Conference napalm::musclecars

Hi All:

	Moderator: if this is not the right place for this please move or
delete. I could not find a "for what it's worth note".

	I have a 396 that I am planning on selling and wanted to know if 
anyone can help me determine what it is worth. Some specifics..

	396 CU in Chevy big block V8.
	Bored .03 over.
	454 Steel crank.
	12.5 forged aluminum pistons.
	Holley 850 carb worked to a 930.
	Cross flow aluminum intake
	Ported heads

	This engine came out of a car I had that I am putting a 454 in so
I have no need for 2 engines. The car was dyno tested just before I bought
it and was supposedly putting out 480hp. I have no way to prove that this is
what the engine really has. I do know it was rebuilt only 5 years ago
and has been sitting in a garage the last 3 years. About 10000 miles on engine.
Most likely a hard 10k. The engine run great when I took it out. It also
has a Muncie 4 speed transmission. I may sell this separately.  Is there any
way I can tell what type of Muncie this is M21,M22? All this came out of a 
1969 Chevelle and was dragged regularly. The engine and tranny were set up
to go (and it would). So does anyone have any ideas or do you need more info?
I am just looking for a ball park figure. Thanks in advance...
      

Rich Bryant

    As this is a recent re-start of this conference, I guess this is the
    best place for now (after viewing the dir - moderator, feel free to
    move as appropriate).
    
    I have a 66 SS396 Chevelle and have gone thru my second set of plugs.
    The first set were AC R44Xl's and seemed to have lasted about 7K
    miles (assume these were in the engine from rebuild). They were
    pretty heavily fouled with deposits. I repalced them with Champion
    NY13's that lasted about 4K miles before they became fouled.
    
    Now, as it has been some years, I'd like to tweak my memory and those
    of you other noters to help me select my next set of plugs.
    
    If I recall, basic point ignition systems 7-10K miles may have been
    the norm. Electronic ignition (of which my 66 has) should get me
    up to about 15K on a set of plugs. Now with the poorer octane and
    non-leaded fuels, as well as the less frequent driving (more sunny
    day, cruise and show trips) all contribute to the build of deposits,
    so these numbers are most likely high.
    
    My questions become:
    
         a: What plugs do I have to choose from (assume temp range plays
            a significant factor).
    
         b: What milage would expect from the various plugs that will
            work.
    
    Thanks in advance for all your suggestions and input....

    before the plugs have a chance to foul, you should yank them and
    inspect the color on them.  Champion, among others, has a chart showing
    plugs and the colors on them and if it means you should use a hotter or
    colder plug.  Tan is ideal.  White might mean too hot.  I really can't
    recall.
    So it will be trial and error if you have a non-stock engine.
    Matt

    re.3
    
    Thanks Matt,
    
    I plan on getting the hottest Autolite (405's I think) and do just as
    you suggest. I figure it best to start at one end and with the rebuild
    done to the higher performance 375HP configuration, I expect the hot
    end is the place to start.
    
    George!

    Maybe you can find a similar engine that was a stocker at one time and
    see what was specified for that.  Or find someone who had built a
    similar engine and see what they use.  And that would be a good
    starting place too.
    Matt

    
      George,
    
    I wouldn't start with the hottest plug availible.  The potential for
    serious engine damage is too great.  It sounds like you already know
    what number plug is slightly too cold, so go one (or maybe two) heat
    range(s) hotter and try that.  If you can get a copy of the Champion
    plug reading chart do so, and remember, plugs are a whole lot cheaper
    than new pistons.  
    
    If you decide to use the cross-reference charts to cross from 
    Champion or AC to Autolite, remember that these charts are not 
    necessarily exact.  The cross-reference may be a heat range off 
    in either direction.
    
    If I get a chance I will go and look at the plugs in my big block,
    and let you know what number they are.
    
