Conference 7.286::golf

    First of all Frank, those places DO have ladies tees....  Why won't
    you admit that you're playing from them!  :-}
    
    As for playing behind lady golfers, in all the time that I've played
    golf, I can't remember the pace of play being significantly different.
    Most women play faster actually.  Once a couple of women call me
    up on a par 4 to let me play through, but there was a threesome
    of men in front who held everything up.  The ladies thought that
    they would let me play through because I'm a man.  But those bozos
    could have cared less.  So the 3 of us each played 2 balls.
    
    As I said I've never been held up by women golfers.  That's really
    all in how you learn to play.  My wife and I used to play golf with
    another couple.  We had a couple of rules.  After 10 strokes, pick
    it up, 3 wiffs in a row and get to throw it or have someone else
    hit it for you.  "This is not a survival test, this is fun!"
    
    
    					KO

    Rep. #1 - Aha, so that's the problem! Never occurred to me.
    Actually, it's amazing how inconsistent course management seems
    to be: on some, as I say, there are no tees for women; on others,
    the difference ranges from a few feet to almost 100 yards between
    men's and women's tees!
    
    The most striking tee setup I've seen was at Las Hadas in Mexico:
    four tee placements - women's, men's, championship, and professional!
    It was a drive and a wedge from the pro tees to the women's!!
    
    It took me a while to get over my prejudice against women golfers,
    but Susan has made a believer out of me. Now if I could only get
    my male buddy/golf partner to stop taking five or six practise swings
    on every shot...he often reminds me of a particularly fidgety baseball
    player who had to have everything just right before he stepped back
    into the batter's box (hat, stance, batting glove, supporter, shoe-
    laces, etc). He took so much time he became known as the Human Rain
    Delay.
    
    	Frank
    

     I have never been to a course that not had women's tees, but I
    agree with a previous note that it is a course management issue.
    
     In regards to slowness of play, it is not a question of male or
    female. It is a matter of common sense and courtesy. If your playing
    slow -- let faster players go through !! We have to share the course
    with golfers of all levels of ability. It's too bad there are those
    who feel that a greens fee intitles them play on the course all
    day and those in back be damn.
    
    
    
                   Ken

    My wife and I play semi-regularly (that's my problem- noy enuf time)
    at a course in Bolton that does not have Ladies Tees. She just moves
    to the front of the tee area, or moves up the fairway to a likely
    spot.
    
    RE: Women on the course- My wife shoots in the 60's for 9 holes,
    and doesn't hit the ball very far. BUT, she is definitely NOT a
    slow player, and has MUCH more courtesy and good behavior than a
    good percentage of the bozos that we see on the courses these days!
    
    It irks the s**t out of me to see guys on the course in bathing
    suits, no shirts, and a bag full of beer. I can't wait until our
    turn comes up to join a private country club that enforces some
    decorum in dress and behavior. My wifes' Dad was an avid golfer
    when he was alive, and always used to stress the "This is a Gentleman's
    Game" aspect of Couse ettiquette. Seems that we have a generation
    of golfers out there that haven't learned this- simple things like
    "Fore", and letting folks thru. <SET=FLAME:OFF>
    
    Can you tell this is a "hot button"?

    
>>        Can you tell this is a "hot button"?

    	No, I wish you'd stop beating 'round the bush and say what's
    on your mind!  :-)
    
>>     Seems that we have a generation
>>    of golfers out there that haven't learned this- simple things like
>>    "Fore", and letting folks thru.
  
    
    That's why I don't play public courses anymore.  The "ME" generation
    has really made the game an ordeal instead of a day in the sun!
    That's not limited to golf, but this is not the place for that
    discussion.I guess my blood pressure just went up too.
    
    
    					KO

    RE. 4
    
    I just got off another public course (Green Meadows #1 in Hudson,
    NH) and it was a re-run of just about every round I played this
    year: nobody but NOBODY waved anyone on at the par 3's. Just one
    example of the cloddishness that seems rampant in golf lately. I
    wonder if it may not be time for licensing golfers, a written test
    to see how much they know about etiquette, rules, etc, before they
    can be allowed onto the courses.
    
