Conference 7.286::golf

    Arizona Biltmore Country Club
    public/private--that means that during the summer, when temperatures
    reach up to 118F, the rates go down and the general public can play.
    In the winter, when temperatures can be very mild and pleasant,
    the rates can be extremely high, and the course is VERY PRIVATE.
    Staying in a good hotel, the concierge can sometimes get you on.
    Late April is a transition time.
    
    Two courses here--the ADOBE, and the LINKS.  I played the ADOBE.
    
    Course is in good shape, very attractive.  Excellent service--staff
    meets you at car, picks up/drops off clubs, etc.
    
    6440 yards from white(men's) tees, 6039 yards from red (ladies')
    tees.  
    
    Not too many traps or water hazards, but lots of cedars about 10
    ft in diameter and 15-20 ft tall--very dense, along the edges. 
    If your ball goes into one--good-bye.
    
    Very pleasant.

    	I also got to play THE PHOENICIAN golf course.  Very lush 
    landscaping, excellent condition.  LOT of hazards--93 large traps
    and 15 lakes, very narrow fairways in between hazards.  Beautiful
    views from high points on course of metropolitan Phoenix.
    
    	Spectacular flowers, excellent condition, outstanding service--
    they cleaned my clubs before putting in car.  Course is on the short
    side, but makes up for that in requirements for accuracy.
    
    			Men		Ladies
    	Yardage		6006		5030
    	Rating (par)	68.6		68.0
    
    	This was lots of fun--I'd definitely go again.
    
    

    RE TO 4.1
         I have played the links course at the Biltmore and it has all
    you could ever want tin traps and hazzords.  Two holes come to mind
    the 12 (I beleve) it is a dog leg left blind shot that you have
    to lay up because there is a lake in front of the green. Then 
    chip to a postage stamp of a green with traps on all three
    sides. The other one is 15 i think, it has an elevated tee and
    is 160yd par 3 the problen in the only grass is on the tee and
    the green the rest is desert. It is a fun course to play but
    not at $35.00 a pop even with a cart included. I haven't played
    there since New Year's eve day 1983.
    
    kendall

    
    
      I grew up in the Phoenix area and joined the junior tour while
      in high school. I played many courses in the area and would 
      reccommend the following courses:
    
      Goodyear Golf and Country Club- Gold Course..The best challenge
      of golf skills in the greater Phoenix area! The gold tees play
      about 7440 yards. Great condition and relatively cheap green
      fees during the summer.
    
      Orange Tree Golf Club- An immaculate course, never a bad lie in
      the fairway! Relatively short with plenty of out-of-bounds since
      the course is laid out in a residential area. Kind of ritzy, and
      green fees are reasonable in the summer.
    
      Anasazi Golf Course (Formerly Mummy Mountain)- An interesting
      "Scottish" layout with little tree problems. A real challenge
      to your game since many small hills are located on the course.
      Rarely a flat lie. From the championship tees, somewhat lengthy.
    
      Gold Canyon Ranch- A nightmare for the golfer with little control.
      I have never seen a more unforgiving desert layout. The back nine
      was designed by a real diabolical person. Fairly short, but believe
      me, out there it doesn't make a difference. Bring plenty of balls.
    
      Pinnacle Peak Country Club- Super slick greens on a long course,
      hope you can make a long iron sing. Well manicured, and out of
      the city quite a ways, but it is worth the trip.
    
      If you ever get the chance, go to Riudoso, New Mexico and play
      Inn of the Mountain Gods Golf Course. Very simply put, the most
      beautiful course I have ever played!!
    
      Eugene in Phoenix 

    Re. 4
    
    I just got back from Phoenix/Tucson area, and played a very nice
    course in Mesa - Dobson Ranch (listed in Golf Digest as one of the
    best municipal courses in the state). In Tucson, played Randolph
    (South, I think - whichever was the shorter of the courses there).
    Also a nice course, well kept and an interesting variety of holes.
    Unfortunately, my game was totally out of kilter, so my memories
    of Randolph are not likely to be happy ones...
    
    Interesting note about Inn Of The Mountain Gods (actually it's in
    Mescalero, the name of the Apache tribe that owns and operates the
    Inn). The Inn is considered one of the top resorts in *the world*!
    My wife and I stumbled across it back in the summer of 1983.
    My reason for being in that part of the world was a sentimental
    journey, visiting places near Holloman AFB, in Alamogordo, where
    I'd been stationed in the mid 1950's. My recollections about the
    Mescalero Apaches were that they were completely downtrodden, at
    the very bottom of the socio-economic scale. You can imagine my
    amazement when I discovered the Inn of The Mountain Gods! Things
    have certainly changed for the better, at least economically. One
    of these days I'd like to go back and play a few rounds on the
    course they carved out of the mountains. (In 83 neither my wife
    nor I were playing golf.)
    
