Conference napalm::musclecars

    With a "shift kit" installed...and maybe some other work...automatics
    turn fine ET's. Ask Don Lind about it...he's pulled a 13.9x in his
    auto 'vette.
    
    I suspect that your going to have so many traction problems that what
    losses you will be encountering with the TH400 will be somewhere in the
    smoke! :-)
    
    Your right about the costs/work of converting what you have to be able
    to use the standard...it's probably a lot more work/cost than it's worth.
    
    /tb/ (wish I had a 455!)

    
    
    	For starters, I was going to instal the kit found on page 88 of the
    latest Summit catalog. I'm going to have to call them to find out but I
    wonder what would be left to do in order to have the tranny like a full
    remanufactured TCI tranny like is found on the same page. Obviously,
    I'd get a deep pan and shield too.
    
    	Yea, I think I'll go with the TH400. Cheaper and better. But not
    original. Neither is the 455. Oh well, one has to make sacrifices to
    make smoke!
    
    	I'll have to choose a torque converter too. Either a Dominator or
    Holeshot ought to do... None of this 4500RPM stall speed stuff; I want
    to be able to drive it around too!
    
    	Dave

    Dave you will find the hole shot quite interesting it's just what the
    name applies.I have one on my 454 chevy 400 turbo its different.
                                         Dave

    
    
    	What would the drivability of a holeshot be? In my brother's '67,
    you couldn't accelerate gracefully at all from a stop without burning
    rubber. I'd like to have a converter that permits conservative driving
    but also has performance capability.
    
    	Additionally, the kit that I mentioned in .1 comes with extra
    clutch plates to "make shifting harder" . How many extra plates should
    one put in to have firm shifts but not so hard that the tires will
    chirp and things fall apart after a while?
    
    	I'm going to have to go rent an engine crane soon so that I can
    pull the 455 and TH400 out of the 20' boat that is occupying a
    significant portion of my garage so I can free up some space and have
    some room to work! (It's nice having a 1000' shop...)
    
    	Dave

    I don't think that the extra plates will make much difference in
    the shift firmness. They just give more 'swept area' of clutch material
    to share the load. Shift firmness is a function of line pressure, and
    can be easily adjusted with a shift kit.
    
    I'm interested in the answer to the question about the torque
    converter. How much stall can you run before it gets 'grabby'? I'd like
    something just a bit looser in the ThunderTruck(tm), but not so loose
    that I can't get smooth starts on loose surfaces. It seems to me that
    anything up to the 2200-2500 rpm range shouldn't be too bad, but I'd
    like to hear about some real world experiences out there!
    
    Harry
    

    Hi All,
    
         Maybe I can help you with some of the questions.  First I have
    an 82 firebird that I built up last year.  To give you some idea of
    what I'm talking about I'll give you a quick rundown of what I put in.
    
              went from a 305 to a 350
              060 overbore
              400 crank
              9.5-1 pistons
              202 heads
              performer intake
              holley 600 vaccuum secondarys
              middle of the road cam 
              
         What you are probably most interested in is the tranny and
    converter?
    
              stock rear end
              TH350 with a stage 2 shift kit
              B&M holeshot    (I think it was in the 2200 or 2300 range)
                               im not sure but I can look for you
    
              
    
         A few things I can tell you from personal expereince is that the
    car is very well behaved...The tires will not break away from you
    unless you really want them to.  There is a real fine line between the
    two but when you drive the car every day to work (like I do) its not
    hard to get used to.  Plus when you want the power Its there for you.
    
                       I hope this helps you out a bit
    
                       Dave Dewyngaert
    
    P.S.  What a pain it was to get that TH350 into my car (it had to have
          the short shaft and there was an extra braket kit that I had to
          buy cost was about $175.00 for the braket)

I have a GER converter in the Vega that is advertised as being 2400-2800 stall
depending upon application.  So far (30 miles), it seems very well behaved and
doesn't seem to slip excessively.

I am getting (finally) an exhaust system put on the Vega Friday and plan on 
driving it all weekend to start breaking the engine in.  Once I ges some more 
miles on it, I can let you know how the converter is working.  BTW, the tranny
is a TH-350 with a Fairbanks Stage 2 kit in it.

Mark

    Maybe I can help explain on the converters....
                 (this is how it was explained to me)
        Most stock converters are of the 1500 - 1800 range. So with a 
    stock cam, under acceleration, the torque of the engine is applied
    through the converter to the transmission at that RPM range.
    I've run some pretty radical cams in my pontiacs and have used
    different stalls. The last cam I ran wasn't that radical (292/480)
    but still needed a 2500 stall. I built the motor and transmission with
    shift kit and used the stock converter (i forgot to budget for it).
    When in gear and foot on the brake the motor would die. I had to run
    the car with the idle WAY up for about a month. One thing I loved about
    it was the take off. So, I installed the 2500 stall. It worked! Under
    extreme acceleration the converter would grab and work perfectly. Under
    normal acceleration taking off is like you have a manual with a
    slipping clutch. It does just what it's called... STALL ... until you
    get to the specified RPM. I don't really care for that aspect of the
    converter. It really takes some getting used to. Like I said, the most
    recent cam is the smallest I've used (getting older) and I didn't think
    I needed that much stall to keep the motor running under load. I hope
    you understand what I was trying to say.
    
    On the TH400 & TH350....
     
        In stock form I've found the 400 to shift MUCH harder than the 350.
        I've had shift kits on both trannys in different cars and was told
        by the guy who does my transmissions it would take a bigger
        adjustment to make a 350 shift as hard as a 400 with a mild shift
        kit. He also said it takes less torque to turn a TH350 than it does
        a TH400. One transmission had an advantage over the other.
    
    Rod.

    
    
    	Sounds like a Holeshot in the ~2500 range may be worth looking
    into. Re: -1, are you saying that a converter like this would be
    'mushy' in the say 1000-2000 RPM range and then basically lock up in
    the ~2500 RPM range and beyond? If so, sounds like what I'm looking
    for.
    
    	Any specific recommendations of brands/models of converters?
    
    	Dave

    Dave, another thing to keep in mind is heat. The higher the stall
    speed, the more heat that is going to be generated from the slipage.
    You'll need an extra tranny cooler. I've got a B&M Supercooler that's
    rated to cool a tranny pulling a 24K lbs load. (There's *lots* of slip
    going on as you creep up a mountainside at .02 mph). :-) It was less
    than $50. The Supercooler is much sturdier than a regular tube and fin
    cooler, and also smaller for the same btu capacity.
    
    Harry
    

    So how do they perform on the highway. WHat happens when your cruising
    at 50MPH and only turning 2000RPM and have a 2500 RPM stall? Does it
    act like a slipping clutch then as well?
    
    Another question....I keep hearing "n to x RPM for a given application".
    Just what does that mean? Is the application the engine it's used
    with, the engine specs, (cam etc), or how it's used, road vs drag.???
    