    Tom
    

	I am in the process of rebuilding a 454 for my boat.  This is a jet so
the engine spends most of its time at 3000 to 4000 rpm.  WOT is about 5300 rpm.
I am doing a basically stock rebuild using good parts.  The cam is an Isky
grind with 280 duration 560 lift.  Which leads me to my question. The local
speed shops say I should run roller rocker arms even though this is a hydraulic
cam.  This sounds like a good idea to me except they want $180.00 for a set. 
Are they worth the money?  I saw Competition Cams has roller rockers for around
$120.00 although they don't have a roller pivot.  How do they compare?  I seems
stange to me that I can't live without these when to boat has run since '79
with the stamped steel rockers.  

Thanks for you help,

Ron 

    Roller rockers seem like a bit of overkill for a boat that only cranks
    at 5300 rpm. If your boat is like any of the other big block powered
    jet boats that I've ridden in, the jet itself will limit your top
    speed, rather than the engine. (Unless you've got a huge pump!) The
    ones I've been in, the engine could put out way more power than the jet
    could transfer into forward motion. The jet just didn't seem to load
    the engine down enough.
    
    Bottom line is, the roller rockers may buy you just a bit of power from
    frictional losses, and more accurate valve timing. I've heard that they
    don't last as long as the stock rockers though. 
    
    Harry
    

    
      Ron,
    
    What do the old stamped steel rocker arms look like now?  Can you see
    noticeable wear on the end that pushed on the valve?  How about the
    center pivot area?  Are there signs of dis-coloration and carbon
    build-up on the rocker arm?  Are any of the pivot balls scored?  
    If you see any of these signs, the roller rockers  would probably 
    be a good idea.
    
    I had all four problems with the stamped steel rockers in my engine 
    before I rebuilt it.  I decided to use roller rockers on the engine 
    and have eliminated all four problems.  
    
    In my opinion, the roller tipped (only) rockers are not intended for 
    heavy duty use.  Get the type that has a roller tip and a roller pivot.  
    
    As for prices, check the ads carefully in Popular Hot Rodding or
    Super-Chevy magazines.  The strongest roller rockers availible are the
    stainless steel type like Crower and several others  market.  They 
    are expensive though, about $300.  In a direct side-by-side
    comparison with the $180 price range, they have noticably larger
    center pivot bearings, and tip bearings.  
    
    Tom
    

  I entered some replies in the old version of musclecars about some
problems I was having with valve lash on my 427.  Writing reply 20.9 
reminded me that I haven't updated the story yet.

  To recap, I was having very excessive wear, about .010" in 100 miles or 
so of operation.  The engine has a Schneider roller cam, 234 degrees duration 
at .050 lift, .595 total lift.  

  I went through a lot of different combinations trying to prove what part
or parts were inferior.  Turns out none of them are.  I made a serious error
when I built the engine.  Popular knowledge (don't ya just love that term?)
has it that a big block chevy running solid lifters should have the lifter
oil galleries restricted to prevent over-oiling the valve train, and flooding
the area under the valve cover.  What I didn't know was that Schneider makes 
their roller lifters in such a way that the lifters provide the restriction.
I installed gallery restrictors, so I had more restriction than I needed.

  With the gallery restrictors in place only four of the 16 rockers were 
getting any oil at all, and only one of the four was getting enough oil.   
With the gallery restrictors removed, all of the rockers are getting oil.  
I've run the engine without the gallery restrictors long enough now to be 
fairly sure the problem is solved.  I can't measure any valve lash change in 
about 300 miles.  The only parts that appear to be ruined are two pushrods, 
and one rocker arm pushrod socket.  To be safe, I sent the rockers back to 
Crower to have all of the pushrod sockets replaced, and the rollers checked. I 
am also going to install a new set of pushrods.  

  Many people say roller rockers don't last very long.  I wonder if 
insufficient oiling is the reason?

Tom

I believe the advice originally given by the speed shop was given because
of the valve lift specs, and, secondarily, becase boat use is heavy-duty
use. With .560 lift, there will be more rubbing friction on the valve tips,
and more side thrust on the guides, potentially leading to undue wear in
both areas.

