approach us on 10th tee and tell us that the foursome in
    front of us had 1 1/2 holes open in front of them and had already
    been warned and had been told to let the group behind play through...
    
    the two groups that had been behind them on the front 9 had stopped
    at lunch counter after 9 so we ended up behind them...the marshall
    being aware of what was happening told us what I wrote in previous par.
    then proceeded to go down to them and speak to them...the results
    was we played through them on 11th tee and had no problems...
    
    so in summary I assume a good enforcement program with good marshalling
    avoids the situation you give in your note...but you never know...
    
    

    i have played a few times in maryland and they time foursomes.
    after six holes the marshall tells you that you are so many minutes
    ahead or behind where you should be.  if you aren't 'caught up'
    by the 9th hole, you are refunded half your money and sent
    packing.  works fine.  so well in fact, that this curse is
    going to six-somes!  my brother hasn't played the course since
    the sixsomes went into effect but i bet it works.
    
    my biggest beef with slow play is 'good' golfers who bitch and
    moan about slow players but are slow themselves.  some golfers
    think that their low handicaps make them immune to the rules
    of speedy play.  waiting behind arnold palmer is still waiting.
    
    black nicklaus

     I played the front 9 at Crumpin-Fox in a cart at 5 pm on a weekday a
    few weeks ago with our Pro. Just the 2 of us, and although neither of
    us played great, it took an hour and 5 min. Great time of night to play
    - very pretty, and no one was out there.
     A few notes back there was a comment about how fast play moves in
    Scotland, and it's true that IMHO the Scots and Irish play a lot faster
    than we do. However, the courses over there are, on average, just as
    hard or harder. People seemed to me to be more courteous too. What are
    we doing wrong ?
    
    --Jack

    re.54 Certainly different perceptions! Might be interesting to see what
    people do think 'slow play' is...
    
    4.5 hours, I consider very slow (but not unexepected on public
    courses).
    4 hours - slow
    3.5 hours - reasonable
    
    Mind you, if playing foursomes then I expect less than 3 hours. 
    
    Paul

    
    
    Im confused by you standards of slow...???
    
    doesn't a Pro-Tourney let 3-4somes off at 7-8 minute 
    
    intervals and it takes them 4-41/2 hours.. and they're
    
    hitting (in a foursome) about 80 shots less than the 
    
    average 4some at my course...???
                 
    
    jus mi 2 sense
    
    Bill
                    

>>    3.5 hours - reasonable
    
>>    Mind you, if playing foursomes then I expect less than 3 hours. 
    
    Thats absurd!!!!!
    
    Assuming you're playing with 3 other golfers and you all shoot exactly
    90. (Which by the way is under average for 4 golfers). That's a total
    of 360 shots. If it takes you 3 hours to play, that means that you are
    averaging a shot every 30 seconds. That's pretty fast for 4 people.
    I suppose that if you don't waste anytime to look for balls, or if
    you're one of those golfers that hits only down the middle, or you
    walk about 8mph, then it might be possible. But for the average 4some
    to play in 3 hours or less, I don't think so.
    
    Mike

    The problem is that some people think they are on the pro tour and take
    abnormal time lining up putts and take practice swings and then stand
    over the ball before they hit etc.. Also they walk like they are going
    to a funeral when they are not doing well. A chain is only as good as
    it's weakest link.
    
    The solution is good marshalling and a raise in standards for weekend
    golf. Golf is suppose to be one of the things you you do that day not
    the only thing and eighteen holes should be a maximum of four and a
    half hours.
    
    

    
    Reply - 
    	
    	Hi,
    
    	Rules I'd like to see changed...
    
