Conference 7.286::golf

2.033 * 9 iron distance or 1.698 * 7 iron distance
--------------------------------------------------
**** if you carry your drive this distance ***
            -----

dr |3w |5w |2ir|3ir|4ir|5ir|6ir|7ir|8ir|9ir|wg |sw|
---------------------------------------------------
250|237|207|207|195|183|171|159|147|135|123|111|99| +/-12
---------------------------------------------------
240|228|201|201|189|177|165|153|141|130|118|106|94|
---------------------------------------------------
230|219|190|190|179|168|157|146|135|124|113|102|91| +/-11
---------------------------------------------------
220|209|185|185|174|163|152|141|130|119|108| 97|86| +/-11
---------------------------------------------------
210|199|179|179|168|157|146|135|124|114|103| 92|81|
---------------------------------------------------
200|187|168|168|158|148|138|128|118|108| 98| 88|78| +/-10
---------------------------------------------------
190|180|160|160|151|142|131|122|112|103| 93| 82|72|
---------------------------------------------------
180|171|151|151|142|133|124|115|106| 97| 88| 79|70| +/-9
---------------------------------------------------

	You must remember that the pros are looking for accuracy.
The 274-284 average is deceiving.  Many times a pro will hit a
3 wood or 1 iron to hit the fairway.  For example, I got a chance
to see the Byron Nelson Classic this year.  I watched at least
10 groups hit from the first tee.  Ben Crenshaw was the only
guy to hit a wood -- and he missed the fairway.  

	I can remember a telecast a few years ago discussing
Davis Love III not being accurately measured in the distance
category due to the fact that he uses a 1 iron many times when
other pros use drivers.  Seve Ballesteros, Greg Norman, Mark
Calcaveccia and a long list of others can hit a driver 300+
almost at will.  I can personally attest to Calcavecia's
distance after almost being beaned by an OB drive [nah, he 
can't hit it this far...plop over my head].  These guys his
1 irons 240+ from the fairway!  

	I believe the long distance contest this week at 
the Bank of Boston Classic (Pleasant Valley -- Sutton, MA)
was won with a 309 drive, and second was 304.  However, I'm
not familiar with the hole or the conditions.  I guess my 
point is that a 274-284 (5% of the tour per .0?) doesn't come 
close to measuring the average touring pro's "driver" distance.

Jeff

    to quote Dr. Soley "Another way to measure 1-wood distance: step
    off your AVERAGE 7-iron and multiply by 1.698, or, for 9-iron,2.033
    (Soley has calculated how the distance of a players irons relates
    to his distance off the tee and irons,he says are easier to measure"

    re. -1, that's distance of a average 7 iron without roll - right
    dick?
    
    dick brings up a very good point, i hear alot of golfers that think
    they hit a shot 250+, when in fact most golfers only hit the ball
    200-220 on public courses where the fairways are not cut.      
    
    

    re: .2 & .5
    
    	Yes, the key here and the point I think was missed by .2 reply
    is how far you CARRY the ball....240+ 1 iron is more like a carry
    of 212-218 and the rest is roll on the fairways.....
    
    There is a par 3 at HARBOR TOWN I think where it is 235+ all carry
    over water and most pro's have to hit there best drive to carry
    it to the green ...a slight miss and there swimming...

    The tour get's it driving stats by measuring the distance on two
    holes during each round. It does not matter if the ball is in the
    fairway or not. They try to pick a nice wide open pair for holes.
    
    I have noticed that some pros only take out there driver for these
    two holes.
    
    Don
    

    Wasn't there a long drive tournament held among the pros some years
    back? I'm not sure who the victor was but it was pointed out that
    the tourney distances are misleading as stated earlier. Sacrafice
    distance for accuracy. Most hackers (me for sure) say the hell with
    staying in play I want to hammer it and bomb the guy in the ajacent
    fairway.

    I'm skeptical about this formula. However, there is another factor
    to take into account. How many people actually measure their shots?
    Don't we all trust the yardage markers and measurements on the course?
    
