Conference 7.286::golf

    pete,
    
    In which way were you hitting them bad? Pushing, pulling, what is you
    normal ball flight. When is the last time before the other day that you
    hit balls?
    
    peter

    Peter,
    
    I was hitting them really inconsistent. I hit most of them right to
    left but that is not my normal flight. I hit the ball straight , well
    that is what I try to do. Maybe a very slight draw at best. These shots
    were moving to much. Now I have had the same problem with my old clubs
    but could correct it within a couple of swings and with these clubs I
    evevtually corrected the flight of the ball but it was the feel that
    really bothers me. I am not hitting the ball as far as I was before and
    I think my swing is getting quick to make up for it. When I slowed my
    swing down I left the ball out to the right. I did set up 150 yds from
    a green nad hit 5 balls into it with a seven iron. 4 of 5 hit the green
    and went about 135-140 yds. Now I don't have a problem with the
    distance considering the weather and 4 of 5 id goos but the feel is
    what bugs me. I feel like I have to swing harder than i am used to to
    get the results >I want. 
    
    Pete

    Peter;
    
    A few years ago when I used to play competitivly (4 HDCP USGA) I
    thought it was time to improve my equipment and switched from 1963
    model Golfcrafts with a generic True Temper Regular shaft in my
    irons to Wilson Staffs with stiff ultralite shafts.  I immediately
    lost 8-10 yards in distance but accuracy didn't improve or worsen.
    I stuck with them for a full season without seeing any improvement
    so I finally went back to the old Golfcraft which I still use today.
    Oh yes, I had the same feeling that you describe; i.e. should be
    swinging harder.  My tempo was/is quite slow and have never been
    very long, typical 7 iron approx 150 yds.  Hope you kept your old
    clubs.
    
    hb

    pete,
    
    The effect a stiffer shaft is going to have on a right to left player
    is that the ball will tend to go right and not move back to the left as
    much, it's easier to work a ball with regular shafts. I think that
    unless you change back to the regular shaft, you will have some work to
    do with changing you swing slightly to conficate for the shaft
    difference. 
    
    Unless of course it's those imination club heads you got - just kidding
    Gene. But that's a different story.......
    
    Peter

    
    HB, Ya I still got the old clubs. It's like an old friend, you make new
    friends but there no replacement for an old friend.
    
    Come on the rest of you Saps this is a big decision for me. Don't leave
    me out in the cold. 
    
    Pete

    
    	Pete H.,
    
    	Have you tried taking both your old set and new set out and hitting
    	both under the same weather conditions (same day, same cold balls)...?
    
    	Gene

    hi Pete,
    
    	I went from regular to stiff shafts... I swing very hard causing
    	the regular shafts to bow. On long irons especially the shot would
    	fade or slice badly. When I switched to stiff, I lost the bad
    	slice. Unless I setup to cause a slice, it would not happen. The
    	ball would still fade (at worse).
    
    	I wish I could see your swing speed/tempo/acceleration etc. Seems
    	the main reason for using stiff shafts is due to regular shafts
    	flexing. If your swing is smooth as you say... and smooth means
    	a nice unhurried transition from backswing to downswing, then
    	I wouldn't change. If it doesn't "feel" right it'll be bugging
    	you...   Try what Gene said and do a direct comparison. It
    	would be a bummer if the feel problem was something else, and
    	not the shafts.
    
    	Walt

    
    Gene and Walt,
    
     I have over the past 2 weeks hit balls under the same conditions and
    didn't have the same problem. I will do as you suggest and hit both
    clubs in the same conditions just to be sure. The thing is now I have
    it in my mind that the stiff shaft is not the right one for me so with
    that in my head it seems I should just make the switch. Befor I do I
    will hit both clubs together and compair. 
    
    Ya know what really bugs me is that in the beginning my idea was to have
    the same club as my old ones with a different head. OH well.
    
