Conference napalm::musclecars

    
    I have never, ever heard of letting the engine simply idle away.
    For one, getting a fresh engine to idle at all is often difficult
    if not impossible.  At higher speeds you should build more cylinder
    pressure, forcing the compression rings against the cylinder wall and
    helping to promote 'break-in'  Also, if you are using a high volume
    (as opposed to high pressure) oil pump, simply letting the engine idle
    may produce lower oil pressures than running at a slightly elevated RPM
    Keep in mind also, that 2000 rpm *HARDLY* constitutes revving the
    engine, so I wouldn't worry to much about following what is the
    generally accepted method of engine break in.  I would strongly advise
    you Dave to solicit other opinions than those given by your 'mentor'
    
    Tom

Dave,

I have never ever heard of breaking in the cam by idleing the engine.  I have 
ALWAYS heard that idling will destroy the cam/lifters.  In fact, I have always
thought that you NEVER let a new engine idle until the cam/lifters have been 
broken in.  You should run it at 2500-3000 rpm (vary it between the two) for
about 20 minutes not 3-5 as you said.  Maybe you have something wierd with
your cam that it only needs 3-5 minutes.  I have never heard of that short of
a time.

While you are breaking in the cam, if you need to shut it down before the 20 
minutes is up (leaks, coolant temp), shit it right off. Do not idle it!  If you
have shut it off, when you restart it, bring it right back up to speed with no
idle time.

What I did with mine is to set the idle screw on the carb sh taht it sould not
drop the idle below about 2300 rpm.  It worked good and I could adjust the idle
screw up or down while breaking in the cam.

When are you going to do it?  I will be out of town this coming weekend and next 
week.  If you are doing it before then or after, let me know and I'll take a ride
to Denver and lend a hand if you'd like.

Let me know,
Mark
dtn 592-4108
home 719-592-4108

    
    
    Re: -1
    
    You are sure welcome to come over and lend a hand but I just did the
    breakin. I varied the RPM between 2200 and 2800 RPM for about 20
    minutes. I sure it all works out OK! The engine runs quite smoothly in
    this RPM range and maintains about 60 PSI on the oil. I am sure glad
    that I bought the mondo radiator that I did because the temp leveled
    out at about 185. Also I tried briefly to see how my 3000 RPM chip
    works (I have it in there only initially) and sure enough it started
    cutting out at 3000 RPM and filled my garage with killer hi-octane
    fumes. Then I stopped it and looked for drips underneath - not a one!
    What a deal!
    
    	What's next. Take it for an easy drive? Will have to wait a while
    for that seeing as how the snow situation is a bit intense.
    
    	Dave

    Yes, the next step is to take it for a ride.  Did you change the oil
    and filter after the 20 minute cam breakin?  You are supposed to.  The
    molly lube used to assemble the engine can plug the oil filter
    sometimes.  I was told to chenge the oil and filter again after 500
    miles.  After that it's normal filter and oil change intervals.
    
    Congratulations!  Fun isn't it?
    
    I'll try to make it up there soon.  I need to go junk yarding up there
    and look for some Vega parts.
    
    Mark
    Mark

    After cam breakin I take it for a drive and vary my speed from about 35
    to 55 MPH for about 30 minutes. (or what ever speed will get you
    1800-2200 RPM in high gear)
    
    Drive at 35 and slowly accelerate to 55 hold it there for a few minutes
    then let off the gas and let it "engine brake" down to 35.
    
    Supposedly this helps the rings to seat as well...works for me.
    /tb/
    

    Dave,
    The reason for 2000-2500 rpm breakin is to assure lifter rotation.
    Flat tappets have a crown on them when new to help them rotate.
    If they don't start rotating on breakin? Bye Bye cam lobe! Common
    with high valve spring retes.
    
    Randy

    
    
    	Randy,
    
    	One thing I noticed about my cam/lifter setup is that in relation
    to the lifters, the cam lobes ride on the very rear edge of them. This
    I suppose is to force them to spin too.
    
    	Re: Oil change?
    
    	I was wondering if I ought to do that now. OK, I will but I'll have
    to warm the engine up again before I do it. Now all I need is for the
    snow to go away so I can go for a drive...
    
    	Dave

    Yeah Dave.Thats right! 
    
    In regard to oil changes, eveybody has their own preferences.
    
    I like to change it after the breakin, then after 50 miles" most
    of which I accel and decel a lot in gear. The decel helps draw
    oil through tight valve guides and bottom edges of the comp rings.
    
    Then 250, 500, 1000 oil changes Dave.
    