    One question I have is; when a hole is measured is it line of sight
    or do they follow the terrain? It would be easy to increase your
    distance by playing rolling courses.
    
    One other thing about the formula that makes it impractical for
    most of us is the % of 7 or 9 iron shots which are hit solidly,
    as opposed to the % of drivers hit solidly.
    
    Alan-who-according-to-this-formula-carries-a-drive-260
    

    	I guess everyone has their opinion, but fact is, like has been
    allready mentioned, the Pros are only measured on 2 holes, each
    18 - hole round for driving distance.  A lot of Pros, hit 3-woods
    and irons off these tees, making their average driving distance
    much shorter than in actuality, if they hit a 1 wood every time.
    There is really no way for me to proove it, but the *AVERAGE* touring
    pro, hits his driver *ON AVERAGE* about 275 to 285 yards.  The big
    hitters, the ones who usually lead this category, average 290+ yards
    off the tee with their drivers.  I've seen many times on TV, where
    the announcers will say, to carry that bunker off the tee, the Pro
    needs to hit the ball 250 yards.  And most of them do.  I even remember
    one time, hearing the announcers say that Greg Norman hit his ball
    left on a hole that was a dogleg right, and carried a bunker that
    was 290 yards away from the tee.  These guys do indeed hit the ball
    very long.  And when I'm playing well, I can average 240 yards off
    the tee with my driver, and occaisionally hit one 260 to 270.  If
    you don't beleive that, there's not much I can do about it.  But
    it's the truth.  
    	Tell me what your chart says.  I average about 155-160 yards
    with a 7-iron, and 135-140 yards with a 9-iron.
    
                                                        Beak

    
    Every once in a while I can gorilla the ball about 270 - 290 range.
    About 2 weeks ago on vacation I was playing a couse in Syracuse
    NY called Firefox (use to be Village Green). One of the holes is
    295 yards straight out, and I drove the green. I've hit the ball
    that far maybe 4 times this year. On average I'll hit it about 230
    - 250 range.
    
    Mike

    I have to disagree with the good doctors formula. The long hitters
    with the driver are not hitting 1 club less on the par threes. If
    this formula worked for the pros, the boomers would be hitting 8
    in lieu of 7 or 6 irons. I dont see that happening. 
    As far as my own personal stats, my golfing partner (a 2 Hdcp)
    can outdrive me by 20 - 30 yds. consistently but I am a half a club
    longer with the irons. 
                                 
    Ken

re:.10 

    The chart would expand like this for any BIG POUNDERS
    out there....


dr |3ir|4ir|5ir|6ir|7ir|8ir|9ir|wg |sw|
----------------------------------------
290|226|212|198|184|170|156|142|128|114|
----------------------------------------
280|216|203|190|177|164|150|137|124|111|
----------------------------------------
270|211|198|185|172|159|145|132|119|106|
----------------------------------------
260|205|192|179|166|153|140|127|114|101|
----------------------------------------

BTW: Nicklaus,Palmer,Zeller,Trevino in last years
     skin game...227 par 3 over water...212-216 to
     carry the water hit 1ir/1ir/1ir/4wd respectively
     and all four shots just got over the edge and
     rolled another 10-20 feet...

     If you carry a 7iron 155-160 you must get a total
     distance of app. 165-170...most pro's use 7iron
     for app. 150 to 157/ 5 iron for 165-175
     Trevino used 5 iron on hole-in-one for shot of
     165yds that had carry of app. 155 yds...!!!
     He could have used a 7 iron for same shot if he
     was hitting a draw,but he fades the ball so other
     things also come into play on distances....the chart
     however is a excellent guide on CARRY of a golf ball

    I can't say for sure whether I can hit the ball 250+ but I can make
    educated guesses. On a 400 yard hole, I can move my drive past the
    150 yard marker. I know the hole is 400 yards long because there
    is an MGA distance marker (which is usually an indication that the
    course has been measured by the MGA with a laser).
    
