Conference 7.286::golf

    Well then, what about golf in Sweden?
    
    When you think about Sweden, golf is probably not the first thing
    that comes to mind (You probably think about something entirely
    different...), but did you know that Sweden is now the fastest
    growing golfing country in Europe? I bet you didn't!
    
    Golf in Sweden used to be a very exclusive sport, mostly played
    by building tycoons, dentists, doctors, officers and so on. In fact,
    most Swedish golf clubs were founded by people from those professions
    (!). Consequently, golf was thought of as very snobbish and a little
    ridiculous (it certainly did look rather silly...)
    
    This was the situation up to let's say 5-10 years ago, when the
    golfing interest started to rise at an alarming rate. The number
    of golf clubs, at present about 180, is steadily increasing.
    
    With the exception of about 5, they are all private clubs. That
    is to say that you will not be able to play golf in Sweden unless
    you are a member of a club, but on the other hand that means that
    you can play at ANY other club for a green fee, regardless of how
    private that club happens to be.
    
    (to be continued...)
    
    / P-O.
    
    

    Some more things you should know about golf in Sweden:
    
    You will always, as a guest at a club, be welcomed with open arms.
    No club has the right to deny play to a visitor - a rule set by
    the Swedish Golf Federation. You simply put your name and home club
    down in a guest ledger, pay the green fee and start playing. Green
    fees are always per day - that is, you play as many rounds as you
    like. The fee is valid for the whole day. Green fees are usually
    around $10 - $15 US.
    
    Men-only clubs, tie-and-jacket-in-the-clubhouse rules and such are
    unheard of, although basic etiquette is important to follow.
    
    / P-O

    re: -1
    
     I find that interesting that you can play all day for one fee.
     I'm locate in Hudson, MA and usually play at Stow Acres near by.
     Two beautiful course across the street from one another under
     the same club house. The courses are public and rated in the top
     100 of public golf courses in America. I've had this hankering
     to play both course the same day but would have to pay two green's
     fee. Too bad they couldn't take a lesson from Sweden.
    
    mike
    

    re: .3
    
    I have played Stow a number of times and know what you mean.
    Occasionally I will play at Juniper Hills in Northboro Ma.. The
    owner there accually will chase you down if you attempt to play
    anymore than the 9 or 18 holes you paid for. We were in a league
    playing late into the evening. No one was left on the course and
    dusk was approaching. We finished our 9 hole match and decided to
    play the last three over again for fun only. Old Homer was waiting
    at the green on 18 and charged us $3 each for the three holes. 
    
    I would have to believe that after Golf catches on in Sweden that
    the days of the one fee will be gone. Be prepared Bjorn.
    
    Bob
    

    re: .4
    
    No Bob, that won't happen - the reason being that most clubs, being
    private, are financed by members' dues and so the green fee revenues
    aren't very critical to the clubs' finances. Also, the Swedish Golf
    Federation, to which all clubs belong, says in its statutes that
    green fees should be charged per day. This has been the case for
    50 years. As long as the golf clubs are not operated for profits,
    I think we will be able to enjoy the one-day fee for a long time
    to come.
     
    I wonder if Sweden is unique in charging green fees per *day* ?
    
    /Per-Olof
    

    Per-Olof .5
    
    The courses in Sweden do not operate for a profit? What is keeping
    a normal business man from obtaining property, laying out a golf
    course strictly as a profit venture? Most or possibily all (with
    the exception perhaps of municipal courses) public courses operate
    in this manner in the states. I sure do like the Swedish approach
    to Golf Management. 
    
    Hope to play there some day.
    
    Bob
    

    Re: Bob .6
    
    Well, there is nothing to stop you from operating a course for profit
    (there is *one* such course in the Stockholm area) - I guess 
    we just don't think about golf that way, though. 
    Courses which operate for profits are not allowed to be members
    of the Swedish Golf Federation - and that is to be at a disadvantage,
    because the SGF can help with lots of things. Also, if you're not
    a member of an SGF-affiliated club, you won't be accepted as a guest
    player anywhere else.
    
