Conference 7.286::golf

    	Rule 10-1 and 10-2
    
    	B. Other then on Teeing ground.
           ---------------------------
    
    	      When the balls are in play, the ball farther from the
    hole shall be played first.  If the balls are equidistant from the
    hole, the ball to be played first should be decided by lot.
    
                                                          Beak

    
    The 'continuious putting rule' applies only in stroke play.  You have
    the right to finish out the hole.  I really don't know where this is in
    the rules but in stroke play you control your own ball. However in
    match play you DO NOT have the right to finish the hole.  Your ball is
    controlled by your opponent. If you putt and miss and your opponent
    says "mark it", you must mark it and pick it up you can play out
    the hole.
    
    
    						KO

    	Kevin, according to my rules book, whether or not it's stroke
    play or match play, if your opponent is farther from the hole than
    you, and wants to putt 1st, he can demand you mark the ball and
    let him putt.  Continuous putting can only occur, if your opponent
    allows it.
    
                                                             Beak

    Hmm...then why is it that in almost every televised golf tournament,
    the players continue putting, and whenever the subject comes up,
    the announcers invariably state that it is the players' "right"
    to do so? Does the PGA Tour use a different set of rules? I know
    they play a *different* game than the rest of us do! For us hackers
    (or "latent golfers" as I heard someone say recently after a particu-
    larly discouraging round) it would seem that such a rule/guideline/
    convention would help keep things moving (along the lines of "ready"
    golf, espoused in the interests of speeding up play, sometimes referred
    to as "keep pace" golf). Anyway, I'm in favor of it, as long as
    doing so doesn't interfere with anyone else. I'm getting pretty
    tired of playing at the pace of the average funeral procession!
    
    Frank
    

    RE: .3
    
    Hmmmm, 
    	Beak it was explained to me (I still don't have a rule book)
    that if it were my turn to putt, that, in stroke play, I  can continue
    to putt until I hole out.  Guess I'll have to finally break down.
    
    
    					KO

    
    In the rules book that I have, USGA, it states the same as what
    reply .1 stated... But I had always thought that you could hole
    out if you wanted... Oh well...!
    
    Gene

    I hope this topic is continued until there is a resolution.  I am
    positive that Beak has read his rule book correctly just as I have
    always been told and observed on PGA Tour that once you begin putting
    is your right to continue until you hole out or mark if you prefer.
    
    There a baseball rules where the actual usage differs from the wording
    in the rules. For example if the ball hits off the bat behind the
    plate and then goes fair it is still a foul ball; rules explicitly
    say otherwise.  On that one I heard it was in the decisions (like
    an appendix).
    
    I know in stroke you CAN continue but I would surely like to know
    what supports this.
 

    
    This is just my understanding, but I believe the rule is that the
    player furtherest from the hole has the RIGHT to play next.  However,
    that player may defer his shot, and let someone else shoot if he
    so decides.  There are certain circumstances where it would be in
    the players best interest not to play next (i.e. when a mark would
    be directly in the line of his putt).  I believe in tournaments
    you have to ask for and receive permission to put out, although
    it is usually a nod of the head or something very subtle.
    
    Dave Hurley
    

>    	Rule 10-1 and 10-2
>    
>    	B. Other then on Teeing ground.
>           ---------------------------
>    
>    	      When the balls are in play, the ball farther from the
>    hole shall be played first.  If the balls are equidistant from the
>    hole, the ball to be played first should be decided by lot.
    
Perhaps the answer for why it is permitted for stroke play is found in 10-2C
(the penalty for a breach of rule 10-2).

	C. Playing Out of Turn

	If a competitor plays out of turn, no penalty shall be incurred
	and the ball shall be played as it lies.  If however the Committee
	determines that competitors have agreed to play in an order other than
	that set forth in clauses 2A & 2B of this Rule to give one of them an
	advantage, THEY SHALL BE DISQUALIFIED. (Emphasis from rules)

This brings up a related question.  Has anyone out there read the Decision of
Golf?  I an think it would be a lot of fun to read them over the winter. 
I was at the Ladies Tournament Saturday and saw two players need to consult
someone for rules interpretations on two very basic rulings.  1. A ball against
television cables, and 2. Question on abandoning a unplayable ball & using
a provisional ball that had been played.  You would think that players would
have a better grasp of the rules since it is their livelyhood.  (This isn't
limited to the ladies, I've seen similar from the men.)

