Conference 7.286::golf

    
    
    	Re. 0
    
    
    I agree 100%.  Last week one of the nightly news shows (20/20 etc.)
    aired a special on the "Golden Boys of Golf",  the seniors.  It
    was a real neat piece.  They showed clips of tourneys with the players
    talking with the crowds,  Lee,Arnie, Chi Chi and all joking with
    other players etc.  They all said they were absolutely tickled to
    be able to play the game they love and make the kind of money they
    can make.  Also how good the tourney sponsors and people treat them,
    they feel like kings.  The piece went on to say that the seniors
    tour is getting so popular that they are taking business away from
    the LPG and the PGA regular tours!!!  Sponsors are pulling from
    their regular tourney and going to the seniors.  They interviewed
    some fans at some tourneys and the general concensus was that the
    seniors are people, love the game and are thanking their lucky stars
    to be playing for such money.  On the other hand they said the players
    on the regular tour were businessmen, nameless and faceless.  Were
    out there to do a days work and then go home.  It just isn't as
    fun to watch.  Also a lot of golf fans can relate to the old timers,
    they grew up watching Arnie, gary player, orvill Moody,etc.
    
    	I'd like to see the regular tour take a lesson from their older
    couterparts and stop the bitching and play golf.  They are making
    more money than ever for doing something they love to do.  Who's
    got it better than them?????
    
    	Oh well, I guess thats enough....Mike

    ditto .0 & .1

    Besides, it's  not  like  the greens are too hard and the courses too
    tough for only  a portion of the tour;  it is for everyone in it, and
    if courses are tougher  is  to  provide  who  ultimately  pays  their
    prizes,  the  expectator  (TV  and    on-site)   a  more  interesting
    expectacle.
    
    Tavo

    Golfers are nothing like baseball players :-).  If I was an owner,
    there wouldn't be a baseball season this year at all.  Talk about cry
    babies.
    
    Mike

    You are all correct.  Sorry that baseball players and golfers must
    endure so much for so little.  It boggles the mind.
    
    Big Mac

    If they think the courses they play are tough, they should play the
    muni's we all play. I'd like to see Zinger, Calc, and others play with
    NO grass on the tees, Poor greens, & rough that has not been cut because
    the only mower is broken. Not to mention putting your shoes on in the
    parking lot, no range, etc.
    
    65 at these muni's is like 55 on the tourney courses they play. My hats
    off to the Publinx Champ every year.
    
    Regards,
    Ken 
    who_took_a_short_sabatical_from_the_notes_file_and_is_glad_to_be_back! 

     Tom
     good topic...Mark "Calc" made the comment  at PV, 
    , as he walked out the club house   to the practise tee,
    that all the magets were "out" meaning the spectators.
    And my kid was looking for his autograph.
    At least he didn't charge $ 7.00 dollars for an autograph.
    
    How many so called "pros" won't go to New England course
    because of greens and fairway grass, tree lines etc,
    
    From a personal point of view,I played a course that's listed
    as top 5 for pro's, a Pete Dye special, TPC Stadium::
    
    And it is tough, BUT!!!, you don't lose two shots by being
    DEEP in woods. I have yet to see a PGA course with REALLY DENSE
    tree lines, ala most courses in NE!!
                    Even PV doesn't have real dense tree lines
    on all holes. The stadium "configuration" saves the tee shots.
    Any one disagree?
    As someone said,that's why the seniors is becoming so popular.           
    They are happy to have a second career,and are real nice.
    Of course ,you do have your Bruce Devlins,Jack Flecks,Bruce
    Cramptons,even Lee can be a pain when not playing well.
    If they ever lower the age to 45,it will blow the PGA regular tour away.
                                            
    ...agree baseball players are becoming real cry babies..
    $15 bucks for an autograph to someone grossing at least 1 mil
    a year!! No way.
                                                           Ang
    

    
    
    	Something needs to be done. Case in point.
    
    
    A few years ago you would never see any player on the TV toss,throw
    a club or have words to say after a poorly struck shot. Today you
    can see this every time you watch a program. maybe it's because
    the TV networks show us this and it's been happening all along but
    I feel that there is a marked increase. 
    
