Conference 7.286::golf

    I can't explain why the men behind you acted the way they did (I
    wasn't there).  
    
    Let me address some points in your note, though.  Because the 
    pace of play on a course is slow, this does not mean your pace
    of play should match that pace.  You should still play quickly
    even if the group in front of you is slow.  If they see you waiting
    on every shot, maybe they will get the message to speed up their
    play.  (Maybe the men behind you felt you were overly slow while
    putting - remember, they were out in the fairway (or tee?) waiting 
    to hit while you were playing). 
    
    Golf is supposed to be a relaxing game.  This does not mean you
    should have to wait 10 minutes between every shot.  Nor does it
    mean a round of golf should take six hours.  This is not my idea
    of relaxation.
    
    Remember, the Games biggest problem today is SLOW PLAY.  Let's
    speed the game up and still make it enjoyable.
    
    Hit 'em straight,
    Dan
    
    N.B. Pam,  please don't take this note as a criticism of your play,
         I just wanted to make a few points.
     

    Two points
    
    1) Can't really tell from .0 why the threesome was upset. I might
    ask the question whether the rude response by your husband was
    preceeded by a conversation about the slow play and why the upset.
    
    2) I can't agree with .1. If two groups in front of you are backed
    up it makes no sense to harrass the group immediately in front of
    you. It just shows a lack of maturity. I don't enjoy slow play either
    but generally the group immediately in front of me is not the problem.
    
    Jamming up the back of the group in front of you doesn't help anything
    if they are not the problem. Matching the pace of the group in front
    of you does not slow the play down.
    
    Dj

    re: .1 and .2
    
    My implication was that the group in front was holding up play.
    Sorry for the non-clarity.
    
    I have to disagree with your "matching the pace" of play quote.
    I feel this leads to overall slow play on a course.  "Why should
    I play quickly, everyone else is going slow."  I don't agree with
    this mentality.  
    
    There is nothing wrong with being ready to hit (putt) when it is your 
    turn, taking five practice swings before every shot, quickly moving
    off a green to the next tee when you are finished with a hole, waving
    up on par 3's, etc

    Sorry, I posted the last reply too quickly, some corrections:
      
     > turn, taking five practice swings before every shot, quickly moving
    
     this should say "taking only one practice swing before a shot"
    
    
    Following guidelines for fast play is not a sign of immaturity and
    does not cause "jamming up behind the group in front".
    
     Dan

    I don't think the group in the front was causing the slow play.
    I just think it was the amount of groups on the course and who
    knows which one was causing the slow play (which actually was quite
    quick if you ask me).  I could see that the group in front of us
    was keeping up with the group in front of them and so on and so
    on.  Nobody appeared to by goofing off.  It just seemed like the
    course was at capacity and people were going as quickly as possible.
    
    As far as the rude response from my husband, they deserved it. 
    They were VERY obnoxious.  They didn't kindly yell to ask if the
    could play through (which they wouldn't have gone anywhere anyway).
    They were screaming like they were pi**ed off at the world and that
    there should be nobody on the course but them.   They NEVER caught
    up to us when we were teeing off so it couldn't have been that
    slow.  I mean what are you supposed to do.  As long as you are keeping
    up to the group in front of you, shooting when ready, getting off
    the green as quickly as possible.  Is this a big race to see who
    gets to the clubhouse first.  
    
    I totally understand people not wanting to wait around every time
    it's there turn to swing.   We have had twosomes come up behind
    us and we gladly ask them if they would like to play through.
    Even if we are a 4-some at the first tee we will as a 2some to 
    play before us if they would like.  Let's face it, 2 people can
    play twice as fast as 4 can.    I just don't understand some jerks
    like the ones behind us.   We weren't holding them up and there
    is no need to be so rude.   It almost ruined a great day, but then
    again I don't let people like that get to me too much.  
    
    Pam

    What's really a drag is to have some super-aggressive idiots in
    back of you who try to get you to speed it up by hitting while you're
    still within their range; while you're standing on the fairway waiting
    for Moe, Larry, Curly and Shemp to finish plumb-bobbing their 3-inch
    putts and get off the green.
    
    I've finally come to the realization that as long as people are allowed
    to go onto a golf course with no more qualification than the greens
    fees, slow play is inevitable. It takes only one group to destroy
    everyone's tempo. The worst thing you can do is to pay too much
    attention to it. You'll really ruin your day if you fret and fume
    about the clowns ahead of you, even if you're justified. Until every
    public course hires rangers to keep things moving, we're going to
    have to tolerate the turtles. I once walked off a course after 12
    holes in 4.5 hours, went to the clubhouse and got a refund on the
    back 9...if we all did that, maybe something would be done?
    
    Frank
         

    RE: all previous;
    
        The previous note and replys are just an example of why all
    public golf courses should have appropiate personal monitoring play.
    If a Marshall would've been out on the course the individuals who
    were being obnoxious would've been asked to straighten out or leave.
    
       This is why so many of the new courses being built in N.E. are
    going to be private or semi-private at most, even though the price
    may be high you know you'll be able to play an enjoyable round of
    golf and not have to worry if "Larry, Darryl & Darryl" are behind
    you ruing your game.
    
