Conference 7.286::golf

Gene,
	Do you know where it's being played?  Maybe a dumb question, but I 
don't know.

Beak

    
    	Shoal Creek Ala. ...!? Aug 9-12...
    

    
    Shoal Creek was designed by Nicklaus and favours the golfer
    who fades the ball eg. in 1984 when it was last held at Shoal Creek,
    Trevino won.
    
    Who is the best fader of a golf ball in the game at the moment ?
    
    Faldo !
    
    ps. the tournament runs from Aug 5-9                        
    
    Derek.
    

    
    Aug 5-9...? that is a Sunday through Thursday...!
    
    I beleive I was correct in that the PGA is from Aug 9-12...
    
    Anybody confirm this?
    
    Gene

    
    Apologies Gene,
                   
          you are correct, I'm talking rubbish, it is the 9th-12th.

                              Derek.

    I wonder who's going to sponsor TV ???
    
    Perhaps, it will not be televised.
    
    
    My pick, Stewart....I love his Pants.
    
    Jim

    I should probably start a new note or this but I'm going to pose the
    following question....
    
    
    
    Do you think it is right for the PGA to consider sights for their
    championship without looking at the policies of the club concerning
    memberships?
    
    Personally I would have thought that they would look at things such as
    this.  I don't blame the sponsors for pulling out their ads from the
    telecast...
    
    What are your (collective) thoughts?
    
    Peter

    
    RE: .7 and .8
    
    Please fill in those of us that don't know what is going on... ;-)
    
    Thanks
    Gene

    	Many TV sponsers are pulling theie ads from the PGA tournament
    due to the fact that Shoal Creek doesn't have any black members. Now
    this could be simply because blacks haven't attempted to become members
    but unfortunately the membership chairman or whomever, has stated that
    SC picks who they want, ie, no blacks. 
    	The sponsers don't wish to be associated with a club that is
    discriminatory.......

    Well then, what about Augusta National?  That club has had some questionable
  policies regarding minorities too.

    My opinion?  I hope Jim Thorpe or Calvin Peete wins the tournament!

-rick

    This reponse from some sponsors is new to major c'ship golf, i think.
    
    Personally, i think it would be good for the game if such
    discrimination was brought out into the open. 
    Interestingly, most great courses in the world would be affected
    by this. Certainly Augusta National is hardly likely to admit black
    members, given its history...Would the TV companies pull out of
    televising the Masters?....Hardly.
    
    Over here in Ireland discrimination came into the news when a local
    ( Dublin ) club was refused an extension of a bar licence because
    women were discriminated in the club. They were not allowed to become
    full members.
    I think that most of the so called great clubs of the world are guilty of
    discrimination of various degrees.

    martin

     Regrettably, .12 is probably right. If people want to belong to those
    places, it's o.k. by me - I just like to play 'em, not endorse their
    policies.  I think that because it's in Alabama Shoal Creek is taking
    exceptional heat, although the sponsors are doing the right thing in
    withdrawing. No question that Augusta has prohibitive practices, along
    with lots of others, and if TV had any guts, they'd all boycott the
    tournament. This, however, ain't gonna happen.
    
    Jack.

    Ref .13
    
    Are the sponsors doing the right thing by boycotting the PGA. The only
    people getting hurt in this process are the networks. The REAL
    organization to boycottt is the PGA of America. What will be most 
    interesting is whether Anheuser Busch will withdraw there sponsorship 
    from the tourney in Williamsburg VA. The same holds true for all the
    other advertisers buying TV time that also have their name in front of
    a tourney. i.e. Buick, GTE, Kemper, etc.
    
    I'm all for pulling out of their advertising, but the Corporations must
    maintain consistency and remove their names from Tour events. I would
    be very suprised if this happens. Deane Beamon must be a little
    concerned and rightfully so. 
    
    Actually a Major with NO commercials sounds very exciting to me. 
    
    
    Ken_the_original_Golf_Couch_Potato

       I wonder if all the PGA players that boycott the Sun City
    Challenge because of South Africa's policies will also boycott
    the PGA championship !!
    
    Really Mad Hacker

    One of the most effective means of teaching and influencing is by setting 
    an example - not stirring passions.  If the PGA believes that private 
    clubs should not discriminate, then do not allow Club Professionals 
    membership in the PGA if they work in such organizations.  Do not let
    those organizations sell PGA licensed products, etc.  Quiet, but
    effective.
    
    However, what is the discrimination that you wish to fight?  Is it 
    acceptable for a club in Scotland to admit only Catholics?  Is it
    proper that the poor not be allowed in any of the clubs?  What about
    the many clubs in USA that do not allow Jews?  I am certain that if 
    we go on, we could find many other cases of discrimination in golf
    clubs.  In Southern California there are clubs that allow only
    Japanese.  What about clubs with residency requirements?  Many clubs
    do not allow women as members in their own right, but only as family
    members.
    
