Conference 7.286::golf

    
    
      Welcome to the world of not being able to please anybody, no matter
    what you do.  I have been on our tournament committee for several
    years, up to this year.  There is a lot of work involved in setting
    up schedules and formats, not to mention the details for each and
    every tournament.
    
      Handicaps are the responsibility of the handicap committee.  Don't
    let that argument get in the way of tournament formats.  Be fair
    to the majority (if you can ascertain them) and vary the formats.
    Prior schedules and formats are a good source for what is popular.
    
      Low handicappers also have a large voice in the way a course is
    set up for tournament play, e.g. distances (where the tee markers
    are placed) and pin placements (usually tucked where skill is an
    advantage).  High handicappers need thier strokes when the course
    is set up "tough".  Its up to the tournament committee to be fair
    here as well.
    
      GOOD LUCK!!!

When I was in Myrtle Beach, we used an interesting system.  It was called
the Calloway(sp) (pronounce KAL-UH-WAY) system.  I don't know the specifics
but it goes something like this:

Handicap 0 - 5  deducts 1 hole
         6 - 10 deducts 1.5 holes
        10 - 15 deducts 2 holes

I don't think those are accurate but they are close.  Here's how it works:

Let's say your handicap is 4 and you shoot a 78.  According to the chart,
you get to deduct 1 hole score (your worst hole score).  Let's say you scored
a 6 on the 9th hole and that was your worst hole.  So your final score is a
72.  When we used it, you were not allowed to deduct your score for the 17th
or 18th hole but all the rest were candidates.

I felt this worked out very fair for everyone.  First place was like a 66
and last place wound up with a 73.

There may be other notes describing this system in this conference.  Anyone
else had experience with this?

Mike (I hate handicaps too but what can you do?)

      
    
    RE -1
    
      The problem with the player selecting the hole(s) they deduct
    is they are able to really manipulate thier final score.  Holes
    should be selected RANDOMLY with the exclusion of 17 and 18.  For
    example:  I get to select one hole to deduct from total.  I am
    one over for fifteen holes, I score 10 on sixteen and par 17 and
    18.  VOILA!  I'm nine under for the round - 63!

    
      For Callaway info see topic #42.  Unfortunately, I spelled
     it Calloway in the base note, so a DIR/TITLE wouldn't get it.
    
    -rick

    
    Rick,
    
    I just changed the title on #42 to CALLAWAY, I hope that is the
    correct way...
    
    Gene

>I felt this worked out very fair for everyone.  First place was like a 66
>and last place wound up with a 73.

Fair is a very subjective concept.  My handicap is a 16 and generally I
am very consistent a typical round may be 16 bogies, 2 pars.  I know other
16 handicappers that have a much higher standard deviation.  They may have
a round of 3 birdies, 8 pars, 2 bogies, 2 doubles, 3 triples.  They end up
benefiting more from the Callaway system.

My point is that there are enough different ways to play with the numbers
so someone isn't going to be happy.  If you have enough different types of
competition going on you will probably make everyone a little happier.  I
recently played at in a member/guest that had first, second, & third prizes
in the low gross, low net, & callaway categories.  It also had a closest
to the pin & long drive.  (You couldn't collect in more than one category).
In the end 9 out of 14 foursomes were happy.

Larry

    I've found that with Callaway tournaments the scores come out
    very even. I haven't quit figured out why, but they do.
    
    Back to the main subject...how do people feel about setting rules
    taking into consideration sandbaggers and cheaters? Format of play
    on just about all of the tournaments stays mostly the same from 
    year to year. (Club approves/disproves tournament schedule in Spring--
    at this club, if you do something different from previous years, you
    never here the end of it. I've decided that our (1989 T-committee's)
    slogan will be "but that's not how it was done last year"!)
    
    My problem has been dealing with low handicap golfers who are upset
    about how we are awarding prizes. I stand firmly on the fact that
    the USGA handicap system allows for all golfers to win a handicapped
    tournament, but the low handicap golfers claim that they can't win
    because of the sandbaggers and cheaters. I don't think it's right
    to set the rules based on the possibility that people will cheat
    to win.
    
    Patti  

>    My problem has been dealing with low handicap golfers who are upset
>    about how we are awarding prizes. I stand firmly on the fact that
>    the USGA handicap system allows for all golfers to win a handicapped
>    tournament, but the low handicap golfers claim that they can't win
>    because of the sandbaggers and cheaters. I don't think it's right
>    to set the rules based on the possibility that people will cheat
>    to win.
    
     Patti, Your choices are limited because you can never stop people
     who want to reverse engineer their handicap.  (Just like you'll never
     stop speeding).  You can try the following:

     - More gross prizes but less value per prize,
     - Play at less than 100% of handicap,  (of course the high handicappers
       will complain that the low handicappers then have an unfair advantage.)
     - Change the tournament to a different system.  Maybe Stableford, that
       way everyone will be so confused they won't know what hit them.

     In the end remember that you'll never please all of the people all of
     the time.

     Larry

    
    Other possibilities are to change the format from Low Gross and Low
    Net (which takes forever to play especially with many high
    handicappers) to; 
    
    1.  Scramble 
    2.  Point Quota
    3.  Two Man Best Ball (A player & B player)
    
    It's been my experience that the players that complain about high
    handicaps are the players that sandbag invertedly!  What I mean
    by inverted sandbagging is that they will take a lower score than
    they really scored on a hole or will post a lower score than they
    really had.  Some people like to have a lower handicap just to be
    able to say they are an "x" handicap.