    Why shouldn't the commisioner ban a golfer for "unprofessional"
    behavier?   If this happened a few times then I think things would
    change. Also the purses need to be trimmer. I like how the Senior
    purses are considerably smaller than the regular tour. It's gotten
    to the point now on the regular tour where a player can go and win
    a couple or even one event and the not show up for a few months. 
    
    
    
    Tom

>    A few years ago you would never see any player on the TV toss,throw
>    a club or have words to say after a poorly struck shot. 

	Gee, Tommy Bolt must have never been on TV! ;-)

	LARRY

     You'll see 'em playing in deep woods at this years U.S. Open! Medinah
    #3 is a real torture chamber with lots of lumber. I met the
    superintendent last year (Dan Quast) and he has a staff of 60 to
    maintain three golf courses.
     I'll disagree very moderately with the comments here on Pros bitching.
    Those guys are knowledgeable and can add value if they directed their
    comments to the right people in the right way. Unfortunately, most of
    them don't. It's like inviting someone to your house for dinner and
    having him/her bitch about the food.
     If they made constructive suggestions to the tour sponsor and
    greenskeeper (after first consulting with the tour agronomist) IN
    PRIVATE, it might actually do some good.
    
    -- Jack

    
    I tend to disagree somewhat... The pros are under tremendous pressure
    each week. The competition is simply mind bogling. Some of us feel the
    pressure when playing a $3.00 nasa (sp?)
    
    They have paid there dues.... dearly... to get to where they are. If a
    pro isn't playing well, I feel that it's just an excuse 'the greens are
    too hard/soft, the ruff isn't the right length... etc" It's simply a
    frustrating game... at ANY level... if you are not playing well.
    
    I agree that our public courses that many of us play are in tuff shape,
    but common... the pros would have NO trouble with most of them..
    especially if they were playing a $3.00 nasa...
    
    The seniors... hey ... the pressure if OFF them. They have made their
    big $$ by now... have investments, businesses, etc. They are playing
    for the FUN of it... where the regular tour, for many, they are playing
    to SURVIVE... 
    
    Smitty
    

    
    I disagree, alot of the named cry babies are not playing to survive. 
    Calcavechia (sp?) is not surviving week to week, neither is Curtis
    Strange.
    
    The thing I hate is when they call a course unfair because they can't
    blow par away. I don't remember the year, but when the US Open was at
    Winged Foot, I remember them saying the course was unfair, we can't hit
    drivers.  So what, everyone plays the same course, fair or unfair.
    Personally I would love it if the winner of every pro tournament was 
    2 - 3 under, how fair is it when to make the cut you have to be even
    or close to it and the winner comes in at 12-15 under?  I think that at
    the level these guys are at they should be punished for missing a 
    fairway, the more they miss by the tougher the punishement. If a ball
    lands in the fairway and rolls of, give them a small punishment, like
    rough that is 1" or so in length, if they land in the rough and go 
    further in, get um.
    
    Whether a course is fair or not, they all play it.
    
    As for explosions of temper, these will always happen, it just seems
    more predominant in the younger players than the older.  It seems that
    the younger guys take the large prizes and great conditions for
    granted. They owe all this to the older players (Nicklause, Palmer,
    Snead etc) and to the gallery for coming out and supporting them. Part
    of this, as I see it is autographs and if it does not bother them, chat
    with the gallery, if they can't do this due to concentration or what
    ever fine. But like Fuzzy Zoeller said one day, he chats and jokes
    because he can't keep his concentration for 4+ hours straight, so he 
    talks to relax.
    
    --Bob
    

I think it is unfortunate, but the concept of what is "fair" in golf
is reflected in players comments. (There is a note somewhere in this
conference about courses, wind, rain, etc which plays right into this).

The impact of sports on America has increased so dramatically that it
has definitely altered the way we look at the game. There is a lot of
media presence, a lot of exposure of players and courses, and naturally
a lot of money! Somewhere along the line the various pressures have
dictated that events be decided purely by athletic skills, with luck
being minimized. If a player catches a bad break it is as much unfair as
it is unlucky. I believe the "statesman" players (Watson, Palmer, Crenshaw)
accept the rub of the green as an integral part of the game.