    Tony

     What the bozos behind you should have done was walk up to you on
    a tee and say "Excuse me, we seem to be playing a bit faster, would
    you mind if we play through? We'll let you hit up on the par threes,
    and please hit away any time we're out of range". Then, even if
    you don't think they can go any where, a confrontation is avoided,
    and, if you wish, you can let 'em play through. We asked some guys
    at Stow once, and they said, "if we let you through (this was on
    #14 North) we'll have to wait for you" (Earth to Bozo...). Anyway,
    they were on 17 fairway while we were working on our second beer
    in the clubhouse.
     I firmly believe that if everyone knew what they were doing, you
    could have a 4-some on every tee, fairway and green and play in
    4 hrs or less with no waiting.
    
    --The Skoal Bandit

    to all of you. 
    golf is a terrific game that you have to play relaxed. I'm not sure
    if it is all that relaxing a game however. 
    slow play is a problem at most of the public courses here in Canada
    as well. Regardless of the numbers of marshalls or even if you have
    crossover tee times an outing will stretch beyond 5 hours at most
    courses.
    
    Don't worry Be happy!! you're on the course we aren't yet

    
    If someone comes up to me and asked to play through, I'm usually
    more then willing to let them play. I usually play pretty fast,
    but I'll still let them play. However if some joker decides to hit
    his ball down the fairway while I'm still in range, I feel this
    is a mistake, so I just hit his ball back to him. 8*) Then of course
    if he feels inclined to come to "Talk" to me about it, he better
    bring along his two buddies also.
    
    Mike

    Mike,  I love your way of handling the jerks.   My husband is pretty
    big so maybe I should give it a try.
    
    
    Pam
    
    
    ps.  Just kidding.  I wouldn't dare.   The game is a GREAT sport
    and I refuse to sink to their level.   It still sounds like a good
    idea.   I'd love to see their face when their ball comes flying
    back.

    I happen to believe that the real problem might actually be the
    owners/managers of the golf courses - especially the public tracks.
    
    The numbers are fairly easy to understand:
    
    	Length of golfing day = apx. 14 hours (peak)

    	Length of round       = apx.  4 hours (I wish)
    
    	Effective day length  =      10 hours
    
    Given these assumptions lets look at the possibilities:
    
    Tee Time
    Interval	Groups/Hour	Golfers/Hour	Total Golfers	Percent
   ========================================================================

    12 min.	    5               20              200           --
    
    10 min. 	    6               24              240          +20%
    
     8 min.         7.5             30              300          +50%
    
    =======================================================================
    
    Granted these numbers do not represent any scientific study but
    do indicate that a golf course could increase its capacity if it
    were able to decrease the intervals between tee times (SPEED UP
    PLAY).
    
    This would be welcomed news to those of us who compete weekly for
    a decent time at a course.

    But what is the incentive for the golf course?
    
    I can't think of any. Why should a course owner try to put more
    people through his/her course? Why should they try to push up to
    50% more golfers through and cause more wear and tear on the course
    when they don't have to do it?
    
    Face it - they have a captive audience. Where else are you going
    to go?
    
    Even jumping from the standard 12 minute interval to ten minutes
    just yields them a 20% increase. That's real simple. You may have
    noticed that the greens fees at your favorite track have increased.
    (Let's say that it started out at $20 + 20% = $24?) They have instantly
    answered the problem of increased revenue without increased wear.
    
    Add to this the fact that if they don't 'really' care about the
    problem and try to rectify it then they don't have to worry about
    the hassles involved with inviting S-L-O-W players to leave the
    course. The marshals that most courses put out there do little more
    than watch play and find golf balls (when they aren't fast asleep
    in their carts).
    
    Sorry - I may be flaming but take this example:
    
    On a sunny weekend last year we were fortunate enough to obtain
    a tee time a Poquoy Brook in Lakeville. Unfortunately we were booked
    right behind a foursome of boobs who had every intention of relaxing
    their way to a six hour round. When we made the turn in over three
    hours I made it my mission to address the problem with the owner
    whom I have known for many years. To my surprise he lagged beside
    us as we played #10 and witnessed every act but the juggling elephants
    as the circus made its endless way up the fairway. Twenty minutes
    later the group finished the hole and the owner announced 'no problem',
    wheeled his cart around and sped off in the direction of the clubhouse.
    
    I think we have an issue of concern here - only the golfers are
    the one's who are concerned with slow play. It should be the
    responsibility of all of us to do those little, time-saving things
    that 'subtract' up to a relaxed four hour round.
    
    In the defense of one public course - The Captains in Brewster -
    let me say that they appear to follow a different policy and push
    a lot of foursomes through the course on any day. I played the course
    three times last year and found that the course just couldn't handle
    the wear and was in pitiful shape by early afternoon. So maybe slow
    play is the salvation - at least of our courses.
    
    

    I'm not a fast player or a slow player, therefore I haven't had much of
    problem with this type of thing.  However, whenever I'm being pushed by
    a group, I let  them  play through (usually on the next par 3).  If I'm
    waiting on a group, I usually try and play through them (usually on the
    next par 3).
    
    One time we were following a foursome that was very slow.  We got up to
    them and asked if we could play through.  They said, "Why, the group in
    front of us is playing slow too." I  said,  "Fine,  when we catch up to
    them we'll ask to play through them too." We  played  through and never
    did catch up with the group in front of them.
    
