Conference napalm::musclecars

    Mark,
       I've been following your progress in this notes file and there
    is only one thing to say.............
    
    
          CONGRATULATIONS
    
    Now you have to let us know what it'll do at the strip.
    
                                                Rich

I picked up a cowl indiction fiberglass hood and I need to know what is a good
way to attach it to the car.  I may be able to use the stock hinges but will at
least need a method of attachment other than the stock latch.

I'd really like to use something other than hood pins.  I thought that maybe
Dzus fasterners would do the trick but the longest length I have been able to 
find them in is .550".  The hood is about 3/4" thick all around the perimiter
due to the reinforcement located there.

Anybody have ideas on how to accomplish this?

Thanks,
Mark

    
    I also have decided to biuld a V8 vega . I have a few questions 
    Your help and answers may be a deciding factor.The first is 
    I would like to build a full chassis with narrowed rear I guess
    sort of like a pro street type .Ihave never done this before.
    Where should I go to purchase a chasis kit ,does it come with 
    installation instructions .The car will have a 396 motor from a
    67 chevelle  will the kit come with a motor mount set up or will
    I have to fabricate .I do have welding experiance. I already contacted
    lindblad chassis and for the expence I would like to try to do it
    myself.I guess it all is contingent upon a vendor who sells a frame kit
    with complete installation instructions as with out them I would be
    rendered clueless as never having done this before.It would be ashame
    to HACK a nice body for lack of direction.ANY SUGGESTIONS would be
    Greatly appreciated.thanks in advance.
          

I did not use a chassis kit for my Vega so I can't help out in that area.  Check
the enthusiast magazines for chassis shops and give them a call.  One that comes
to mind is Chassis Engineering. They do sell kits, but they are not inexpensive.

For mine, I just used the mounts that came with my Don Hardy kit.  Motion, out 
New York, sells a BB/Vega kit.  I have the Don Hardy and Motion Catalogs.

Mark

    Well, it just keeps getting worse!  Not only does this bugger overheat
    within about 10 minutes but now I can't get my emissions sticker.  
    
    The state insists that I put an air injection system (smog pump) on the
    Vega because the stock 4 cylinder had one on it.  Mucho fabrication and
    $$$ to do this.  There is a place in town that does emissions system
    fabrication to meet state specs.  They want $375 to do the
    installation.
    
    For that amount of money, I could buy an earlier year Vega and swap all
    my parts into it to get around the emission laws.  Or, perhaps pick up
    an older Nova or something and swap my drivetrain into it.  
    
    What a bummer.  I have some thinking to do on this one.  I didn't think
    that I needed the air system because the 4 banger did not have one on
    it when I pulled it out.  It must have been removed after the previous
    owner got his sticker or he scammed a stciker.
    
    Bottom line is, anyone out there considering engine swaps or engine
    changes to a late model car, THOROUGHLY check out your states emission
    control laws.
    
    Mark

    What state are you in?  What year is the Vega?

re .6

I'm located in Colorado which from what I can find out has the toughest 
emissions program this side of California.  

In Colorado, All cars mfgd. after 1974 have to have the air system, catalytic 
converter(s), fuel filler restrictor,and feedback/computer/electonic system 
intact if so equiped from the factory.  All cars (except for cars with 
collector plated (>25 yrs. old)) must also pass a tailpipe emissions test.

My car, the Vega, is a 1977 model.

    
    
    	Wow, this sounds so much like my Landcruiser project, it isn't
    funny! I HAD the overheat and the emissions problems you speak of. I,
    too, am in Colorado. Let me tell you how I solved them. 
    
    	Situation:
    
    		'78 Toyota Landcruiser with standard 6 cyl.
    
    		I put in a Chevy 400 SB.
    
    	Emissions:
    
    		I did this while living in Washington. Before moving here,
    I called an emission shop in Colorado and found what they wanted to
    see; Cats, EGR and AIR. My truck has a sticker in it saying
    "Non-Catalyist" that problem solved. The feller said EGR wasn't
    required. Two down. As for the AIR, I did need it. I went to a wrecking
    yard and got the entire system and put it on. 
    	