    While we may not agree with these policies, is the PGA the proper
    organization.  If so, which policies will we oppose?  I'm not certain
    about all of my feelings - I believe this is a difficult question.
    
    Big Mac

    re:.17
    I agree with Big Mac on this ( for once anyway ).
    I also think that what has been unearthed in this controversy is the 
    reality of Golf as a club game.
    Golf clubs are the modern day extension of the 19th century phenomenon
    of Gentlemans clubs.
    This means that golf clubs are by nature snob establishments. Hence
    discrimination. I hate to say this about the game i love most of
    all, but it is the truth.....'nuff said.
    
    I saw some of the TV coverage from the US on the Shoal Creek issue.
    They interviewed a Rev Woods ( i think ) who is leading the Black
    Civil Rights protest, and Jack Burke Jnr who is president of Champions
    CC in Houston. The discussion was lively, with Jack Burke saying
    that there was no discrimination in Champions , and that no Black
    man or woman has ever applied for membership there. He also invited
    Rev Woods to come to Houston where he would give him a lesson.
    Rev Woods made the comment that he disagreed with Burke on what
    Champions' policy is. He said that he'd love to go for the lesson
    and that Golf as a game could be an excellent way of bridging the
    discrimination barrier.
    Interesting...I await developments.
    
    Martin O'G
    
    

    
    Lee Trevino may not play, since his sponsor, Toyota, has withdrawn 
    support, Trevino feels he should follow them.
    
    I also saw a short article that mentioned that some course, sorry
    forget name/location, has offered there club to host the PGA.
    
    --Bob
    

    I also saw the interview on TV with Jackie Burke and the Rev. I wanted
    to jump thru the screen and slap Chris Berman. Chris wasn't playing
    moderator he was trying to play agitator. He was trying to get Jack
    Burke to commit to walking the streets of Houston's black neighborhoods
    and soliciting memberships. Jack was trying to maintain and convince
    Chris NO club in America is going to pick every third person thru the
    gates at Wendy's and make them a member. Jack did say ther doors are
    open and anyone is welcome to make application.
    
    I think Chris Berman wanted a conflict between Burke and the Rev, that
    Burke just wasn't willing to enter.
    
    The club that offered to hold the PGA was the Concord in NY's
    Catskills.
    
    Lee Trevino did commit to playing in the PGA in an interview with ESPN
    on Sunday. He said "I'm a player not a politician" and said he'd be
    there.
    
    
    Ken

    Greg Norman (what the heck, he's overdue...)
    
    As for the current uproar about the membership policies at clubs
    chosen for PGA events, that too is long overdue. Does anyone remember
    the hue and cry that ensued when Peter Dobereiner's article about The
    Country Club was published shortly before the '88 US Open? Dobereiner
    used irony to depict the anti-Irish bigotry that existed at the
    Brookline club, which was formed by Boston Brahmins, who allowed Paddy
    to take care of the grounds, but not to use them. Unfortunately, a lot
    of Boston Irish misunderstood the article, totally missing the ironic
    slant he took, and attacked Dobereiner himself for being an anti-Irish
    bigot! Sigh...
    

    So why the lack of entries to this note? We ARE talking about the
    fourth major aren't we....he says tongue_in_cheek.
    
    Or maybe it's because the majority aren't prepared to back anyone other
    than NF, surely not!!
    
    Well I'm not...so go Nick go!! So the grand slam wasn't done this year 
    but three out of four and a top three finish ain't bad!!
    
    
    Phil.
    
     
    
    

     I LOVE (!!) all this "Rule Britannia" mentality and everyone jumping
    on the bandwagon in the U.K. A few years ago no one in England could
    break an egg (only a few Scots or Irishmen were doing anything in Golf)
    and Nick Faldo was "Nick Foldo" in the British press. He was rumored to
    have every character disorder known to man and was vilified by his
    countrymen and the press. All of a sudden everyone realized "Hey, this
    cat can PLAY" and he's almost as popular as tabloid photos of Lady Di.
     As far as I'm concerned, the guy always could play, and I hope he has
    continued success (even if he Does have the personality of a bowl of
    porridge). It's fun to watch great players on tough courses. Let me
    just add this, however, as soon as he gasses a few three footers for
    some cash or (gasp) in an International competition, the press over
    there will be all over his case like white on rice and cold on ice.
    
    __Jack (who has always wanted to play Hoylake...)

    Jack,
    
    
    Thanks for the little light relief, but a few points for you to
    consider.
    
    I don't think anyone is intentionally jumping on the bandwagon over
    here. It's just nice to know we all have a real master golfer who is
    beyond doubt the best in the world right now. 
    