    This system has its disadvantages - it is quite hard to enter the
    game, since you first have to become a member of a club. Then you
    have to go to the pro and take lessons and tests, including rules
    quizzes. When the pro decides that you are capable of playing
    without being a hazard to yourself, other players or the course,
    he  will give you something called the 'green card'. Then, and not
    before, you will be allowed to play on the course. This green card
    also allows you to play other courses. You keep the green card until
    you have obtained an official handicap (36 or lower) - then you
    will be issued a 'handicap card'.
    This probably sounds awfully stuffy to you, like something out of
    the 19th century, but it sounds a lot worse than it is. The good
    thing about this screening system is that you can be sure that you
    never meet people on the course who have never held a golf club in their
    lives - everyone knows how to behave on a golf course.
    
    It also isn't very hard, or expensive, to join a golf club. No club
    is allowed to deny entry to anyone, if the club has room for new
    members (and the SGF checks up on that!). It is also a lot less
    expensive than in the U.S - my club, one of the most prestigious
    ones in this city, charges about $500 U.S for initiation, and then
    $300 a year in dues. Compare that to an American club!
    
    Also, in a country with only 8 million people, I don't think the
    public golf course business could be made very profitable - it's
    a lot easier to make money on the stock market...
    
    /Per-Olof
    
    
    
    
    
    

    To Bob.  
    Yes, there is such a place in the United States which charges
    a single green fee for as many holes you can possibly stand (or
    walk) to play in a single day.  It is located at the United States
    Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs.  There is one slight drawback.
    The military folk there, although they cannot stop you, rather frown
    upon us civilians when we play there.  They suggest that you be
    a guest of active or retired military personnel.  We do have friends
    in such areas, so we are able to get out there and play, but we
    haven't gone yet due to time and weather considerations.

    I think it's basically a supply & demand problem.  My parents
    are members of Diamond Oaks in Ft. Worth, Texas.  The greens fee
    covers the entire day.  If you rent a cart, however, the fee 
    is per 9 or 18, I think.
    
    I have seen courses in Texas with both per day and per-18 greens
    fees.  Getting on the private courses here in Colorado seems to
    be harder for me, so I mostly play public courses.  Those are ALL
    per 9/per 18 hole greens fees.
    
    

    Hello Folks, Just figured I'd add my thoughts on golf in sweden
    compared to the U.S. Just remember the courses here in the good
    ole U.S.ofA are mostly plush and very expensive to maintain. I
    speak from experience being a former course superintendent. I
    played golf for Temple U and had the chance to play several courses
    in Europe. I'll admit there fun to play, and there's alot of history
    behind them, but you can't beat Hilton Head or Cranberry Valley
    down on the cape. To tell you the truth, most course charge high
    rates to keep fligh by night player from hacking around. Go to a
    course on a rainy day and you'll meet the true golfers. 
    
    
                                                       Signed
                                                       A golf nut!

    (re: .10)
    
    Well, I don't know where in Europe you played, but it couldn't have
    been in Sweden...
    Seriously, I think the European way of designing golf courses is
    quite different from the way you do it in the U.S of A, at least
    if you consider the newer 'resort' type of courses (I've played
    at Wild Dunes and Seabrook Island). Here in Europe, we find a piece
    of land that is suitable for a golf course, and then we build the course by
    adapting it to the original surroundings. In America, you do the
    opposite - you take a piece of real estate, flatten it out with
    an army of bulldozers, and then put up a lot of artificial stuff
    like ponds, hills, streams and such, that wasn't there before.
    Small wonder that it costs a fortune to play there! OK, the courses
    are very well manicured, but where is the spirit of the game?
    
    I don't make better bunker shots from marble sand than from the
    old brown, plain stuff...
    
    /Per-Olof

    Re .8 - I appreciate you telling me that there is a course in Colorado
    Springs where I can play all day. I'm sure that I am still young
    enough to muster up 54 holes in one day, and I'm sure that I'm wealthy
    enough to afford the Green Fee's but I'm afraid that the air fare
    might sink that thought.
    