Since this doesn't sound like really heavy-duty use, and the standard rockers
didn't fail, I believe you can go with what you have. Alternatively, the Comp
Cams roller-tip rockers will solve the potential wear problems without banging
the pocketbook too hard. Full roller rockers would undoubtedly be better if
you were turning, say, 6500+ rpm, for reasons already mentioned in previous
replies.

Bruce

        I asked  the  same  question  to  a  friend  of  mine  and he
        mentioned  something about `girdles'.  Whether they be  valve
        guide  girdles or rocker stud girdles, I'm not sure,  but  he
        said  that  they  were in the Summit racing catalog for  like
        half  the  price of a set of roller rockers, and that  they'd
        work just  as well.  He also mentioned something about roller
        rockers being better  for  a  higher rev application.  Sounds
        like this may do you just as well. . .
        
        RE: .560/.595 durations
        
        YIKES !  You  must  have  some serious heads on those motors.
        I'll be getting about $1000+/- worth of head work done on the
        403CID  in  the Trans Am with larger diameter valves,  larger
        springs,  etc.,  but  the  largest duration I'll see is about
        .510 with a 290 lift.
        
        Matt

Forget girdles. They're for high rpm valve train rigidity at really high
lifts (meaning massive opening and closing rates).

Matt, the .560 number is *lift*, not duration. Your 403 heads are basically
from the Olds 350, so, unlike big-block heads from Chevy, Ford, etc., they've
been optimized for lower lift numbers.

Bruce

        RE: -.1
        
        Oh well. . .never said I was a mechanic. :^)
        
        Thanks. . .
        
        Matt_a_systems_hardware_geek_! 

Thanks for all the quick replies.

RE 20.8

I have to agree with you on the overkill for the full roller rockers.  I think
the local speed shop owners see a trip to Hawaii every time I walk in...  I'm
not sure if I agree with you on the jet being the limiting factor.  There is a
very noticable change in speed when you increase RPM by 100.  I am sure there
is a point where the jet cannot pump any more water regardless of power added
but it's not at 5300 RPM.  I have seen this same type of jet run at 6500 which
made a very fast boat.  It seems to me that the faster I turn the jet the more
water I will pump (to a point).  All this a side, I'm not into racing so I think
I will spend my money on fuel for skiing rather than just going fast.  However,
I will spend money to make it dependable.  The last thing I want is to get to
the lake and have a broken boat...... 

RE 20.9

The original rockers don't "look" bad.  The tips look like they have been used
but there are no ridges that I can feel.  The pivot balls and sockets seem OK
also.  Unless there is scoring, how do I know if they are worn out?  These
pivot balls are smooth.  I have seen pivot balls with channels in them (for
better oiling?).  Maybe I should use these balls with my old rocker arms.  One
other question, at what lift do I need to use the long slot rockerarms to stop
rockerarm to stud contact? 

RE 20.11

Does Comp Cams make good stuff?  I saw an ad for Crane Cams in Hot Rod that was
making all kinds of accusations that Comp Cams subcontracts all the work out
and that they don't build anything themselves....  The roller tip idea makes
good sense to me.  I will be getting the block and heads back from the machine
shop today.  They mentioned that all the valve guides were worn out. Which
didn't surprise them since they came from a boat. 

Thanks again,

Ron 

      Ron,
    
    Whatever you do, don't put new pivot balls in the old rockers. 
    Guaranteed to fail.  Mixing used pivot balls and rocker arms is also 
    not good.  In both cases there is too much loading on the surfaces for 
    the parts to seat in to each other.  If the old pivot balls aren't scored 
    and the rockers aren't discolored, you probably won't have a problem using
    them again.  The only way I know of to tell if they are worn out is
    the try-it-and-see method...  If you can set the valve lash once, then
    run the whole season without having to re-adjust the lash, they aren't worn
    out.  (this assumes hydraulic lifters, if you had solid lifters the
    lash would have to be reset after the valves seated in)  I suppose a 
    metalurgy lab could test the old rockers to see if there is any of the 
    hardened surface remaining, but that would probably cost more than a new 
    set of rockers.   
    