    When I was playing at Myrtle Beach earlier this spring, I played
    a hole about 425 long. I hit my drive almost to the 150 yard bush
    and I couldn't see the green around the dog leg! We figured my tee
    shot was about 260 or so and you had to hit it 275+ to get past
    the dogleg! Granted this was from the blue tees, but that's a little
    ridiculous.
    
    I like going to the driving range and poking a few over the 250
    yard sign for smiles and giggles. Of course, I am trying to let
    the shaft out.
    
    Mike

    BTW, I almost forgot that I tried out that "swing analyzer" at the
    Digital Senior's Classic (it's sponsored by Vantage and is free).
    The machine figured my clubhead speed around 104 mph and my shot
    went about 260 and veered about 4 yards off line.
    
    Mike

    I was having a pretty good day Sunday with the driver, outhitting
    the guys I was with on most holes...then I decided to make a second
    loop, and joined a different 3-some, two of whom were real howitzers
    (and not big guys either). I found out what "long drives" really
    meant, especially on a 470-yarder, where one of them was a good
    20 yards beyond the 150 marker (granted, he got the benefit of a
    downhill roll for about 25 yards, but still...). Guy's name is Jim
    Lynch, just in case you run into him and are tempted to get into
    a longball contest.
    
    Frank, the Humble
                     

    
       There is always someone that can hit the ball further.  I've
       been known to hit some long drives, but was out one day at
       Colonial CC. in Lynnfield.  Well, I was playing in this group
       with a guy that looked like he could generate some clubhead
       speed but was duckhooking all his wood shots.  We got to this
       long par 3 on the back side (approx 215 yards and all carry
       from the blue tees.  I usually hit a 4 iron from the whites
       (190 yards) but decided to take out the 3 iron for the extra
       distance.  This guy gets up first and hits a beautiful draw
       but the ball goes OVER the green.  He shakes his head and
       mumbles something about how he should have hit the 6.  Shaken,
       I ask him what he hit, and he says a 5 IRON!  I then came up
       short with the 3 iron.  Wondered what he hit from 120 yards,
       a sand wedge??
    
    -rick

    Yaa, lets see, I hit a 5 wood 200, no 250 yards, yaa that's it.
    Hit a 3 wood 250, no, 300, yaa thats the ticket, 300 yards...Driver
    goes 375, no 400 yards, yaa that's it, 400 yards...PW goes 175,
    yaa 175 !!! I have to use a putter at close range...Yaa that's the
    ticket, a putter from 150....
    
    Who is this young upstart from nowhere !!??
    
    Whoops, time to wake up and go home....
    
    Jim, as long as it is in the fariway, I don't care how long it goes.
    

    Greg Luzinski (the "Bull") can hit it halfway to China.  Actually,
    he hits it all the way to China.
    
    tim

    While waiting  in  line  at  the Vantage tent to test my swing at the
    machines they had at the past Digital Seniors Classic, I was snooping
    on the conversation a couple was having in front of me.
    
    Unfortunately I have the  terrible  habit  of not paying attention to
    names, so I don't remember his name, but the lady was a reporter.
    
    He  said  that  at  a long distance driving  contest  that  just  had
    happened  he  had  won  it using his Taylor Made  metal  driver  with
    titanium shaft.
    
    His winning distance:  391 YARDS!!!
    
    
    It didn't make me feel too good when after swinging at  the  machine,
    it told me that my ball would have gone only 200 yards.
    
     :^(   Tavo  :^(

	The distance has got longer...but 300yd DRIVES ARE NOT THE NORM!!

average yards per drive....a comparison

top 10 in driving distance for 1980	 top 10 in driving distance for 1988
-----------------------------------	 -----------------------------------
1.pohl		274.3			 1.norman	279.0
2.gardner	272.9			 2.glasson	277.5
3.zoeller	271.5			 3.stadler	277.2
4.valentine	270.4			 4.pohl		276.1
  hager		270.4			 5.sieckmann	276.0
6.snead(j.c.)	270.3			 6.love III	274.9
7.quigley	269.7			 7.O'grady	274.8
8.purtzer	269.4			 8.perry	274.5
9.weiskopf	269.1			 9.mudd		274.4
10.nicklaus	269.0			10.calcavecchia 274.2

	Figuring app. 10% roll and todays LONGEST PRO carrys the
ball 252yds....1980's LONGEST PRO carried the ball 247yds.......!!!