I've never played a links course, but it is easy to see that it is a
different game than golf in the US. With links you tee a ball and play
it - wind, bumps, odd stances, gorse, hard greens are all part of the
elements that make up golf. In the US, all greens must roll true; all
greens must be of the same firmness; you must be able to play out of
rough.

I remember in the US Open at Brookline Curtis went for the elevated 14th
green in 2, came up short, and watched his ball roll 30 yards back down
to the fairway. Nicklaus claimed on TV that this was unfair result for
a pretty good fairway wood shot. Frank Hannigan disagreed saying Curtis
saw the hill, there were no tricks or surprises, and that's golf! I think
Hannigan is right on! I'm sure we'll hear about unfair greens this week
from Augusta too!

(Pros would kill us on our own public courses. After all that's how they
got to be pros in the first place. I saw a 55 year old Don January shoot
65 at Marlboro, I can't imagine what a Calcavechia would do ...)

By the way, I also believe human officiating is part of football and very
much disagree with the use of TV to find "the truth" on close calls. It
happens in all sports, but in golf there seems to be a lot more elements
to complain about ;-).

I also think golf has grown through television to the point where more
people care what players say, and in turn the media feels more compelled
to report more than the eye sees. I would guess that golfers 30 years
ago had their moments too, but they weren't reported and if they were
who really cared? Now every golfer is identifyable to millions (I've
never met Seve but I can easily picture his mannerisms and emotions)
and every reporter will describe complaints and blow-ups. Again, this
is also true of other sports - not always easy for 20 year old athletes
to handle.

I complain about my job at times (yes, it's true ;-)! Golfers will also
complain. It does not sound good, but with the attitude of what's fair
and the exposure of everything said and done, is it really a surprise?

Eric

(who can't wait to start swinging and complaining ;-)

    
    Don't think that the Seniors don't complain about the courses. The
    Seniors play in Syracuse NY each year. They use to play at Belveue
    country club, but the seniors complained that the greens were too fast
    so now they play at LaFayette country club. They do complain, you just
    don't hear about it because they don't get the same coverage.
    
    Mike

    I my mind, golfers of all levels should be able to adapt to whatever
    the conditions dictate. That is part of the challenge of the game of
    golf. My opinion is that many golfers look to something other than
    themselves to blame for a poor performance.
    Rich

    
    I guess one of my feelings is that the older golfer,those that remember
    what it used to be like seem to speak more professionaly with guarded
    emotion when questioned about a course. 
    
    If the common person didn't watch the golf in person or on TV,didn't
    play the game then most of the players on tour today would probably
    be doing something else for a living. Because the money wouldn't
    be there.  
    
    I'd be the first to agree that they live under an extreeme amount
    of pressure but then again so do other professions and they did
    choose to play the pro tour.  
    
    I think the subject matter we are discussing here is the root cause
    behind the feeling that the pro tour is "faceless" today. All great
    players have ups and downs. It hiw a player plays the game and how
    he plays the crowd that will for the next "Great Legend" of golf.
    
    
    Tom

    Tom,
    
    You make a good point about the "common" person.  As with lots
    as sports, the prize money, paychecks, etc. are getting huge,
    especially when it comes to baseball, but this isn't the conference
    for that.
    
    We hear about all the complaints from the pros, but do you think they
    ever stop to think of what it's like from our side?  What would it
    be like without a gallery lining the final fairway?  Or a stadium
    filled with a cheering croud.
    
    Sometimes I think how great it would be if the fans went on strike
    and refused to pay the cost of admission and concessions to see a
    sporting event.
    
    Just my opinion...
    
    Shawn
                   

    To be fair, the players can be absolutely charming during practice
    rounds and pro-ams. Most seem to sign everything in sight between
    green and the next tee. I've seen Wayne Grady chucking golf balls
    to kids, Greg Norman letting a gallery member try his chip, Fuzzy
    Zoeller waltzing (with dip!) with a fan while waiting on the tee...
    There is a definite rapport before the intensity and "game faces"
    come into play. It is a shame that TV can't show some of this to
    the viewers once in a while.
    