    Anyway, I don't mind having people play through me (as  long as they're
    not hitting on to the green while I'm on it, or  something  like that),
    and I don't see why people get upset when I want to  play through them.
    All this says is that I play at a different pace.
    
    +- Mark

    Come to think of it, I only played Pelham C.C. one other time which
    was last fall.  The problem was exactly the opposite.   There is
    a sign which states ABSOLUTELY NO 5-somes.  No I imagine that this
    is a known rule at 99% of the courses.  Well there was a group of
    5 teenager boys (around 18) that payed for 2 and 3 and then teamed
    up together as soon as they got out of site of the coutry club.  
    We patiently waited and waited and waited and waited .............
    On the 3rd hole one of them passed us and said "Hope you guys 
    have a LOT of time on your hands today" and cracked up laughing.
    We were kind of surprised at his comment and just looked at him
    as he walked away.  Well this kept going on and on and finally my
    husband asked them if they could hurry it up a little (as they were
    all standing on the green trying to add up their scores and having
    a good old time.   This finally got them to move along and we didn't
    have a problem after that.
    
    Looks like there is the same problem with golf courses as there
    is with the ski resorts.
    
    
                   OVER CROWDED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Pam
    

    	A couple of comments.  One, I've at times been asked by the
    group behind us, which usually has less players than mine, if they
    could play thru.  If I think it is a reasonable request, I'm more
    than happy to accomadate them.  But there are those groups who as
    people have said, are obnoxious, rude and really a pain, and then
    have the nerve to come up and ask if they can play thru.  Nuff said
    about that.
    	As far as hitting a guys ball back to him/her when they hit
    into you, I would not do it.  Besides the fact that it will probably
    end up in a violent situation, there could be a number of reasons
    for it, that may not be excusable, but at least may not have been
    intentional.  I played one time, where on the 1st tee at East Mountain
    CC in Westfield Mass., the starter who happened to be the club pro,
    was pushing groups off the 1st tee.  It was early in the season,
    and it was my 1st time playing that year.  The hole is a short par
    4, about 280 yds, and there was a group just walking onto the green
    when the guy told me to go ahead and hit.  I expressed my concern
    about reaching the green, and he said "B.S., you'll never drive
    the green, just go ahead and hit.  I did, and rolled my 3 wood to
    4 feet from the hole, and the ball went right thru one of the guys
    legs who was standing on the green.  When we got to the green, the
    guy gave me the nastiest look, and simply said, you could have yelled
    fore, and you shouldn't have hit anyway.  I told him, we all yelled
    fore, and you guys never moved, and that the Pro had made me tee
    off, or not play.  Anyway, he beleived me as the Pro was the same
    way when he teed off.  He didn't hit the ball back at me, which
    just would have made the entire situation worse.
    
    Beak

       Rudeness on a golf course is never (well, almost never)
       appropriate.  Unfortunately, being rude to someone who acts rudely
       tends only to make the problem worse.  If at all possible, the
       best way to handle rude golfers is to ignore them and/or bring
       their actions to the attention of the ranger or course management.
       
       If you are playing in a slow group, letting people play through
       is ***NOT*** a good solution.  The group that has played through
       will play faster, but everyone else on the golf course is still
       slowed down.  If you're in a slow group, the right thing to
       do is to encourage the group to get their mind on the matter
       at hand and move along more quickly.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    I agree with .15. I usually play at a fairly quick pace. One of
    the game's biggest problems is slow play. Six hour rounds are one
    of the reasons why I rarely play on the weekends. Yes, I appreciate
    those who let my group play through, but consider this for a moment,
    if your in a group and the third or fourth foursome has to play
    through you, then your group is playing too slow.
     I wish I had the magical solution to slow play, but a variety of
    little things contribute to the problem. Some of them are taking
    too many practice swings, excessive time lining up a putt, always
    being in the woods, etc. I cannot understand why folks cannot finish
    a round in 4 1/2 hours max.
     I wonder if slow play is more of a problem on public courses than
    on private ones. Anybody care to speculate ?
    
    
    
                     Ken

    At private (or clubs which allow members only on weekends) slow
    play is usually less of a problem because you have to associate
    and see fellow members (and the pro) on a regular basis. This peer         
    pressure usually does the trick.

    Slow play caused by play out of or into the woods is normal. Hell
    we've all been there before and will be there again.
    
    I think that most slow play that happens and can be eliminated is
    because some people don't think about the next shot until it's their
    turn in the rotation. They are on the course but not concentrating
    on what they are going to do next. Most times they wait until it's
    their turn before they begin to comtemplate what club to hit. Rather
    than being ready. 
    
    
    
    
    Tom

    IN RESPONSE TO YOUR COMMENT ABOUT THE INTERVAL BETWEEN START TIMES.
    TWELVE MINUTES MAY BE STANDARD IN YOUR AREA BUT AT ALL OF THE COURSES
    I PLAY (public tracks) HERE, THE STANDARD INTERVAL IS SEVEN OR EIGHT
    MINUTES. THE COURSE WOULD SURE SEEM EMPTY IF WE COULD HAVE THOSE
    TWELVE MINUTE STARTS!!! STILL ONLY TAKES 4.5 TO 5 HOURS TO PLAY
    A ROUND THOUGH. I DO LOVE TO PLAY A ROUND!!!
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    Becker,
    
    		I think one problem with East Mountain is the length
    of the first and the tenth holes. I think it's always best to has
    both these hole be valid par fours. It's a lot easier for four
    individuals to walk up and play four second shots while you wait
    then have then putt out as would be the case on a par three or
    have the potential of driving the hole. In the case of East mountain
    it's just a case of poor design. Then again if they bunchered the
    farway and the front of the green this would cause you to hit a
    3 wood,4 wood or iron off of the tee and would solve the problem.
    