    I know I need a converter but I'm concerned about what RPM range I can
    live with.  How does the weight of the vehicle effect the stall spped?
    This is a great discussion....anyone got pointers on how to do drag
    race staging/ starts with one?
    
    /tb/

    
    
    	Got the 455 pulled today, it went alot more easily that I thought
    it was going to go. My new engine puller/shop crane really makes
    pulling engines an incredible breeze. But what a filthy mess and my new
    concrete floor isn't so new anymore!
    
    	Now all I have to find is some $$$$ so I can proceed with the
    program.
    
    	Dave 

    
    	I'm going to need to get some mounts to put my 455 in my '68
    Firebird. What kind of mounts would one use for this? Will the stock
    400 mounts work? I have seen " '67 - '72 400 " and " '70 - '72 455 "
    mounts listed seperatly which really doesn't help the " '68 455 "
    picture.
    
    	What kind of mounts do I need?
    
    	Additionally, do I need to put a TH400 crossmember in or can my
    original manual transmission mount be adapted for the TH400?
    
    	Dave 

     Let me try again....
    
    
        The 455 block has two different engine mount locations cast into
    the block. Since you have a '69 and earlier Firebird you would probably
    have to get mounts designed for a 455 that would go into a full bodied
    Pontiac like the Bonneville, Catalina, or the Grand Ville. The '70 1/2
    & up Firebird line used a different mount and frame location than other
    Pontiacs. That's why I had such a time dropping a 389 in my '73
    Formula. It had only one location for the engine mounts and I had to
    weld some Lemans frame mounts onto the support. The support on the
    front clip of the later Firebirds is situated more forward on the
    vehicle. A 1/4 of my frame mounts hung off the rear of the engine
    support after welding them in. It was a real pain and something I
    wouldn't want to have to go through again!! So with your original frame
    mounts bolted in this may have to be the way you go. 
    
    Rod. 

    
    
    	Rod,
    
    	Am I to beleive, then, that the '68 400 and the '71 455 have a
    different mounting arrangement on the block? I thought that they were
    similar if not the same. Hmmmmm.
    
    	I still do have the mounts that came with the 455 but the cross
    member holes don't match up and like you said, if one was to use them,
    the mount would hang off the back by 1/4. It seems that the
    cross-member is pretty wide but the usable area on top is relatively
    small and has 3 holes that are all crammed twards the rear of the
    member.
    
    	I think it's time to call Nunzi or HO racing. Anyone have their
    number?
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	Dave 

      From what I remember, the pre-70 400's didn't have a hole
    tapped in the front sides of the block like the 70 and up blocks.
    This would make putting an older block into a newer car a hassle.
    Since you are putting a newer block (post 69) into an older body
    you should be o.k.
    
    Rich

    
    
    	So we're saying that stock '68 mounts for a 400 ought to work just
    fine for a '71 455? If so, I'll go ahead and order some and see how
    they look. 
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	I'm going to call a couple of places tomorrow morning and see if I
    can find someone familiar with the exact situation of putting a 455
    into a '68 Bird. Then I'll order the appropriate mounts.
    
    	Also, I'm taking in the block and crank tomorrow for the machine
    work. Got up at 05:00 this morning and agonized over 3 or so blueprint
    sources compiling data regarding clearances to specify to the machine
    shop. Hope I have it all correct!
    
    	Dave

    
    I'm no Pontiac man but I did help swap out a 400 for a 455 H.O.recently
    It was in a 77 frame though but the mounts were an exact match. Be
    warned! due to the forward lean of the motor without the tranny we
    thought we had problem and call H.O. racing. but ofcourse it was
    fine.
    		Dr Olds

    
    
    	re: 36.23
    
    
    	The following are estimates:
    
    	Block/crank machine work		$530.00
     
    	Rods with ARP bolts (custom)		$450.00
    
    	Custom Head work (Port, Polish, etc)    $600.00
    
    	Misc Engine parts (Pistons, bearings    $1300.00
    	Ignition, roller rockers, carb, 
        intake, custom made cam, rings,
    	gaskets, timing chain, hi-flow pumps,
    	shifter, etc.
    
    	Trans race rebuild			$512.00
    
    	Various misc parts to put it all	$600.00 
    	together
    
    	More that escapes my mind		$???.??
    
    	I have receipts that I am going to total up when this is all said
    and done.
    
    	*NOTE* We are talking a 455/TH400 combo being put into a car that
    	had a Chevy 350: quite a bit of changes.
    
    
    	Also, I found my motor frame mounts from my 'mentor' in Tennesee,
    he had a set on a '68 sitting out in his private wrecking yard. Got the
    upper motor mounts from Ames Performance Engineering along with my
    TH400 crossmember ($95.00) which I forgot to add above. Glad (maybe
    not) I have receipts!
    
    
    	Dave
    
    
    	P.S. For the benefit of you non-Pontiac types, (I used to be one)
    building a performance Pontiac engine is an *EXPENSIVE* proposition due
    mainly to the relative unavailability of 'cheap' after-market parts.
    When I built my Chev 400 for my Toyota Landcruiser, it was much more
    inexpensive due to the relative popularity of these engines making for
    better parts availability. Many of the parts must be obtained from
    wrecking yards or NOS suppliers and custom re-worked. Rods are an
    excellent example - just try to find a set of performance forged rods
    for Pontiac new! I have been quoted up to $1800.00 for a set!
    
    
    	When I am done with the project, I'll document the parts used along
    with their suppliers should anyone else want to build a 'mighty'
    Pontiac. I've learned allot. Many thanks to my Tenesee mentor. And also
    by the way, one of his engines ( and associated car and driver ) just 
    won the World Title in Bracket Racing.
    
    	Dave

    Dave,
    
      The 400 I had done is a Pontiac so I know what prices are like. It
    just seems that $4k is a little steep. Even Tom Fisher's 428CJ didn't
    cost that much including the C6 rebuild, and bigblock Ford parts aren't
    cheap.
    
    Chris

    
    
    	Chris,
    
    	Didn't mean to offend you, I was addressing my PS section to those
    who build a lot of Chevys and wonder at the price of Pontiac building.
    I know yours is a Pontiac. 
    	Well, you got me wondering now so I'm going to grab my receipts and
    type them in here; engine only (not *quite* done with it yet)
    
    	Rods/Cam				$500.00
    
    	Bearings/oil pump/cam lube		$156.48
    
    	Block/Crank machining			$537.13
    
    	Lifters/carb studs/mufflers		$342.46
    	fan, roler rockrs, etc
    
    	Pistons/ MSD ignition/timing set	$647.90
    	shifter/push rods, etc.
    
    	Headers/ Cam dial kit			$293.34
    
    	Rear-main seals				  $6.38
    
    	Fuel pump/cam key			 $63.41
    
    	Rings/ gasket set			$103.59
    
    	Carb/ intake manifold			$524.27
    
    
    			Total		       $3174.96
    
    
    	Well I was close. Anyway, add the other things like transmission
    and all the odds and ends and what do you get? 4K-ish
    
    	Dave
    
    
    	(wow)

    Dave,
    
    You didn't offend me, it just seemed pretty high, even for a Poncho
    engine.
    