    Sure a few years back there weren't that many superstars from these
    shores, it's not true to say there was nobody. The tide has changed and
    the European Tour now has some great players on its books.
    
    SInce when does anybody get taken in by all they read in the press? 
    It's there job to make headlines and perhaps in reality they made Faldo
    out to be a bad guy. Plus how many times do you get to see other
    European tournaments with him playing other than the majors when his
    concentration is at its peak? I guess you don't get to see the lighter
    side of his character which would disprove your theory of his
    personality being akin to a bowl of porridge.
    
    Jack..remember you can't judge a book by its cover OR the first few
    pages.
    
    
    Phil.
    
    
    

    	Saw in USA Today that 3 local Pros have qualified.   Mike San
    Fillipo of Sky Meadow,  and Kirk Hanefield and Dana Quigley from
    two Mass courses, don't remember which ones. Good luck to them!

	I'll go with Mike Reid to win the PGA Championship. 

	He'll be followed closely by Tom Kite and Curtis Strange.


Beak

    
    Bart Simpson?????????
    
    On the serious side: Payne Steward is chomping at the bit.
    
    I think he'll take it this time.
    
    Dave

    
    Faldo from Woosnam.
    
    As for moody Scott Hoch, who claims Nick Faldo is the most unpopular
    man in golf, maybe he can learn a thing or two, from Nick.
    
    John. 

    
    
    
    
    	
    
    Nick Faldo		-13
    Greg Norman		-10
    Hale Irwin		-8
    Tom Kite		-8
    McDonald		-8
    Payne Stewart	-7
    Peter Jacobson	-7
    
    
    	Hell    if I'm going to guess....  might as well go for it !  :)
    
    
    	Walta

         As my attitude withers this year, so does my concern over
    who wins anything on the pro tour. So my pick is WHO CARES !!!

    Re:               <<< Note 1030.32 by RAYBOK::COOPER "MAD HACKER" >>>

    Come on,  Mad  Hacker,  it's  only  August!   My attitude only starts
    withering when there  are no leaves in the trees and it gets below 40
    degrees.
    
    But getting back to the topic:
    
    This is Faldo's year, and it will be ever greater if he wins the PGA,
    so I will jump 100  feet  it he makes it, but......  this time is too
    much and he will loose on the back nine on Sunday to...
    

                                "HAPPY MEX"
                                Lee Trevino!!!!!!!

    Hey Tavo, not my golf attitude !! Just my attitude towards the
    pros. Okay, so I will make a pick !!! 
    
    LANNY WADKINS 
    
    Mad Hacker

             Norman
             Faldo
             Nicklaus
             BAllesteros
             Stewart




ace

My sentimental favorite:  Lee Trevino.  Size years ago we watched him win the
PGA, between contractions while my wife was in labor at the hospital.  

    
    	I've got 10 pounds riding on wee Fred Couples @25-1, so I'm hoping
    that he does me a favour. I have a bad feeling that my usual luck's
    going to have the last say and that some other American whom I've never
    heard of (Billy-Ray Larry Sluman Simpson Hoch or somebody like that)
    will fly up from nowhere. Don't think Faldo'll be far away (him and
    Fanny and his bags of natural charisma).
    
    John A.

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Note 1047.0               {where are the PGA guesses ?}                3 replies
VICKI::PWILLIAMS                                       1 line   9-AUG-1990 13:25
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Note 1047.1               {where are the PGA guesses ?}                   1 of 3
VICKI::PWILLIAMS                                       1 line   9-AUG-1990 13:27
                                 -< guess #1 >-
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    Let me be the 1st to say SHARK !

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Note 1047.2               {where are the PGA guesses ?}                   2 of 3
DUGGAN::DIAZ "Tavo, The Latin Putter"                 4 lines   9-AUG-1990 13:33
                                   -< 1030 >-
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    Re:                     <<< Note 1047.1 by VICKI::PWILLIAMS >>>

All you have to do is a quick "DIR" command to see that there are already
many PGA winner guesses in note 1030 (and many of them for Norman!)

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Note 1047.3               {where are the PGA guesses ?}                   3 of 3
AIMHI::CORRIGAN                                       6 lines   9-AUG-1990 13:33
                              -< Hellooooooo.... >-
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    Phil,
    
    Get that pipe outta' your mouth and get a clue. Note 1030.
    
    Joe

    I just hope it is an American! 

    Interesting picture in this morning's Boston Globe of 3 players
    warming up on the practice tee for the PGA practice round. It talks
    about the winning chances of 2 of the players, Seve Ballesteros
    and Nick Faldo! No mention was made of the last member of the
    threesome ... Tom Watson!!
    