    
    Tom

    
       9 out of 10 times, slow play is a result of looking for golf
     balls.  It is exaggerated when the ENTIRE foursome(or group)
     looks for one player's ball. Figure the time spent looking for
     the ball, the time spent for each player to get back to their
     ball and it starts to really add up.  
    
       Look at the pros sometimes.  Most spend oodles of time lining
     up and preparing their shots, yet look at how long it takes them
     to play 18 (4 1/2 hours maximum).  The difference, they have
     forecaddies and marshalls spotting their balls. Zero time is 
     spent looking for them.
    
       If we as public link golfers, better manage ourselves and the
     foursomes we play in (I agree with Mr Topaz), then maybe we can
     discover the 4 hour round again.  Pay more attention to where
     your playing partner(s) hit their shots.  No more than 2 players
     in one group should be looking for a lost ball at a time. Don't
     spend more than a couple of minutes looking for a lost ball.
    
       All the other stuff mentioned is minor in comparison.
    
    -rick
    
    

    We played 18 in 3 1/2 hours on Saturday, that may be a new record
    at our course, we have a marshal and seldom if ever run longer than
    4 1/2 hours because they remove you from the course if you hold
    things up badly.  It is not uncommon for the marshal to hold a group
    on the turn to allow 4 groups or more by.  This isn't very popular
    with greens fee players (that's probably why we have so few!). 
    Our membership is very well behaved, and knows an awful beating
    (read verbal abuse from other members)
    will occur if you back up the course.  

    
    Rick

    Here at our public course, they stagger the tee times between 6
    & 8 minutes.  Now, this is a county course, so the manager is in
    competition with the rest of the county courses (maybe he gets paid
    a commission by beatinfg everyone else).  Well, needless to say,
    6 hour rounds are the norm here.  And, the manager's out there trying
    to speed up play (so he can get more people on).  I've been waiting
    in the clubhouse to play a fast nine in the afternoon, and if the
    group doesn't come off the 9th hole in the 6-8 minutes behind the
    previous group, the manager will let another foursome tee off on
    the tenth between two foursomes. Talk about overloading the course.
    
    On another thought, waving people up on the par three's.  Maybe
    it's just the overloading of our course, but if we continually wave
    people up through the par three's, there is usually one or two
    foursomes standing on the next tee waiting to tee off.  This usually
    results in even slower play.
    
    Everytime I've been invited over to the local country club, it's
    been the country club atmosphere of tee off when your ready, play
    at your own speed, and there is usually no one playing within 2-4
    hole of you.
    
    Tom
    

    re: back a few
    
    Beak...
    
    4 feet from the hole from 280 yards away! Wow.... Let's face it,
    generally speaking, this is a career shot for many... so I feel
    the starter SHOULD have got you going...
    
    BTW... did you get your PAR.... :^)
    
    Smitty

    Set mode/flame = on
    
    I still have to think that one of the major reasons for slow play is
    not bad scores.  When I was first learning to play 110 was not unusual
    but we still finished in under 4 hours.  What I've seen is people
    taking 4 or 5 practice swings then standing over the ball taking a nap.
    Apparently they are thinking of all the things they should do during 
    the swing (head down, arm straight, eye on the ball and on and on and
    on)  Then they dribble the shot and go through the ritual again.  The 
    time for all that "thinking" is on the practice tee and not the golf
    course.  All you really do is fill your mind useless thoughts.  I say
    step up and hit the SOB before it hits you.  The other problem is
    lining up the 3 footer for 12.  Who the hell cares whether it's 12 or
    13!  People seem to me to be selfish and rude.  They could care less
    who they hold up.  After all it's THEIR SPACE!  (I'll tell them what to
    do with their space.)
    
    set mode/flame = off
    
    						KO

    RE:.26
    
        Couldn't have said it better! Hear, Hear !

    	I made the putt for Eagle!!!  And I honestly doubt that I was
    the only one who drove the green that day, or has done it before.
    The hole plays as a slight Dogleg left, and if you can draw your
    tee shot, you have a fair chance of hitting the green.  Especially
    on a day where the grass is short and the ground fairly hard, as
    it was that day, and usually is at this course.  This particular
    course, East Mountain C.C., is open almost all year round, and the
    owners are just trying to get as many people on and off the course
    as posible, which, in my opinion, just ruins your entire day.  I
    have played there only once since then, and my Aunt is married to
    the greens keeper, who is the Son of the owner.  I could play for
    free just about anytime I wanted to.  But I'd rather pay and actually
    enjoy myself.  The Pro there, another Son of the owner, is really
    a very snobby and egotistical person.  He didn't beleive I could
    drive the green, and even after I did it, he said it was just luck.
    Well, while it may not be my normal or average drive, I can hit
    them long.  He should have respected my concern, and accepted the
    fact that there are probably 10,000 golfers in western Mass., who
    can out drive him and reach that green.
    	And Tom, I did hit a 3-wood, not a driver, but you're right
    in that the hole should be lengthened, or designed in such a way
    as to deter people from trying to drive the green.
    