    Gotta go!
    
    re

    In addition to the 30 minutes at 2000+ rpm, I've been told to use GM
    Engine Oil Supplement, 1 pint, added to the oil, initially.  Then after
    that time, change the oil and filter.
    Matt

    
    
          For general information....
    
          The bottoms of flat tappets are usually ground on a 32" radius.
    Also the centerline of a cam lobe never ends up dead centre in the
    lifter bore. It is always offset forward or rearward in the block in
    relation to the lifter bore. Watch those pushrods spin while the engine
    is running with the valve covers off! Roller lifters are another
    matter.   You can even swap a cam and use the old lifters.
    
    -john

    According to the instructions that came with my RHS engine, the idea
    behind varying the rpm and keeping it high is to make certain that the
    cam lobes all get lubricated. The cam bearings are pressure fed but the
    cam lobes are splash fed. Keeping the revs up keeps lots of oil flying
    around in there. Varying the rpm changes the splash to make sure that
    everything gets wet.
    
    Harry
    

    
    The instructions that came with a camshaft I recently installed 
    recommended changing the oil and filter immediately after the 20 minute
    break-in period.  The reason given was to get rid of the assembly lube, 
    which degrades the lubricating qualities of the oil and tends to clog the 
    oil filter. 
    
    Tom

    RE:- Plus metal shavings that comes from the intial tight clearances
    
    Dave'
    

    Hi Dave,
    
    It's been about two weeks now.... Is the snow gone?
    
    We're all on the edge of our seats waiting to hear about
    the test run.
    
    A new musclecar is born!
    
    (:^D) Randy

re .13

I hope that there are no metal shavings after the initial cam breakin.  I would
think metal shavings to be a very bad sign.  

Mark

    I just finished building a 401 nailhead motor for my 66 Skylark. I
    have a Grand Sport under my Skylark skin. The only things left are
    tranny lines, shortened drive shaft and minor brake work. I have put
    tons of dough into this motor. I had it bored out 30 over, all new
    stock parts, headers etc. I have already ran the engine for 25-30
    minutes to break the cam in, changed the oil and its now got about
    a hour on the engine. I installed full gauges in the car so I can see
    how the engine temp and oil pressure is doing. The car needs a road
    test as soon as I finish up with the driveshaft etc.. I am having a few
    problems, the first is when I run the engine for 10 minutes or so
    sitting in the driveway the temp gauge moves slowly from 180 to 210 or
    so before I shut it down, I added the top half of the fan shroud and it
    made a difference, I think this one can be fixed by intalling a full
    shroud, as soon as I can find one to fit. If the car was moving it
    wouldn't get a chance to get this hot.. The other problem that has me 
    worried is the heads. I had the heads done at the machine shop and I
    didn't think twice about it at first, but now I remember that when
    these heads were resurfaced they were not resurfaced flat and smooth,
    but had a sort of sworl type of pattern to it, this created small
    grooves which is now causing me trouble. When the engine is warmed up I
    can see antifreeze bubbling slowly out of the top of the head. This
    engine has a water cross over pipe and a lifter galley pan so the
    intake sits up on top of the heads. I know the water is not getting
    into the oil, I am always checking for foaming or runny oil, so far it
    looks O.K... I can see the gasket between the engine and the head, the 
    heads are torqued to 80 lbs, which is the max torque for these heads.
    The gaskets that were used were felpro perma-torque sandwich type.. It
    looks like the leak is slowing down and is external. Should I take the
    heads off and have them remilled, or wait it out and watch the oil, so
    far the oil pressure has remained steady at 40.. What should I do..???
    
    I hate to remove the heads, but I don't want to lose the motor either.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian

What do you mean by "the top of the head"?

Is it leaking from the interface between the head and the block, the head and
the intake manifold, or from around the cylinder head bolts themselves?
Matt

    
        Also find out if the heads were broached when they were rebuilt
    and/or machined. Buick and Oldsmobile heads should never be broached in
    that they will bend and end up having more material removed from their
    ends and this is where they usually leak anti-freeze. If this is
    difficult to grasp...get the info first then call me. 592-5427
    
    -john

If it is leaking from the head/block mating area, try retorquing the heads.  My
327 did this at first until I retorqued (with a composition head gasket).  I had 
no seepage at all when I switched to a steel shim head gasket.

If it is leaking from a head bolt, did you use sealer on the head bolts when 
you put the heads on?  You should have used some kind of sealer (i.e. Permatex
Aviation Form-a-gasket) on the head bolt threads.