    But, this note's supposed to be about women on golf courses, so
    I will respond to your note that your wife shoots in the 60's for
    nine, but takes no more time (probably less) than most of the clods
    out there on any given Sunday: this only points out how much time
    is wasted taking endless practise swings, looking for lost balls,
    and lining up 6-inch putts, while the rest of the people on the
    course twiddle their thumbs waiting to hit! In fact, one of the
    advantages a lot of women have lies in their inability to knock
    the ball out 250 - 300 yards. Shorter shots tend to stay in play!
    
    Frank
    
    P.S. Yes, we too are waiting for the day when we'll be able to join
    a private club. Playing public courses just ain't a whole lot of
    fun anymore!
    

     (Tangent alert)
     
     re .6:
     
     I don't understand why people on the tee should be "waved on" at a
     par-3.  For one thing, it doesn't do much, if anything, to speed play.
     More importantly, it totally breaks up the rhythm of a hole -- those
     on the green have to stand around and do nothing while the tee shots
     are being hit.  (Do people on the green line up their putts during the
     tee shots?  No way -- they're standing on the edge of the green,
     watching the tee shots.)  
     
     re .?:
     
     The answer to slow play is **not** letting people play through. When
     you let a group play through, then that one group can play faster, but
     all of the other groups behind still have to wait. The answer to slow
     play is simply this: get to your ball more quickly, and be ready to
     hit the ball.
     
     --Mr Topaz

    RE .4
    	   While I agree with you on courteous play and golf ettiquete,
    I dis-agree with you on how people dress on the course.  Unless
    the course does indeed have some sort of dress code, then you have
    no right to complain about how others dress while playing.  I am
    as courteous as the next guy, but I do where shorts on the course
    and have before, taken my shirt off while playing.  Although with
    the weight gain I've accumulated over the last 3 years, I've hesitated
    to do this now. *-)  But you have no right to say what's okay to
    wear and what's not.  You do however, have the right to not like
    it and not play there anymore.  That's your right, and your opinion.
    I'll bet your wife doesn't mind seeing males with their shirts off
    at the beach.  What's the difference?  Some enjoy the game more
    this way.  The get enjoyment from golf, and a tan to boot.
    	And as far as drinking on the course, as long as those doing
    it don't get out of hand and bother other golfers, then if the course
    allows it, and most do, it's fine.  I always have a few on the course.
    I like beer, and as long as I control myself, I see nothing wrong
    with it.  Once again, you're entitled to your opinion, but that
    doesn't mean everyone has to do what you want, just so you can enjoy
    yourself.  By the way, prepare yourself when you join a private
    club.  Most *do* allow alcohol on the course.  I don't know about
    dress codes, but if I can't relax on the course, then I don't want
    to be there!!!
                                                     Beak

	RE: 138.7

>>>  
>>>  The answer to slow play is **not** letting people play through. When
>>>  you let a group play through, then that one group can play faster, but
>>>  all of the other groups behind still have to wait. The answer to slow
>>>  play is simply this: get to your ball more quickly, and be ready to
>>>  hit the ball.


    Your solution to slow play is only partially true.  While the better golfer
    could play faster by getting to the ball faster and being ready to hit the
    ball when it's their turn, that's only a portion of why it takes 5+ hours
    to play a round of golf.  The other major factor is groups not recognizing
    that they are holding up play.  Nothing is more frustrating than playing
    behind a group that really should be investing their money at a practice
    range or on lessons and not letting them play through.  The worst thing
    is that they generally don't know enough about the game to understand the
    etiquette to know that they are doing something wrong.  The other groups
    that are frustrating to play behind are the heavy bettors, heavy drinkers,
    or both which are oblivious to other groups on the course (not all of these
    just those out of contact with what's going on around them.)  Let's
    admit it you are not likely to sink that 20 foot putt no matter how badly
    you need to make it, so just look it over and putt it up close.  You may
    be suprised it may go in.