    Frank

      RE: .1
         
               Wow ! I have heard nearly all these comments before !

                 <<< MSEE::USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< The Good Game >-
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Note 882.0                     Golfing in Phoenix?                     3 replies
ATPS::MILLER                                         14 lines   8-MAR-1990 15:17
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    	Am planning on spending a week in the Phoenix area at the 
    	end of March.  I am looking for suggestions on golf courses
    	to play.  So far I have recommendations for :
    
    		McDonald - in Tempe, a municipal course
    
    		Papago Park - Phoenix/Tempe, also a municipal course
    
    		Awautukee(sp) - semi-private, Tempe/Mesa area.
    
    	I will be staying in the Mesa area near Tempe.  Anyone have
    	any suggestions re course availability?
    

                 <<< MSEE::USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< The Good Game >-
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Note 882.1                     Golfing in Phoenix?                        1 of 3
CNTROL::PINHO                                        43 lines   8-MAR-1990 17:17
                           -< Some Phoenix Courses >-
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    These courses are all good, but you may find it quite difficult to get
    on some of them this time of year.  The reason is that the 'snow birds'
    ususally don't begin to leave until Mid-April, many of them are
    homeowners in the Mesa/Tempe areas and as such qualify as 'residents'. 
    Because of the high demand for tee times, these courses usually require
    that you are a resident in the town (at least 2 out of foursome). They
    will allow you to wait around to join a group, or you can play after 3
    pm.  I will comment on your selections and offer a few you may want to
    try.  I do not know your ability, but I've played almost every course
    in Tempe/Mesa and Chandler, so here goes.
    
    Ken McDonald (Tempe) - Excellent Layout, usually ingreat condition, I
    would recommend you purchase one of their 'yardage books' to help you
    with the distances.
    
    Ahwatukee (Ahwatukee)- Always in top condition, alot of traps and some
    water, you usually need a resident to play there (unless you want to
    play at 5:30 am).
    
    Dobson Ranch (Mesa) - This course hosts over 200,000 rounds per year
    !!!  Although I played here alot (I was a Mesa resident) I feel the
    course was not extremely challenging (flat, wide open).
    
    Superstition Springs (Chandler) - If you can get to play here DO IT!!
    one of the finest examples of challenging golf in the entire Phoenix
    area!!  This is (was) a open course, you could reserve tee times up to
    7 days ahead, with a Visa card.
    
    Sun Bird (Chandler) - This is a LONG par 3, very challenging, alot of
    water and sand, excellent and cheap!!
    
    San Marcos (Chandler) - The first grass course in Phoenix, very
    beautiful, large trees, some water, gorgeous!!  Call ahead, I think you
    will be able to get a good tee time here.
    
    Thunderbird (Phoenix) - May be hard to find, but for $ 25 you get 18
    holes and a lunch (hamburger) and a beer!!  This course is semi-long,
    but the views are great!!!
    
    I hope this helps, if you need more info, please call DTN 225-6796
    
    John 
     

                 <<< MSEE::USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< The Good Game >-
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Note 882.2                     Golfing in Phoenix?                        2 of 3
BIMINI::FOX                                          10 lines   8-MAR-1990 19:04
                            -< Just played there! >-
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    I just came back from there and played twp courses in the area
    Arrowhead and The Ledgends an Arnold Palmer course. Both were great
    and while Arrowhead was a little more expensive it was in a little
    better shape than the Ledgends. However the Ledgends seems to have
    run into financial problems so they don't have a formal clubhouse
    just a trailor but the course is in good shape. On either course
    you must call for reservations however the Ledgens seemed to be
    open during the week and you could get right on. If you need more
    info or #'s I think I have them in the office. If you want the info
    send me mail Bimini::fox.

                 <<< MSEE::USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< The Good Game >-
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Note 882.3                     Golfing in Phoenix?                        3 of 3
HKFINN::F_MCGOWAN "Zoot who?"                        17 lines   9-MAR-1990 07:05
                         -< One vote for Dobson Ranch >-
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    I was out there a couple of years ago, and tried to play Papago
    on the recommendation of a colleague who's a native of Phoenix;
    but the wait to tee off was several hours. I played Dobson Ranch
    instead, and found it quite challenging enough for my game, as well
    as a nice layout (and not terribly expensive).
    