    Geez, American golfers fading from the sports page - has any European
    gone "back to the future"?? ;-)                                      
    
    Eric

    Seve???
    
    
    His chances are None and none
    
    
    Ted

    Sheesh, this is a tough bunch. OK I blew it. Now lighten up.

    Re:                   <<< Note 1030.44 by WFOV12::GUGLIELMO_T >>>

>   Seve???
>   
>   His chances are None and none

After a  5  over  yesterday I will say so.  I got home in time to see the
last hour on ESPN.  Did you see him smashing his club on the ground after
missing one green?   Boy,  that  tough  rough is getting into everybody's
nerves!!

I saw players chosing to chip out  with  a  wedge  after  their  tee shot
landed in the rough a few feet from  the fairway, since they knew that no
other club would get the ball out!!!

I visit my in-laws about once a year in  Florida  and  play in their club
with  bermuda  grass  and  I  get so frustrated with it  that  I  somehow
understand these guys.

Let see who survives today.  My bet, Trevino, is also 5  or  6 over so he
is now a looooong shot.

Tavo

    OOne thing I can sy about Seve after he hit the shot into the rough
    and slammed his club he made a great chip out too abot 3 feet and
    saved par. Great shot.
    
    Ted

    Re:                   <<< Note 1030.47 by WFOV11::GUGLIELMO_T >>>

>   OOne thing I can sy about Seve after he hit the shot into the rough
>   and slammed his club he made a great chip out too abot 3 feet and
>   saved par. Great shot.

    That's what  happens  when  you try to watch the news and golf at the
    same time, you  miss  the  good  shots.    I  guess  I  should  get a
    picture-on-picture TV set.
    
    Getting back to Seve,  it has been said so many times that he is such
    a great  shot maker, that I wonder if he plays too aggressive knowing
    that he can  save  the  hole with one of his great shots.  Who knows,
    but lately his game hasn't given him many victories.  In any case, he
    still is one of my favourites.
    
    Tavo

    
    Could someone type in the 1st rd & 2nd rd (when completed) scores as
    we get them a day late and I still don't know who's doing well.
    
                           Thanks in advance,
                                              Derek.

    
    Went home at lunch today around 1:00. The Shark is attacking!! He
    birdied 2 out of the three holes I saw and was putting for eagle
    as I left. I think he was 2 over. Bobby Wadkins crapped the bed
    75, I think. Larry Mize is at -2. Of course by the time we get home
    this will have changed.
    
    Joe

    
    "Bobby Wadkins crapped the bed..."
    
    I assume (hope!) that's one of those little differences between US
    english and British english ;-)

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Note 1046.0               BERMUDA GRASS  at Shoal Creek                  1 reply
RAYBOK::COOPER "MAD HACKER"                          12 lines  10-AUG-1990 11:02
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         One of the courses that I play at has Bermuda grass rough
    and I don't know if they ever mow it !! Sometimes you can't even 
    find your ball. I have found though, that my 7-wood does a really
    good job of extricating the ball when it is nestled down in that
    stuff. There probably aren't any pros that carry a 7-wood and every
    shot they take is usually at the green so I can see how they must
    be getting pretty frustrated trying to hit from the hay !!
       I'm really crying for them though !! Gee, all the loot they
    haul home and they want to whine because the course is to tough !
    Keep it in the fairway guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Mad Hacker

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Note 1046.1               BERMUDA GRASS  at Shoal Creek                   1 of 1
WOODRO::GORDON                                         1 line  10-AUG-1990 12:15
                   -< so...don't hit it in the rough!!!^;) >-
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Note 1048.0             PGA -- OR TROUBLE WITH THE ROUGH
                1 reply
27094::SANDLER                                       19 lines  13-AUG-1990 09:02
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	WELL, WHAT'D YOU THINK.  GRADY DESERVES ALL THE CREDIT FOR SHOOTING
	SIX UNDER..  HAVE TO FEEL SORRY FOR FREDDIE COUPLES, 4 BOGIES, HAS
	TO BE THE ALL TIME CHOKE......

	THE ROUGH AROUND THE GREENS WERE A CRIME AND HAVING THE FAIRWAYS CUT
	SO NARROW WAS ALSO THE WORST SET-UP OF ANY GOLF COURSE I'VE EVER SEEN.
	
	IT MADE IT TOO DIFFICULT, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A MAJOR.  GUYS SHOULD BE 
	ABLE TO CHIP FROM  AROUND THE GREEN AND HIT IT FIVE FEET OFF THE 
	FAIRWAY WITHOUT FEAR OF LOSING THE BALL.

	THIS TOURNAMENT WAS NOT A GOOD TEST OF GOLF.  

	THE COURSE DID LOOK FANTASTIC, AND WORTH THE $35,000 INITIATION FEE.