    Re .11 - I take exception that you believe that the U.S. of A. courses
    are all made with the aide of a bulldozer. I have played at many
    courses throughout the States and find that most take full advantage
    of the natural country side.(as I am sure does Sweden). There is
    always an exception to the rule though. There are a number of Resort
    areas that already exist and show a demand for Golf. If a course
    was set up in the natural habitat, you would require either a donkey
    to carry your bag or would have to pack a life preserver in case
    of an out of bounds. Yes, these area's are artifical. If you don't
    believe me try some of the great courses in the Ohio and Pennsylvania
    areas. 
    
    Defending American Golf
    
    Bob
    

     re .12:
     
     Perhaps you haven't had the opportunity to play on European courses,
     which would make it difficult to understand how many of them follow
     the lay of the land.  This is especially noticeable in regard to
     greens: at almost any American course, the green is built up, and
     often sloping from the back down to the front, allowing you to hit an
     iron shot that doesn't roll very far (even without spin).   On some
     (maybe many) courses in Europe--including of course the British
     Isles--the greens are not in any way built up: the only difference
     between the green and the fairway is that the grass is more closely
     mown on the former.  
     
     I don't think it's worthwhile to say that one is better or worse
     than the other -- they're just different.
     
     --Don

    (Re .12)
    
    I certainly didn't want to create the impression that I believe
    *all* American courses are of the bulldozer-created type, far from
    it! I wish all Swedish courses were like the ones you mention!
    Neither did I mean to criticise American golf - I was merely 
    (hopefully, humorously) pointing out the differences between 
    resort golf and the somewhat less pretentious European golf course
    philosophy. No offense intended, I assure you!
    
    /PO
    

    
    I've read quite a bit about the history of golf and agree that the
    courses in Europe are quite different.  The originals WERE laid
    out to the cut of the land.  Some of the older courses in the U.S.
    are that way as well, but as mentioned in an earlier reply, some
    courses are definitely 'man-made'.
    
    Has anyone played in the Caribbean?  I played Mahogany Run on
    St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands -- the roughs are SO rough, you
    can lose your ball 3 inches off the fairway.  Between a twosome,
    we lost close to 24 balls playing 18 holes of golf!!  The view,
    though, made up for the expensive afternoon.
    
    Left-handed golf nut
    

                Talking about  rough,  I  played  a  course at a Sheraton 
        hotel on the  west  coast of the Big Island of Hawaii a couple of 
        times.  It's build  right in the middle of a lava field, which is 
        a mess of jagged boulders  all messed up.  When you went into the 
        rough you saw the ball bounce  way  up into the air and disappear 
        into the cracks between the boulders.   A  ball  in the rough was 
        definitely unplayable or a lost ball.  The  fairways  and  greens 
        were in immaculate shape and the view was just amazing.
        
        Anker

    re .5 and .8:
    
    There is another course in Colorado where you can pay for 18 holes
    and play all day. In Rifle there is a lovely short course near the
    Rifle gap that you can play all day on for the price of 18 holes.
    When I was in Junior High School and High School my family use to
    take all day and play 54 holes. What is really special about this
    place is that if you call in advance they would fix breakfast for
    you. This isn't a high class clubby place but it does have that
    special personal touch.
    
    re .7:
    
    In many ways I like the Swedish idea of pre-qualifying golfers before
    they can play. Yes its a real process to go through but then again
    you've got people who really know what's going on when they get
    out on the golf course. I bet there are very few on the course lessons
    that so badly plagues our public courses.
    
    re .13:
    
    Having played several of the original links in Scotland (I shot
    a 81 at Carnoste (sp) the day after the 75 open with 9 penalty shots),
    and many of the courses in the western USA, the description that
    have been given thus far are fairly accurate. Fortunately, many
    of our new course designers (Nicklaus in particular) are returning
    to older, lay of the land, style of courses. Nicklaus' course just
    north of Castle Rock, Colorado and Breckenridge are prime examples.
    
    re other sites:
    
    Another lovely location to play at in Colorado is Arrowhead just
    outside Denver. It's like playing in the Garden of the Gods. Hugh
    sandstone formations surround the course. It's a beautiful course
    with plenty of dog legs that you don't dare cut (golf balls have
    a tendency to bounce off sandstone).

    
    	Hi golf FREAKS! I just found this conference, and I just love
    it, though my golf games are not much to be proud of, I like the
    sport.
    