    Chris
    

    
    
    	This weekend, after all these weeks of prepairation and massive big
    buck layouts, I get to put my 455 and my TH400 in my Firebird. All that
    will then remain is to hook everything up, get my driveshaft modified
    and get a killer radiator. Then we should be able to turn the key.
    
    
    	And hope everything works out and lives....
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	Got it in and am now on the home stretch to turning the key (after
    some more massive outlays of cash..)
    
    	Ordered the radiator this morning from Ames Performance; the best
    all-around deal I could find at $219.00
    
    	And now for a question. How does the PCV system connect on a
    Pontiac? There are 3 choices as I see it and they are all based on
    a breather cap on the passenger side valve cover:
    
    	1) PCV valve on driver side valve cover, plug the opening on the
    top of the top cover.
    
    	2) PCV valve connected to the vent on the top cover, put another
    breather cap on the driver side valve cover.
    
    	3) Connect vent on top cover to filtered air supply, put PCV valve
    in driver side valve cover.
    
    	How does it go anyway?
    
    
    	Thanks, Dave

    Huh?
    
    
        Are you talking about the PVC valve on the lifter valley cover?
    That connects to the intake! You can get reproduction air breather
    style oil caps for the valve cover from any poncho specialty shops.
    Ames included. They also sell replacement grommets that insert into the 
    lifter valley cover to replace the old dried out originals. This is
    where the PVC valve goes BTW. Are you using original Pontiac Valve
    covers? The diameter of the fill and vent holes are different than
    aftermarket ones on most occasions. Make sure you have all your parts 
    for the waterpump housing when you put it back together. That is an
    easy one to overlook. I did it on my '64 motor. The motor got very hot
    on initial startup and scared the pee outta mee! So before you start it
    up sit down and think about everything that you nmay have left out or
    could go wrong. I did and still missed this. Good luck!!!
    
                                              Rod. 

    
    
    	Well, after a few go arounds with the starter (which ended in
    replacing it), a few spectacular flame columns coming out of the carb
    due to retarded timing. it fired up. And what a racket! What a rush!
    The fire-up occured on New-Years day; thought I'd start it out right. I
    was able to find some 108 octane hi-lead for the initial start -
    $3.20/gal. 
    
    	I may have to put on a more beefy exhaust system if I try taking it
    to the streets. I fired it in the garage and due to bad weather,
    haven't even backed it out yet. I'll just run it a while inside and get
    a nice breakin that way. But is sure is *LOUD* inside!!!
    
    	And now for a question. This new engine includes an internally
    regulated alternator, the car is wired for an externally regulated
    alternator. Does anyone know or can look on their internally regulated
    early '70s GM rig and tell me what the 2 control wires on the
    alternator connect to? I would assume that one connects to the battery
    but which one and I haven't the faintest idea what the other wire
    connects to. The big red wire is easy but what about the other two? I
    have the wiring diagram for my '68 which shows the externally regulated
    system; I may have to find a wiring diagram for a GM car with an
    internally regulated system.
    
    	Any help would be appreciated.
    
    	Thanks!
                                                            
    
    	Dave

    	It seems I answered my own question after having a look at some GM
    service manuals I have. The #1 terminal connects to + through the
    ignition switch and a "10 ohm, 6 watt" resistor and the #2 terminal
    connects directly to +.
    
    	If anyone is able to refute this, please do so. I intend to hook it
    up like this and then turn the key this Saturday.
    
    	BTW, if one hooks the two wires going to the external regulator to
    the terminals on the internally regulated alternator, this exact effect
    (with the possible exception of the resistor) is duplicated. I'll have
    to see if there is a resistor somewhere in-line. The only thing I can
    see that it would do is to act as a current limiter should the
    regulator in the alternator short.
    
    	Dave

Dave,

Funny that you should ask this question.  The wiring harness in the Vega was
pretty hacked up when I got it and I was just rewiring the alternator circuit 
last night.

The way that mine is hooked up is that the two #10 red wires (one from the 
alternator post and one from the alternator connector) are spliced together
and connect to the starter (battery) and to the horn relay (with a feed to the 
rest of the car).  I believe that ine of the red wires is the output from the 
alternator and the other is (I think?) used to energize the altrernator field.
There is also a small brown wire coming from the alternator connector and this
is the one that is used to activate the "GEN" or "ALT" light.

I have Vega wiring diagrams for 71-77 if it would help you out.  I think that 
the Vega wiring is pretty simple straightforward generic GM.

Mark
(who is learning more about auto electrics that he ever wanted to know)

    
    
    	Thanks to everyone who responded to my request. I got the
    alternator puttin' out current. What I did with the two wires that
    connect into the plug that connect to the alternator is the following.
    
    Connected the red wire to the main + and the brown one to the ignition.
    Amazingly enough, these two wires were attached to the external
    regulator to begin with. Then I experimented with various resistors in
    series with the brown wire. I found that a 100 ohm one did the job;
    problem being is that if it is too small, the engine won't quit when
    you turn the key off seeing as how the current flows out of the
    alternator, down the brown wire to the ignition and keeps it going. I
    considered using a diode but figured that this is what the factory
    would have done if it was the right thing to do. So I stuck with the
    resistor.
    
    So the engine portion of the project is done. Now to the myriad of
    'little things' that need to be done to make the car as new.

    
    
    	Well today, Saturday, I took it out on the road to go to the
    emission inspection place so I could get the registration current. I
    passed with flying colors the first time! I guess my tuning the carb a
    few times paid off. Like I told the guy at rhe emission place "I passed
    eh? Well I should have used a more radical cam! (I'm using a 294/302) I
    must admit, however, that I did make it to above 50% of both the
    acceptible CO and HC!
    
    	How does it drive? Like a wild rocket car! Even although I was
    attempting to drive it like a little old lady, I burned rubber a couple
    of times and got quite a few looks as I drove through town with my
    glass-pacs. Talk about hellatious noise! Wen I get my first noise
    polution ticket, I'll probably swap the exhaust system out and use some
    of those baffle mufflers which supposedly cause virtually no back
    pressure; much less than glass-pacs.
    
    	Can't wait to swap out the 3000RPM chip in the ignition with my
    6000RPM chip and get things going!!!
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	Took the "Road Rocket" to work today and had to give some guys a
    ride at lunch. I don't remember who in this notes file prophecied that
    I'd have a traction problem but I sure do!
    
    	I'll have to confess that I did get (a very little) heavy on the
    gas pedal during a couple 0-60 time trials and had to back off almost
    immediatly due to the car degenerating into wild fish-tailing. Was only
    able to achieve about a 6 second run due to the traction. I've got wide
    profile tires, perhaps I should find a puddle to burn out in or adjust
    my ladder bars a bit. Of course my posi may not be doing its job too
    well either!
    