    From memory, I think the stock lift on the factory high performance big
    block cams was .550", so I don't think .560" will cause you to need
    long slot rockers.  You didn't mention what lift you were running
    before the rebuild, is that known?
    
    One of the main benefits of the roller tip on a rocker arm is reduction
    or elimination of valve guide wear.  Since you don't have evidence of
    overloading the pivots in the stock rocker arms the Comp Cams roller
    tipped rockers would probably be a good investment.  
    
    I wouldn't worry about Comp Cams "contracting out" their parts. (if in
    fact they do)  Many high performance equipment vendors do it.  I believe the
    stainless rockers I bought from Crower were made by TRW, who also makes
    them for other vendors.  Crane is one of the few companies large 
    enough to afford all of the machines and machinists necessary to make 
    everything they sell.  (And it wouldn't surprise me if they contract
    out some parts)
    
    I have heard that synthetic oils will reduce valve train wear
    considerably.  After the rings are seated in, your application sounds 
    like the perfect place for synthetic oil.  High load, high RPM, for 
    extended periods of time.
    
    

    Tom

Tom,

I decided to go with the full roller rocker now instead of putting marginal
parts in a new engine.  I figured if they reduce the friction/oil temp then
they should help the engine in the long run. 

The original cam was a Crane Fireball 300.  I don't know what specs are
since I didn't install it.  I have been told that cam is no longer available.  

I think I will look into synthetic oil.  I have been running 30w with what 
seems to be OK results.  

By the way, I got the engine back in the boat over the weekend and it runs
great.  Thanks for the help. 

Ron

     Hello you BIG BLOCK FANS, I've got a problem.
    
    I'm in the process of building an 80' CAMARO. Everybody I talk to 
    tell's me to go BIG BLOCK except for one person. He tell's  me to 
    stay with the small block.
    
     The reason I'm consultin you guy's is I need more opinions. What I
    want to do with the car is:: It's going to be a non-daily driver, I 
    want to show it, and I want to run it down the asphalt. I'd like to 
    get a high 10 to low 11 sec 1/4 out of it.
    
    So heres the ?. Can I get what I want out of the small block? Or should
    I take everybody's advise and go BIG BLOCK???
    
    Any and all thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks, 
    Mike......

    
    What's wrong nobody has any idea's!!!!!
    Mike..........

Mike, it's just not a very useful question.

You can go high tens with either. It would require a higher state of tune
with the small block, and resulting higher engine stresses, but it would
be a satisfying feeling to have a 10 ten-second small block in a heavy Camaro.

It's an easier job with a big block, which will not only make more power, but
make more power *per cubic inch* than the small block. The major issue with
the big block would be driveline stresses rather than engine stresses.

So, it's six of one, and a half-dozen of the other. Whatever appeals to you
is what you should do. Either motor would be a race motor, so forget general
street driveability, but the small block would be a *RACE* motor, if you
catch my drift.

Either way, you'd better bring some *serious* money to the party.

Bruce

PS - If it were me, I'd be going with the big block, but that's mainly
because I knew that if I went high tens, I'd start pining away for the
*mid* tens soon, and then...........

    OK, Here's somemore on the subject.
     If I stay with the small block I was thinking of a stroker or blowing
    a 350.. The 383 will give me some good low end torque and some good
    rev's..Correct?? Then the blower or supercharged 350 will give me well
    :^) a big one... 
    Which out of chevy's big three is the better 350,400,orSTRK 383 ?
    I was reading an article in HR and they said a 383 was a waste of
    time and money..Is it??
    
    Personally I like the sound of a BIG BLOCK 80'CAMARO in the work's.
    
    So let's talk BIG BLOCK now.. 396,427,or 454 ??
    I had a stock 396 in a SS chevelle and it was pretty mean..but I
    still hear bad thing's aboput 396's.. I'm still not sure..
    
    Thank's for the comment's
     Mike...
    
    P.S. I know what you mean about getting lower e/t's!!!!!!!!
     