    The ruling principles should be:

	1. If you start to fall behind try to speed up.
	2. If a whole hole opens ahead of you let the group behind you
	   play through.
	3. If you are getting lapped you should try tennis.

    Pardon the tone of this reply if it seems harsh maybe its because
    Sunday afternoon I had to follow several slow groups around the course.
    After 4 1/2 hours and only 15 holes I quit because it started to rain
    hard.  The frustrating thing is that I could see a threesome about
    7-8 groups ahead that had a whole par 5 open ahead of them & wasn't letting
    anyone play through.

    I also wish more courses had rangers out on the course to ensure speedy
    play, but that's another story.
    

Looks like we've sideslipped into another topic (I originally wanted
    to know about courses that discouraged women golfers), but slow
    play is obviously a universally irritating phenomenon, so what the
    heck...

Rep. #7

Obviously, if things are jammed up ahead of the par-3, it will not do
much good to wave people on. But if the tee is open on the next hole,
it will speed things up. As for breaking up one's rhythm: It's a lot
harder to get one's rhythm back for a full swing than for a putt. I'd
much rather stand off the green and watch tee shots than stand on the
tee and watch putts.

Your point regarding overall speed-up is right on the money. Be at the ball,
have the club in your hands, and be ready to hit when it's your turn! I still
maintain that the majority of time wasted on a golf course is spent in the
woods searching (usually fruitlessly) for stray golf balls. Scoring poorly
is not the reason. It shouldn't take appreciably longer to shoot 120 than 80.
Anyway, the 18 holes played yesterday took about 5 hours - all in all, not so
bad (but then, my previous attempt at 18 ended at the 12th, 4.5 hours after
first teeing it up; now THAT'S s-l-o-w!). The most irritating aspect of slow
play (for me anyway) isn't so much watching the bozos in front of us as it is
feeling the glares of the groups behind us (real or imagined, the glares that
is).       

    Is it really so facetious to suggest that people be asked to take
    a little quiz prior to teeing off to see if they are aware of some
    of the fundamentals of golf etiquette?
    
    Anyway, Sue and I will give Green Meadows #2 a try this weekend
    and let you all know how long it takes. So far, our luck's been
    pretty good on #1 there (I figure 5 hours on a typical weekend is
    about average...when it starts creeping up to 5.5 to 6 I really
    start getting bugged). I also plan to have my buddy Hank with us,
    who is slowly beginning to understand that it's not cool to take
    5 minutes looking for a ball, unless you're willing to wave the
    next group on while you conduct your search...now if I can get him
    to cut down on the number of practise swings, we'll make real progress!
        

    In response to why we all started this stuff....
    
    I believe that technically there is no such thing as "Ladies Tees"
    anymore according to the new USGA method of course ratings. I agree
    with doing away with this designation for several reasons one of
    which is that in the case of "Slammin' Susie" she obviously doesn't
    need to play from and receive the advantages presented by "Ladies
    Tees". There are many such cases of not needing to play from the
    forward tees but here is a key that ties this into the issue of
    slow play - there are many people out there who need the option
    of playing the same course that we do from easier tee positions.
    Many of these people - senior citizens, children, etc. - would never
    think of playing from the Ladies Tees but would jump at the chance
    to play a course from the forward tees.
    
    The option of a golfer to select how he or she will play a golf
    course should not be dictated by sex but by how they can best enjoy
    playing this sport. Granted what appears to be the problem is that
    courses are not presenting the golfers with these options. What
    has to be realized by us all is that maintaining these areas is
    not cost free when you consider that the areas have to be continually
    mowed, seeded, fertilized, repaired, watered, etc. (devils' advocate
    mode) and that some courses may not want to expend the effort to
    provide another teeing position. This is especially true with public
    courses ( and even truer with M.D.C. courses ). I have not encountered
    any public courses that outwardly discouraged women from playing
    on the courses at any times. ( I talked, however, to several female
    marshals at the DEC Seniors tournament last week and they said that
    their club will not let them tee off until the afternoon on weekends
    and they seemed to accept this as their lot in life. Pembroke C.C.,
    I believe, had a run in because of their policy regarding women
    playing on weekends that severely affected the club.)
    