    	Dave

    If it's getting squirrely, then my guess is that the posi works just
    fine. Once both tires break traction, they go where ever they please.
    Sounds like it's time for some more suspension tuning and perhaps some
    stickier sneakers.
    
    Harry
    

    
    
    
    	Yea, like some Mickey Thompsons. What size/type would be good for
    my situation other than slicks? Still have to drive in the snow
    occasionally...
    
    	Dave

    Dave,
    
         I had 275x50x15s on my Mustang and they had great traction with
    just about 9 inches of tread on the ground. While these are fairly wide
    clearance was not a problem due to the small cicumference. I had them
    mounted on an 8 inch rim. Before that I had 255x60x15s that would rub
    the wheel wells under heavy acceleration FWIW these only had @ 8 inches
    of tread on the ground. The brand of the 50s was BFG radial TA.
    
          Dean
    
    

Dave,

One of the enthuiast rags just ran a street/strip tire test.  They tested all
of the super sticky DOT legal drag type tires.  Did you see it?  If not, I have
it at home and could run a copy for you.

I plan on using that type of tire on the Vega.  If the road surface is not 
perfect, ita has a tendancy to roast the tires.  It's easy to tell that the
posi is working fine though.  :-)

Mark

    
    
    	Mark,
    
    	No sure didn't see the report; I'd like a copy if you can manage
    it. Just send it on to DVO/B06. Thanks! I will probably be in the tire
    buying mode soon...
    
    	Another general question to throw out for general discussion. Has
    anyone ever seen a chart or something which shows the minimum octanes
    recommended to support different compression ratio/density altitude
    combinations? I am presently experimenting with my 'bird to see what is
    the lowest octane I can run without pre-detonation. So far, I've tried
    108 and a 50/50 mix of 108 and 94 both sucessfully. Next, I thought I'd
    try straight 94 and see what happens. My C/R (Assuming 100% volumetric
    efficiency) is in the 11.6 neighborhood and I'm at ~ 5200-6000'
    elevation. I know that 94 would probably detonate like crazy at sea
    level but I wonder what it would do here. It certainly is cheaper;
    $1.55 vs. $3.20 for 108! Even the 50/50 mix is expensive!
    
    	Dave 

I have never seen a chart for cylinder pressure/density altitude/octane.  I would
guess that this would be difficult to so since piston shape, cc shape, head
material (alloy/steel), ect. also come into play.

I run 94 octane leaded premium in the Vega and have no detonation problems.  I
have 10:1 cr, 36 degrees total timing (12 deg initial), and do my driving at an 
altitude of 6100 to 6600 (home).

Mark

    
    
    	Well I just poured 5 gallons of 94 on top of about 2 gallons of
    50/50 94 and 108 in my Firebird's tank and took it out for a spin.
    Didn't notice any detonation; even with the ambeint temperature around
    25 degrees. I guess there is an advantage to living in this altitude! I
    have yet to run it on 'pure' 94 though. How much do you pay for your 94
    Mark? Its $1.60/gal for me...
    
    	Dave

    Dave, just think how nice it would run down here at sea level or
    so...say around 400 ft.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
    
    btw..no I'm not following you from note to note...:-)

Dave,

Last time I put some in the tank (a couple of weeks ago) it was $1.599.  It was
as high as 1.749 a few months ago.

Mark

    
    
    	The Posi on the Firebird seems to work just fine. Took a few folks
    out for a ride Sunday and looking in my rear view mirror, saw two S
    shaped black lines on the pavement. If I ever get seroius about racing
    this thing, I am going to have to get some tires.
    
    	Thanks for the article, Mark. Looks like the M&H 20s are the winners
    for my weight/power combination but I will probably want to get
    something a little more hiway capable, like the Mickey Thompsons. Also
    I'd like to get some more references regarding the T/A radials. My
    brother had them on his '67 bird and could not break them off the
    pavement; about the only thing that was breaking was the back of the
    seat you were riding in!
    
    	Lots of fun

    
    
    	In response to 57.63...
    
    	Mark, Al and a couple of other tranny mutants I have talked with
    say that the symptom I describe has nothing to do with a loose torque
    converter rather the valve body. Al's coming over tomorrow night for a
    drive and we may end up pulling the tranny pan Saturday. He said that
    he built it to tear your head off at the shift points, It doesn't. Just
    hope I don't have to pull the tranny back out! What a bummer that would
    be to disassemble the car again...
    
    	I have identified my tires to solve my traction problems. I tried
    to select a tire that would be streetable and give modest traction; in
    other words a compromise in both areas. The winner? Mickey Thompson
    Sportsman Pros 29x12.50x15s. Actually, they are only beaten by M&Hs in
    traction but I would hate to be on M&Hs in a good rain storm...
    
    	I'm going to wait until I get my tires for the rear before worring
    too much about the speedo seeing as how it would probably change again
    with the new tires. Found that my drive gear is 20 tooth and the driven
    gear is 35 tooth. The speedo reads 145% of what it should read.
    Probably with this disparity, I'm looking at having to replace the
    drive gear as well as the driven gear or getting an external adapter
    box. Where do you get them?
    
    	Dave

Dave,

You get them at speedo shops.  They can build any ratio that you want.  I got
mine from a place here in the Springs, Speedometer Service.  I just told them
that I needed a ratio adaptor to slow my speedo down by 23%.  They had one ready
for me in less than 24 hours.  The cost is $35 rebuilt and $50 for a new one.

If you can't find what you need in Denver, I'd be glad to get one for you here.

Mark

    
    
    Hey guys, just out of curiosity, what have any of you done with the
    oil filter on your Poncho's?  I have a '67 400.  The idiot I bought
    it from had some headers that hung really low (and the front end was
    pretty much shot so consequently the headers were flattened by about
    3/4-inch!).  But even though the headers hung low, the filter was
    within a quarter of an inch of one of the pipes - the oil was literally
    being cooked.  I completely rebuilt the front end and replaced the old
    headers with some new ones (I forget, but can find out, the brand).
    I moved the battery into the trunk (not permenently installed) and put
    two filters in series up where the battery was.  It really works great
    (ie, runs cooler, better filtration, more capacity) and still looks
    nice and clean.  But I'm pretty sure I'd like to bump the car back to
    original before I sell it by bringing the battery back up front.  Are
    the stock manifolds better for oil clearance?  Has anybody else had
    this problem and if so, what did YOU do?
    
    	Thanks for the input.
    
    
    Hammer.

TransDapt makes a kit that relocates your oil filter from
where it is on the engine to wherever you like (within reason).

The kit has an adapter that you fit to the engine in place of the
filter, a pair of hi-temp 5/8" ID neoprene hoses, 3' long, and another
adapter that you connect the hoses to and mount on the firewall or
wherever.  You screw the filter to this.

I've got on on my mini-van which had an oil filter positioned directly
above the starter, which took an oil bath with each oil/filter change.