	DOWN THE MIDDLE,

	FRED

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Note 1048.1             PGA -- OR TROUBLE WITH THE ROUGH
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WFOVX8::GUGLIELMO_T                                  10 lines  13-AUG-1990 10:24
                    -< Great tournament on  a tough course >-
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    I disagree these are professional players. Couples beat himself
    he missed three easy par putts. Also notice grady played smart aim
    for the center of the green Styewart played at the pins and had
    to know the consequences. this is a major we are talking about.They
    don't want Joe Schmuck winning unless he proves to be the best and
    let me tell you the smartest player won yesterday.Couples Just lost
    his putting it had nothing to do with the rough.
    
    
    Ted

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Note 1047.1                      Golf in Arizona                          1 of 1
LEDS::OBRIENR                                         9 lines  13-AUG-1990 10:41
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        The course was set up for accurate (read, short) hitters, so it's no 
        surprise that the long hitters (Norman, et al) had a lot of trouble.
        The surprise is that Couples, who is long, came so close to winning,
        and that his downfall was his putting and not his fairway play.  

        He just choked.

	Ron

    
    
    Fuzzy said it the best.....
    
    
    He said this what you do on this course
    
    
    1. Hit the middle of the green
    2. Take your 2 putts
    3. Go to the next tee..
    
    
    end of story....
    
    
    Hey he didn't do to bad doing that way....
    
    
    Bill

         Why is it, every time someone misses a few putts
    they are a choker ? Statistics show that outside of 6 feet,
    the odds on a pro making a putt are only 50-50. I guess
    though that if you miss them in the heat of battle, you
    must be a choker. I thought Couples did a great job finishing
    second. Disaster was waiting on every shot for every player
    and the pressure must have been intense. The list of pros
    who didn't even make the cut was astonishing !!!

	First, I like Couples, he has a great swing and he doesn't take
	himself too seriously.  I was pulling for him all the way.

	I said he choked because his putting was saving his a** all week;
	On the first hole after he took the lead, he THEN started missing
	the putts he had been making easily.  IMO, he lost his concentration
	(probably started thinking about the walk down 18, instead of 
	thinking about the holes he had left to play).

	Ron O

         Maybe when he got the lead, he started thinking about how
    he gets so much grief from people about not trying hard enough
    or practicing enough and it caused him to slip out of the zone
    he had been in. And then again, maybe he just missed them !!!!
    
    Mad Hacker

Fist off, I don't buy the stats that .58 quoted about putting from six feet out
or at least I don't think it proves anything.  You can say anything with stats. 
You have a 50% chance of making all kinds of putts from all kinds of distances,
in my opinion.

I've read several comments by pros that anthing from 10 feet in should start
dropping.  Nicklaus says that 12 feet is where makable putts start.  But yes,
pros are human and as we all know and have heard, putting is CONFIDENCE.  When
you lose it, you simply can't putt!

I was pulling for Couples too.  I felt for him with those three putts.  I
wouldn't say that he "choked" but that he lost his confidence after missing
close.  Yea, I'm sure he felt some pressure.

This was a Nicklaus course.  Many players had a hard time with the course, just
getting to the greens.  Jack believes that golf should be played as it was
intended in the old days, to create a challenge in getting to the hole.  Jack
says that most tournaments are won on the greens, with that other game called
putting.  In the case of Couples, this may have been true.  But over all, the
course, itself, was a real challenge.

I know of golfers who won't go and play on a course with lots of hazards and
narrow fairways and thick roughs.  Why?  It's no good for their egos.  But
these are the courses that separate the men from the boys.  They're a fun
challenge.  They show up your weaknesses, the part of the game where you need
to spend more time.

What's so difficult about hitting huge fairways and approaching unprotected
greens any how???  Where's the challenge???

-dwight

    
    Couldn't agree with the last note more.
    There are too many American courses set up for "target golf"
    ie. wide fairways and soft greens.
    These players are meant to be the best in the world therefore they
    should be able to adapt to any type of golf course.
    
    If the Americans set up more courses the way they set up Shoal Creek
    I'm sure they would have an even greater chance of winning the Ryder
    Cup.European Golf has improved "leaps and bounds" from playing on
    all types of courses. America as we all know used to dominate world
    golf, one of the main reasons for there decline is having to play
    the same type of course week in week out.
    Players can only improve by playing different/harder courses.
    
    Derek.

     Oddly enough, the widest fairways I've ever seen (by a HUGE margin)
    were at Pine Valley, yet this is thought by some folks to be the
    hardest course in the world...
    
    --Jack
    
    

    re. -1 
       The stats I mentioned are from a 10 year study done by Dave
    Pelz. As you say though stats can show just about whatever you
    want them to. I was just trying to say that just because a putt
    is makeable doesn't mean you're going to make it.
    