    If you players would really like to see  "THE BIG DOG EAT"; go to
    the rockies and play jack's new Breckenridge Golf Club.  At an
    elevation of 10,000 feet you can really gorrila the nugget!!  On
    the 10th hole, a slight down hill 570 yard par five, I hit a 3 wood
    335 measured yards off the tee, then used a massive 5 iron directly
    into the center of the green.  I wonder does the good Doctor's formula
    apply for such beastie conditions!!!!
    
    
    And what about those Floridian sea level courses!!!!  
    
    
    If only the fishing stoires were as good as the golf stories!!!!!
    
    

    re: .23
    
    	The doctor's formular is calculated for the carry of a golf
    ball at sea level under "normal" conditions...
    	Obviously, as stated before, other variables contribute to
    more or less distance i.e. heavy air, soft fairways, clear air
    and hard fairways as well as elevation...
    	Read back through the previous notes and as you see these
    tremendous distances ask each time: "what were the conditions?"
    Only then will a person see that the doctors charts are very good
    at showing CARRY of a golf ball....!!!!
    

    
      I'm finally back to work after being out for three months (no
    golf) but CARRY, to me, is more important than how far.  If you
    can't carry the pond, top of the hill, bunker, etc., then if it
    would have rolled another forty yards, it really doesn't matter.
    So i you can't carry the barrier, its time to lay up.

    Update for distances now that 1988 stats have been compiled by the
    various golf magazines:
    
    Top 70 on money list for 1988:
    					average driving distance = 265.9
    					longest driver = 284.6
    					shorest driver = 250.2
    
    assuming app. 10% roll gives the following for carry:
    					average = 239.31
    					longest = 256.14
    					shortest = 225.18

    Update for distances now that 1990 stats have been compiled by the
    various golf magazines:
    

    Top Driving Distance for 1990:

	1) 279.6
	2) 279.4
	3) 278.0
	4) 277.6


    assuming app. 10% roll gives the following for carry:

	251.64
	251.46
	250.20
	249.84


	So...keep slugging those 160 yard 7 irons...!!

    Don't forget...
     
    "driving distance" is not equal to "hit with a driver".
    
    160 yard 7 iron?  On a good day, in nice weather, no wind, good lie, 
    fairly flat golf hole, pin closer to front than back, good iron player?
    hmmm...sounds like bird to me:-)
    
    rick 

      
    	reply .27
    
    	
    	Hi Dick,
    
    		
    		I too detect some sarcasm in your font ;)  
    
    	What's so surprising/doubtfull about carrying a 7 iron 160? Or
    	a driver 260? I know it's a long hit, but it's definitely 
    	doable ... I've spent afternoons at the range sailing drivers 
    	over the 250 yard flag. And I'm not alone, there's a kid that
    	runs the Stow range that can airmail it out... which has to 
    	be around 270! 
    
    	Once you play golf with some of the noters, you'll learn
    	that they speak fact... C'mon to Mass and get in the
    	Challenge Cup III ? ;)
    
    	Walta   
    	have seen him??

    
    
    OOPs 
    
    	don't know how the "have seen him"  text came in below my
    	signoff..  it's a blooper.

    
    160 yd 7 iron?????? I can do it easily. If in doubt, I'll show anyone
    who asks to see it. Anyone here who plays Amherst should know hole 7. I
    usually use a 7 iron on that hole. If the wind is blowing in my face
    I'll use a 5. And I'm not hitting the ball fat. When I hit it good,
    it's a nice shot to the middle of the green. Maybe hit has something to
    do with the fact that I'm 6'3", weigh in at 220lbs and can benchpress
    250lbs.
    