It's been in service for two years now and while I will replace the hoses
this Spring, they look sturdy enough for another year.

Chris

    
    
    	I used Hedman Headders of a variety which are special purpose
    racing and just for the 67-69 Firebirds; I don't have a problem with my
    oil filter. That is if you consider having to jab a screwdriver through
    the filter to remove it not a problem. No way can I get a wrench on it.
    But if one doesn't mind pokin' it with a screwdriver, it works fine.
    
    	I recently bought a dual remote filter setup at an automotive
    swap-meet about a month ago for $5 and have been condidering where to
    place it in the engine compartment; not many choices!
    
    	If you're going back to manifolds, let me know! I've got a pair of
    '70 RAIII GTO manifolds that I'll sell you cheap (not too cheap). They
    may not be original but they breathe real fine. They're the short
    variety so you might have a little problem connecting up the head pipe
    but where there is a will, there is a way. 
    
    	Dave

    Dave, I don't know which Hedman Header you got but the Hedmans I bought
    for my '67 400 bird don't allow installation of the oil filter without
    removing the header. Even then the clearance was too close > .5". I
    went with the Trans-dapt relo kit with the 48" hoses. Ended up making 
    2 custom elbows because the kit only comes with straight fittings,
    placing the hoses right into the header. I also made a heat shield that 
    fits between the header and the stock filter location because there is a 
    lot of heat thrown from the headers. Located the filter on the right
    subframe rail just forward of the crossmember. 
    
    

    
    The Hedman Headers that I got for my Firebird were part number 35270.
    They give me about 7/8" between the header and the filter. What kind of
    filter are you using? I use the FRAM PH-twenty-something that's in the
    book under '71 455. I'ts not a very long filter, I must admit. 
    
    I'm still looking for a place to mount my dual remote filter mount.
    Looks lke if I'm serious, the only option is to put the battery in the
    trunk. To note 86!
    
    Dave 

    
    I'll have to check my numbers.  I'm in the midst of moving right now
    so entropy has sort of taken things over for a while.  I'll check as
    soon as I have the chance.
    
    Hammer.

    Well, the "bird" is finally on the road... Registered/insured/inspected
    last week so I could take it out on the highway to see what eles I had
    to work on.. Hard to tell what else isn't quite right just in the
    driveway.
    
    After a little (actually alot) fine tuning it runs pretty good. The
    slight haze of white smoke has stoped as well as the strong smell of
    unburned gas fumes. The more I drive it the better it gets. I am going
    to have to rebuild the engine thou in the near future.. with 74K on the
    engine, it is a little tired.. not quite the get_up_and_go it should
    have.
    
    Going to run it with primer for awhile until I can afford $$$$$$ to
    have it painted.. I'm telling everyone to use their imagination for
    now... Cany Apple red with a couple of clear coats..
    
    Paul

    I have a T/A with the H.O. 305.  I just gave it a tune up changing plugs, 
    wires, dist cap, rotor, oil, filters (gas/oil) etc etc.. Before I did
    this when I got on it (leaving the selector in "d") it would shift
    right around 6000 rpm..Now for some reason it shifts at 5300 rpm..If I
    put it in low (1) it will still pull strong to 6000 but not when in
    D..In the 2nd to 3rd shift it changes right around 6000 rpm..I checked 
    all connections, hoses, vacumns, and found nothing wrong..Any ideas as
    to what I might have done here..The trans is a TCI 700R4, I use an
    aftermarket chip in the computer..
    
    Thanks Jim
    

    did you use all gm parts or aftermarket parts?
    
    i'd suspect the gas filter is too restrictive or second that you have
    bad distributor parts.   that is if in fact you didn't disturb a vaccum
    line.
    
    steve

    Jim, the 700R4 uses a cable from the throttle linkage to determine when
    to shift. It doesn't even have a vacuum modulator, so your tune-up
    shouldn't have affected shift points. To adjust the cable, find the
    D-shaped housing near the throttle, there you'll find a spring loaded
    'button' recessed in the 'D'. Press the button then pull the cable
    sheath back towards the firewall. It should slide back easily for a
    half inch or so. Then get in the drivers seat and press the
    accellerator to the floor. This will automatically adjust the tranny
    linkage. Now you're ready for a test drive.
    
    One other thing that could affect it... Did you by chance install some
    new carpet or floor mats lately? If so, then the throttle may no longer
    be opening all the way due to the carpet being too thick to allow the
    pedal full travel.
    
    Harry
    

     Thanks,
       I will give the adjustment a try..I might have messed it up a bit
    putting the new wires and cap in..Not a whole lot of room in there..
    I did put in another gas filter just in case but have not had the
    chance to check it out..
    
    Thanks alot for the help
    
    Jim

    What is typically used as the "blue book" for the '67-'69 Firebirds?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    good condition, 3600-4000 for hardtop;  conv. 4600-5500

    I have a good friend who is restoring a 71 formula with the 455 HO. I
    go over to his house fairly often and help him work on it.  The car is
    "numbers matching" and he wants to keep the car as stock as possible.
    We have been very sucessful so far at finding parts (boneyards and
    reproduction bone jobs :)).  The only problem is we cant seem to find
    an interior.  Acording to him the 71 Firebird interior had many one
    year parts.  If anyone knows a good source for a 71 formula interior,
    please let us know.  We have been getting some parts from YEAR 1.  Some
    of these parts are very pricey.  However, they dont have our interior
    at any price.....
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kurt Astor
    
    PS. Nice notes file.  I'll put more in here when I get another '70
    Nova!

    
    	Talk to "Mike" (Jendryka?):  801-975-9782.  If it has anything to
    	do with a Pontiac, he can help or at least be a good start.

    
    Thanks for the pointer. BTW we had the distributor re-curved before the
    snow fell here in Colorado. Its no longer the same car.  Runs great now.
    The guy we had do the work in Boulder hooked up some hoses we couldnt
    figure out as well as a couple electrical connections we couldnt figure
    out using the wireing diagrams from the library. He also adjusted the
    carb. He did all this for 50 bucks.  If anyone is intersted I'll post
    his name and number.  He seemed to know more about the 455HO than
    anyone I've ever talked to. That may be due to the fact he has 3 GTO's
    with the same engine :)
    
    Kurt

    
    
    	I'd be interested, Kurt.  Always good to have another connection!
    
    
    
    	Carl.

    Hi ,
    I'm a new noter here , in the land of small size engines . i.e - 1.6 ,
    1.8 etc.
    
    I just want to know about pontiacs FIREBIRDS and TRANSAM's .
    Which are the better ones to get , i.e year , engine size( in c.c size
    if poss. ) what to look out for , mpg , speeds , and mod to improve 
    performance .
    
    
    
    
               Cheers...............
                                      ED.....

.......but I recommend the current model as the best one to get :-).

With the 5.7 liter LT1 engine and 6-speed box, it's a wonder machine.