    Mad Hacker

    So what's the trick with Pine Valley?
    Is it huge carries to the fairways or is it Augusta style greens?
    
    martin

    
    RE Freddy choking
    
    I believe Jack said it best just after Freddie missed his second short
    put. He said something like, its easy when you are not in the lead, you
    are relaxed and you just make the put. Suddenly Couples was in the
    lead, then you tend to tense up and miss some.
    
    Words from a guy who ought to know what it is like to be in the lead.
    
    --Bob
    

    It's easy to change your game and your outlook when you finally
    get the lead! An offensive approach can turn defensive to protect
    the lead.
    
    Trailing, "I must make this putt!"
    
    Leading, "I better not miss this putt!"
    
    There's a big difference!
    
    Eric

    re: .65 - Carries of 200 + to most fairways and if you hit it into
    trouble it is REAL (!!!) trouble. Greens are like lightning with tons
    of undulations, and many are severely elevated. None of the traps have
    ever been raked, so anything can happen, even if you hit it into a
    conventional greenside bunker. Up and downs are extremely difficult.
    It's kinda like playing Portmarnock in the wind with a blindfold...
    
    --Jack

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Note 1049.0                 Rough's Up at Shoal Creek                    1 reply
ODIXIE::WESTCL "Gator Golfer"                        20 lines  14-AUG-1990 14:55
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    Let's get some reactions to the way the PGA set up the course at Shoal
    Creek, Birmingham, this past weekend.  Personally, I thought it stunk. 
    The very high Bermuda grass in the rough and around the greens made a
    mockery of the capabilities of the worlds best golfers.  Only those who
    got lucky, either from a relatively good lie, or lucky in execution
    were able to get it close around the greens.  And, nobody, but nobody,
    could move it more than 100 yards out of the rough next to the
    fairways.  I thought the object of the major championships was to find
    the person who could score the best.  Not the person who was hitting it
    the straightest that particular week.  And, why not do away with
    greenside bunkers altogether?  That way, any player who missed a green
    would have no chance at all.  Wouldn't that be the ultimate equalizer?
    Seems strange that the preferred position if one missed a green was to
    be in a hazzard (sand trap).
    
    And how about the hard greens?  My boss watched the final round in
    person, sitting be the 16th green.  He said that the balls were
    bouncing head high when they hit certain parts of the green!!
    
    I think the Wayne Grady was simply the luckiest player there last week.

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Note 1049.1                 Rough's Up at Shoal Creek                     1 of 1
AIMHI::CORRIGAN                                       9 lines  14-AUG-1990 15:14
                                   -< IMHO >-
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    I have to disagree. The course has nothing to do with it. They could
    play it at the local muni and the winner would still be the person that
    adapts the best for the existing conditions. 
    No one said this game was supposed to be easy. If you hit it into the
    rough you should be penalized. Just 'cause this course was a little
    extreme, they all faced the same conditions.
    
    Joe

    
    Reply .70
    
    	Hi Joe,
    
    		You said the player who adapts best to the conditions
    	should win.... granted. But if the conditions are so severe that
    	you can't adapt, then what? I feel the rough was too unpredictable,
    	and didn't allow the players an opportunity to recover. The only
    	way I could see the rough playing THAT tough, would be if the
    	greens/fairways were so sticky that they'd hold a long iron. The 
    	PGA tourny was a disaster... the best golfer didn't win, just
    	the guy who got the best breaks.
    
    	JMHO
    
    		Walta

    
    Walta,
    
    The only point being is that Grady adapted the best. I think we
    Americans are spoiled rotten by these beautifully manicured stadium
    type courses. When we look at a Britsh Open course we say "yuck".
    These men play for a living, some days at work are easy (-25) some
    days are tough (-7). I don't see what difference it makes what
    condition the course is, as long as they all have to play it. 
    I am fortunate enough to  be able to go to The Masters quite often and
    I think that the speed of those greens is rediculous but that doesn't
    mean that it's unfair, it's just different.
    I don't want to get into a pissin' contest but I feel that theses
    prima-donna's should shut up and be thankful for the living WE provide
    them with. If they don't like it after a practice round, leave.
    Wayne Grady is and always will be PGA champ of 1990. 
    
    Joe

       I saw Grady make several tremendous pitches from the rough
    around the greens after making atrocious approach shots and
    IMHO he earned his victory the hard way. The only break he got
    was Freddies' inability to hold the lead.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Jack designs rough "ROUGHS" and hard greens.  Period.  He build
    challenge into the course.
    
    The leaders were still shooting "under" par, by a few shots.  Why build
    living room courses an get excited about a guy shooting 25 under???
    
    I agree.  If a guy doesn't like it, he doesn't have to play there.
    