    I've rambled enough here. The point is that the option for the use
    of tees should not be viewed from the standpoint of ones sex but
    rather from the standpoint of ability and desire to play a course
    a certain way.
    
    On slow play....
    
    I have been held up by women on a golf course.
    
    I have been held up to a greater extent, though by men who think
    that they can clear a stream some 230 yds distant, hit a low-rising
    hook fade from the woods to a pin tucked behind a cavernous bunker. 
    All regard to safety on the course aside part of the problem is
    knowing one's ability on the course. A shot like this is a career
    shot that many of the best wouldn't think of trying to pull off
    and although I wouldn't mind waiting on the tee for Jack Nicklaus
    to try this shot I think most of us would need reality checks if
    we were to wait and force others to wait.
    
    No one has mentioned the number one enemy in golf =====> GOLF CARTS!
    
    I don't care how good you are. Unless you give everyone in your
    group a golf cart to play out of then you are going to play slower
    in a golf cart. Up until this year I had always held Stow Acres
    in high regard for their reluctance to allow carts onto the courses.
    I am certain that the results of the new owners policy can be seen
    and felt. The fairways get packed, the cart paths get dustier, some
    boob always goes where they aren't supposed to go. The carts are
    a fascinating way to gain easy money for the courses. They do damage
    the courses especially the public courses where the cart riders
    resemble rodeo cowboys.
    
    Slow play evolved along with golf carts and TV Golf because of two
    factors - you never hit the ball where you want it and if you should
    actually leave the comfort of the cart to find your ball on the
    other side of the fairway you never have the club that you either
    want or need to make the next shot.
    
    Bring back the caddies.
    
    If you have ever had the pleasure to play a good club with the help
    of a caddy you will know what I mean. Golf, in my opinion, is not
    what is played out there on the public courses today. The sport
    involves more than whacking at the ball, jumping into a cart, grabbing
    a brew and speeding down the fairway oblivious to all around you.
    The key today, for golfers, is finding the spots where the game
    is still respected. I'm not talking about playing golf as if it
    were a religious experience but merely enjoying the game, understanding
    its foundations and helping (allowing) others to share the game.
    
    The Flame has died down now and I will leave in my quest to find
    such a spot.
    
    Thanks for the therapy,
    
    Murph

    re .11
    
       just a note...   Our club a few years back started putting small
    garbage cans, with lids, filled with grass seed, sand, and loam
    mixture on each tee.  If you take a divot you fill it with the mixture.
    Our tees remain beautiful all year long.  Usually the first or second
    guy in the foursome has the little shovel in hand and fills whatever
    on the way off the tee after the last guy hits.  It works very well.

From GOLF Magazine, August 1987...

"What is your attitude toward women golfers?"

53.3%	-	"They deserve equal access and playing privileges
		on the golf course."

32.4%	-	"Let the good ones tee off whenever they want and
		restrict the high handicappers."

10.1%	-	"They should be restricted to non-busy times of the day."

4.2% 	-	Did not respond.

What do you think?

    RE .13
    
    I guess I'm in the majority for a change on that one.  If you pay
    the same amount of money you should have the same access.
    
    							KO

RE. 11
    
******
    What has to be realized by us all is that maintaining these areas is
    not cost free when you consider that the areas have to be continually
    mowed, seeded, fertilized, repaired, watered, etc. (devils' advocate
    mode) and that some courses may not want to expend the effort to
    provide another teeing position. This is especially true with public
    courses ( and even truer with M.D.C. courses ).
******

Ironically, one of the courses I was complaining about not having
Ladies' (or Forward) tees (Leo J. Martin) has the absolute worst
tees I've ever seen, anywhere! So it's not the expense of main-
taining another set of tees that's the problem - they don't even
maintain the ones they've already got! One the 8th tee you need
a hammer to get the tee into the ground. Makes you wish they had
a supply of sand so you could do as they did in the old days, and
build a little mound to hit from.