    
      Mike,
    
    Is the '80 Camaro front end set up like a '74 Camaro?  The '74 has
    a partial frame that is connected to the rest of the body.  It also
    has ball joints and doesn't have rack and pinion steering.  The reason
    I ask is that I don't personally believe Macpherson struts, rack and
    pinion steering, and full uni-body construction will stand up to the 
    weight and power output of a big block.  I have been known to be wrong
    about these things...
    
    As far as engine size goes, my personal favorite set up for a big-block
    is as follows:  427 or 454 block, with 427 crank and rods because they 
    are made of steel, unlike the 454 crank and rods.  The 396 crank and
    rods were also made of steel, but you may have problems getting the 
    crankshaft counter weights to clear the 454 blocks.  Another reason
    I prefer the 427 crank is that the 427 engines are internally balanced
    while the 454 engines are externally balanced.  Not really a problem if
    you get a complete running 454, as everything you need is there, but it
    can be fun trying to piece together all of the parts from scratch.  
    
    If you do decide to build a 454, remember to put a rev limiter on it!  
    The iron crank will not stay together very long if it is continually
    subjected to engine speeds above 5500 rpm.  With the way big blocks
    rev, it is a good idea to install a rev limiter on any big block, but
    it must be considered mandatory for any engine with the iron crank. 
    FWIW, there were steel 454 cranks, but they are very scarce, and I have
    not heard to many good things about them...  I have heard they break more
    often than the iron cranks.  Different alloy than the 396/427 crank or
    something.
    
    If you are planning to build a "mostly street" machine that will turn in 
    the 1/4 mile times you mentioned in a previous reply, I would stay with the 
    factory cast iron heads.  At near sea level altitude, you should
    be able to use the oval port heads.  Hardened exhaust seats, stainless 
    valves, mild porting and polishing, and port matching to the intake
    manifold, will yield a very potent and reliable package.  
    
    Factory rectangle port heads are kind of hard to find, and aren't cheap
    when you do find them.  They are cheaper than the aftermarket aluminum
    heads though.  Both of these really aren't necessary unless you are
    planning to build a track only, non-streetable race car.
    
    Tom
    
    P.S.  A *very good* book to purchase is titled "How to Hot Rod Big
    Block Chevies".  It will give you casting numbers, do's and don'ts,
    and lots of other tips.  It is usually availible in speed shops, and
    I have seen it occaisonally in the Chevy dealer's parts department.  It
    is published by H.P. Books.  I don't remember the author's name.   
    

Hi-po 454s have forged steel cranks, as do *all* hi-po rat motors. This is
not a car to be built from some lo-po junkyard motor, however. At the very
least, you should find a hi-po motor in good condition, which is likely to
cost a lot, or, plunk your money down on an LS-7 from Chevrolet. This motor
has all the best parts, 12.5:1 compression, and a *very* good cam. All for
$2795.00 plus shipping, direct from Detroit. Since you want a 10 second 3900
pound car, and aren't worried about street use, this is the way to start.
The 454 will work just a tad better than the 427 with all this weight, and
the 427 just a tad better than the 396.

You should probably run a race-only Turbo 400 in the car, or possibly a
race-only 5000-stall Powerglide, in which case you can probably get away with
a professionally prepared GM 12 bolt rear. A Ford 9 inch would be better,
though.

I think you're going to need to tub the car to get into the tens.

Bruce

PS - If you decide to use a small block, forget everything about 350, 383
or 400. You will absolutely *need* to start with a Bow Tie block, and you
will *need* a forged race crank from the Bow Tie folks, or others. You can
design the thing for the cubes you want, but *forget about* production
engines.

They'll blow up at the kind of power and rpm levels you need to make to get
into the tens.

    
      Mike,
    
    Bruce is right, the LS-7 is probably the least expensive way to where
    you want to go.  It can be run "as-is" the way it is delivered from
    the factory.  I wouldn't, but that is up to each purchaser.  For racing
    use the only thing the LS-7 needs IMHO, is a quick check of all clearances,
    and the addition of a "blue-printed" Melling high volume oil pump.  For
    street use, I'd consider lowering the compression ratio to 10.5 or so
    as well.
    