    Pete

    Pete, I have been using stiff shafts for over a year now
    and have found that  I had to swing hard (not fast, and I
    don't know any other way to say it) to get the same results
    in terms of flight and direction as my regular shafted clubs
    but I have increased distance by about 10-15 yards per club.
    I'm not sure if the distance is worth having to swing so
    aggressively all the time. I would probably be satisfied with
    stiff flex in the woods and regular flex in the irons as I have
    about a 10 mph swing speed difference between the two. Now, if
    you want to try something stiff, I have this Titanium shafted
    Tour-burner I could make a great deal on. It is like swinging
    a broom handle!!!
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    Pete, I had another thought on those s200 shafts you have
    been trying. What about the flex point of the shaft and
    tip flex. The characteristics might be totally different
    than the old shafts you are used to.
    MAD HACKER

    	Last year I switched from titlest accu-flow to taylor made irons
    with the same shaft true-temper gold s300. I lost about a full club in
    distance, were I would ussually hit a seven iron with the titlest I now
    have to hit a six with the taylor made irons. 
    	In my situation the heads are not the same. The titlest have a lot
    of weight at the bottom and the taylors have a tour blade. I will agree
    that if you do have a smooth back swing a regular shaft is probably the
    shaft you should be using. Stiff shafts are more so for the fast swing
    hitters.
    							Armando
    

    sounds like you got 'SHAFTED' on this deal.

    pete,
    
    whats that old saying... if its not broke, don't fix it.
    
    i went to stiff shafts on my woods only... now i can find em.
    ie: they go stright.
    
    
    bob

	

	This whole thing about shafts is facinating.

	To me, the shaft is the most important part of the
	club, head comes second, and then the grip.

	My first set of clubs I bought used.  All I knew is
	that they were Wilson's something.  And so I began
	playing on the par 3 course near my house.  I
	began to notice that I hit some clubs better than
	others.  Then I realized that the clubs I hit well
	also seemed to have a better "feel" to them.  	
	Naturally, I began to use the clubs that "felt"
	better almost all the time (all four of them),
	making adjustments for distance etc...
	You can get away with this on a short, par 3
	course, but not on a long course.

	I played these clubs 2 years before I noticed one
	day that the clubs I hit well were different from 
	the ones I didn't hit well.  As it turns out, the
	ones I hit well were the original Wilson shafts.
	They are:  - light weight
		   - with a regular flex
                   - with a low bend point

	The others were obviously replacements, since the
	Wilson shafts seemed to have a weak tip which 
	caused them to bend and eventually break.

	So as I began my search for new clubs, I wanted
	the same if not comparable "feel" as the Wilson's.
	I am now playing a PING clone with TT Lite
	regular shafts which feel pretty good.  However,
	I like a stiff shaft in a driver..but that's
	another story.

	If you're not happy with the shafts, I suggest you
	experiment and find one you like.  It's best
	to get this over with now, so that you're relaxed and
	ready to just think about playing.

	That's all for now...Bruce Woodruff

    I bought a set of Spaulding Cannons a few years back and really like
    the set, they are Medium (Regular) flex steel, D-1 swingweight.  I did
    however change all of the shafts on the woods and my 1 and 3 irons to
    STIFF because I am quite a powerful player and with there length, I
    found the Medium flex too hard to control consistantly.  I recently
    purchased a Cannon 9 degree Driver which is STIFF and D-4 swingweight.
    I notice very little difference with the 'feel' using Titleist balls
    and Tour Edition 100's, but RANGE balls are something else all
    together!!  Range balls many times are one-piece and have little
    quality control.  For example, Pro's practice with ALL NEW factory
    fresh Titelists, etc., not what we normally use. 
    
    I believe it is almost impossible to judge, effectively, how a club
    actually performs until you really play it!  In the future, especially
    if you're contemplating a new set, ask the clubmaker to make you (or pro 
    to let you borrow) one club that normally you use and hit well (say 5 or 7
    iron) along with your current set.  Whenever you hit a shot with YOUR
    CLUB, hit a shot from the same place with the NEW CLUB, using YOUR TYPE
    of ball.  In this way you'll get a better idea of 'playability' and
    only need worry about 'shafting' in this case, one club, instead of an
    entire set!   It's also a good way to experiment with swingweights and
    different style club heads.
    