For more traditional iron, the '67-'74 models, with at least the 6.6 liter (400
cubic inch) engine size, are preferable. The original Trans Ams (starting in
'69, I think) are truly hot machines. The '75 through '85 models slowed down a
bunch, due to smog, fuel consumption and safety standards set by the U.S.
government. In the '82-'92 series, the '86 and later TPI motored cars are the
ones to get, in either 5 liter (with 5-speed) or 5.7 liter (auto only) form.

Bruce

    What about the '77-'81's with either the 6.6 liter or the 4.2 turbo ,
    are they good ones or a lemon , also what are the specs on these and
    could they be improved with mods.
    
    
    To have a car with a biiiiiiiiig V8 and engine size is better then sex.
    
                        .................. ED.........

      77-79 TA 6.6's are the hot ticket in those years.  They are a
    better performer than the "regular" 6.6 models. I don't really like
    the turbo's, 'cause I don't like 301's, but I have never owned one.
    
    Also, the '85 TPI models had a few more horses than the '86 TPI's, but I 
    can't remember why... I think it had something to do with the automatic
    tranny not holding up, so the horses were dropped a bit.
    
    Rich

    What dose the T/A- special edition have that the rest dont.
    Is there easy and cheap was to tune etc. to get better speed and accel.
    out of them . ( 6.6 liters ).

    Would it be poss. to add a super charger or a turbo kit to a '77-79'
    T/A , and if so , what would be the benifits and pitfalls .
    
    
    
    
    .................................... ED.............................

Ed,

>    What dose the T/A- special edition have that the rest dont.
No idea, I'm a Chevy man.  "Special Edition" sounds like a trim option to me.
>    Is there easy and cheap was to tune etc. to get better speed and accel.
>    out of them . ( 6.6 liters ).
Easy?  Try time consuming.  Cheap?  Depends.  Supertuning your car is easy
but it requires trial and error to make sure your changes (carb tuning, 
ignition setup, valve train setup) are yielding results (aka better 
speed/acceleration).

>    Would it be poss. to add a super charger or a turbo kit to a '77-79'
>    T/A , and if so , what would be the benifits and pitfalls .
Yes to both.
Supercharger
Good: Lot's of power, easy to install, blower whine is cool. works as soon
as you step on it.  Score lots of babes on appearance.
Bad: uses a little power to produce power, it'll require you to cut up your
hood.  You _may_ need to make sure your pistons (compression) and cam
are geared to work with the particular blower.
Turbo Charger
Good: cheap or "free" power using exhaust waste, will fit under the hood.  
Whistles dixie. 
Bad: HOT.  An exhaust plumming nightmare. potential for turbo lag depending
on the type of unit.  I'd assume they would be more expensive than a super
charger.  Installation may cost you also.  I've never priced a turbo
system for a car that didn't have a factory turbo.
                                  
How big is your wallet.  I'd go with the supercharger, assuming your engine
is stock, you shouldn't have to change anything internally.     

As an alternative, if your engine is stock (or slightly modified), you may want 
to investigate a nitros set up.  It works when you want it to, it's economical,
it can be easily removed, it's effective and safe when used PROPERLY.

Regards,
MadMike

    
    call me surprized !!!.    No one here mentions the 72 - 73
    trans am with a 455 SD !!  Limited build production and 
    mucho bucks ($25K??), but goes like a 'raped ape' right off
    show room floor.  Able to generate smoke from rear tires
    on a 1 - 2 shift at ~ 30mph.  Recent article in magazine
    about'm.  I'll try to dig it up and post it tonight/tomorrow.
    

      The T/A 6.6 was a performance package offered in 77-79 on
    top of the regular Trans-Ams.  Models with this option can be easily 
    identified by the sticker on the hood scoop.  A regular model has 
    6.6 LITRE on the scoop.  The high perf model has T/A 6.6 on the scoop.
    
    The package contained a hotter cam, better exhaust etc.
    If I remember right, this option was only available on the Poncho 400.
    (not the 301 or Olds 403)
    
    Rich

    
    
    	RE .72:
    
    	I AGREE!  None better than the Super Duties!!    NONE!
    
    	NONE, NONE, NONE, NONE, NONE!
    
    
    
    	One other goody:
    		Ram Air IV '69 Firebirds, if you can find 'em.
    		

    I had the opportunity to buy a SD-455, 73 Firebird.  I don't recall
    if it was a trans-am, but the dude wanted $3500 for it.  This was
    back when I was still driving my cheesy 250 '77 Camaro.
    
    After a while I got tired of having my doors blown off every weekend
    I decided to get either a:
    
    Trans-am (naww, it's a pontiac, and I had lots of chevy parts)
    Corvette (you kidding? I can't even afford to insure that thang)
    Z/28   (ahh, that's better... and the rest is history).
    
    MadMike

    
    I was off by one year with the Super duty 455's.  It was 73 - 74..
    sorry.  Anyways..  here's what the magazine artical says verbatum:
    
    While Chevys' Big block Camaro was collecting dust, Pontiac hit the
    streets with the ultimate T/A, the Super Duty 455.  Built only in
    1973-74, the super duty could run 12s with headers and a super tune.
    For $521 you got a car HOT ROD tested with 3.42 gears and 70-series 
    tires, and ran 13.52 at 104 mph. The rumor was that Pontiac had a car
    at the proving grounds with 3.90 gears, 60-series tires, tuned carb,
    special distributor and headers that was running 12s. Remember, this
    is during the gas crisis.
    When it first appeared, the SD-455 carried a 310hp rating (net
    horsepower), but after a mid-year cam change to meet emissions
    standards, the motor was re-rated at 290. Unique to the SD was a 
    reinforced four-bolt main block with extra webbing cast into the valve
    lifter valleys for added strength, and provisions for a dry sump oiling
    in case anyone wanted to go racing.  The SD also got unique forged
    steel connecting rods, cylinder heads with round exhaust ports and 
    matching exhaust manifolds.  The compression was a low 8.4:1. 
    A very rare bird, only 252 SD T/As were built in 1973 (72 with four
    speed manual) and 943 in 1974 (212 with the four speed), making
    super duty cars expensive.  In todays market, Trans Ams with SD-455
    on teh shaker hood scoops demand between $11,000 and $20,000 (depending
    on condition and mileage). And they always demand respect.
    - pg 45 May 1994 Popular Hot Rodding.
    
    The 1969 Ram Air IV is mentioned in this article also ("The five
    Fastest Trans Ams of all time"). Others are - 1975 455HO, 1989 20th
    anniversary edition (with the 3.8L turbo borrowed from the buick GN),
    and the 1994 25th anniversary edition. 
    