    Mike

    RE: 31
    
    Nah... not necessary to be of neanderthal proportions to hit it long.
    
    It's all in the rythem.
    
    Davis Love is perennially a long hitter on the tour.  You could bench
    press Davis for hours on end:-)
    
    rick... 4'11" 98lbs......:-)
    

    
    re .32
    
    I know, I was being faceious. Size/strength has little or nothing to do
    with how far one hits the ball. I'm a lot bigger and stronger then Chi
    Chi, and I don't hit much farther. I'm also 20-30 years younger.
    
    Mike

     Re: .31 - have you got some signed 8 x 10" glossies we could put on
    our desks ? Wallet photos might be o.k., too...
    
    --Jack

    RE: 31...
    
    FREDDY COUPLES, A REKNOWN LONG HITTER IS 5'8" AT BEST.  MET HIM AT AN
    AIRPORT ONE DAY AND AT 5'9", I FELT BIG.  TIMING AND HIPS HAVE THE MOST
    DO WITH THE LONG HIT.  I AM AS LONG AS MOST FRIENDS LARGER AND YOUNGER. 
    THE FULL TURN EMPLOYED BY BOTH COUPLES AND LOVE ARE WELL DOCUMENTED. 
    WITH THE ADVANTAGE OF HI-TECH I AM NOW A 260+ AVERAGE (FOR MY GOOD
    HITS) WITH AN OCCASIONAL "3 BILLS" (TAYLOR MADE 9.5 WITH A BORON SHAFT).
    HAVE WITNESSES WHO WILL ATTEST TO A 340 WHACK IN PALM SPRINGS LAST SUMMER.
    CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY EXCEPT THAT I REMEMBER TAKING A SNOWMAN BECAUSE OF AN OB
    JUST PRIOR TO MY TEE SHOT. FOLLOWED THE DRIVE WITH A 6 IRON FROM 185.
    MISSED THE GREEN, SORRY TO SAY AND SETTLED FOR A PAR.  BUT I HAD FUN 
    GETTING THERE THOUGH.
    
    NO GLOSSIES, MY AGENT SAYS ITS BAD UNTIL I GET MY HAIRPIECE...BUT I DO
    HAVE A 1-900 NUMBER.
    
    SO CAL DANDY

>    NO GLOSSIES, MY AGENT SAYS ITS BAD UNTIL I GET MY HAIRPIECE...BUT I DO
>    HAVE A 1-900 NUMBER.

     Just never have your picture taken without your golf hat off!  If they
     wear a visor on tour you know they've got hair.  But 9 out of 10 if
     it's a hat, they are bald!  I was amazed the first time I saw Larry
     Nelson without a hat!

	Larry

    re: .28 - .36
    
    Guess I forgot the smiley face at the end of .27....or else I hit
    a nerve with some people....
    
    no not trying to be sarcastic, just updating the stats for the people
    in this file who think that 290 - 320 yard drives are the "norm"
    on tour and that 160 yd 7 irons go along with this "norm"....
    
    average pro's use 7 iron from 150 yards with ideal conditions...
    
    average drive is around 263 which gives average 7 iron of around 153
    
    there is always those who hit it farther but they are not the "norm"
    
    and I think the 7th at amerherst is 180 yards not 160 and I'd expect
    a guy 6' 3" to hit a 7 iron that far...
    
    
    
    dick ;^)   ;^)

    
    I don't think there's a corolation, at least not with the us hackers.
    I can on occasion hit a ball 300 yds. I average around 250 - 260 (when
    I hit it right, if I don't hit it right, there's no telling how far or
    what direction 8*( 8*( ). But I'm much more consistant with my irons.
    
    Mike

    Let me say it once more.  When driving distances are calculated for the
    tour stats, included are drives hit with OTHER than drivers.  A player
    using a one iron or three wood has those distances included as though
    he hit is driver.  That is what I meant when I said...
    driving distance is not equal to shots hit with a driver...
    Consequently, most tour players actually hit there drivers further than
    the stats reveal.
    