    I had rather see this type of tournament.  Grady played better golf...
    during this particular tournament and he faced the EXACT same
    conditions, challenges, as the other gentlemen did.
    
    -dwight

    Listen, I wish they had more tournaments like this.We would fair
    better internationally. The rough in europe is high the temperature
    often very low. Then these guys comes here and kick some american
    ass.
    
    Now as for Grady being lucky,Yes couples missed some putts he should
    have made but as Jack Nicklaus kept saying "Wayne Grady is not going
    to beat himself". The victory was well deserved By the smartest
    guy out there. It was also a long time coming for this guy you may
    see him win a few more now that he has gotten over this second place
    syndrome. Let's hope so because he is a class act and a great player
    IMHO.
    
    Ted

    And what about that shot that Payne Stewart made....
    
    the one where his ball was beside the tree and he turned the club over
    and made the shot to the fairway by swinging as a leftie!!  What a
    shot!
    
    -dwight

    
    Reply the last few;
    
    	Gentlemen,
    
    		I bet you we NEVER see the rough that high again... I
    	would much rather watch some good golf shots, and not hack and
    	hope. You could hit a billion golf balls out of that rough and
    	on your next shot have no real idea where it's going! By your
    	thinking, why don't they just make the greens full of bumps ,
    	don't rake the traps  etc. then would we find out who is the best
    	golfer ?  ;)
    
    	The PRO's are playing for MEGA bucks, I'd be pretty upset if I
    	lost $100,000 because my ball bounced off the green into the
    	jungle ...
    
    
    	Anyway, it makes for a good discussion ! :)
    
    	Walta
    
    	
    	
    	

   If you play the right club you won't bounce over the green. land
    the ball in the front and let it roll to the pin. Or shoot for the
    middle of the green it wasn't like the greens were 3 feet in diameter.
    It took alot of skill(which these guys are supposed to have).Long
    grow the rough on the PGA tour.
    
    Ted

     I don't know what all the "flap" is about. Every time those guys play
    a Major, they know exactly what to expect - 11 Stimp greens, 20 yard
    wide landing areas, graduated fairway rough, etc. I do think that the
    rough around the green should be more difficult on holes where you're
    hitting a short iron in than ones requiring longer clubs.
     You can always take a risk and try to hit a career shot out of tough
    rough, but then course management counts for something too. Sometimes
    you gotta take your licking, and with guys who consistently can hit it
    270 + off the tee, you gotta do something. For example, the fairways
    were hard and close (like all majors), making roll on tee shots more
    pronounced and making it easier to spin the ball. Thus, they firm up
    the greens to counter this.
     I'd say soften the fairways but then shorten the rough. Otherwise,
    leave it alone. Under current conditions, gouging the ball 100 yards
    WAS a great golf shot, and knocking your tee ball into the rough was a
    lousy shot - after all, why do you think they call it "rough?" You
    oughta see what they call rough in Ireland ! Those guys would KILL for
    bermuda rough after that...
     I just finished 5 courses in a row where no tee shot that I didn't
    "skin" rolled more than 3'. Kinda turns a 415 tard hole into your worst
    nightmare...
     My idea of a great "rough" concept is Fisher's Island, where they have
    3 cuts of rough levels. You should see that bentgrass rough, with all
    the sea moisture it gets. Hello, one iron, goodbye driver...
    
    

    
    It seems to me that they were all playing under the same conditions.
    
    Doesn't that make it fair??????????????
    
    
    Shane
    

    
    Hi Shane,
    	
    	Yes, playing under the same conditions is fair... they all had
    	to do their best to battle the rough. I just feel with the
    	rough being so deep, the penalty varies depending on how lucky
    	the end result of swinging a sandwedge full throttle at a buried
    	ball. Sometimes the shot would roll to one putt distance, sometimes
    	it would stay in the rough for a repeat attempt, sometimes it
    	would cross the green and go into more rough, or beach. Then I
        don't feel it's fair... when one player ends up with a triple bogie
    	and the other a par, from the same lie, making the same swing...
    	the determining factor being luck? I'd like to see the winner out
    	skill the others , not out luck them.
    
    	I like Jack Varley's idea... make the rough tall on short holes,
    	where the player can hold the green. Then reduce the height on 
    	the loooong par fours/threes ... otherwise the long hitters will
    	dominate.
    
    	Walta

    I was talking to Mike SanFlippo, the pro at Sky Medow, who played down
    there last week, only 2 days though, shot 2 79s, but he said that the
    PGA feels that it should cost you 1/2 shot if you hit it in the rough,
    he didn't seem to have a problem with it, after all he said "everyone
    has to play the same course"
    
    peter

Two points:

Several have alluded to Nicklaus's designs making the rough rough and 
the fairways narrow. Not true. In fact, the state of the rough has 
nothing to do with design--well not in its formative stage anyway. 
That was a decision of the PGA in setting up the course. Even Jack 
commented on their narrowing of the fairways and lengthening of the 
rough.