    	RE:USAFA (Colorado Springs)
    
    	I,too, have played the course many times, and the best way to
    combat the (all day) green fee's, is to walk-on #2 on the "silver"
    course! Now, you must be sly about it, and also hope that if you
    run into a 2some(sp) or 3some(sp), they have a good sence of humor.
    
    	That course (although I have not had the chance to play too
    many other's, in or out of Colorado) is one beautiful course!
    If you should ever get a chance to visit Colo. Springs, and
    bring your clubs, I would suggest getting to play a few anyway
    you can.
    
    Todd

    Hello Fellow Duffers!
    
        I'm new to Digital and just found this conference.  I've been
    playing golf for about six years, off and on, and play to a 19.
    My handicap has been lower (14) but its sooo much fun working.
    
        I live in Norwood, Ma and belong to Sharon Country Club in Sharon,
    Ma. Its the second oldest 9 hole course in the country. Relatively
    short but demanding of the finese. Small greens, narrow fairways,
    and good rough.  The clubhouse is full of Swedes, including my family.
    
    
        If you are in the area and want to play, please, call me
    DTN 277-7238 or E-mail USWAV3::FAGERBERG.
    
    

In reference to "all day" courses, there's one in Tyngsboro, Ma that is (though
I hear it's NOT in particularly good shape).

I've been told that Green Meadows in Hudson, NH is 1 fee all day!  I've been
playing there for awhile, but always ask for a 9 hole ticket, play 9 and go
home! I have squeezed in a couple of extra late in the evening, but apparently
it's not necessary!

-mark

    
    you can also play all day for one fee at Mapplewood in Lunenburg.
    
    	Mike

    The Southeast of the U.S. is full of great courses. Can't get you
    on to Augusta National (The Masters) but here in South Carolina
    there are some beautiful links to attempt to master. Just finished
    playing KENMURE (Ben Wright's course where The Great White Shark
    played in early Sept. '86.) Bent grass greens with undulations,
    etc. and tough pin placements behind large menacing bunkers. Anyone
    wanting to play in this great golf state, please contact me. I'll
    be happy to either direct you to something good or be your partner/
    opponent. 
    
                  Paul Leonard  E-Mail RAVEN1::LEONARD  DTN 354-7460
    
    

    I just returned from a end of season tournament at Winthrop by the
    sea golf course in Rye (just outside Portsmith). This is a very
    challenging short course that puts a premium on accuracy. It is
    an ocean side (ok harbor side) course that will really require to
    not only position the ball but choose the right club off the tee.
    The cost is $18 during the week and $22 on the weekend. On the weekends
    and holidays you must wait until 11:00 to tee off if you are not
    a member.
    
    Roger
    

    I work in the Charlotte, NC office and live in South Carolina. 
    The beaches in South Carolina are loaded with many different courses
    to play.  About 30 courses within a 100 square miles, several of
    which are right beside each other.  The prices range from 9.00 -
    50.00, depending on where and what time of the year and day you
    play.  The fee for all that I have played has been an all day fee
    for the course, but if you ride you will have to pay for the cart
    again.  Some of the better ones I think are, Burning Ridge which
    has 2 courses, Myrtle Beach National, which has 4 different course,
    and one that I haven't played but looks like a nice one, The Dunes.
    The Dunes was designed by Arnold Palmer.  If you would like a list
    of all the courses their with phone numbers, let me know and I will
    work up a list for you.
    
    Chris

    
    
    The golf courses played in Sydney, Australia vary from the very
    best to the very worst, which gives you plenty of varied practice.
    
    Probably the best course I have played is located on the shores
    of Botany Bay, so there is a constant humm of jet aircraft taking
    off from the international airport. This course gets the strong
    SE winds and can change a par 3 from a 8 iron to around a 4 iron.
    Definately a members course your blood color is tested before playing.
    
    My home course probably the worst course I have played, very often
    430mt par fours and some of the hardest par 3's you'll ever play.
    The major hadicap on this course is the flies in summer which last
    all the way through winter. After playing the first 3 holes you're
    at least 2km from the first tee.
    