I certainly agree with the concept of making courses playable by
all who have the time and inclination; forward tees certainly help
the less physically gifted of either sex (sorry I haven't been
keeping up to date - has the USGA done away with women's par also?).

    
    ****    
    I have been held up to a greater extent, though by men who think
    that they can clear a stream some 230 yds distant, hit a low-rising
    hook fade from the woods to a pin tucked behind a cavernous bunker. 
    All regard to safety on the course aside part of the problem is
    knowing one's ability on the course. A shot like this is a career
    shot that many of the best wouldn't think of trying to pull off
    and although I wouldn't mind waiting on the tee for Jack Nicklaus
    to try this shot I think most of us would need reality checks if
    we were to wait and force others to wait.
    ****

Well, yeah, I guess you're right. Not many of us have the ability to
execute such marvels...but one of the things that make golf fun (and
frustrating) is believing it might be possible, just this once! Why
not (as McCumber did) attempt a driver off the fairway for instance? If it
works, you can brag about it a long time! And if it doesn't, well, better
luck next time. When it comes to hitting out of the forest, however,
I'm as big a coward as you'll ever find. That little ball comes back
off an oak tree much too fast for my reflexes!

******    
    No one has mentioned the number one enemy in golf =====> GOLF CARTS!
******    

Now here I really have to argue. I rarely if ever use a cart (for one
thing, they're expensive, and for another, I AM trying to get some exercise
by walking), but last Sunday I did. I was pooped, having walked the course
at Nashawtuc the day before, but I wanted to play and not croak somewhere
around the 12th hole, so I rented a cart. I was still tired at the end of
18, but I was able to make it; and furthermore, I sure didn't cause any
delays, even though I was sharing the cart with my golf partner. One of us
would get to his ball, jump out, and select a club; and the other would drive
off to the other ball. I have seen people in carts who don't have sense enough
to take advantage of them (drive to each ball individually, or walk across the
fairway to pick a different club, etc).

But, of greater significance (and in keeping with your point about making
golf accessible to all, regardless of age or infirmities) is that carts make
it possible for people to play who would not be able to otherwise. Case in
point: My father-in-law is 71, and has a bad knee. He plays 18 to 36 holes
every weekend, and several times during the week also. He shoots in the mid-
70's to low 80's for 18 on a regulation (and very tough) course. He is one
hell of a golfer. But he could not play without a cart. We played Stow last
winter (before the snow and the new policy), and he had to quit after 9
because of his knee.

It's not so much the carts as it is the people who drive them. The same
clowns who run red lights and cut you off on 128 are going to behave that
way in a golf cart (and you don't even need a license to drive one
of those). Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...
    
******
    If you have ever had the pleasure to play a good club with the help
    of a caddy you will know what I mean. Golf, in my opinion, is not
    what is played out there on the public courses today. The sport
    involves more than whacking at the ball, jumping into a cart, grabbing
    a brew and speeding down the fairway oblivious to all around you.
    The key today, for golfers, is finding the spots where the game
    is still respected. I'm not talking about playing golf as if it
    were a religious experience but merely enjoying the game, understanding
    its foundations and helping (allowing) others to share the game.
******    

Not a lot of argument here. I played in Mexico last May, on vacation, where
a caddy is required (the clubs insist, since the caddies are so financially
dependent on tourist golfers for their living). I played the San Isidro course
in Guadalajara, and the Atlas Golf Club, also in that city, and had two of the
most helpful caddies you can imagine. One of them (Angel) had been caddying for
40 years (!) and knew every blade of grass on the course. If my playing had
been close to his caddying, I'd have shot a 65 that day. The other caddy
(Arturo) was a lot younger, but a hell of a player in his own right. He'd
won the national caddy championship a year or two earlier, and had a great
swing (which he demo'd for me to try to show me what I wasn't doing right).
But it sure puts pressure on you to have people THAT good following you around
watching everything you do!!

By the way, if you ever do find one of the spots where golf is respected, would
you share it with me? I'm getting a little tired of being surrounded by people
who play golf (or, play at it) because the miniature golf courses are too
crowded. Thanks.

