Conference 7.286::golf

    Likes:
    A course where the par 4's are more than a drive and a wedge to the
    green.  
    A course where it takes a gorilla to make the par 5's in two shots.
    	Played Sunday at a course in Prescott,AZ which is pretty good but
    	a drive and a 3 iron and a putt for an eagle on a par 5? Uh uh.
    	Looks good on the card though.
    Dislikes:
    Target golf courses where it is nearly imposible to use the driver.
    	6 irons off the tees on a par 4 don't get it. (Superstition
    	Springs in Mesa,AZ)
    There has to be more of each but it is early and the mind doesn't
    

    I played a new course on Monday called Eagle Watch. Its in a hugh new
    development just outside of atlanta called Town Lake. The course was
    designed by Arnold Palmer and is going to be a gem. I say going to be,
    because just now they have drainage problems which are in the process
    of being fixed and make the course look real funny in spots (mud,
    gravel, the odd BIG hole, etc) Each hole has four tees, ladies, the
    whites, the blues, and waaaaayyyyyy back, the "championship" tees.
    There is water, in the form of small lakes and ponds on 12 of the
    holes. On the par 3's the water is in play if you hait anything like
    a bad shot, but all of the par 3's have an area into which you can
    chicken if you need to. If you do, you ain't gonna par the hole(failing
    a miracle pitch/chip) but bogey is easy.  The par 4's are all reachable 
    in 2 providing one does not overestimate his skill level and is hitting
    from the correct set of tees( whites for this hacker) But you have to
    hit it good. By good I mean you have to land your drive in the right
    area to have a good chance with your second shot. if you are left or
    right, you will find enough trouble in the form of water, bunkers or
    trees to make getting home in 2 a gamble. If you hit a good drive, you
    always have the easyest 2nd shot (angle and hazzard wise) but you gotta
    be acurate with it. all the greens are guarded with both sand and grass
    bunkers and either trees or water.  The greens are all in great shape,
    big, rolling and true. The par 5's (except for #18) are birdie holes
    within the same constraints I mentioned for the par 4's. Hit your drive
    to the correct area of fairway, be long enough, and a perfect 2nd shot
    will get into birdie country. Make a little mistake and par is still a
    posibility, make a bigger one and its a sure bogey.  The 18th is the
    finishing hole from hell. 525 yards from the whites and all up hill.
    Tee shot thru a narrow valley with cliffs (yes I said cliffs) on either
    side for 150 yards to a wide open fair way with bunkers in strategic
    places and two creeks meandering across it. Hit a real big drive, and
    it's gonna get wet. hit it short, you're gonna be in the waste area for
    sure. 2nd shot must carry the 2nd creek or you haven't a chance. Third
    shot is a 6 or a 7 (for me) to an elevated green with bunkers in front
    and behind. I lost my sense of humor on this one Monday (triple). I
    LOVE this course! One day I'm gonna play it par and the next I will lay
    me down and die happy

    I like a course where the holes are well defined.  By that I mean you
    can see the fairway from the tee and layout of the hole.  An example of
    a hole I don't like would be Stow (north I think) where the first
    fairway (par 5) appears to be a pasture and the green is a raised spot
    in a island of green.  (The first hole at Shaker Farms in Westfield
    Mass is like this too.)  The fairways don't have to be tree lined or
    appear to be a bowling alley, but when you stand on the tee you can see
    how you want to play the hole.
    
    I also like a course where you have options.  You can try to manuver
    the ball (if you think you're up to it), cut a corner or just get it into
    play.  You should not suffer a penalty for just getting it into play
    (par should be achievable) but there should be a reward for a good
    shot.  I think that the short game should be a part of the game.  Larry
    said he liked Donald Ross designs.  I agree!  If you've ever played one
    you know that if you miss greens you'd better have several shots around
    the green or plan on making lots of bogies.
    
    In summary I like a course that presents itself to the player and says
    'here's my strengths and weakness.  Use your strengths to make par
    and I will use my strength to force you to make bogey.'  To me that's 
    the game.  You should use all of your clubs, all of the shots at your
    disposal and your imagination.  A 6600 yard course may not be long but
    it could destroy the big hitter and reward the short ball knocker.  A
    7000 yard course could be duck soup to anybody playing the bump and
    run.  A golf course that makes you think and decide is a good golf
    course.
    
    
    
    						KO

    re.1
    
    I like the part about using all thge clubs that to me shows a challenge
    in the course.
    
    I don't agree though about #17 at the TPC It's a make or break hole
    the great players come through.I am not even a good player but I
    like a challenge always have and that is one of the most challenging
    holes I have seen.
    
    One more thing I think they ought to lengthen some of these par
    5s for the pros they get far to many eagles to easily.Like I mentioned
    in note 902 the eurpean tour if the one corse I saw is any indcation
    is even shorter.Lots of eagles. I like the tournaments where the
    winner comes in at 3 or 4 under.
    
    Ted

         I like an even mix of par 3, 4, and 5 holes with  one
    par 5 reachable in 2 with two great hits and a couple of par
    4's that you are lucky if you ever reach in 2. Also there
    should be a requirement to hit drives that draw or fade, not just
    right to left. Several elevated greens are nice as well as proper
    bunkering. I'm not much on water though. I don't lose many balls
    in the water but in general think that designers get carried away
    when they start adding lakes and ponds everywhere. I guess it is
    the ultimate hazard with little or no chance for recovery but still!
    
    Mad Hacker
    

    First of all I think a course must have beauty.  I am open to the
    desert, mountains, trees, lakes, or whatever, but beautiful is re-
    quired. 
    