    	1. Fix spike marks
    	2. Rake and place (if needed) fairway bunkers
    	3. Rake and place any trap you rolled into (if needed)
    	4. Free drop from unaturally poor fairway conditions
    	5. Allowance on two club length rule if tee-box is poor (no grass)
    	6. 50, 100, 200, 250 yard markers on every hole (very visable)
    	7. Bell or similar on all blind holes, to OK next groups approach.
    	8. Players must putt out. (accompany's fix spike mark rule) accept
    	   when greens are unusually soggy.
    	9. Keep pace with group in front of you, or buy a round for
    	   everyone behind you that has suffered your lack of
    	   consideration.
    	10. Practice at the range.
    
    	
    	Walta
    
    	

    >doesn't a Pro-Tourney let 3-4somes off at 7-8 minute 
               -----------
    >intervals and it takes them 4-41/2 hours.. and they're
    
    That's essentially the root cause of the problem isn't it! Faldo went
    round in 4.5, so it's fine for us...
    
    I AM serious about less than 3 hours for a foursome. Don't forget this
    is where you play alternate shots. So there are only 2 balls in play.
    This speeds up play no end, time can be saved due to only 2 sets of
    practice swings and by the non-hitting pair carrying on ahead towards
    the landing area in all the wasted time while people are picking up
    their tee, putting the clubs away, etc.
    
    Those times are what I consider 'normal' (in England) - of course,
    particularly at public courses, the 4-4.5 limit is common - that
    doesn't make it reasonable though!
    
    Paul
                                           

    
    re: .61
    
    Could you please clarify your statement?
    
    ".....a raise in standards for weekend golf."
    
    
     Shane
    

Yes, 4.5 hours is considered "respectable" by US standards.

But it is a pitiful standard. I'm not sure why our (US) pace of play has 
deteriorated so badly, but televised golf--as many have already 
pointed out--is the likely culprit.

A round played in under 4 hours by a foursome (4 balls in play) is 
hardly rushing it. One morning at our club, the usual weekend crowd 
was discouraged by a persistent drizzle. Six of us decided to brave 
the elements (another American weakness--foul weather; that day would 
have been considered pretty good by Scottish standards) and embarked 
together on foot, as always. The course was empty. All of us are single-digit 
handicappers, but three of these guys are notoriously slow, so a long 
round seemed likely. Maybe the inhospitable conditions discouraged 
some of the lengthy routines ordinarily followed religiously by these 
slower players, maybe it was just the sense that we were playing as a 
sixsome that subconsciously caused them to cut their routines short, 
but we discovered that we arrived at the 19th hole 3.5 hours later. 
All expressed surprise because we never felt like we were 
hurrying--just playing at a comfortable, enjoyable pace. 

How did this happen? I can't say for sure, but it was a revelation. My 
guess is that the usual formalism of the weekend foursome, with its 
naussau and side bets, went out the window. We all had individual bets 
going, but there was a looseness to it all. We played when we were 
ready, instead of deferring the the "away" man (except on the green) 
as strict matchplay dictates. 

It was one of the more enjoyable round in memory.

     Hitting when you're ready helps a LOT (!!) to speed up play.
    
    --JV

    
    
    Changes:
    
    *    You can't play Stow North unless you have a 20 or less USGA.
    
    *    You get your $ back if the 5 to 9 group is more than
                         2:15 on the front nine (is happening) on WE's.
    
    *    Lost ball should be stroke only, not distance, and dropped per
                       where the foursome agrees.
    
    *    No carts, bring back CADDIES!!
            (handicapped golfers excluded)
    *    Get off the green PRONTO!! 
    
    *    Agree with drop and smooth on public courses in bunkers.
                    (I'm lousy out of the traps)
    
    *    Agree with repair spike marks.
    
    *    No OB unless near a road, etc.
    
    *    There are two types of golf : fun and serious.
                 For fun golfers, play after 2:00PM
                 
    *    90% of the fun of golf is scoring well, and anybody
                that says different should play at 3:00.
            and scoring well is relative, if a 95 shooter breaks
                 90 for the first time, watch him be very serious the
                  next time out!! as it should be.
    