    Rick

    re: -1
    
    	I agree stats can be misleading...over the last five years I've
    payed close attention when watching golf on tv and with a calculator
    in my hand I've yet to see a drive over 280...and that includes some
    pretty big hitters...and this is with their drivers....
    
    	the other thing I'll do is pick what club they are hitting based on
    the distance and conditions and 90% of the time I can pick the correct
    club for the distance that the pro's will hit.....lucky/good/???
    
    no...it's all based on the charts given earlier in the notes and
    they ARE VERY close to what is real...
    
    ;^)
    

    a guy by the name of john daly is leading the pga tour this year,
    driving distance is 295.1, ed humenik is second at 283.9, both (i
    think) played on the hogan tour last year.
    
    peter

    in the last note I realized I should explain "with a calculator in
    my hand"...
    
    what I'll do is take the length of the hole minus what is given
    by the caddie or commentator for the second shot....
    
    what happens 75% of the time is the commentator during the drives
    says something like "wow he really tagged that one, it must be out
    there 300 yards or more"...then they come to the second shot and 
    the commentator there(who's usually different than the one for the
    drive) will give yardage for the second shot or you can here the caddie
    giving it(157 + 13, which is 157 to front 13 to flag or 170yds)
    
    when you do the math you see 90% of the time the driver are on average
    around 260...

	A couple years ago at the Digital Seniors I was a volunteer on 16
	when they were measuring drives on that hole.  Because it was hot
	several volunteers "disappeared" and I got stuck in the fairway
	pacing off drives for all but the first 4 groups.  In the groups
	I measured Palmer was the long drive with about 268.

	Larry

	I can't resist.  Two years ago at the Digital Seniors event one of the
	par 4s had yardage markers all down the side, like a football field.
	I watched Bob Charles drive it 278 yards.  Player and some other guy
	were all at  least 270.

	re a few back, the "calculator" stuff.  That's exactly what Gary McCord
	does.  You hear things like "Greg's got 95 yds left to this green,
	the hole plays 410, you figure it out."

	Every professional golfer can drive the ball 280 yards, most of them
	longer.  The fact that some don't, or that their average isn't 300+,
	has been covered previously.

	"No" pro hits a 7 iron from 150.  Even I can hit it longer than that.
	Just listening to TV I'd say the average club is a 9, certainly
	never more than an 8 from 150.

	Face it, these people are on a different planet than most of us.

Re: -.2

Most pros DO use a 7 iron from 150. Nicklaus says he uses a 7 from 
145-155. When they have an iron in their hands, control is foremost in 
their minds, not power. In fact, they are capable of hitting it alot 
farther. 

At a Pleasant Valley tournament a few years ago I was following a kid
from my old home town--Gary Hallberg. On 18 he had duck-hooked his
drive into the woods on the left. He punched out to the opposite edge
of the fairway. He asked his caddy how far he had to the pin. His
caddy said "213." Now, if you know 18, you know it's uphill to the
green. Gary pulled out a *6 iron*! And put it on the green. I said,
"Jeezuz, Gary, a six iron??!!" He replied that he can hit a 6 iron
anywhere from 140 to 230, depending on the circumstances. He chose it
that time because he wanted to bring it in as high as possible to stop
it as close to the pin (it was up front) as possible. Usually, he uses
it from 160-170. 

I used to pride myself with hitting 9 irons 150 yards--until I read 
Nicklaus's book. But then, when you're a hacker, what else can your 
boast about?

    .46 says it all ! BTW, I met Gary Hallberg at the tournament opening
    the new nine at "The Fox," and everybody loved the guy. What a class
    act ! I even caught a fish for him at # 15, but that's another story in
    another town... (We have it on tape, though).
    