    If you have the time, it's worth a day trip North to Sedona, or
    South to Tucson. Randolph CC in Tucson has two 18-hole courses;
    and if you look at the February issue of GOLF, you'll see there's
    a great course to play in Sedona. Heck, it's worth going up to
    Sedona even without the golf - spectacularly beautiful.
    
    Have a good trip, and remember not to wear any of your good neckties
    if you go up to the Pinnacle Peak steakhouse...all neckties worn
    there are cut off and pinned to the wall!
    
    	Frank

    	Thanks very much for all the info.  I have called my son who lives
    	in Tempe with all this data to start calling and making
    	arrangements, tee times, etc.  Sure looking forward to the already
    	80 degree Arizona weather.
    

    I need some help selecting a course to play in Phoenix this coming
    Sunday.  I have a coice of the following courses and I am an
    infrequent hacker with about a 25 handicap on a good day.
    
    McCormick Ranch
    Arizona Biltmore
    Camelback Inn
    Orange Tree
    Wigwam
    
    I am kind of leaning toward Orange Tree or Camelback but am open
    to any and all suggestions.  I am planning on renting clubs so I
    don't have to carry mine with me so that might eliminate some of
    the courses that don't rent clubs.
    
    Looking forward to your inputs.
    
    
    regards,
    
    Dave

     Orange Tree !! They rent clubs, and it is one of the best public
    courses anywhere. They used to have limos from some hotels (The
    Pointe), and your hotel may be able to get you a starting time or a
    reduced rate.
    
    -- Jack

    re .13
    
    The lad knows whereof he speaks.  Do Orangetree.  Great place.
    Just called them up and the green fee is $45 + tax (6%?), includes 
    tax.  They have a tournament Sunday morning but plenty of space in the
    afternoon.  I would go with you but I am playing tomorrow P.M. and
    Saturday morning and I'll be in no shape for anything Sunday.
    (I live in Phoenix.)
    Harold 

                 <<< MSEE::USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                      -< The TRUE Head Game... ;-)...:-{ >-
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Note 1025.0                    Golf in Arizona ??                     No replies
MUNKAD::DENIS                                        18 lines  23-JUL-1990 07:00
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Hello out there,
I'm going on holiday this October to the state 
of Arizona, and I'm consequently interested
in all the information I can get about Golf
courses and golf in general in that state.

As you Americans may be aware, golf equipment
in Europe costs an arm & a leg -  so I also intend
to buy a decent set of clubs when I'm there...

... so if anybody knows where the good bargins
    are to be had out Arizona way, then I'll be
    more than delighted to hear from you

cheers in advance

DENIS

    Don't know that this will help, but in absence of other replies, here
    goes.  I've played several times in Ariz.  Mostly on resort courses in
    the Phoenix and Tuscon area.  Typically, these courses are pretty
    expensive.  Fees in the $50+ range.  Also, equipment at these resorts
    is not inexpensive.  I suggest that you consult the "yellow pages" of
    the local telephone directory and look for local golf shops such as
    Nevada Bob's, Pro Golf Discount, etc.  They typically stock more
    variety of hardware at better prices than do the pro shops.  Good luck. 
    I'm sure that you will enjoy the golf out there.  In the hot dessert
    air, the ball really travels.  You wont believe how far you can hit it
    out there.
    
    Closs

    
    
    Well, I got lucky and landed a job in Tempe. I arrive some time
    in early April after going to vax 9000 school at BTO.
    
    Are there any DEC leagues in the Pheonix area?
    
    Dave

    MUST BE SOME.  SEVERAL OF THE SALES PEOPLE ARE AVID GOLFERS.  LOOK UP
    GEORGE DRESSER AND HE CAN GET YOU STARTED.  SO MANY COURSES AND 365
    GOOD OR GREAT DAYS TO PLAY.  YOU MUST PLAY OCOTILLO AND STONECREEK. 
    EXCELLENT VALUE AND AWESOME COURSES.
    
    SO CAL DANDY

    Just a bit of notes etiquette...
    
    Typing in upper case is considered SHOUTING.  Please use lower case for
    a normal tone.

    
    Well, I just got back from the house hunting trip and must admit
    that the more I see of the area the more I like it.
    
    Played Ocotillo on Thursday afternoon while the little lady was
    visiting with friends. Played TPC on Saturday morning. I liked
    Ocotillo better that TPC, lot more water and in better shape.
    Look forward to many rounds on both courses in the next couple
    of years.
    