    *    My two cents,
         Ang
    
                                    
    
                 
    

	One thing that I don't understand is how EVERYONE complains
	about slow play.  If we're ALL complaining about slow play
	then who the heck is playing slow??  It sure ain't US, right?

	I personally think the idea of marshalls timing groups is the
	ONLY solution.  One club in Myrtle beach puts a flag on your
	cart if your group doesn't keep up with the alloted time (I think
	it's 13 minutes/hole which comes out to approx 4 hours/18 holes).
	You get that one warning and if you don't play faster, you're 
	off the course at the turn.

	But what about if you join a group and THEY play slow (of course
	it's the OTHERS again, not US!!) ??  

	Now, I know that I don't play slow - so who out there is going
	to admit that it's THEM...

    
    re .68
    
    It only takes one slow person to kill the course. In our league we
    have a couple of notoriously slow players, one of these has a fast 
    player for a partner.  When you pair up with them you are going to
    be slow, why, because you can only go as fast as the slowest player.
    My partner and I can play the 9 (league) in about 1 hr 20 minutes 
    given nobody infront of us, when we played this team it took about
    2 hrs 20 minutes and nobody was infront of us after 1 1/2 holes.
    
    In the league finals the other day we played 18 with two other guys
    in just under 4 hours, this was on a windy course that included long
    walk from 9th green to 10th tee and a clubhouse bathroom break and
    to buy a soda and a 5 minute wait on the 10th tee.
    
    It can be done quickly, but 1 slow person will bring you down.
    
    --Bob
    

    I guess that I'm the slowest walker around. With nobody in front of
    me, I can get aound the front nine at my home course in 1.5 hours.
    I don't enjoy walking as fast as I can between every shot but do
    maintain about a 3 mph pace. I don't take practice swings, I don't
    have a complicated pre-shot routine, I think about what I want to
    do as I walk towards the ball, I leave the flag in (no penalty assesed)
    to get off the green faster. I cant' think of any way to get faster
    without riding in a cart. How fast do you guys walk ????????????????
        About play in Scotland, one of my customers goes to Scotland every
    year for two weeks of golf. He says that the pace of play is very
    fast compared to U.S. courses.
    
    Mad Hacker

    re: .64
    Weekend golf takes longer today then it took 4 to 5 years ago to play
    18 holes. It takes from 4.5 to 6.0 today when it used to take 4 to 5
    hours. So we need to raise the standards to faster playing so that the
    game can be enjoyed rather than have it be a day long excursion in
    waiting.

    
    
    	How about jog golf ???
    
    	You must at least trot to your next shot. If for health/other 
    	reasons you can't... then you take a cart.
    
    	It would be interesting to see how much time would be saved. A 
    	friend and I played 9 at lunchtime jogging to our shots...
    	Seeing a golf course of people hurrying up the fairways would
    	be a pleasant sight :)
    
    	Walta

	I'm a fast player.  Some of the guys I play with can play slow.
	Part of the problem is pre-shot routine.  But the other part is
	not being productive while waiting.  You can do a lot of studying
	of putts, picking clubs, taking practice swings while waiting your
	turn.

	I think another factor influencing slow play is that US courses are
	packed.  All it takes is one person having a difficult round, hitting
	balls in the woods, etc. (we all have those days) to slow down your
	group.  That slows down the pace of the whole course.

	Most marshalls are a waste either they don't do anything, or they
	just yell at players to play faster.  If they paid more attention
	and had faster groups play through slower groups the whole course
	would move faster.  (Once when I was at Pebble Beach the marshall
	controlled the course wonderfully.  We played through one group,
	I was a twosome play through about 8).  The course moved and we
	all had an enjoyable and fast day on a tough course.

	Betting, serious matches, and playing "honors" also dramatically
	slow down the round.

	Larry

    looks like from the replys to this note we should approach the
    ruling bodies in golf for a rule on slow play.... :^)