    Beak

    
    I play in the Amherst NH league, and my partner and I are usually
    the last ones out because we both work the farthest from the course
    and are usually the last ones there. What bothers me most are the
    idiots behind us (usually a 2-some) wanting to play through. I refuse
    to let them play, telling them that this is a league and they'll
    have to wait their turn. Complaining to the management is like going
    home to cry to moma. Either case will do little good. If an *sshole
    is bothering me, I handle it myself. The clubhouse is either too
    far away or by the time I get there the jerks will be gone, or the
    managment won't do anything anyways. During my golfing career I've
    hit about 4 balls back to the *sshole behind me who was trying to
    push me along. Only once did one of them walk up to confront me,
    but backed down when he realized that I wasn't going to take any
    of his *hit. I'm not promoting violence on the golf course, but
    sometimes it's the only answer. Unless of course you want to run
    home to moma.
    
    Mike

       re .29 (MYVAX::DIAMOND):
       
       > What bothers me most are the idiots behind us (usually a 2-some)
       > wanting to play through. 
       
       From the Rules of Golf, Section I ("Etiquette"):
                               
           "In the absence of special rules, two-ball matches should have
           precedence over and be entitled to pass any three- or
           four-ball match." 
           
       And from the same section:     
           
           "Any match playing a whole round is entitled to pass a
           match playing a shorter round."
       
       Since the Amherst league generally plays in foursomes, the
       twosome behind is entitled to play through you.  Also, any
       It would seem that the people behind you have every right to ask
       to play through -- would you like to reconsider calling these
       people "idiots", "assholes", and "jerks"?  
       
       Instead of getting pissed off, it might be more useful to first
       learn the rules, then be more conscious of etiquette, and finally
       play with a bit more speed.
       
       --Mr Topaz
                                  

    Everytime we get on the topic of slow play things get ugly.  We
    need some positive topics to discuss.  I made the mistake of expressing
    myself on this issue in this conference before... NEVER again. 
      
    What do you think campers?  Can we make better use of our conference?
    
    Rick

    
    I think this is a topic that is of great concern to all of us and
    there are varying opinions on the subject. I think that it is
    good to discuss all aspects of the problem, it just may help
    some people handle the situations better than they might have
    without the discussion... And sure some people VERY strong feelings
    about avoiding slow play, but lets try to keep the swearing out
    of it and keep things down to a dull roar...!
    
    Thanks
    Gene (doing some rare moderating)

    Re:  twilight league & two-somes
    
    A lot of courses I have been playing usually post a sign or a schedule
    somewhere that tells everyone what nights they have leagues.  The
    implied message being that you should not interfere with the league.
    
    It seems kind of silly to me for a twosome to have teed off after a
    league has sent all its foursomes out and then expect to play through.
    If they play through the last foursome of the league, then what do they
    do?  Race through everyone else?  If I go to a course and they have a
    league playing that night, I stay out of the league's way.
    
    When I was a member at Wyantenuck, if you interfered with the men's
    twilight league (it's always Tuesday night) you got severely chastised
    (and these guys did not pay extra money to play in the twilight
    league).  The general rule of thumb was you stayed out of their way.
    Then again, public courses are very different.
    
    I guess it all depends on how the course management feels this should
    be handled.  Does Stow Acres ever have a problem of this nature?
    
    IMHO,
    Mike

       Mike, I agree with you that it serves no purpose for any group to
       play through unless there's at least a full hole open in front of
       the preceding group.  (Incidentally, it's possible that the
       twosome might have teed off on the first hole, and then got behind
       a league foursome that teed off from the 10th.)
       
       I guess I'd like to see more civility on the course, on the part
       of everyone involved.
       
       --Mr Topaz 

	Ok, first off.  Yes, Beak can hit the 1st green at East Mt. but
	I sincerely doubt that he made the putt !!  (heh, heh)  I'll bet
	he pull hooked it into the stream on 2 besides...  Beak, make
	sure to let me know when you come up here.

	Anyway, I agree with .19.  THE MAIN reason for slow play is not
	being ready.  If you can be near your ball, get ready!!  Line up
	your putt if you're not in the way.  How many times do you hit
	the ball and then the next guy is still debating on what club
	to hit?  If you're halfway aware, you can even take your practice
	swing at the same time.  So many times I've hit my putt and then
	had to watch someone else crouch down and read their putt.  Many,
	many times this does not need to be the case.  

	Also, I've heard too many times the comment "I work all week and
	I'm in no hurry today".  This happened 2 weeks ago at Stowe but
	he turned out to be a quick player, thank God.

	And... Greg Norman is a pain in the butt!!!  Hopefully, he'll
	watch a Masters video and hear all the negative comments about
	his slow play.  A rebuttal would be very interesting.

	Tom

    
    
    2nd off, the 1st hole at East (pit) Mountain is almost drivable
    for .35 on a windy day ! I've hit the bunkers many times !
    (9 iron i think, cinderella story from Augusta !)
    
    as for .35 -< Wake up, it's your turn!! >-  I've had to wake him
    from his nap on his backswing a few times !
    
    anyway, I agree that if the course is reserved for league play then
    you stay out of their way, if your behind a league, hit two balls
    and get in some quality practice! 
    I know I would never want to get in the middle of our league if
    I didn't have to, thats suicide !!
    
    ace
    

    
    Mr Topaz,
    
    At Amherst where I play the leagues have the right of way. This
    is a rule at Amherst. If we start letting everyone through we'd
    never get done with our league. The first 4 weeks is real rough,
    because the sun goes down so early. I can't remember how many times
    I've played the 9th and 18th in the dark.
    