    		Problem solved; I passed emmisions.
    
    	Heat:
    
    		This engine puts out ALOT of heat, at least twice the
    original engine. This took me the better part of two yoers to solve but
    now I feel pretty confident that I've got il licked. Here's what I did:
    
    	1) Re-cored the radiator with a 12 FPI 4 row core - over twice the 
    	   original surface area. Not good enough.
    
    	2) Put on a huge shroud of my making to enclose the fan. Better
    
    	3) Replaced the fan with a 19" 6 blade stainless steel flex fan;
    	   BOLTED to the water pump, non of this thermostatic clutch stuff.
           Better.
    
    	4) And then a trick I heard from another guy who discovered this
           in his race car; pull the fan half out of the shroud, moving it
           towards the engine by using a shorter fan extender. Much better!
    
    	The only time I get a little hot now is in stop-and-go traffic when
    its above 90 degrees outside. I've had this setup now for 2 years and
    its still going strong.
    
    	Dave

Dave,

Thanks for all the info!

I have pretty much decided to find another Vega that is 74 or older so that I
do not have to run any cats or other smog junk.  Plus I would get the added 
bonus of having looser emissions specs to deal with.  This will also allow me
to run more cam (more horsepower ;-) ) and still be able to pass emissions.
I have began the search for a suitable body amd have located some posible
candidates up in Denver.

On to the cooling problem.  I am in the process of installing a 160 deg. 
thermostat and a fan with bigger blades so that it will move more air.  The
hassle with this is that I have to remove the water pump to get the fan on.
It's real tight for space in there.  Next I will build or find in th JY a
fan shoroud that will work for this application.  I will check the FPI on my
radiator core.  I do not think that it is anything special.  I can not move
the fan back any more as it is bolted to the water pump now and clears the 
radiator by 1 inch.

If this stuff doesn't cure the problem, next will be a Flow Cooler water pump
and 1 or 2 electric fans.

BTW, how hot is too hot?  I have my temp sensor mounted in the left head and
from what I can tell, locating it there caused the temp. to read about 10 deg.
higher than locating it in the intake manifold or water pump.  Right now, I 
shut it down when the temp gets to 230-235 deg.

Mark

    
         Hey!.....A piece of advice. Don't take apart the whole damn car
    just to get an earlier model that don't require the emissions stuff.
    Simply *BUY* a set of "numbers" from the older car. Then it goes to the
    crusher.......Done this twice already.  Think about it.
    
    -john

I had thought about doing this exact thing.  Buy a 74 Vega and swap the id 
id plates.  They're only held on by 2 rivits.  I'd have a clear title from 
the 74 for registrarion purposes and I could junk the 77.  It sounds illegal
to me but I don't know what the laws are.  It'd sure save me a couple hundred
hours.

Mark

What you guys are sugesting is illegal...

            
    
    	Re: .9
    
    	A few more comments:
    
    	1) Flow cooler water pump; I did put one on, forgot to tell you. It
    didn't do anything seeing as how the pump I pulled off had a closed
    impeller too.
    
    	2) Electric fans; All the good I was ever able to get out of my
    electric fan phase I went through was cooler in-town temperatures. I
    used a Flex-a-lite Black Magic (supposedly the biggest fan $$ can buy).
    It worked great in the city as I said but the engine would *overheat*
    on the hiway. Close as I could figure out is that the fan, even when
    on, was restricting the ram-air flow thru the radiator. I took it off
    and it's for sale if you want to try it. In fact I should put and ad
    for it in the "For Sale" section.
    
    	3) How hot is too hot? Boiling! Anything less than that and the
    engine is just fine. Problem is that one generally likes to keep a bit
    below boiling so there is some room for the temperature to grow. With a
    15 pound cap, boiling is about 255 degrees. But don't see how close you
    can get. At boiling, the temperature of the engine spikes and that's
    when bearings melt and other nasty things like that happen.
    