    In any case we are blessed with lots and lots of courses in Sydney.
    If you have a handicap I'll take you to this home course of mine,
    definately not to be missed.
    
    			contact me @barnier@snov04
    
    see ya
    Luke

    GOLF IN GOD'S COUNTRY (ALABAMA, USA)
    
    Hello from another golfer.  Alabama offers many excellent private
    and public courses.  Will be glad to offer input to anyone coming
    this way.
    
    Regarding architecture, there are all sorts here, from bulldozer
    to links.  Both types can be great.
    
    Regarding financial aspects, I can shed some insight on our club's
    budget, etc.  It is very difficult to operate a privately owned
    public (daily green fee) course in this area.
    
    You folks in Mass have a wonderful course at Stowe Acres.  It is
    the finest public course (the longer of the two 18's) I have played
    outside of Lagoon Park, Montgomery, Al.
                                          
    

    I play to a 1 handycap and plan on visiting South Carolina in April
    of next year.  For the past 4 years I have gone further south to
    the Ponte Vedra area for the Tournament Players Championship.  The
    problem there is that they want an arm and a leg ($85.00 - 110.00
    per round) to play.  When you are playing 2 different courses per
    day it gets kind of expensive, especially with the value of the
    Canadian dollar.
    
    I would appreciate a listing of the courses.
    
    Paul

    There are hundreds of courses in our beautiful state.  If you could be
    more specific about where you will be visiting, I would be happy to
    list some courses for you.  In the meantime, topics 159 and 519 are all
    about courses in the Myrtle Beach area.
    
    Hal

    I'm planning on visiting Germany and will generally be near the
    Nuremburg area. I'm looking for information on places to play and
    costs and haven't found much information so far.
    
    To bring the clubs or not to bring the clubs....
    
    Thanks, Gary

>    I'm planning on visiting Germany and will generally be near the
>    Nuremburg area. I'm looking for information on places to play and
>    costs and haven't found much information so far.

     My understanding that German courses are rare and generally private.
     In addition you generally have to have a minimum handicap to play.
     I meet a fellow Deccie from Germany at Stow once.  He and a friend
     actually joined a course in Scotland to get experience and a handicap.

     Maybe other noters can shed more light.

	Larry

    Golf in Nuremberg
    -----------------
    
    According to my Michelin guide of Germany, there is an 18-hole course
    at Nuremberg-Kraftshof, situated on Kraftshofer Hauptstrasse
    tel: (0911) 30 57 30
    
    Nuremberg Tourist Info office tel: (0911) 23 36 35 and 23 36 32
    
    Cheers
    
    John
    

    (3.31)-------> Thanks for the info John. Gary Peaslee

One and All,

Since I live in the area of the Open I will post the leaders in this note 
each morning until it's over. For our friends in the Far East and Europe
I will try to post the results of players from your part of the world
regardless of their position.

As most of you know a tragic storm cost the life of one spectator and
injured 5 more - one seriously. The storm caused nearly a 3 hour delay so
not all golfers completed their round yesterday. So here is a composite 
of what's done so far. Greg Norman fans can begin weeping now.

The Leaders

   67 - Noaln Henke
   67 - Payne Stewart
   68 - Tom Byrum
   69 - Scott Hoch
   69 - Mark Calcavecchia

The Followers

  70 - Jack Nicklaus
  70 - Craig Parry
  70 - Davis Love III
  70 - Scott Simpson
  70 - Kieth Clearwater
  70 - Jim Gallagher
  70 - Fred Couples
  
Others

  72 - Nick Flado
  72 - Fuzzy Zeoller
  73 - Wayne Grady
  73 - Ian Woosnam
  74 - Nick Price
  75 - Bernhard Langer
  76 - Billy Andrade (snowman on 15 and 16)
  77 - Lee Trevino
  77 - Jumbo Osaki
  77 - Ian Baker-Finch (picked by local writers to win)
  78 - Greg Norman (43 on the front 9)

Did not Finish

  Seve Ballesteros (even with 3 holes to play)
  Sandy Lyle (-1 with 4 to play)
  

    Well, the LPGA is stopping in Ottawa Ont. for the 
    DUMAURIA CLASSIC.This is a first for Ottawa.
    Let's hope the PGA will come through!
    
    THE GMAN