    Once the tournament begins, the player is all alone. I agree - the
    younger players do seem faceless. All we see is their seriousness,
    and a paucity of smiles. They also have lived and worked and been
    trained to be professional golfers for most of their lives. Their
    focus makes for pretty dull and inarticulate interviews, doesn't
    it? (Norman seems to be an exception - his personality and appeal
    have given him a status that his game alone could not give).
    
    CBS did not interview too many of the "younger breed" during the
    Masters. I wonder if this was intentional or a function of the leader
    board? Surely they could have used a Zinger or an early finisher
    to add more to the telecast? I felt that Crenshaw and Lanny Wadkins
    were excellent and that Seve and even Weiskopf would've been better
    if Jim Nance knew how to use them. Faldo was great - wanting to
    burst out all over the place, but wanting to appear dignified on
    camera ;-). (He may still be partying as I write this!)
    
    I don't know. Have today's new players forgotten how to have fun?
    
    Eric

    John Huston is the guy whose serious/grim face most impresses me.
    I wonder if he *ever* smiles? Even Gamez seems to have lost his
    effervescence. But, as someone once said, you can't judge a book by
    its cover. I don't recall seeing a lot of hi-jinks from Jack Nicklaus
    over the course of his career...he was totally absorbed in his work.
    There was a story in Golf Digest about him and Phil Rodgers being
    paired in a tournament back in the 60's, when each golfer kept the
    other guy's score (no walking scorers at that time). According to
    Rodgers, Nicklaus said hello to him on the first tee, and never
    said another word to him for the next 18 holes; and when Rodgers
    asked for his scorecard, it was *blank*! Nicklaus had even forgotten
    to put down Phil's scores. Now *that's* concentration.
    
    		Frank
    
    	Frank

    
    A friend of mine brought back a book from Augusta about "The Masters"
    history.  One interesting note.  Back in the early sixties the
    gallaries hated Nicklaus.  There was a great article about this chubby
    little sloppy dresser from Ohio that was taking away the beloved Arnie.  
    People would actually cheer against The Golden Bear.  In 1965 or 66
    when Nicklaus set the course record people started cheering for him for
    the first time.  Arnold Palmer admits that he was very shaken to hear
    the gallaries at Augusta actually cheering for someone else.
    
    It takes us a while to warm up to new stars.  However, I don't think I
    could ever warm up to Scott Hoch.
    
    ron
    

    re. -1 
    
    	You must have a heart of stone if you couldn't warm up to Hoch
    after he donated half of his check for winning a tournament ($100K I
    think) to some childrens hospital.  What do these other guys do with
    all this money anyway?
    
    			"another" Ron
    

     I COMPLETELY agree with the previous note. If you've read any Hoch
    stories, you see him as a no b.s. family person and very much a regular
    guy. Sure the tour contributes to charities, and some guys very
    occasionally make charitable appearances (and probably write 'em off
    and get expenses to boot). My point is that how many of them would take
    100k "whip out" and plunk it on the table.
     Everybody on the tour is a good player, but we need more "good guys."
    
    -- Jack
    
    
    

    I don't know how much it was, but Faldo donated the prize money
    from a tournament last year to smoe charity or other.
    
    Can any one elaborate ?
    
    Wayne

    
      Payne Stewart also donated his winnings to a Florida hospital.
    The PGA as a whole does a great deal of charity work in fact. One
    of the great things to like about the game and the people that play.
    
      Talking about Hoch, who else besides me think that Scott Hoch
    looks like Mark Calcavecchia?
    
    -rick

    
    
    re:25
    
    	I think that Faldo's lady caddy sorta looks like calc...
    
    John

    Hoch's been carrying a bum rap for some time, ever since one of
    the golf mags ran a poll, allegedly taken among other tour pro's,
    in which he was voted "least popular" tour golfer. I certainly thought
    his 100K gift to the Arnold Palmer children's hospital cast him
    in a much more positive light. (And why would such a question even
    *be* included in a poll for public consumption??)
    
    
    	Frank