    	Dave

    
    
        Heat is not bad....Matter of fact heat is good. That is what a
    internal combustion engine runs on. The more useable heat you can
    extract from fuel, the more power, and better economy and LESS
    emissions. GM has engines currently in test phase (liquid cooled)
    with engine coolant temperatures approaching 380 degrees F.
    Oil temps run in the 400 degree range. No improved engine bearings
    are needed. The biggest problems are keeping it all pressurized and
    keeping that heat out of the passenger compartment. GM says this 
    technology is comming real soon.
    
    -john

For any of you who are curious about what ever happened to my 77 V-8 Vega, it
is now torn down and the body is waiting to be hauled away.

I have purchased a 72 Vega and will be putting all my "good" parts on it.  The
project will begin/resume as soon as the seller of the 72 provides me with the
title.

Mark

    	About this cooling problem, a few other things, if you haven't
    	already tried them. 
    
    		Oil cooler     = 10 to 20 degrees sometimes
    	
    		Trans cooler   = 10 to 20 degrees sometimes
    
    		cooling vents  = 30 to 40 degrees almost all of the 
    						time
    
    		water vaper    = 30 to 40 degrees almost all of the time
    		   injection
    
    	there are more but I can't think of them right now.
    
    		the cooling vents can be duct from the front of the
    	car or from just infront of the front tires. You have a bigger
    	engine in a smaller comparment, even tho it is water cooled it 
    	still needs to breath. maybe even a bigger oil pan, for more oil.
    
    		small things like remote mounted oil filter might help.
    
    		Jeff

    
    The small things do make a difference.  Make sure you aren't running
    the motor too lean, or the ignition too far retarded (or advanced to
    the point of serious preignition) These things will all cause a hot
    running condition.
    
    Best of luck with your `72!
    
    Tom

When I last had the morot running, it was anything but lean.  The timing is
set at 12 deg.

Well I have begun the task of putting together the 72.  I have been collecting
parts for the last month.  The rear end goes in to the chassis shop Monday to
be narrowed to fit the Vega.  Right now, I am in the process of converting the
power steering to manual and getting the wiring sorted out.

It's a little hard to get motivated after having just done this a year ago but
it'll get done.

Mark

We tried installing the transmission last night.  No go.  The transmission 
tunnel needs a bit of clearancing (after much clearancing already).  There
is not near the room in the early transmission tunnels as there is in the 
later models.  Just a minor set back though.  I just need to use a bigger 
hammer to adjust the sheet metal.  :-)

The engine fits in the 72 just like it fit in the 77 and the headers, even
with the Thermo-Tec wrap, appear that they'll fit fine.

Good thing that I picked a nice easy project.  :-)

Mark

    Mark, If a Vega is unibody and your raising the tunnel,
    aren't you "pincushioning" the center? And the inboard
    ends of the sub-frames? Or at least biasing them that way?
    Perhaps you could just cut it out and make an alum. tunnel.
    
    Good luck!
    Randy.
     

Randy,

What do you mean by "pincushioning" the center and subframe ends?  I figured that
beating on it would just stretch the metal in the effected area.  It doesn't work
that way?

About subframe connectors.  I can get them done down at the local chassis shop 
for $200.  It's part of my plan to drive it down there when I get it running and
get some subframe connectors welded in.

Mark

    Yeah Mark,
    
    This my be oversimplification, and I'm not sure a unibody 
    will do this but I wouldn't take any chances if it were mine.
    
    Envision an upside down steel legged chair, bolt a sheet of
    steel across the bottom of all the legs, then start hammering 
    in the center. The legs"subframe ends" are going to get pressured
    to move inward, as they really have no support 'cept the sheet-
    metal you're beating on. The sides between the legs will pull 
    inward too "pin cushioning".
    
    Not to worry if you're just doing small areas "bolt clearance,etc"
    I done that myself, but it sounded as you were going whole hog!
    In which subframe connectors should go in first.
    