    Next is terrain.  No flat, wide open courses.
    
    Then I want to see variety.  Pars should require excellent shot making.
    There should be alternatives for the higher handicap player, so that if
    he can't carry to the green he has a chance to bogey.  A good shot
    should never penalize a player, because of a few inches (long drive,
    six inches off the fairway, should be in the first cut so that there
    is a small penalty for not being center, but it should be several yards
    to the jungle).  
    
    I like to see thinking brought in to the game.  Gamble to carry the
    ravine, or lay-up with an iron.  My favorite hole is a double dog-leg
    par 5 that has a creek and ravine to carry off the tee to an fairly
    open fairway.  From the tee you can play left over huge oaks and carry
    the ball 250yds, for a shot at the green, if you can carry the trees
    and lake guarding the green, with another 250yd carry.  Or you can
    hit a drive down the right-center, so that a good fairway wood will 
    put you less than a wedge to the green, if the drive is not stymied 
    by a gigantic oak that is left-center in the fairway.  My last round
    on this hole, I hit a 5 iron about 185 off the tee, just left of the
    tree line and openning over the ravine.  Another 5 iron put me just 
    into the opening to the green.  A well struck 6 iron put me on the
    dance floor.  If any of those shots went a little left, ...disaster!
    I just like options based on your skills, knowledges and abilities.
    
    Finally, greens should not resemble a minature golf course, should be
    reasonably fast, but able to hold a line, if you read correctly.
    
    I am presently seeking capital to construct this course.  Contributions
    may be sent to Big Mac Enterprises.
    
                         Big Mac
    

    Like: Alister MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Seth Raynor, Dick Wilson, Donald
    Ross, Stiles and Van Klieck.
    Dislike: Pete Dye.
    Marginal: Tom Fazio, Robert Trent Jones, Rees Jones.
    
    -- Jack   

There was a good article on course design in the Boston Globe recently. The
gist of the article was that most designers have a trademark.  If you play
one course you have never played before, did you ever get the feeling you
have been there before?  Do you play well at the same type of courses? 

Well, this article really hit home.  Next to the article was a table of
architects and courses they have designed in Massachusetts.  I thought it
was interesting that Geoffrey Cornish, who designed my home course (Trull
Brook), also designed many of my favorite courses: Stow North, Far Corner,
Poquoy Brook, Cranberry Valley, Oceans Edge and Captains.  Also, he 
designed Iyanough Hills, Middleton, Dunfey's...

I have only been playing golf for 6 years and was surprised to find that
there were 29 courses that I have played, and it wasn't even a complete
listing.  Anyway, the table listed Donald Ross courses, as well as those of
several other architects.  I'll try to remember to bring it in and and post
it here tomorrow. 

Jeff

Some Massachusetts golf courses and their architects...

RALPH BARTON -- Greenfield

GEOFFREY CORNISH -- Allendale, Bayberry Hills (*), Blue Rock, Captains (*), 
Chicopee, Muni, Cranberry Valley, Crestview, Creswood, Crystal Springs, 
Dunfey's, Far Corner, Farm Neck, Foxborough, Heritage Hill, Hickory Ridge, 
Hollly Ridge, Indian Ridge, International, Iyanough Hills, Kingsway (*),
Middleton, Nashawtuc, Ocean Edge (*), Pine Oaks, Poquoy Brook, Quashnet 
Valley, Rehoboth, Shaker Farms, Spring Valley, Stow Acres North, Swansea, 
Thomson, Trull Brook, Wampatuck, Bay Pointe.  (*) with Brian Silva

GEORGE FAZIO -- Oak Ridge, Presidents, Wollaston

ALEXANDER FINLEY -- Bear Hill, Brockton, Dedham Country & Polo, Miacomet, 
Siasconset

W.H. FOWLER -- Eastward Ho!

MANNY FRANCIS -- Bedford AFB, Dunromain, Green Harbor, Hickory Hill, 
Westminster

WALTER HATCH -- Amherst, Ellinwood

FREDERIC C. HOOD -- Kittansett

MICHAEL HURDZAN -- Dennis Highlands, Willowbend

ROBERT TRENT JONES -- Crumpin Fox (*), Ipswich (*), Tara Ferncroft. 
(*) with Roger Rulawich

KARL LITTEN -- White Cliffs

SAM MITCHELL -- Brookmeadow, Norwood, Easton, Little Harbor

WILLIE PARK -- Milton-Hoosic, New Bedford

DONALD ROSS -- Belmont, Brrae Burn, Charles River, Cohasset, Pittsfield, 
Essex, George Wright, Kernwood, Longmeadow, Ludlow, Oak Hill, Oyster 
Harbors, Plymouth, Pocasset, Ponkapoag, Salem, Sandy Burr, Tatnuck, 
Wachusett, Wellsley, Weston, Whaling City, Whitensville, Winchester, 
Worcester, Wyckoff

WAYNE STILES and JOHN VAN KLEEK -- D.W. Field, Haverhill, Gannon, Marlboro, 
Marshfield, Needham, Newton Commonwealth, Pine Brook, Putterham Meadows, 
South Shore, Furnace Brook, Taconic, Thorny Lea, Unicorn, Wahconah, 
Woodland

A. W. TILLINGHAST -- Berkshire Hills

THOMAS WINTON -- Woods Hole

SKIP WOGAN -- Bellevue, Blue Hill, Sankaty Head, Merrimack

PHIL WOGAN -- Billerica, Halifax, Pine Ridge, Pembroke, Rockland, Rowley

     I think Willie Ogg did the original design of Dedham Country & Polo
    Club.
    
    -- Jack