Mark

    RE:17
    
    This engine does not pass antifreeze thru the intake manifold, its uses
    and separate water crossover pipe. The antifreeze it not leaking into
    the cylinders or into the oil. You can see some leakage between the
    head and the block at the top front corners of each head. This head
    has a water passages in all four corners for each head only the top
    front corners are leaking slightly.
    
    Re:18
    
    What does broached mean? If they were broached are they junk now ? I
    spent 350 bucks to have them rebuilt. The felpro gaskets are much
    thicker sandwich 3 piece type gaskets, the originals are usually a lot
    thinner one piece steel. Can I get away with having the heads resufaced
    and use the thicker type gasket ? Or should I grap a set of 425 heads
    from my local junky..?
    
    Thanks for the input, I think i'll be stopping by the machine shop for
    a little talk...
    
    Brian

Yank the heads off and replace the head gaskets.  Spray copper coat on them
before you install the gaskets.  I've had numerous Fel-Pro no-retorque
gaskets leak on me and have solved the problems by replacing them with
sprayed gaskets.  Most of the time this occurs with heads that haven't been 
re-surfaced but poor quality resurfacing will cause coolant leaks, too.   

If you didn't wash the heads out before you put them on you may have gotten 
a chunk of rust or scale on the gasket surface when you inverted the head 
to set it on the block.  This is pretty common....crap falling out of the 
coolant passages when you install heads.  I spray shaving cream into the 
water passages before I install cylinder heads and I don't have that 
problem.  Once burned, twice shy.  It happened to me when I did a 60,000 
mile valve job and combustion chamber cc'ing on my GTX back in '69.  I 
thought I had the head clean but when I pulled the head back off, there was 
the chunk of rust on the head gasket.  New gasket, can of copper coat and a 
can of shaving cream.  The heads are still on the motor to this day and 
don't leak.  That was the first time I used shaving cream.

BTW, the grinding marks are normal.  The sign of a "good" grinding job is
traces of grinding marks running in the opposite direction.  i.e. the
"witness" marks from the back side of the wheel as it passes over the
already-cut head surface.  This tells you that the cutter isn't tilted
slightly and cutting a convex groove across the head.  When the wheel is 
tilted,the head gasket will leak between cylinders because this is where the 
worst of the depression exists.  Seeing the witness marks tells you that the 
head is perfectly flat.

The grinding marks on your head are probably not your problem (water leak). 
 The problem is most likely sloppy workmanship that can probably be covered 
up with a bit of gasket cement (top paragraph).  The head probably isn't 
absolutely flat.  The problem could also be that the block isn't absolutely 
flat either.

...and, yes, I understood what you meant by the top of the head.  Top 
meaning where the head bolts to the block but under the intake manifold as 
opposed to under the exhaust manifold (bottom).

    Where can I find this Copper Coat spray ? Iv'e checked ADAP, NAPA etc..
    Can't find it, I'm going to try the Local Speed Shop (P.V. Speed) in
    Malden, Ma... Maybe I'll get lucky. If I go to the trouble of taking
    the Heads off, I think that I'll have them checked for straightness and
    then Resurfaced (smooth) no ridges.. I can get the one piece (hi
    compression) steel gaskets, or the thicker Felpro Perma tourque. I like
    the thicker gaskets because I think that because they are thicker and
    compress more that they might seal better.. which one is better ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    
    Brian

    I use the steel shim gaskets in my 327 and they seal fine.  I had the
    FelPro composition gaskets on it before and they seeped slightly until
    I retorqued them.
    
    The steel gasket will bump your compression aproximately half a point. 
    It you use the steel type, coat them with aluminum or silver paint
    that contains aluminum powder.  Spray each gasket, on both sides, with
    3 thin coats of the paint and install while the paint is still tacky.
    A local engine builder told me this method and it worked great.  The
    gaskets do not seep at all.  For paint, I used Plasti-Kote High
    Perfromance No. 345 silver.
    
    Mark

>    Where can I find this Copper Coat spray ? Iv'e checked ADAP, NAPA etc..
>    Can't find it, I'm going to try the Local Speed Shop (P.V. Speed) in
>    Malden, Ma... Maybe I'll get lucky. If I go to the trouble of taking


You couldn't find it in a NAPA store??????????????

You'd better change NAPA stores.  I have three or four cans of NAPA/Permatex 
spray Copper Coat.  I got one at Merrimack Valley Auto Parts, another at 
Auto Machine in Maynard and a third at the NAPA store on route 110 in 
Westford.  Even the NAPA store in Ayer has it.

I even remember seeing it at the ADAP store in Nashua a week and a half ago
.

Come to think of it, I think the parts store across from Cumberland Farms 
in Ayer has it too.