    --Jack

    
    Reply last few
    
    
    	Hi Guys,
    
    	This discussion of late was started with a comment doubting
    	the length a golf ball can be hit... it was then followed by 
    	a flock of personal experiences to disprove the original
    	statement... Now the topic has swung (no pun intended) to
    	a new discussion on distance and it's proper use.
    
    	That's a great topic for discussion, because I think what
    	Tom just stated and Jack supported is an experienced golfers
    	look at distance and the game of golf. Which is when to use
    	the maximum swing speed, and when not. Distance can be a 
    	real help for all the obvious reasons, but it too can wreck
    	a great round in a blink :) ! 
    
    	Do you find yourself always swinging hard? Or do you only
    	jump on it when there's margin for error? Managing that part
    	of your game will get your scores lower...
    
    	groove that tempo :)
    	
    	Walta

    was watching some of senior golf this weekend and saw a couple of
    shots that are also not "the norm"
    
    410 yard hole with slight dogleg right...
    
    Trevino hits his drive and has 191 left to green...
    
    Charles hits his drive and has 186 left to green...
    
    both hit driver, the drives they got were definately not their
    normal distances and I assume because of the dogleg...i.e. they
    just try and get around the corner of dogleg because trying to
    get more distance - wise causes you to end up somewhere in the 
    boonies....guess the conclusion is that they can fly it 260 fairly
    straight but when playing around corners they must take something
    off...

    reply -1
    
    hi Dick,
    
    	I know the hole you're talking about... and it was rated the number
    1 most difficult hole with a 4.3x stroke average. I know the hole
    played longer than 410... I believe it was 470 ish? Not positive
    though.  There were zero birdies on the hole that tourny.... if it
    is 410, they would be hitting 9 irons into the green and scoring
    much better I would think?
    
    I don't think Lee or Bob would want to bunt a driver 220, but would 
    use a 4 wood or 1 iron ?
    
    	Walta
    	
    	Walta
    	

    
    Though I did not see the tourney and know nothing of the hole I would 
    just like to point one, possibly obvious point, out.
    
    If the hole is a dogleg right and you hit your tee shot down the left
    side, you have alot further to the hole than  a tee shot of the same
    distance that went down the right. But you also have more risk going
    down the right.
    
    --Bob
    

    reply -1
    
    	Hi Bob,
    
    	They both drove down the right side... And they both took a full
    	cut at the ball. After seeing their swings, you'd think they
    	drove it well past 220... I'd be surprised if the hole were
    	410 yards. But I've been wrong plenty of times...
    
    	Just the facts Mam;
    
    	Walta

>                                                               if it
>    is 410, they would be hitting 9 irons into the green and scoring
>    much better I would think?


on a straight away hole: (based on 260 yd drive)
------------------------

	with a 410 yard hole I figure they'd be hitting a 6-7 iron
second shot...

	with a 440 yard hole I figure they'd be hitting a 4-5 iron
second shot...

	with a 470 yard hole I figure they'd be hitting a 2-3 iron
second shot...


	so you may be right, even though they gave the yardage as
410. Lee hit a 3 iron second (191 to green) and Charles hit 5 iron
second (186 to green)

	the big difference in clubs between the two is the fact Lee
fades(more club) and Charles draws(less club)...!!    

So all you guys think you're big hitters eh! Well i guess none of you remember
or have heard of the biggest hitter of all time.Let me enlighten you......

No-one,absolutely no-one,has come close to matching the feats accomplished over
30 years ago by one man.
If you look at page 307 of the 1968 Guinness book of records it says 
"The longest consistent hitter the game has ever known is the 6ft 5ins tall,
17st 2lbs(240lbs) George Bayer (USA).You might have mistaken george for an 
American footballer which he was before joining the tour in 1954,although he 
looked as though he always wore shoulder armour,like many a big man,he was an 
amiable giant who rarely lost his temper on the course(and few were prepared 
to test it elsewhere).