    Mike

    Unfortunatly, (or fortunatly depending on perspective), our club
    is gradually eliminating leagues because of slow play.  We lost
    one because of price and another because the day they want to play
    is now used for the PIAA high school league.  A vote was taken at
    the end of last year and no new leagues will be accepted at our
    course, we only have two left.  So keep it moving folks, or you
    may be without a course!
    
    Rick

    RE. .17 I don't get to play many private courses so most of my
    playing is done on muni's. Most of the year it only takes 4.5
    to 5 hours for a round. During the spring however, that time
    easily balloons to 5.5 to 6 hours mostly due to the excessive
    numbers of players on the course. It seems that most of the slow
    play occurs on or near the greens; not putting out, totaling scores
    while still on the green, etc. Invariably, the group that is fooling
    around on the green, will probably not be very swift at getting
    off the next tee either. I don't enjoy rushing around the course
    as fast as I can but I try to keep my mind on the task at hand.
    IF YOU WANT TO PLAY, COME ON OUT. IF YOU WANT TO FOOL AROUND, GO
    TO THE 19TH HOLE INSTEAD!!!
    

>    I play in the Amherst NH league, and my partner and I are usually
>    the last ones out because we both work the farthest from the course
>    and are usually the last ones there. What bothers me most are the
>    idiots behind us (usually a 2-some) wanting to play through. I refuse
>    to let them play, telling them that this is a league and they'll
>    have to wait their turn. Complaining to the management is like going
>    home to cry to moma. Either case will do little good. If an *sshole
>    is bothering me, I handle it myself. The clubhouse is either too
>    far away or by the time I get there the jerks will be gone, or the
>    managment won't do anything anyways. During my golfing career I've
>    hit about 4 balls back to the *sshole behind me who was trying to
>    push me along. Only once did one of them walk up to confront me,
>    but backed down when he realized that I wasn't going to take any
>    of his *hit. I'm not promoting violence on the golf course, but
>    sometimes it's the only answer. Unless of course you want to run
>    home to moma.
>    
>    Mike

    
    Mike,
    	   I'm sorry you feel this way.  I used to be like that when
    I was 18 years old, but I grew up.  I don't cry to momma, but handle
    it in a civilized way.  You seem to think the best way to handle
    it is with some kind of a confrontation, and hitting balls back
    at someone is a violent one.  I'm 6 foot 2 inches tall and weigh
    about 215 pounds, so I don't really have to be afraid of anyone,
    but I still have enough common sense, to realize that hitting the
    ball back and contibuting to the possibility of a violent situation,
    is nothing less than childish.  I can't stop you from expressing
    your opinion, you are entitled to it, but I don't have to agree
    with it, and I don't.  I've had people hit into me before, and I
    simply went back to them, or waited for them, and said in a way
    that would let them know I wasn't pleased, but still wasn't P.O.ed,
    that they could have at least yelled fore or something, and as long
    as they said I'm sorry, it won't happen again, I let it go at that.
    	Not to long ago, there was a group of golfers I read about in
    the paper, that were probably a lot like you.  One of them is now
    dead, after the group behind them, came up to confront them, and
    one of them burried a putter in the guys head.  Now there is a big
    difference between the guy who is dead, and the guy who is serving
    a life sentence for killing him, but I wouldn't want to be either
    one of them right now.  Neither one of them will ever play golf
    again!!!
    	Sorry for the rather lengthy reply.
    
    Beak

    re 569.5
    
    I haven't read through all 40 responses yet, but I think it's
    worth mentioning that swearing on the golf course can get you
    kicked off that course for good.
    
    I once was nearly hit by a ball coming off of the tee on the
    next hole--it came inches from my head--and was not accompanied
    by a "FOUR". Well, I was kind-of-upset, and I let a 4-letter
    word slip out. Nothing ever came of it but the guy who almost
    hit me threatened to turn me in; one of the people in my
    group used to run a course with her family and filled me in
    about being kicked off the course.
    
    I don't know if there's a written rule somewhere, but if you
    are just starting out golfing, it can't hurt to take this
    warning under advisement. Besides, responding to the rude
    players by swearing back only lowers you to their levels--
    you can better get to them by responding with a smile and a wave.
    
    P

    
    I've found that a good look back at a golfer or group who have hit
    into you is usually sufficient. If it happens a number of times
    I'd say then next step is to wait at the tee and politely ask that
    they give you a little more time to move on before they hit. If it
    continues, let them play threw. Heck it isn't worth getting hurt
    over. At the end of the round see the starter or owner and confront
    the offending group. I have seen a group thrown out of the 19th
    hole and told never to come back by using this technique. Sometimes
    it's tough enough not getting mad over your play let alone getting
    mad over someone elses foolish play. 
    I used to get pretty mad over golf and shots. It made me play worse
    and ruined it for everyone. That was a few years ago. Since then
    I've takes a different look at my game. I funnel the energy I used
    to use getting mad into productive energies trying to assess a shot
    and learning from it. I play each shot as a ame in itself. If it's
    good or bad I try and learn from the shot and then go on. It's helped
    my game and lowered my handicap.
    