Larry

    	What I put in .1 was taken directly from the 1987 version of
    "The Rules Of Golf".  Personnally, I've never told an opponent that
    they couldn't continue and putt out.  I've also never had an opponent
    tell me I couldn't continue and putt out, or call me fro a rules
    violation because of it.  I think it's silly, but the rule is there
    and should an opponent of yours wish to enforce it, you're out of
    luck.  I think the reason it's there, is the idea of switching the
    pressure.  For example, I've got 20 feet for birdie and you've got
    say 6 feet for par.  I putt 1st and leave myself 4 feet for par.
    It would probably be to my advantage to continue to putt for par,
    because if I make it, your 6 footer for par now looks like 10 feet.
    And in this case you may decide not to let me continue and putt
    out, but decide to putt 1st, knowing mine is not in the hole yet,
    and by making your putt, reverse the pressure to me, making my 4
    footer look like a 7 or 8 footer.  It's all psychological, but I
    think golf is at least 75% mental anyway.
    
                                                         Beak

    re .10
    
    Yeah, you have to be at least 75% mental to play golf! 8-)
    
    Bob who_is_probably_at_least_99 and_44/100ths_percent_mental
    

>    	What I put in .1 was taken directly from the 1987 version of
>    "The Rules Of Golf".  

	I hope you didn't mistake my comment as questioning the accuracy
	of your entry.  I was just pointing out that for stroke play the
	penalty for the breach of the rule was contained in the next point.
	The penalty is basically nonexistant.  The only time I could imagine
	a penalty being assessed is if the ball of player A who is out of the 
	tournament is just in front of Player B's ball on the green.  If
	player B sinks this putt for birdie then he wins the tournament.
	One of the players has to suggest that player A should putt out
	so player B can see the line and possibly win the tournament.
	The other player must then agree.  In all other cases it appears
	that there is no penalty in stoke play.

	Larry

Let me add another putting protocol question that I'd like to have
resolved:

It seems to me that most people play that once you reach the putting
green, anyone else who is off on the fringe plays first until they
are also on the putting surface.  I know it saves some time not having
to keep moving the flag stick around, but I think that many golfers
think that's the rule.  Is it?  I always thought it went strictly by
distance to the hole, regardless of whether you're on the green or not.  
I have often been leaning over a 20-30 foot putt, only to look up and see
some oblivious individual in the middle of a 10 foot chip from the fringe.
I always watch them hit, but who's turn is it supposed to be?

/dave

>It seems to me that most people play that once you reach the putting
>green, anyone else who is off on the fringe plays first until they
>are also on the putting surface.  I know it saves some time not having
>to keep moving the flag stick around, but I think that many golfers
>think that's the rule.  Is it?  I always thought it went strictly by
>distance to the hole, regardless of whether you're on the green or not.  

You're right.  The same rule that was discussed before applies here.
When wathcing the pros you will generally see them play it like you would
expect it.  However you may see a pro play up out of a greenside bunker, etc
even though he is physically closer to the hole.

Larry

PS. Have you every noticed at a tournament how the caddies pass the flag
around among themselves.  The caddie of the player closest to the hole has
the flag.  That was when his player is the final one to putt out he can
put the flag back in.

    Also I believe that your not allowed to mark your ball if another
    player is off the green, unless the player request it.  What is
    the reasoning for that?  Our league uses stroke play in our matches
    during putting as it speeds up our play too.
    
    Regards Kevin,

    
>>    PS. Have you every noticed at a tournament how the caddies pass the flag
>>  around among themselves.  The caddie of the player closest to the hole has
>>  the flag.  That was when his player is the final one to putt out he can
>>  put the flag back in.

	That's done so that player knows when it's his turn to putt.
   The sequence is, find the flag, if it's your caddy, putt.  :-)
    
    RE: .15
    
    If you are on the green, you can mark you ball and pick it up in
    stroke play.  The reason for not marking it if someone is off the
    green, is so they don't have to wait for you to mark.  In match
    play if your opponent is off the green, he can have you mark it
    and leave the ball there.  
    
    				KO
    

Perhaps the following might help answer the continuous putting question.
I found it in the 1980 R&A rus so don't know if it still exists.

The relevant section is "Putting Green - Stroke Play" (in my book this
is rule 35-3) which says:

a. Ball Interfering with Play

When the competitors ball lies on the putting green, if the competitor
consider that a fellow-competitor's ball interfere with his play, he may
require the fellow-competitor's ball be lifted or played, at the fellow-
competitor's option.
.
.
.
Note: It is recommended that the interfering ball be played rather than
lifted, unless the subsequent play of a fellow-competitor is likely to be
affected.

b. Ball Assisting Play

If the fellow-competitor consider that his ball lying on the putting green
might be of assistance to the competitor, the fellow-competitor may lift or
play first without penalty.