    I decided that I could build an engine for less money than I would
    pay for a LS-7.  Boy, was I wrong.  If I had it to do over, I'd go with 
    the LS-7, and spend the difference on one of those trick TPI systems...
    :-)
    
    
    Tom

    Well guy's I think your both right!! I have been thinking about the
    LS-7 for a while..Last night I came to the conclusion that it's time!!
    
    Yeah Tom the car is set up like the older ones it will drop right in!
    The only thing's that I'll have to do is Mickey a p/s pump a cross mem.
    for the th400.
    
    Anymore Ideas on the LS-7 80'CAMARO job would be appreciated.
    Thanks again,
    Mike....
    
    P.S. Bruce, With that I think I can beat #1 son!!
    

     The big block for my "boat"is almost done..They had it on the dyno 
    and faxed me the results.. Needless to say I am getting excited. For
    those that do not not remember from the old notes file it is a 588 C.I.
    4.562 bore and 4.5 stroke, Carillo rods, Crower crank, J & E forged
    pistons (9.1), Dart Alum heads, Crane roller cam, Dart full port Alum 
    Manifold, holley 1050, and runs on REGUlAR gas,,,for what its worth the
    dyno results were correcte for 29.92 inches Hg, 60 F dry air, these are
    some of the results.
    
     Speed     Torque    HP     cfm
      rpm      lb-ft      
    
     4000       660.1   506.7   599.2
     4500       679.3   582.0   698.5
     5000       698.6   698.3   873.9
     5500       690.4   742.1   973.3
     6000       668.3   783.5  1011.4
    
    those of you familiar with dyno printout know there is alot more data
    but I am very happy with 783 hp on pump regular gas...Should be a real
    screamer..
    
    Jim
    

    OhMyGawd!!!
    
    Harry
    

    Yeah, but 1289 h.p. sounds a little better... Let me explain.
    Alcohol injected 562 alum. big block @ 8400. This is the motor that
    is in the 4X4 puller that I sponser. It was exciting to get the results
    from Dale Hall (Conn. Engine builder) 
    
    Congrats on some impressive hp/tq. numbers from pump gas and a carb.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
     Sounds like plenty to me. Unfortunately, it costs big bucks
    to make that much HP/Torque...  They way I figure it, you might
    have just spent $11.50 per H.P. Out of my $$$ range.
    
     Good luck and go fast.
    
     Scott

    Scotty why don't you stop by the Westfield Fair for the 4X4 pulls.
    Rick will show you some liguid money=cubic H.P.    (Aug)
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    Re: The Mad Weldor....Jim,
    
         The type fuel to use was actually the biggest problem...Alot of
    solutions would have been cheaper and maybe easier but would have
    required lots of boost (6-71 or turbo's) or compression all of which
    means av-gas or Cam2 or alk..Unfortunately none of which are easily
    obtainable at a marina..The second issue was reliability..The best
    solution "for me" was cubes..The motor has a full year parts and labor
    warrantee..Having an alum stroker I am sure you realise Scott was way 
    light in his Cubes=H.P.=$$$$ scenario..I would love to see your 4X4
    an will be in the Boston area early Sept..Any chance of tieing up..??.
    
    Jim

    re-1
    We have some pulls scheduled in Sept. but I'm not sure where they are.
    I'll be seeing Rick soom and I'll try to send you some info.
    
    For general information this is how we use the Big Block. (yes
    folks, I am associated with a chevy powered vehicle)
    The puller is a 1955 chevy two door handyman station wagon. The
    chassis is the original 55 frame with a solid mount F700 ford rear.
    the front is a 5 ton military with leaf springs. There is 3"x3" steel
    tube reinforcement front to rear to keep things straight. (this
    winter's project is a chrome moly tube chassis front to rear.) It's
    called Summertime Blues and and is covered with $5k custom paint job.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
    I am looking for some feedback.
    
    I'm going to be putting a LS-7, bored .30 over with dome pistons,
    into a 1965 Olds Cutlass.
    