    Tom

    	Thats a positive step Tom.  Glad to hear it.  Good luck with
    your continued improvement.
    
    Beak

    
    re .40
    
    I don't think it's childish to stick up for your rights as a golfer
    on a public/private course (which you pay dearly for). If someone
    is hitting his golfball at me purposely then this is a violation
    of my rights. On the golf courses I use to play when I was a kid
    there were a lot of those jerks playing. Asking them politly to
    stop - to them is a sign of weakness and the easiest way to get yourself
    badly hurt or killed (literly). Most of the time their punk highschool
    kids (usually been drinking). If you're the kind of person who lets
    other people walk all over you, thats your problem.
    
    Getting someone kicked off a course for life is rediculas. How is
    the management going to remember who they kicked off (their face,
    doubtfull). At Amherst I've yet to see the same person at the
    cash-register 2 times in a row.
    
    What a course needs is marshals throughout the course to stop childish
    behavior. However if there isn't anyone then who's going to do it???
    
    Mike

    RE .44
    
    	Silly me I forgot about those Punk highschool kids who are
    drinking.   By all means, if these are the people who have driven
    their ball into you, go ahead and smack it right back at them, and
    maybe hit one right in the eye.  And when they come running up to
    you, go ahead and beat the %#@$ out of them.  They have no right
    to be there anyway!!!  Damn punks!!!
    
    
    Do me a favor, don't come play in Western Mass.  Beak

    
    
    RE .45
    
    I suggest you reread my previous replies. You'll note that no where
    did I mention any use of violence nor did I advocate the use of
    any violence. If this is the way you try to win an argument by making
    up things as you go along, I suggest you graduate up to first grade.
    
    When some jerk is bothering you on a course you have one of 4 things
    to do.
    . Do nothing, and hope thy'll stop.
    . Tell management, and hope they'll do something.
    . Politely ask them to stop and hope they don't beat your brains
      in.
    . Lastly, confront them and hopefully they don't beat your brains
      in.

    It is of my experience (and the neighborhood I grew up in I've had
    a lot) that the best way to stop the jerks from harassing you and
    to keep you from getting killed is to confront them. If you don't
    have the stomic for I suggest you do nothing, and just let them
    ruin your golf game. Because politely asking jerks or telling
    management will just p*ss them off, and is the easiest way to start
    something. If someone pushes you and you don't push back, then they'll
    just keep pushing. This psyco kid I new played golf, and wouldn't
    hesitate to hit a ball at you. If you politely asked him to stop,
    he'd beat your brains in; if you told management he'd wait by your
    car, then beat your brains in, but if you confronted him he'd back
    of because he respected that (about the only thing in this world
    he did respect was power).

    Thank GOD it's a free country and each persons opinion is equally
    protected. 
    
    Mr Diamond,
    		I don't agree with you. Confrontation never solved anything
    but leads to further confrontation.... I'm not going to bother to
    continue this reply, You won't be convinced.
    
    
    Tom

================================================================================
Note 569.10              What the heck is the rush for?                 10 of 47
MYVAX::DIAMOND "No brag, Just fact."                 10 lines   6-APR-1989 14:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    If someone comes up to me and asked to play through, I'm usually
    more then willing to let them play. I usually play pretty fast,
    but I'll still let them play. However if some joker decides to hit
    his ball down the fairway while I'm still in range, I feel this
>    is a mistake, so I just hit his ball back to him. 8*) Then of course
>    if he feels inclined to come to "Talk" to me about it, he better
>    bring along his two buddies also.

    
================================================================================
Note 569.29              What the heck is the rush for?                 29 of 39
MYVAX::DIAMOND "No brag, Just fact."                 19 lines  10-APR-1989 15:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    I play in the Amherst NH league, and my partner and I are usually
    the last ones out because we both work the farthest from the course
    and are usually the last ones there. What bothers me most are the
    idiots behind us (usually a 2-some) wanting to play through. I refuse
    to let them play, telling them that this is a league and they'll
    have to wait their turn. Complaining to the management is like going
    home to cry to moma. Either case will do little good. If an *sshole
    is bothering me, I handle it myself. The clubhouse is either too
    far away or by the time I get there the jerks will be gone, or the
>    managment won't do anything anyways. During my golfing career I've
>    hit about 4 balls back to the *sshole behind me who was trying to
>    push me along. Only once did one of them walk up to confront me,
>    but backed down when he realized that I wasn't going to take any
>    of his *hit. I'm not promoting violence on the golf course, but
>    sometimes it's the only answer. Unless of course you want to run
>    home to moma.
    
    Mike
        

    
    Mike,
    	I've included a few of your replies to this topic, and if they
    don't suggest violence, then I guess I made a mistake, and I'll
    apologize for that.  But it seems to me that saying he better bring
    his 2 buddies along, doesn't mean so they can moderate the
    discussion!!!  And also saying I'm not promoting violence on the
    course, but sometimes it's the only answer, also doesn't backup
    your case very well.
    	Did you ever stop to think, that when a player has hit a ball
    into you, that it could have been unintentional?  Where as your
    hitting it back at them, is intentional, and in my opinion, is a
    crime.  You are intentionaly committing an act that could severely
    injure and possibly Kill another human being.  Also, again, in my
    opinion, you are the childish one.
    