    Dave
    
    who may have talked the little lady into buying a house at Ocotillo.
    

    Congrats,
    
    Make sure you factor in the extra money for a pontoon boat to float
    around the lake and visit neighbors on Friday evenings.  Sounds like a
    great way to live.  
    
    So Cal Dandy

One and All,

Since I live in the area of the Open I will post the leaders in this note 
each morning until it's over. For our friends in the Far East and Europe
I will try to post the results of players from your part of the world
regardless of their position.

As most of you know a tragic storm cost the life of one spectator and
injured 5 more - one seriously. The storm caused nearly a 3 hour delay so
not all golfers completed their round yesterday. So here is a composite 
of what's done so far. Greg Norman fans can begin weeping now.

The Leaders

   67 - Noaln Henke
   67 - Payne Stewart
   68 - Tom Byrum
   69 - Scott Hoch
   69 - Mark Calcavecchia

The Followers

  70 - Jack Nicklaus
  70 - Craig Parry
  70 - Davis Love III
  70 - Scott Simpson
  70 - Kieth Clearwater
  70 - Jim Gallagher
  70 - Fred Couples
  
Others

  72 - Nick Flado
  72 - Fuzzy Zeoller
  73 - Wayne Grady
  73 - Ian Woosnam
  74 - Nick Price
  75 - Bernhard Langer
  76 - Billy Andrade (snowman on 15 and 16)
  77 - Lee Trevino
  77 - Jumbo Osaki
  77 - Ian Baker-Finch (picked by local writers to win)
  78 - Greg Norman (43 on the front 9)

Did not Finish

  Seve Ballesteros (even with 3 holes to play)
  Sandy Lyle (-1 with 4 to play)
  

    I will be travelling to Phoenix in October for a trade show.  One of my
    colleagues and I plan to play some golf while we are there.  Our plane
    touches down at 11:10 on Sunday, Oct 6.  We figure on playing 18 that
    afternoon.  From the information I've gleaned in this note, it looks
    like Dobson Ranch, McDonald, and Papago Park are all relatively close
    to the airport.  Allowing time to claim our golf clubs and get a rental
    car, we should be able to make a tee-time around 1:00-1:30.

	Is this realistic?
	What are the chances of getting a tee time?
	Can someone supply the phone numbers for these courses and
	  the policy (how many days in advance) for tee-times?
	Are there any locals who would like to join us?  I carry a 24
	  handicap and Pat is arount 18-20.
	What time will it get dark?
	What should we expect for air temperature?

    Any info appreciated
      Paul Lemaire

Hi Golf-Fans,
I am a Golf-aholic from Munich and we do have a Digital GolfClub with
about 20 members in our area.
I am off for two weeks holiday in Phoenix Arizona on Nov.9th . As I have
already booked my tee-times at - I think - hopelfully on interesting
courses like Phooenician, Ocotillo, Gold Canyon, Troon North, Desert
 Mountain, Boulders, Troon e.g. I would like to get some interesting
hints about the courses. I am staying in the Phoenician Resort.
Any inputs or feedbacks from your side.
Are there some good deals on balls or clubs at Nevada Bobs or others?
Thanks for your suggestions.
Rita Oberberger
All-in-1 address is: @	RTO

re: 4.25

I was in Phoenix Oct 6-10 and played some of the courses you mentioned
(you got good advise, as I did).

Ocotillo: features water on almost every hole!  Buy the yardage book.
    This course, while not particularly tough, demands good course
    management.  Funny anecdote: the sprinkler heads are marked for
    distance.  My playing partner sliced a drive on one of the par
    fives.  By force of habit, he went to the nearest sprinkler for
    a distance reading.  The reading was "Just hit it!"

Gold Canyon: Spectacular views on the back nine!  Watch out for the
    "jumping cactus": if you brush up against one of these, it will
    'jump' toward you.  After you play here, drive west to Apache Junction
    then northeast to Tortilla Flat for pitchers of beer and good food.

The other course we played was Red Mountain Ranch: this is a Pete Dye course.
    It was significantly tougher than the other courses we played.
    If you play here, play from the tees that are recommended for your
    handicap.  We didn't, and my miserable score was a result.  This
    course demands accuracy on approach shots: it is not always sufficient
    to be on the green; you need to be on the right part of the green.

There are enough golfers and golf courses in Phoenix that the market for
equipment and supplies should be very competitive.  I brought everything
I needed so I can't attest to that fact but a quick tour by phone should
confirm it.  Look for coupons in the sports page of the local newspaper.
We got a good discount at Gold Canyon via a newspaper coupon.