    John

      Pete,
     my two cents,you have to have strong through the hitting zone
    club  head speed plus the strong hand action of the late hit and
    then the proper roll of the wrists to get the most out of stiff
    shafts.  My MGA 'cap runs 12 to 14 and I wouldn't  touch them.
    If your an under "10" type and under 40 stick with them because
    in the long run they will be more accurate and longer because the
    stiff   shaft     when properley "torqued" will generate very fast club
    head  speed at moment of impact. And be more accurate with a good
    swing.
                                                            Ang
    
    
    
     
    

    pete
    
    i have an interesting experience to share with you, i play wilson
    staffs with tt-stiff shafts, they are the 1984 or 85 models, i saw a
    used set at a local pro shop, only been hit on sundays by a little old
    lady, anyway they are in great shape (they are the 1989 models) . i was 
    interested in them because they are the exact model (head design and all) 
    as my current clubs except they have dyanamic golf s300 shafts, which i
    think are a little stiffer than the tt-stiff shafts.  the pro gave them
    to me to test out for a few weeks. last night i was hitting balls in my
    garage into my net and noticed that with the new clubs the ball was
    hitting more right then with the old clubs, so i decided to hit a few
    balls into the back yard, i only hit 3 5 irons with the new clubs and i
    am a right to left player, but these balls were going right to right, i
    could not get the ball to turn over, i then tried a couple with my old
    club and was able to draw the ball. i'm going to try them out
    some more, but as of right now i wouldn't buy the clubs because of the
    shafts, i have enough to worry about in my golf game without having to 
    change my swing.
    
    peter

    I have decided to go with a Yonex ADX200 driver.  Can anyone advise me
    on whether to go with a stiff or regular shaft?  I seem to be getting
    strong opinions from both sides.  Right now I play with PING woods that
    are the TT Lite, stiff shaft.  Never really warmed up to them!

    Read a good article on shafts in a local Palm Springs based magazine.
    The person quoted is the senior VP of marketing for Aldila shafts. 
    Summation is this...get fitted by a pro because you need to consider
    swing speed and type...NOT HANDICAP.  Thid means you also need to
    consider both torque and flex ...DIFFERENT QUALITIES.  
    
    70 mph - not aggressive (Typical senior or lady0
             Torque in 5-7 degree range.  Flexible light weight
             (60-65grams)
    
    80 mph - 200 to 220 yds (average player) 3-5 degrees torque, flex point
             mid to low on shaft
    
    100 mph - 245-250 yds  Happy with distance, looking to get a few more
              yards, 2-3 degrees torque, mid flex point, firm to stiff.
    
    110 mph+ - Very aggressive, 2 degrees or less, stiff to extra stiff
    
    This all has to do with the swing, because the idea of graphite is to
    use the torque to your benefit, allowing the club head to square up at
    contact.  See a pro and do it right. Especially for the cost of the
    drivers these days.
    
    

    At one of those weeklong golf schools I attended a few years ago they
    told us about their experiences with a swing timer.
    
    They said they measured the pros' swings in two modes, trying to
    see how fast they *could* swing, and then using their normal swing. The
    results showed the attempts to swing faster were actually SLOWER than
    their normal swing. It was true for all pros and the amount was not
    much, but significant.
    
    I guess it supports the idea that each of us has has a natural swing
    speed if we have truly grooved our swings. Attempts to swing
    unnaturally only slow it down. Remember these were pros for several
    years and had truly grooved swings.
    
    Bob

    
    reply -1
    
    HI Bob,
    
    	That's interesting data...  regarding the pro's clubhead speed
    	at or near their personal max on the average, and little to no
    	added speed when they attempt to crank it up.
    
    	Spending lots of hours at the driving range has proven that fact,
    	how many times have you torched one way out there with a nice
    	fluent swing, then (thinking wow, I barely swung hard) try to add
    	some REAL bang to it... and can't come close! Seems everyone has
    	a personal maximum they can "swing" a golf club.... but when
        they/we try to exceed that speed by driving harder with the arms
    	forinstance,   the swing breaks down and the fluency is gone.
    
    	I only wish I could remember that fact!!!!
    
    	Walta  

    Stiff.
    
    --Jack