	Frank
    
P.S. Is Kitansett your home course? If so, congratulations on playing
    one of GOLF magazine's top 100!    
	
    

    RE: .15
    
    You and I are not really far apart on our basic philosophies but
    I still despise carts. I realize that they allow persons like your
    father-in-law (as well as many of the Senior Pros) to keep playing
    the game that we all love. My point about carts was more directed
    to the clowns you mentioned who drive as if the course was theirs
    and that there was nothing that they could do with (or to) a cart
    that would cause any damage.
    
    I have never had a decent round of golf out of a cart. I always
    find myself in the position of not having the right club. I have
    tried the method of taking several clubs with me but find myself
    asking "If I wanted to carry all these clubs with me why did I take
    a cart?" also the result is that I am too sheepish (or vain) to
    admit I selected the wrong club from my now distant bag and play
    a forced shot.
    
    A note of interest would be to sit by the first tee at one of these
    clubs and take note of just who takes the carts out. I think that
    you would be amazed at the profile that you construct. I believe
    that the carts are not used by the older set, or the women or, for
    that matter, by many of the better (handicapped) golfers. Instead
    I believe that the profile of the cart golfer would be that of a
    younger (25 to 40) 'athlete' who's handicap rarely approaches
    meaningful golf. 
    
    I have to face it - the cart exists because of the revenue that
    it brings into a golf course - not because of the esthetics that
    it adds to the game. My slogan will remain - "Money talks - GOLFERS
    walk!"
    
    Please remind me to be on the lookout for your father-in-law. He
    sounds like a classic and a fine golfer. My best to him for many
    more years in the fairway.
    
    A course to visit on weekends...Pocasset in Bourne. Call ahead for
    a tee time. This is a 'semi-private' club (What does that mean?)
    that allows public play. I think the course dates back to 1930 or
    so and was built by Donald Ross and modified in the last few years
    to make room for some housing. The modifications didn't change the
    character of the course but served to strengthen it. The key is
    to try to get out before the members tee off (at 8:00 AM) for their
    weekend tournaments. This is an almost guaranteed sub 4 hour round
    on an excellently conditioned and maintained course. If you miss
    the pre-tourney times you can still move right along starting at
    about 11:00 AM for what is definitely a sub 5 hour round. The ony
    problem historically has been that leaving this area in the afternoon
    on a weekend put you right in the middle of the Cape traffic - perhaps
    this is why the course still works? This is a hilly course and you
    may want one of those machine things to carry your clubs.
    
    Regards Kitansett....I worked there while in High School and managed
    to find a house fairly close. NFW at being a member. I have to be
    content with driving or fishing by the deserted fairways. (If these
    courses are so good then why don't the members play them?)
    
    See you soon.

    Re. 16
    
    The reason so many carts are used by the clowns is, it's hard to
    schlep a beer cooler around the course without one! Not too long
    ago, at Green Meadows in Hudson, NH, I saw a guy in his 20's try
    to bribe the starter to let him carry a beer cooler in his cart
    (they are not allowed up there - still, it's amazing how many dis-
    carded beer cans litter the teeing areas). The starter refused the
    bribe (got quite indignant), but did not throw the guy off the course.
    Too bad...
    
    I use a pullcart (unmotorized) usually, and find that to be just
    fine on most occasions.
    
    I remember playing Pocasset sometime in the 60's, and remember its
    being hilly and pretty tight. The guy I played with never got his
    ball airborne, or hit it more than 150 yards all during the round,
    but still beat me because he stayed away from all the trouble. I
    was hitting it high, wide and deep most of the time! Thanks for
    the reminder. I'll have to give it a try, once Labor Day has come
    and gone (I used to venture Capeward during the "season" but not
    anymore).
    
    	Frank
    

         Re caddies:

	 All caddies  are  not that good.  This is what Jack Nicklaus had to
	 say about himself caddying for his son Jack Jr.:

	 ``I had no yardages, or anything. If I worked for me 
           I'd be fired!''