Bayer was born in 1925 and after a brief career with the washington redskins
turned pro at the age of 29.from his first days on tour,crowds flocked to see
him give the golf ball a colossal whack.He was not a long hitter in the palmer
mould,straining every ounce to achieve maximum power.In a long driving contest
Bayer would have treated Arnie like George Foreman shaping up to Danny De Vito.
His swing was relaxed and quite long,but it was his massive hands and arms,
allied to the rest of his bulk,that gave him such awesome power.

Former Ryder cup captain Bernard Hunt is just one of an army of pros with a 
story about Bayers prodigious length.
"We were on the practice ground at San Diego.There was a tall wire fence at one
end,around 300 yds away,with a road beyond.On the other side was a two-storey
motel built around a courtyard.George was hitting irons to his caddie and,like
the rest of them,the caddie moved back as he worked on the longer clubs.George
just fanned at a driver but by then his man was right back at the fence.
There was quite a crowd round the practice range and they were starting to yell
"Go for it, George,over the wire!"and we were urging him to give it a try.So
he hits one that carries the fence, carries the road,flies over the top of the
motel and lands in the courtyard.Thats 360 yds on the fly for gods sake !"

Bayers longest drive was of well over 500 yards in Australia,where he drove to
within chipping distance of a 580-yard hole.Granted the ground was hard and the
wind following,but 500+ yds ! Another one flew 420 yds at the Las Vegas Invitat-
ional in 1953.It actually would have traveled much further,but even at that
range it struck a spectator so hard that it had to be measured as a precaution
against litigation.A further blast finished pin high on a 426-yard hole at 
Tuscon.The thrill people felt from watching him was not just the hope that he 
would let rip,but the same tense anticipation they might have experienced at the
thought of a shell from over the horizon falling on their house - and with Bayer
around,the further away you were,the larger your house looked.

Ironically,Bayer's real strength lay in his short game(imagine the back spin).
While the crowds flocked to witness his power,the pros admired his pitching 
accuracy.The trouble was that he rarely had the opportunity to take advantage of
his assets.He either throttled down from the tee to keep in play or,more often,
found himself well off-line.But he was good enough to win the 1957 Canadian open
two further tour titles from 1958 to 1963,and tie with nicklaus for third in the
USPGA in 1962 alongside a string of second and third place finishes in run-of-
the-mill events.Although he only ranks 126th in the USPGA tour's ranking of the
top 500 this century,he still outranks better known players such as former
British Open winner Bill Rogers,double US Open Champion Andy North and a host
of others regarded as among the better Tour players today.

Aside from that,his best feat was a tournament record --- one hour and 52 mins
in the 1960 Masters.And i don't imagine he had to waste time by laying up short
at the 15th.

George Bayer was plagued to the end of his playing days by being seen as an
oddity.The public didn't care what score he brought in as long as a few massive
hits could be fired away in each round.He was expected to pull out the heavy
artillery,often against his better judgement,just to please the spectators.But
then,gifted with Bayers monumental assets,wouldn't we all do the same ?

Its easy for flights of fancy to carry one away.Perhaps with a graphite shaft,a
two-piece ball and a touch of draw,Bayer might have been able to drive through
a small country -- Liechtenstein,say ---- on the fly.Henry Longhurst would have
had no doubts:
"I first met him and his wife sitting in a bar in Thunderbird,where i remained
standing and thus almost on a level.Later i watched him play.You find yourself
standing with your mouth open.The 1st hole was 378 yards long --- his drive
pitched clean over it"


According to the doctors formula and taking Georges average carry at 375 yds
i make him 185 yds with a 9 iron and 220 yards with a 7 iron.Any bigger hitters
out there ?

Anybody know any more about the great George Bayer,where is he now ?


                                              Aim for 28 putts a round

                                                     Ken.

    I've got a MacGregor George Bayer Driver circa 1960. Big, hard piece of
    wood...
    
    --Jack

    see the mag. mentioned in note 890 as it has a good article on old vs.
    new clubs/balls...
    
    the results we're interesting (to me) as the distances the ball
    carries is about what the chart in 393.1 says...