    And then I'd use the heat then beat method.
    
    Randy
    

I finally got the engine and tranny in the Vega.  The driveshaft is shortened 
and in. The tranny xmember is modified and in.  All that is left is alot of 
details and getting the wiring harness squared away (yech).  I should be able
to fire it up and go for a spin sometime around New Years.

Mark

I finally fired the Vega yesterday.  I hit the starter and it fired immediately.
Plenty of oil pressure and no leaks (so far).  I rigged up some wiring and a
battery.  Now all I have to do is mount the battery, and redo part of the engine
compartment wiring harness and I'll be able to take it on it's maiden voyage.

That Thermo-Tec wrap is neat stuff!  After running the engine for 15 or 20 
minutes, I shut it down and was able to grab a header tube without burning 
myself.  It was just warm.  It looks like this stuff will turn out to be a 
good investment.

Mark

    
    
    	Congrats! I know how it feels to get the ol' project going. Why not
    drive the Vega up to my neck of the woods? We'll go for a drag...
    

Lets see, if I borrow some plates, dummy up a smog sticker, and ignore the 
open headers I might be able to make the drive.

re. dragging

How much of a head start do I get?  I only have a teany, tiny 327, not a fire
breathing 455.  :-)

It gets it's exhaust system tomorrow...

After building 2 different V-8 Vegas over the past 18 months, I finally have one
that passed the smog test, is registered, and has plates on it.  It easily passed
the smog test.  It must need more cam.  ;-)

I sure do things the hard way sometimes.

Mark

    
    Congratulations Mark, on finishing your project and actualy reaching
    your goal. Many people (and a few of us ;-) ) never are able to finish
    one project, let alone two. Keep us informed on how the car is to live
    with as a driver.
    
    Good Job :)
    
    Don
    

Since the Vega will be going faster as time passes.  I thought that I'd go ahead
and put a roll cage in it.  In talking to a chassis shop, it appears that having 
one installed would set me back about $400.

In looking in the Summit (or Jegs) catalog, they sell a Competition Engineering
Vega/Monza weld in roll cage for something like $160.  Has anyone installed a 
ready built cage in their vehicle?

I have a set of torches.  Would it be as simple as figuring out how to weld and
then welding it in place?  It sounds too easy (not that good welding comes 
natural).

Thanks,
Mark

    Mark, you'll need more than a torch to install bars. They should be TIG
    welded or MIG welded. Also don't torch cut them, cut them with a saw.
    
    Welding them to to floor..... Do you have the conector bars in your 
    Vaga? That's what they should be welded to. Or bolt them thru the floor 
    as recommended in the rule book. (i would rather weld them myself)
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

Jim,

No, I don't have any type of subframe connectors in yet.  Maybe I should just 
save my money and let an "expert" do it.

I figured that it'd be more difficult than just melting metal until they stay
put.  :)

Too bad that I don't know anyone out here that has a MIG/TIG setup.

Thanks,
Mark

    Mark,
    
    I just rented a mig when I put my subframe connectors in.
    
    As I recall, it was $25 plus the wire/gas I used, $5. I found
    it quite easy to use, much easier than arc or torch welding.
    Looks like I'll be needing to rent one again soon too.
    
    Randy

    re: .29,
    
    Mark,
    
      If you can get the guy that quoted you $400 to install a cage
    to put the quote in writing, save your money for awhile, and have him
    do it...  Even if you have to supply the cage kit plus the $400, that is 
    a good price for all the labor that is involved.
    
      There is much more involved in installing a cage than just the
    welding...  The pipes will need to be fitted properly wherever there is
    a butt joint (T-joint?)  My brother found this to be quite time
    consuming.  I've seen tools advertised to make this a snap, but they
    aren't cheap.  My brother paid a guy to install his second cage
    (another car), and didn't even complain about the price... :-)
    
      Also,  check the rule book to see if Mig welding is acceptable.  
    