    Beak

    	Hey c'mon Beak and Mike. This is starting to sound like the
    SPORTS note file with all this abusive point/counterpoint. Golfers
    are passive people, right? Except for the person who imbedded his
    putter into someone elses skull.
    
    						Keith

    
            What we need is......
    
    
    
                    ROBOGOLFER

    	Sorry, if it sounds like something out of the SPORTS note.
    I didn't intend that at all.  I just cannot and will not advocate
    hitting a ball at another golfer/group intentionally, and if my
    views/opinions on this discourage even 1 golfer from doing that,
    than I feel they're worth voicing.
    
    Beak

    Holy Cow, I just took up the game, only played 3 times in my life and
    all in the last 2 weeks, after reading this note I am scared to go out
    there!! Wonder if I can find my darts, no one ever threw a dart back at
    me that I can remember, sounds like a safer game.....
    
    Roy
    

    Sounds like a rathole to me. :^)
    
    I think we're talking about confrontations. But don't they
    depend on WHOM we're confronting? If they're 4 teenage punks
    we approach them one way if they're 4 middle aged women we
    would approach them another way. I don't agree with hitting
    the ball back at them but my "discussion" with the teenagers
    would be direct and to the point, whereas my discussion with
    the women would start out a bit different.
    I don't think Mike would drive a ball back at the women, and
    I'm sure a number of us know how to approach 4 jerks. Ie; With
    a smile, an, I'm sure you made a mistake, and, if you do it again
    I'll put my driver in an appropriate spot. Again depending on they're
    stance, demeaner, attitude, looks, etc.
    Assess the situation and common sense. 
    
    Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
    
    Russ

    
    Anybody that plays the course in Pelham (I think it is actually
    called Pine Valley) on the weekends particularly has  to be willing
    to take a loooonnnnnnnngggggggg time to play 18. To start with,
    as Pam mentioned, it is only 9 holes so you have to alternate people
    just starting out with those coming off of #9 and the course is
    very short, so there is no place for things to open up....!!!!!
    At least two of the par 4s are reachable the 1st being one of
    them, then the second is a par 3, etc... This is no excuse for
    people being jerks, but this is why play there will always be
    slow (oh ya, they don't have tee times either, atleast they didn't).
    
    I played 18 holes yesterday in three hours (that includes stopping
    after nine for a beer and hot dog) this was at Charmingfare (they
    just opened yesterday). This is the other extreem, but shows how
    little time is really needed to play 18 holes. BTW, when I was a
    couple years younger and when courses weren't as busy as they are
    these days, I played "81" holes in one day...! Those days are LONG
    gone and will never be seen by the players that are just taking
    up the game now...! I just hope that they continue to plan to
    build more courses to help with the overcrowding that we all are
    seeing now...

    Let's try to keep our cool and "do the right thing" both here in
    the notes file and out there on the crowded courses...!

    
    Gene

    Roy,
    
      Don't be discouraged by what you read in this topic.  Very few
    deaths occur on the golf course!  Starting a topic on slow play
    is a sure fire way to ensure a wide range of replies.  I have
    accidentally hit into people a time or two, and haven't had my brains
    bashed in yet.  I've also been on the other side and don't even
    give dirty looks at the group behind me.  99% of the time it is
    unintentional and the offender feels bad enough already.
    
    Rick_I'll_buy_you_a_beer_if_I_get_one_too_close!
    

    
    I wonder if turning to the offending group, bending over and picking
    up the offending ball, raising the offending ball and yelling
    
    "THANK'S"
    
    lowering the offending ball,placing the offending ball into your
    pocket and then driving off would be taken?? :-)
    
    
    Tom
    
    Just a thought

    On occasion, I've been known to step on the ball or otherwise provide
    a semi-buried lie.
    
    -Alan-

    
      ....and all this time I thought golf was suppose to be 
          a "gentlemen's game"?  
    
    -rick_who's_for_a_gentler_kinder_round

    
    RE .48
    
    I've had people hit into me Hundreds of times. 99.9999999% of the
    time it was unintentional. I'm talking about the jerks who hit into
    me every chance they get. One group in particular did it about 7
    times on the front 9 (once hitting my nephew in the back). Only
    once did I ever get mad at someone the first time he did it bacause
    it definetly wasn't unintentional. It was the 1st hole at Amherst
    one Sunday about 2 years ago. We're on the green finishing out putts
    (which went pretty fast, 3 of us playing only 2 putted each), and
    this jerk about 40 yards out with a clear view of us on the green
    and the 2 foursums on the next tee, decided to hit on the green
    to move us along. That one I didn't hit back to him, I picked it
    up and threw it at him. It was on the green about 2' from the pin,
    probably would have made birdie. If you don't like the way I handled
    it, well that's your opinion and I respect it. But the guy never
    said a word and stayed away from us for the next 17 holes.
    
    Mike

    re .-1
    
    	Mike, 
    	
    	You were too kind. You should have thrown it in the brook! I
    can see if you've been hit into by the same group a few times
    that actions were required. Once is forgiven without explanation,
    twice give them the benefit of the doubt (career shot hit maybe?)
    but 3 times and your out. Definitely toss it back, or better yet
    lose it for them.