Which isn't to say I didn't like the way the course was set up. I 
think the PGA did it that way because they were tired of being 
considered an almost-major compared to the opens. As it turned out, 
this year's PGA was more of a US Open than the actual Open at Medina. 
And it made for a more exciting tournament than it would have been had 
it been set up like Kemper Lakes. What makes for excitement is 
pressure. What makes pressure, besides the mere fact that it is a 
major, is the difficulty of the shots and the possibility of 
disaster. A golf course provides that either by the greens (Augusta) 
or by the hazards (rough or, as with TPC, island greens). If your tee 
shot has to be precise or you're looking at at least a bogey, then the 
muscles tend to tighten up, and leads tend to be lost. Oddly enough, 
Freddie lost it on the greens, which were relatively  innocuous at 
Shoal Creek. But then pressure ALWAYS haunts putting.

I thought this was the best PGA in a while. And Grady proved an 
extraordinary competitor.

Of course, what makes for a good championship doesn't make for a good 
Sunday nassau...

    
    As far as other majors, and their methods of instilling fear,
    pressure etc. Augusta greens can be defeated, island greens
    can be defeated... what I mean by defeated is for instance;
    a truely magnificent putt by Raymond Floyd on the 16th? in the
    Masters etc.  I'd rather see an opportunity of an excellent shot
    save par,  not a "bang and hope" shot out of the rough decide
    the better player. Rough is suppose to be difficult, not
    impossible... there are extremes , and I felt the rough at
    the PGA achieved an extreme. If they made the greens at
    Augusta so severe they couldn't hold a placed ball, would
    that make it a better tourny?
    
    In any event, this could go on forever... it's just my opinion.
    I respect what you guys are saying, and can understand your
    view.  
    
    How many of you would like to play in a tourny with
    a rough THAT thick??? I hear enough complaining on my home
    course when they let it grow ;) !!
    
    	Walta
    

    Last Monday at our DEC league at Green Meadow in Farmingdale,
    the rough was about 3 inches. Talk about bringing me to my knees.
    
    I've been playing very well lately, for me, and Monday I shot a
    56 for 9 holes. I seemed to hit the rough on about every hole.
    
    I'm a far cry from a pro, and will never have my PGA card, but man,
    did I have trouble with a 3 inch rough.
    
    BUT then again, a PRO should be able to adapt to ANY course he is
    playing on. I enjoyed the tournament last weekend. Got to see PRO's
    adjust, blow pars, in other words, "Honorary Hacker's Golf."
    
    Love it..
    
    Jim
    

     I think Walta hit the nail on the head when he said, in effect, "hard
    isn't always good." I agree. You can make any hole hard, but that
    doesn't make it great. For example, number 9 at Whitinsville is one of
    the best par 4's I've ever seen. It's HARD (!), but yet it's still fair
    - with ample fairway, large green with a runway, options over a lake
    for your tee ball to shorten your second shot, appropriate amount of
    rough, etc. It's also 451 yards and the green is elevated.
     I still think the PGA rough was o.k., they just didn't graduate it
    properly, i.e. they got into high rough too close to the fairway.
    
    --Jack

re: .83

>>>Several have alluded to Nicklaus's designs making the rough rough and  the
fairways narrow. Not true. 

If you're alluding to my note(s), I was alluding to Nicklaus's own
philosophy... that the game should be settled in route to the green and not
only on the green.

-dwight

    I'm not really sure where I stand on this one. On one hand, it's the
    same conditions for everyone and if you're in the fairway you don't
    notice the rough. On the other hand nobody is going to hit 100% of the
    fairways, so part of the test of a champion is going to be his play in
    the rough.
    
    Consider this: A player hits his ball into the rough. He has no option
    but to chip it out sideways. This is a great leveller of abilities -
    the good golfers can manufacture a shot around a tree, etc. the poorer
    players can't. With extra thick rough they are both forced into the
    same shot. 
    
    Also as other people have noted, the rough isn't 'graded'. Miss the
    fairway by 5 feet and you may as well miss it by 20  yards. Shots hit
    the rough and stop dead, so alternateively a wayward shot could
    actually stop short of worse trouble.
    
    This approach favours the player that hits the fairway most often. Is
    that right or wrong? I don't know, but look at the tour standings (any
    tour) and I'm sure #1 on the list isn't going to be top of the driving
    accuracy list. 
    
    On the whole, I think I'd favour less severe rough to encourage shot
    making and spectator interest. But then again...
                                                        
    Another 2p worth!
    Paul