    FWIW,
    
    Tom
    

For those of you who have lived all these years wanting to know how much a V-8
Vega weighs, I have the answer.  With half of a tank of gas my 72 weighs in at
2625 pounds (driver weight not included). 

Mark 

If any of you folks ever have the opportunity to build your own engine, or have 
one built, and there is a dyno handy you may want to spend the extra bucks for 
some dyno runs.  It is the best/neatest way to do tuning and you find out what 
kind of horsepower and torque your engine REALLY makes.  Also you know at what
rpm the power is made at.

I pulled the 331 (327 +.030) out of the Vega to swap in a 3000 stall converter.
I then decided that as long as the engine was out, I might as well pull the 
Weiand dual-plane intake off and replace it with a Weiand single-plane intake.
Next, you know what?  As long as I have the intake off, I might as well have 
some port matching and bowl work done on the heads.  Hmm, I might as well port 
match the intake and do some blending work in there too.  You say that a steel
shim head gasket is worth .5 point of comression.  Ok, give me one of those too.

So, I put all this back together and decided that I'd go ahead and slap it on
the dyno to see just what it really do.  We optimized the timing, got the Holley
750 to work much better than it did.  The carb still really needs some more 
optimization but, the dyno time expended the last of the budget.  The good thing
is that I know exactly what needs to be done to the carb to make it perfect.

If you have read this far, you probably want to know just what the numbers were.
I now have a 327 that idles smooth at 1000 rpm that with it's 10.5+ CR demands
premium leaded fuel.  I realistically figured that with the latest round of 
modifications that I'd pull 365ish horsepower and 375ish lb/ft of torque.  I was 
very wrong!  

How does 403.5 hp @5500 and 403.6 lb/ft @4250 sound?  With a "good" carb that
was not jetted properly for this engine, we pulled 411.4 hp @5250 and 437.2 lb/ft
@4500.  Better than I hoped for and not too bad for the first engine that I'd 
ever built.

I might just give my dad a good run for his money when he visits me in April in
his 93 Corvette LT1 Coupe.  :-)

  

Having my  #1 son in that Vortech Saleen, I know *exactly* how your dad is
gonna feel. :-)

Those are damned impressive numbers.

Bruce 

Pardon me...

Can you explain what "dyno" is??

Thanks,
Dave.

    I'm curious Mr. Forbes. what kind of longevity can you expect out of
    that mill pushing that much hp? I'm interested cause I've got a 325 hp
    327 in my 62 chebbie p/u. I'd like to go for more hp and was thimking 
    of going for more cubes sometime this summer if the $$$'s allow.
    What does you're parts list look like??  You're right though, it's not
    your fathers chevy vega 8).
    Gary
     

re .37

Dyno is short for dynomometer.  It is a device used for measuring horsepower and
torque.  The engine is mounted on a stand and connected to the dyno which 
basically uses the engine being tested to drive a killer water pump.  There are
sensors mounted on the engine and on the dyno itself which take various 
measurements.  The sample rate is 250 per nn revolutions and this data is fed 
into a computer which calculates hp, torque, fuel/air per hour, scfm, VE, and 
a host of other data.

If someone on Colorado Springs wants to see what the data output from a dyno run
looks like, stop by the office and I'll show you one.

re .38

As for longevity, it should last a long time (he said).  It's a small journal
327 with a forged steel crank.  The rods are resized stock with ARP moly rod
bolts.  The pistons are forged TRW flattops with Sealed Power rings.  Bearings
are Michigan 77.  The heads are thick casting 1967 vintage "462" castings with 
Manley stainless steel valves (2.065/1.60) and Erson springs.  The rest of the 
valvetrain consists of 3/8" (BB Chevy size) moly pushrods, Comp Cams Magnum 
roller tipped rockers, and an Erson double row timing chain with steel gears.
The oil is supplied by a Melling high volume pump.