[I think this last one may be interpreted as your "Right" to putt out - AR]


Andrew.

    	I've got a couple of putting questions.  I was playing at Stow
    Acres North yesterday (what a day!) and had some interesting things
    happen on the 1st and 18th greens.
    	On the 1st, one of my playing partners had putted his ball about
    3-4 feet past the hole.  The other partner had a long put that he
    hit too strong that also went past the hole.  Now, this second putt
    looked like it was going to roll forever, but it hit the first ball.
    Rich now had a 3-4 foot come-backer, which he made, instead of a
    10-12 footer (maybe).  Should one of them been charged a penalty?
    	The other incident happened to me on 18.  The flag was set towards
    the back of the green, which many of you know is sort of "L" shaped,
    and my approach shot landed on the right front of the green.  Normally,
    this would just mean that I had a real long putt to save par, but
    with the position of the flag, I actually had to putt through the
    fringe, even though my ball was on the green.  
    						There was just something
	    +-------+			about being on the green and
	    |       |			having to go through the fringe
	    |     o | <-- hole		to get to the hole that I found
	    |       |			quite distasteful, but I don't
	    |       |			suppose I had any choice, did
	    |       +------+		I?  It turned out OK, since
	    |            * | <-- ball	I managed to put it about 2-3
	    |              |		feet from the hole and made
	    +--------------+		the second putt for the 6.
    
    	By the way, I managed to shoot a 95 for the round, which is
    7 strokes better than I've managed yet this year.  And that included
    two OB's on the back nine and a tremendous tee shot on 11 that went
    just a little too far and wound up in the woods.  It looks like
    90 isn't too far away!
    
    -Tom

    Re .18:
    
>    looked like it was going to roll forever, but it hit the first ball.
>    Rich now had a 3-4 foot come-backer, which he made, instead of a
>    10-12 footer (maybe).  Should one of them been charged a penalty?

    It depends how you are playing.  In stroke play, this would indeed
    incur a penalty, but in match play, it is perfectly legal to use
    your opponents ball as a "backstop".

    Regarding putting through the fringe: I don't believe there is any
    written rule about what clubs you can use from which position.  My
    dad says he remembers seeing Hubert Green on TV at the British Open
    at St. Andrews.  His shot ended up on the wrong side of one of those
    double greens, about 60 yards away.  He took out a wedge and pitched it
    (taking a divot) to within 3 feet of the hole.  However, if you took
    out anything but a putter on most golf courses, you'd probably be
    shot by the local greenskeeper ;)
    

    Bill

    	Rule 19-5 of the USGA Rules Of Golf says, and I quote;
    
    "If a player's ball in motion is deflected or stopped by a ball
    at rest, the player shall play his ball as it lies.  In stroke play,
    if both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, the
    player incurs a penalty of 2 strokes.  Otherwise, no penalty is
    incurred."
    	My assumption on this rule is what has already been said.  That
    is that in match play, there seems to be no penalty if this occurs,
    and furthermore in Rule 18-5, the ball which was at rest, must be
    replaced to the position it was at, or as near as possible, before
    it was deflected or moved.
    
    Beak

    There seems to be many noters here who are very well versed in
    golf etiquette/rules. Maybe one of you can clarify something
    for me: technically, what is stroke play, match play, and medal
    play? My understanding is that the winner in a match-play
    tournament is the person who wins the most holes; medal play
    goes to the golfer with the lowest total score (gross and/or net);
    I'm not sure about stroke play.
    
    Thanks in advance.

    
    RE: .21
    
    	Stroke Play
    
    	The winner of a stroke play match is the person that plays
    	the STIPULATED ROUND in the fewest strokes...

    Medal play is the same as stroke play.  I believe (I'm sure I'll be
    corrected if I'm wrong) the term comes from the player with the fewest
    strokes won the medal, or was the medalist.  Therefore the term medal
    play for stroke play.  In the rules of golf only stroke play and match
    play are mentioned.
    
    
    
    						KO

    RE:18
    
    	Before the rules were changed to allow marking balls on the
    green, and you had to putt with another player's ball between you
    and the hole, you were stymied unless you took a lofted club and
    chipped your ball over the other ball.  It was accepted practice
    then.
    
    
    						Mike

    Medal play and stroke play are the same. The term medal play comes
    from the "old" days when, in order to qualify for a match play
    tournamnet, you had to play medal (stroke) and the lowest score
    was awarded a medal and therefore was the medalist. The USGA changed
    the term medal to stroke to clarify things. (I guess)