	 -- Mr Litby

     Based on most of the replies to this topic and the diverse opinions
  in all of them, it is no wonder that we all feel golf is becoming a
  frustrating test of patience. For example.....

     re: Waving on groups on par 3's    Someone mentioned that is Ok to
         do it if the next tee is clear to speed things up, but doesn't make 
         sense if it is backed up.  HUH??????!!!!!?????  I feel just the 
         opposite. If the next tee is clear I do not want to wave the group 
         behind us on. This will delay our group more and open up more space 
         ahead of us, making my group look like it is holding up the works. If
         there is a backup on the next tee then I feel it is Ok to wave
         the group up to the green. My group ain't going anywhere, and by
         waiting for the next group to hit to the green, maybe by the time
         we finish out the next tee will clear. 

     re: Waiting for players waiting for players 250 yards away to clear before
         hitting. Don't judge everyone as inconsiderate clods for doing this.
         I happen to do this, because I can hit that kind of shot and under
         favorable conditions would want to try it. I think it more considerate
         waiting for the people to clear so I don't kill anyone. 

     re: Slow play. What about the good players? I sometimes appear as a slow
         player on the greens, because I actually try to read the greens and
         size up the putt. But please don't yell at me to speed up because I
         do other things to keep up with the group ahead of me. Like taking
         15 - 30 shots less than other golfers per round, hitting it in play
         unlike most other golfers, etc. etc. 



    A summary example of why I flaming on.

       I play in a DEC league at Green Meadow, and we share the tee with 
     another company. My group was sandwiched between two of the other
     leagues groups. We are on a Par 4 green and the next hole is a par 3.
     I notice that the group on the par 3 green waves the group on the tee
     up. My group gets to the par 3 tee and waits as the group ahead of us
     chips up and putts out (they did not wave us up). It was a long wait
     before we got to the green and started putting out. The group behind
     us was a full hole behind when we were on the par 4 green, but now
     had caught up to us just as we started to putt out. There is now 
     daylight opening up on the next hole and I am being careful with a 
     four foot putt for par. A jerk in the group behind us then yells at
     us to hurry it up. Mind you, they had just got to the tee. I was
     furious and after teeing off on the next hole, I then went back to 
     the par 3 green and teed off on the jerk that yelled at us. All this
     caused by one group waving the next group on, but the group ahead of
     us not doing the same. From then on, I have made it a point NEVER to
     wave a group up and we never have had a problem again.

     PS.  The jerk and his group ended up finishing a hole and 1/2 behind
          us, and we did NOT speed up our play.


-rick- (who has been playing for 24 years, has caddied, played in tournaments,
        belonged to private clubs, worked as an pro shop assistant, plays public
        courses, and sees NO solution to the problem)

    Obviously we took a left somewhere...this topic wasn't intended
    to discuss slow play (see Note 63). It's awfully frustrating, to
    be sure!
    
    	Frank
    

    This was an interesting note. It started off with some good points
    about tees, and the different styles of courses, etc.
    
      As far as slow play is concerned, it is a fact of life on public
    courses. After reading the comments, I hope I never get in front
    of most of you people.
    
    Summary:
    
     Don't take practice swings. Don't take off your shirt, and shorts
    are out. No carts!. I am not sure if it's ok to wave a foursome
    on when on the green on a par 3 hole, (i usually do). Don't take
    any shots which you are not sure you can make. Don't look for a
    ball in the woods. Keep putting until you hole out. Don't talk while
    on or near the green. NEVER mark your ball when you are within 2
    feet of the cup, (i guess we don't miss these). No beer. Hurry when
    walking to your ball. 
    
    I too, am greatly bothered by slow play, but also realize that public
    courses are just that - everyone can play. But usually I play matches
    with my friends and we are very competitive. If I did everything
    mentioned in the comments included in this note, it would make the
    match VERY boring and dull. We may as well simply match cards at
    the end.
    
      Smitty

    Brian Bakstran@ogo DTN: 276-8305 STOWOA::BBAKSTRAN
    
    CLUBS FOR SALE- Excellent starter set. Wilson Pro-Staffs. I am missing
                    the 6 iron. It was stolen. Have all other irons
    		    including the wedge.
    
    			$100