    I'm begining to browse around the want-ads (auto hunter, etc.) for a
    Trans Am. I'm looking at 1985 models or later. I noticed a couple notes
    addressing "what's the best to buy, what to look for", but I'd like to
    ask again, for more info.  From previous notes, I gleaned that '86 or
    later, TPI, is the way to go. Anything else?  What's a "good" price
    range -- not always what is in a book, right?  (I'd be paying cash)
    
    I asked the same question in CARBUFFS, twice, but no one answered. 
    Dunno if cars built after 1972 are considered muscle cars, but thought
    I'd take a shot.  I have zero experience buying cars save off of a car
    lot.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    kim

    Hi Kim,
     Up untill spring I had an '86 IROC, so maybe I can help. Get the 350
    engine if you can, the 305 is good, but the 350 has more power for
    little loss in MPG. (17 vs 18 mpg) The GTA is a very nice package on
    the T/A, it offers an upgraded interior and the heavy-duty suspension.
    I also liked the 4-wheel disc brake option, and the posi-trac rear end.
    One option I avoided was the T-Tops, they look great, but leak, rattle,
    squeek etc. One note of caution, these cars are touchy in rain, and
    terrible in snow. I would switch from my 245-45VR-16 summer tires to a
    set of 215-65R-15 ice and snow tires, and still had trouble driving in
    winter. The Formula gives you all the performance options, but without
    the ground effects and nice interior, it saves a few pounds in weight
    and a few bucks. I personnaly prefer the GTA. For what its worth, I
    bought the IROC with 35,000 miles and it was totaled with 103,000 miles
    on it. During that time I had no major problems, just normal wear and
    tear (tires, brakes, shocks, struts, battery and exhaust) When the car
    went it was tight and rattle free, (no T-tops). I still miss it. 
    Good luck, and if you have any specific questions, I know these cars
    pretty well.
                                                     John M.
    

      Don't count out the '85 TPI's either.  My wife has one 
    and she loves it.  You have to get an automatic that year though
    to get the TPI.
    
    Rich
    
    

    re .78 and .79 
    
    
    Thanks.  With regards to the GTA's suspension, I've heard it's "stiff".  
    Not being too-too terribly up on my in the know car-lingo, does a stiff 
    suspensive mean you *feel* the bumps, even if your car doesn't bounce
    all over hte place?  I had a Suzuki Samurai and if I had a work to
    describe its suspension, Stiff would be the word.  I hated hitting
    bumps because you *really* felt it. 
    
    I'm assuming from descriptions that the GTA does *not* automatically
    include the larger engine with it's package (or TPI, which I am taking
    to mean Twin Port Injection? ?), and rather tha GTA simply includes the
    suspension and spiffier interior?
    
    T-tops do look nice on the car, especially when they are off, but the
    more I hear about the squeak, rattle and leak (leaks seem more
    uncommon, but I'm not sure I want a rattling roof), the less I'm
    enthused about them.  I know they impact the handling of the car, too,
    but that's less of a concern for me because I doubt that I'll be racing
    the car or anything.  I have not the expertise, although I've always
    wanted to drag race someone :) (and win).  I've not exactly had the
    cars, either.  :)
    
    
    Thanks for the input, thus far.  If anyone else has a contribution, I'd
    love it hear it.  Also, general tips on how to tell if a car is in
    general good health before purchasing it.  
    
    (FWIW, .78, I prob. wouldn't be driving the TA in the snow.  I don't
    want it to rust out.  We didn't have that problem in California....)
    
    kim

re: Note 63.77 by STAR::MDNITE::RIVERS
    
    >I asked the same question in CARBUFFS, twice, but no one answered. 
Carbuffs is geared towards beemer driving, champaign sippin' folks.  :^)
"What are the best wippers for my Mercedes?"  Musclecars is where it's at.

> Dunno if cars built after 1972 are considered muscle cars, but thought
I have a 1980 Z/28 Camaro with a 454 in it.  I'd hope it's classified as
a "muscle car".  :^)  It sure smokes enough of 'em.

re: your real issue.
TPI is probably what you want.  It's more precise, and the carbed motors
tend to be more tempermental.  I don't screw around with the electronic
cars much, so I can't give a whole lot of details on the deal.  TPI will
yield better performance and offer less maintenance than a carburated 
Trans-Am.

Good price, is "what you see" verses what the book says and what the general
asking/getting price is for that car.   The TA will be more desirable than
an average Firebird over time.  The car is already devalued as far as NADA
book goes.  It's "just a car" now.  Now, what are you willing to pay to
get something that you want.  Do some research with a big metro newspaper
to see what people ar asking for as far as price.

Probably the biggest thing to remember or keep in mind when buying a "Muscle 
Cars" or Trans ams etc... tend to have the snot beaten out of them.  Either 
that or they've been wrecked a couple times and put back together again.
MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE BUYING BEFORE SPENDING THE MONEY.
If you need a mechanic &/or body man to help you, do it.  It's better to
have them look at the car BEFORE you've spent your money. 

MadMike

    Hi Kim,
     My IROC had the same suspension as a GTA. It is a firm suspension, but
    it is much more comfortable than a typical 4 X 4. As a comparison my
    brother had a Jeep Renegade that bounced over every painted line on the
    highway 8^). Several friends have Mustang GT's and LX's and we swapped
    around to compare. We all agreed that the IROC handled better, and rode
    much better, but my 305 TPI could not keep up with a 5-speed GT. The
    automatic Mustangs are much easier to beat. My suggestion is to drive a
    few and see for yourself. As far as I was concerned the IROC rode and
    handled great.
                                                     John M.
    

    Thanks again for the replies.  You guys were right, MUSCLECARS is more
    informative than CARBUFFS.  ;)
    
    
    Browsing through the want ads (WHEELS or AUTO TRADER or the like), I
    saw an ad for what *they* said was an '88 GTA with the 350 engine. The
    reason I think the year might be a misprint is because, despite all the
    claims to a really nice car (perfect body and interior, "faster than
    you can imagine"), the price was only $6500, which is about a couple
    thousand off of the typical asking prices for an '88 GTA.  (no, I
    didn't go look at it -- I'll wait till I have my cash to do any
    serious looking).
    
    Anyway, all that aside, the question I had was that the ad said the car
    was an automatic with a shift kit.  This is one of those stupid
    questions, but: is there such a thing as a shift kit for an automatic? 
    I confess ignornace of tinkering around with one's car to get
    performance, but my impression of aftermarket kinds of things such as
    shift kits was that they were for manual transmissions, not "wimpy"
    automatics.  :)   
    
    So...if a shift kit for an automatic exists, then I'm curious: what
    does it do and why is this a "good thing"?
    
    Thanks,
    
    kim

    re: Shiftkit.
        
    Yes they exist for automatics.  I suppose shiftkits are only made for
    automatics when used in this context.
    
    There are several styles, so you must make sure you know which one is
    installed, which should become apparent as soon as you drive the car.
    
    The shiftkit I'm familiar with is the B&M Transpak.  This is the only
    kit i'd get from B&M, I wouldn't even consider their "shift improver"
    especially since a TA or Z/28 already has a decent transmission so this
    would be redundant.
    