    My question is will it bolt up to existing motor mounts????
    
    I was told the 65's are all the same frames, and positioning
    of the frame mounted motor mounts.
    
    Any feedback would be appreciated.
    
    
    Art
    

    You will have to get a set of frame mounts from a Chevelle. The bolt
    holes in your frame should be in the correct location to bolt them right
    in.
    
    I put a chevy small block into a 64 goat (GTO) and that's all it
    took to do the swap. The cross member lined up perfectly with the
    tranny mount.
    
    Peter
    

    
    
    Thanks Peter, I'll start looking for motor mounts now.
    
    
    
    Art

    re .35
    Art,  
    	You mentioned "motor mounts".  Peter said frame mounts.  The frame
    mounts attach to the frame and the motor mounts go on the frame mounts.
    You will need a set of both.
    
    Regards, John
    

    .Art, one more thing. The frame mounts can be out of a newer than 
    65 chevelle. 66 and 67 should be ok, maybe even newer than that. 
    To be safe, they should probably come out of a big block car. I'm 
    sure big block frame mounts will accomodate small block motor mounts 
    but I don't know if it will work the other way around. The rubber/steel
    motor mounts for a big block may have been a little beefier than the
    ones used on a small block. The bolt pattern for the motor mount on 
    the side of the block (big and small) is the same for both.
    
    Peter
    

    
    Thanks again Peter, I've located some Malibu's, El Caminos right here
    in Hudson. I'll be taking a trip over to them Wednesday. Hope I find
    some.
    
    
    
    Art

    
    Well, I found some motor mounts in a 65 Impalla. I beleive they are
    for the 8cyl. The Impalla next to it had a 6cyl in it and the motor
    mounts were centered. On the ones I took out mounts to the frame the
    same way but the actual mount is set forward.
    
    Do these sound like they are it??
    
    
    Art

    I don't think you got the right mounts......the ones you want(ed)
    should have come out of a chevelle/malibu body. You might be lucky and
    the ones you got may fit, but I doubt it. See if they will bolt up to
    you frame without having to drill new holes and then take some
    measurments from the tranny mount to the motor mount and see if its the
    same as the number you get when you measure the motor and tranny assembly.
    
    Peter

    
    I'm don't think they will work now either. They do line right up to
    existing holes but a trip to another yard, I saw same ones with a six
    on it. This yard had some elcamino's and chevelles w/ mounts so I'll
    get then also and try them when the time comes
    
    
    Thanks Peter
    
    
    
    Art

    Art,
    
    I think that the ones for the big blocks are shorter than the small
    block ones. I am using small block mounts in my race '67 Camaro but they
    make the motor sit about an inch to high. That causes clearance
    problems with the headers and the top of the transmission. The ones in
    my factory 396 Camaro are about 2" tall.
    
    
    db

    
    Thanks Peter, I'll keep that in mind when I go to the junk yard. 
    Keep you informed.
    
    
    Thanks
    
    Art

    	Need some help from any 409 "guru's" out there.  I'm going to look
    at a car that has a 409 in it that I really don't want.  The guy
    selling it doesn't want to sell the car w/o the motor, and I have very
    little recall of what to look for in 409's.
    
    	The motor is a '65 400 horse originally, w/ slightly bigger carbs,
    690 (big valve) heads, a cam a little hotter than the Z11?, and other
    possible? goodies.  
    	I would sell the engine complete, water pump to bell housing
    (clutch included)......but I need an approximate idea of what it should
    be worth, and what I should ask if it has in it.  A couple of folks
    that I've talked to in the last few weeks have said anywhere between
    $2000 and $4500 dollars.
    
    	I realize that 409 motors/parts are in short supply, but really
    don't have a good feel for the demand or the value (especially the
    different variations), other than the '62  409 seems to be the most
    desired.
    
    		If anyone out there can give me an approximate idea or
    	background info on this, I'd really appreciate it.  Either here in
    	this note, sent to Druid::George, or a phone call to DTN 232 2247
    	or 508 582-4049 (home).
    