    RE. .9>  ANY FOOL THAT WANTS TO SHAVE STROKES OFF THEIR HANDICAP
    BY TAKING LOWER SCORES THAN THEY ACTUALLY GOT CAN PLAY ME ANYTIME.
    I WILL GLADLY TAKE ALL THE EXTRA STROKES THEY DON'T WANT!!! As for
    sandbagging, it is so common in all handicap levels that most tourn-
    aments are a joke. I see the scoresheets posted every week in the
    pro shops at the various courses I play at and people are always
    winning with net 60's or even lower. I feel that a handicap level
    is something that you play to occasionally and sometimes better
    with a tremendous round but not something that you beat every time
    you play. And also, it is not just high handicappers that cause
    slow play!!!! I see a lot of so called "better" players wasting
    a lot of time lining up their shots from every conceivable direction,
    toss some grass three or four times to see if the wind might have
    changed in the last 10 seconds, back off from a putt because someone
    passed gas three holes away, etc.....oh well, its been one of those
    weeks!!!
    
    THE MAD HACKER

Re .3:

>      The problem with the player selecting the hole(s) they deduct
>    is they are able to really manipulate thier final score.  Holes
>    should be selected RANDOMLY with the exclusion of 17 and 18.  For
>    example:  I get to select one hole to deduct from total.  I am
>    one over for fifteen holes, I score 10 on sixteen and par 17 and
>    18.  VOILA!  I'm nine under for the round - 63!


Somehow I don't follow this.  Let's assume that your handicap allows you
to deduct one hole from your final score.  And let's take your example of
socring a 10 on the sixteenth hole.  You say you are 1 over on the other
17 holes.  Assuming 16 was a par 4, you would finish at 7 over total.  On
a par 72 course, this gives you a 79.  Now you deduct 1 hole (the 10 you
got on 16) and that gives you a score of 69 and not a 63.

The holes that you deduct are deducted from your final score.  It basically
works out that if you have a low handicap, you have to play more holes.  It's
equivalent to a 20 handicapper playing only 16 holes and a 1 handicapper playing
all 18 holes and then comapring scores.

Hope that helps to clarify how the system works.

Mike

    
    RE: 11
    
    Mike,
    
       I have played this scoring method twice.  Once the scorers selected
    the holes to be deducted after the tournament started by a lottery
    type pieces of paper out of a hat.  That way nobody knew what holes
    were candidates to be deducted.  These holes did not count in the
    total before deducting the sc on that hole.  This applyed for only
    those holes you were eligible to deduct.  I tougjt this method worked
    well.
    
      Next time, the publicized which hole had been drawn, if the majority
    of the holes drawn were on the front nine, it might have been
    different.  But, 12, 14, 15 and 16 happened to be the first couple
    of holes in the eligibility sequence.  You should have seen the
    scores n the 12th hole, a straight, open 325 yd par 4!!! Double
    digits for even cs.  Imagine if they had been allowed to
    chose which hole thduct

    RE: .9 
    
    You make an excellent point. I have heard several of the lower
    handicap golfers say that they wouldn't post a bad score because
    it would make their handicap go up. If they only post their best
    rounds and they don't play their best in tournaments, then it's
    their own fault that they "can't win".
    
    Thanks for the different perspective.
    
    Patti

There's another side to the "hollywood handicapper"  When I 
first joined my current club I met some guys on the first tee
one afternoon.  We had a match, just a small one, $2.00 press
at 2 down.  There were 2 6's, a four and me (maybe 10 at the 
time?).  Anyway this 4, who is my partner, shoots a million 
and we get killed.  After the match one of the opponents 
shakes my hand and says "Welcome to Burlington Country Club!"
I checked and this guy didn't turn in the big number that day.
Of course these guys knew that my partner bozo was probably
a 15 but had a good laugh.  Bozo has since left the club 
because  he couldn't afford the matches.

One club I belonged to had an interesting way of determining
handicaps.  The chairman of the handicap committee (aka Dr.
Pencil) made it a point to play with all the members.  When 
the sheets came out he would go over it and slash anybody
whose handicap appeared out of line with that person's games.
He said that 'you have the potential to play to a 10 and even
though the computer says 14, you get 12.'  It's subjective for
sure, but in the time I was there I didn't run into very many
sandbaggers and I NEVER met a "hollywood handicapper".



						KO

    Personally I think there is only one ultimate solution. 
    
    
    
    Get good enough to play scratch. Then only play scratch.
    
    
    Otherwise know who your playing with.
    
    
    Tom

    Posting only your lowest scores is not the problem if the low
    handicapper keeps the time differential in mind. If this year he
    or she shoots 4 79's and 10 87's and only posts the 79's, the 
    MGA system would only pick up and "star" the 4 79's anyway.
    It's the low handicapper who has REALLY lost it and can't break
    86 for a whole summer BUT continues to live off his last years
    low scores is the one that's really "giving his money" away
    for the sake of his golf ego.
              You see it all the time . But you can
    tell a 5 or 6 "swing" from a 14 or 15 "swing" if you pay attention.