    The transpak comes in 3 flavors (in the same kit).  You can do the
    A).  Shift improver.  (wimpy)
    B).  Hi performance job (this is what you want)
    C).  Full race/competion (this is NOT what you want, for the street).
    
    What it does is firm up the shifts and raises the shift point of your
    transmission.  No more of that sloppy shifting at low RPM.  With the
    shift kit installed, the easy way to test for one is to step on the
    gas and see what happens.  You should get about 20 feet of rubber going
    into 2nd gear and maybe even chirp the tires when you hit 3rd.  :^D
    
    A shiftkit actually helps your transmissions life because the firmer
    shifts reduce friction from slipage and cut down on heat inside the
    transmission to some degree.
    
    A shiftkit is worth the money when you install the hi performance
    kit.

    
    
    Also, make sure your U-Joints are in good shape. :')

    > Also, make sure your U-Joints are in good shape. :')
    
    I had the misfortune of spitting out a driveshaft on one of my Camaros.
    I think in this instance however that was from a sudden shock to the
    rear end.  In most cases, the tires will be blown away before you
    break a u-joint, especially in the "performance" model of the car,
    which should have heavier than normal u-joints.
    

	I have an '88 GTA.  The suspension is unforgiving at lower speeds.  It all
	comes together once you get over 100 mph, preferably, 110 mph.  Unfortunately,
	not too politically correct these days, unless you are on a racetrack.

	My 305 TPI has the 5 speed.  Manual trans not offered for the 350 in these
	years.  It has plenty of zip, but if you want the auto, try the 350 to see
	how it meets your expectations.  

	My T-tops do not leak or rattle.  They do squeak during spirited driving.
	
	IROZs and T/As are highly prone to theft.  Always good to check out the
	car's history.

	I occassionally drive mine to work.  Give me a call if you plan to be down
	this way (Maynard) and we can go for a drive.  dtn 223-8718

	-Ken

      Don't be afraid to get the T-tops because of rattles.  If the
    roof bushings are in good shape, the tops do not rattle much.
    
    As far as the price of the GTA you mentioned goes, prices do vary
    widely.  It is not uncommon to see good deals around in private sales.
    
    Rich
    
    Rich

    Just as an update (since I was asking all those questions), I bought my
    "new" used TA today.  It's a 1989 TA (not a GTA), with the 305 TPI
    engine in it.  Automatic (not as sporty as a manual, but hey, it's a
    minor point to me).  It did have T-roofs, which don't appear ever to
    have been removed.  Body was clean, no rust, interior is in very good
    condition (didn't notice much seat wear, no cracks in dash, no rips in
    fabric, etc.)
    
    Lots of cosmetic things -- scuffed rims, cracked driver's side
    rear-view mirror, the lighter doesn't work, the radio power on button
    doesn't always stay pushed down, the latch on the "you can lift the lid
    and put things in here" thingy between the seats is broken off and
    there's a piece of plastic missing from around in the inside driver's
    side door handle.  Has the factory stereo in it, I'll probably get
    something nicer.  Didn't have an owner's manual with it, but I  found
    that I can order one from Helm's Inc for $10 including shipping.  
    
    All the right things work -- lights, wipers, motor. :) Exterior is
    white, no dings or scrapes that I noticed.
    
    I got it for $5700, which I believe (and hope) is a good price for the
    year.  Picked it up at a van conversion dealer where the car had been
    traded in for a van.  They were asking $6900.   
    
    According to various price guides and typical asking prices for 89's,
    it was clear that the mileage knocked the price down a lot.  It's got
    high miles.  It's got really high miles. Okay, it has more miles on it
    than a) you'd think from looking at it b) I'd ever personally seen on a
    car.  How many miles?
    
    187,000.  
    
    Before I get too many pieces of mail going, "you silly wench, you got
    rippped off", I should mention I took it to a service shop which has
    always seemed to do right by me (I picked it, not the dealer).  The car
    got a pretty clean bill of health.   
    
    Obvious problems were all minor.  They included:
    
    leaking power steering hose 
    Leaky valve cover gasket (big surprise -- every car I've had goes
    through these :)
    Slightly stick front driver's side brake
    Slight leak on the rear axle
    
    None of these jobs were expensive fixes. The mechanic said that he was
    quite surprised to see the mileage on it -- he thought it was possibly
    a metric to miles conversion or something. :)  (This is the first car
    I've had where the hundred-thousandth's digit actually shows)
    
    Thus far, I'm happy, but of course, I only actually bought the car this
    afternoon. :)  (trivial note: I'm pretty psyched, actually. I've wanted
    a TA for 14 long years now and finally got one).  I do want to hold
    onto the car until it really and truly is dead, so I'm very interested
    in keeping it in good working condition.   I do expect to have to have
    the engine rebuilt/replaced sometime in the relatively near future (I'm
    not expecting another 6 years on it), and probably the transmission and
    what not as well.  I've never had a car where I was really, really
    interested in keeping nice, and certainly have never owned a sports
    car, period.  I'm not sure if I'll be joining those of you who race the
    clock (sounds fun though!), but I will probably ask questions here and
    there.   
    
    I want to thank those who gave input in earlier notes -- I did listen
    and learned from them.  Yes, the T roofs squeak,and now I do truly know
    what a "stiff" suspension feels like -- bumpy. :)
    
    Cheers,
    
    kim

    Kim,
    
     While you're ordering from Helm's pick up the service manual too. It's
    a valuable tool if you're going to do any of the work yourself.
    
    Good luck with it. I've had high mileage cars (last one went 159,000
    before I sold it) that have been very reliable. 
    
    Chris

    I have a general question about the 80/81 series turbo 4.9 liter (301)
    based Firebird/Transam cars.  More specificaly the 1980 Indy pace car
    replica.  For some weird reason it really appeals to me, maybe its the
    white/charcoal paint job, who knows.  Can any of you more enlightened
    folks out there widen my horizons about this series of cars.
    
    							Humble MCS Servant
    
                                                        Allen L. Grooms
    							DTN 446-2520

    This may be a bonehead question (I'm getting leery from posting in
    CARBUFFS, so I feel a need to qualify my posts :), but can anybody tell
    me, please, where the throttle plate is in a 1989 TA?  (5.0L engine)
    The good folks at Goodyear, while inspecting my car, said that a whine
    I've been experiencing is coming from "your RPM throttle plate".  
    
    My Chilton's makes no mention of it (or I've missed it)  and I'm 
    curious where it can be found.  
    
    kim

Immediately behind the air cleaner hose.  It actually called the throttle 
plate. (or throttle butterfly)  Where the term "RPM throttle plate" comes 
from is anyone's guess, but that figures, coming from a tire changer.

Look for the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) on the right side of the TPI.  
It's connected to the shaft that actuates the throttle plate.  ...or look 
on the left side where the throttle cable and cruise control cables connect
.  That's the other end of the throttle shaft.  The throttle plate is 
inside the plenum and regulates the amount of air that can be drawn into 
the engine.  It is mechanically controlled (by your right foot).