    Has anyone played Papago lately. I'm heading to Phoenix this weekend
    for golf and the Giants (Ugh!!) Cards game. There will be 15 of us.
    We're set up for the TPC Saturday and have a free afternoon. Thought
    I'd play Papago if it's in good shape.
    
    Ken

    Took my trip to Phoenix this past weekend. Had a chance to play three
    times.
    
    First day played a magnificant course Superstition Springs. One of the
    ten most beautiful courses I've ever played. Great shape although the
    greens had been recently overseeded and were puttable but a little
    shaggy.
    
    Second day played another good course Ocitillo. Plenty of water. They
    have twenty seven holes and water in play on 21. Weather wasn't great
    but it was nice.
    
    Third day was a trip. Played the ASU Karsten Golf Course. It's a Pete
    Dye course. As far as I am concerned Pete Dye can find another day job.
    This place was nothing but big mounds, little mounds, and more mounds.
    It look like a great place to ski. It had narrow fairways and a little
    bit of water with the typical railroad ties setting. I felt it was very
    unfair. If you hit it off the fairway you were behind a mound. Either
    on the upslope of one or the downslope of another. I'm talking SEVERE
    lies. In many cases you had to hit a club with enough loft to get over
    the mound but it wouldn't be enough club to reach the greens. 
    
    To put it in perspective, the best Phil Mickelson ever shot there was
    67. Course is not deathly long 7050 from the tips, but you better bring
    you straightest driver. ASU plays there and its open to the public.
    Greens fees in season $47.00 with cart and you get a sleeve of Titleist
    balls. Balata or surlyn. I just didn't enjoy it at all. I won low gross
    with an 88. 16 of us played it for the first time. No one else broke
    100 and there were some single digit handicap players in the group. 
    
    Ken

    How far were Superstition Springs & Octillo from the Sky Harbor
    Airport?  I'm staying over after a meeting in a few weeks to play a
    Saturday morning round.  I have a 3.00pm flight & the concierge at the
    hotel I'm staying had recommended the Karsten course as  the handiest
    to both the hotel (in Tempe) & the airport - after your description I
    think I'll pass on that one.
    
    David

    Super Springs and Ocitillo are too far to play and make a 3:00 flight
    unless you get an early tee time. It would be worth it too play either
    one if you can swing an early tee time. 
    
    Best bet is to play Karsten ASU. Karsten ASU is worth seeing. I'm not
    sure how fond you are of Pete Dye so I'll defer comments. Good Luck
    
    Ken

    Also available and close by is the Pointe at South Mountain course,
    just south of the airport.  Papago is just a few minutes north of the
    airport as well.  The Pointe course has some very interesting holes,
    like teeing off of the side of a mountain on a few par threes, some
    target golf holes, water etc.  You play right through/along a park and
    preserve even though you are in the middle of a big resort.  NIce
    course and easy to get on usually, probably $50 with cart.
    
    Have fun.
    
    SoCalDandy

    Thanks, I played The Pointe at South Mountain once before & it cost me
    a lot of balls!  Papago was another course the concierge at my hotel
    suggested, it & Karetsn ASU are the two closest (10 minutes) what is it
    like for a high handicapper?

    For Sale BIG Bertha war bird firm graphite shaft 11 degree also a 7wood
    firm graphite shaft $320.00 dollars for both.  please contact Terry
    Schrepfer at DTN-247-3302 or at home 508-597-5757 or  send Email to
     
    
    
    

	not much activity in this note lately.....

	am going to Az in March and plan on spending mucho denero
	to play Troon North and TPC Scottsdale......talk me out 
	it if you can.


	my wife thanx you,

	joe

    (in case no one else does!)
     Don't go. Save your money and spend it on your wife instead.
    Put new tires on the car.
    Buy paint for the house and put it on yourself.
    Invest it.
    Send it to a stranger.

    Don't even hesitate, go, spend the money, golf and have years
    of memories!!!!!!!!
    
    Linda

    
    	Especially if you don't break 100 on TPC ;-)
    
    		the Greyhawk

the only thing over 100 better be the temperature!!!

    "or I quit at 99!!!"
    
    Again?????

    Whenever I  think of not making a fool of myself in a course like TPC
    (or Pebble Beach,  or anything like that), I put too much pressure on
    myself and end up almost always way above my average score. 
    
    Soooo...  don't worry,  pay  the  big  bucks but enjoy it!  You'll be
    surprised of the score!