    Yeow!! You mean the dreaded Vega is even quicker??? I can't wait to get
    my ride this summer!!!! :-) That thing was incredible when we took it
    for a spin last August!
    
    Harry
    

    
        Also don't forget folks that Mark's engine is making that level of
    power up here at 6200' of elevation.....meaning that he is seriously
    down on horsepower by a factor of 18-20% as opposed to sea level.
    Its more amazing than you think!  Hey Mark! My headsfor the V-MAX       
    just returned via UPS from california....I had them extrude honed
    with a written guarantee of 30+ MORE  rear wheel horsepower! Can't wait to
    get home and start wrenching.
    
    -john

    Unfortunately John my 327 does not make 400+ horsepower at this 
    altitude.  I wish that it did!  The numbers that I put in were the 
    standard corrected numbers that the SuperFlow dyno spat out.  We 
    fiddled with it some more and I now have the engine back home.  
    
    I ended up with:
    
    Corrected for sealevel  418 hp @5500  431 lb-ft torque @4250
    Actual @6200 ft elev.   305 hp @5500  320 lb-ft torque @4250
    
    As can be seen, altitude really takes it's toll!  At least I gain
    some of it back at the dragstrip which is "only" at 4500 feet or so.
    
    Mark

    Mark, that's why god invented blowers. :-) If you ain't at sea level,
    you can make your own (and then some!!!).
    
    Harry
    

Harry,

Unfortunately, with 10.5+ compression, I could only run about 2 pounds of
boost.  :-)

Mark

    Mark, you only need enough to put you back at 'sea level' (or perhaps a
    little more...) ;-)
    
    Harry
    

    UHHH OHHH!
    
    Is it just me? Or can everybody here the gears grinding
    in Marks head...
    
    (|^) Cheers Mark!
    Randy

Well, the strip in Pueblo finally opened and a friend and I made the trip down
there to see what the cars would do.  It was the first day of operation and they
had just gotten the new Compulink II system up and running the night before.  
The weather gods smiled upon and gave us some nice barometer readings, dry air, 
and temperatures around 80 degrees.

I signned the appropriate papers and while I was up in the tower what the track 
altitude was.  He informed me that the track altitude is 4900 ft. which is 400 ft 
higher than I thought (time to tweek the Quarter Jr. data).  

I took the Vega over to be tech inspected (it's first) and escaped relatively
unscathed.  I built the car and never thought to have the NHRA rulebook by my 
side at the time.  A couple of minor items were found that I need to correct.

I went to the track really wanting a 13 second 100 mph timeslip.  I pull up
to the burnout box and do a dry burnout (for all the good that it will do a 
TA radial).  Hmm, it doesn't hook up quite as good as it used to.  I pull up to
the line and bring the rpm up to abou 1200 and stomp it on the green.  Late on 
the 1-2 shift at 6300 rpm.  Oh well.  I keep looking for my buddy in his 406 SBC 
powered Datuson 260Z.  As I cross the finish line I see him in my rearview 
mirror.  Cool, I blew him onto the weeds!  The first run of the year turned out 
to be a 14.370 @ 97.19.

I mads some teeeks and made some more runs.  My best run of the day was a 14.062
with its attending best short time of 2.21.  We let the cars cool down while we 
ate lunch and figured that we'd have time for one more run before heading home.
Well, that run was a good one for me.  I met one of my goals.  I stopped by the
timing shack, picked up my slip, and a big grin broke out across my face.  It 
read 100.11 mph.  My first 100 mph timeslip.  What a feeling!

I do need slicks now though...

A little update on the Vega project...

After several years, the Vega finally has a nice new shiny paint job.  During
the bodywork process, I had all of the emblem holes filled in, bumper bolts
shaved, and the bumpers painted body color.  The new color is Light Competition
Blue and the paintwork was done in a basecoat/clearcoat.

It goes in Monday or Tuesday to get the carpet work done and I'll be taking all
the brightwork down to get powder coated next week too.  Now to get busy and do
*lots* of reassembly and detailing work.

Mark