    			Thanks for any assistance
    
    				Steve George

    
    
    I notice there has not been much action in this note for some time and
    unfortunately for me, I have a sad tale to add.
    
    While driving my 66 chevelle SS396 to work last Friday, it had a Heart
    Attack (pun intended for those who know me).
    
    Shifting from 2nd - 3rd at about 35 mph (luckily for me I wasn't on
    it), I hear a WHAM, followed by a rythmic THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.. etc.
    Knowing the clatter sound of valves, I immediately suspected Piston
    or Rod.
    
    We have looked at the top end (rocker-rollers/push-rods/valves) and
    find everything to be tight and solid. So expect a low-end problem.
    I've been told that the engine tear down to determine damage extent
    is the nearest thing to a total rebuild as you get. Rather than
    repairing only damaged cylinder (suspect just one), it is suggested
    to go all out new parts (low end - pistons, rings, ???) at about
    $2500 for rebuild (not including pulling or replacing engine).
    
    Opinions/comments desired from the experts in this notesfile.
    
    Thanks in advance - George....

    
    Do the valves move when the engine turns over? I could be a broken
    timing chain (or gear). Could be you only need to replace top end
    parts. Try hitting the starter with a valve cover removed. Even if they
    do move check the timing, the gear could have jumped a tooth or two and
    the valves are hitting the pistons. Does this sound like the voice of
    experience? Yup it is....
    
    later
    
    Don B
    

    
    re: .45
    
    George,
    
    From the description you gave of the sounds the engine made, I'd
    also guess the engine has a broken piston, or connecting rod.  Hopefully
    it is the former, as that tends to do less damage to the rest of the
    engine than a broken connecting rod does.
    
    The only way to be sure what is wrong is to pull the pan off, which
    in your car means the engine must be lifted (best to remove the engine
    completely) to get enough clearance to remove the pan.  Once the pan is
    off, the damage should be easy to spot.  If the crank and block aren't
    damaged, it is possible to just replace the broken parts, and save 
    a lot of money.  Unless the engine has a lot of miles on it, (over 50k)
    this may be the way to go.  If you do decide to replace just the broken 
    parts, it is a good idea to check the clearances on all of the main 
    bearings and connecting rod bearings.
    
    Have you drained the oil yet?  Check for metal particles and flakes in
    the drained oil.  That may give you an idea how much damage has been done.
    
    Hoping it's something inexpensive,
    
    Tom
    

    re: .46 & .47
    
    Thanks for the thoughts....
    
    1st - we have pulled the valve covers and run the engine. All top end
    appears fine. We did not look at the timing, but other indicators of
    bad timing chain were not evident (mind you, this is not my experience
    so I don't recall exactly what those were from my helpers).
    
    So we are pretty confident on the piston or rod ourselves. I have
    talked with others who also suggest attempting to lift engine within
    the car and pull pan (I agree correct and easiest is to pull engine)
    and have not ruled this out. Someone also suggested pulling plugs
    to see if I could at least identify which cylinder. My understanding
    is #1 cylinder is the toughest to get at and only way is with engine
    apart from vehicle. So I may at least attempt a look see first.
    
    I talked with rebuilder again and got better definition around total
    rebuild (worse case) vs repair of damaged part(s). As he had thought
    I said 50K vs 15K miles on rebuilt engine, he strongly suggested total
    rebuild. Now that he understands it's only 15K, he suggests a best
    case savings of about $700-800 to just replace damaged part(s).
    
    Although still not chicken feed, it sure could help. Unfortunately
    the true quote does not come until after the dis-assembly at which
    point I'm basically committed.
    
    Again, thanks for your thoughts. I have some serious thinking to go
    through. It's not a case of getting it fixed as much as when (now or
    in another 3 yrs when my son finishes college and hopefully some
    level of sanity around job security is restored).
    
    George!

    
      George,
    
    If you do any more trouble shooting, try to run the engine as little as
    possible.  Preferably not at all.  Even if it is only a broken 
    piston, the hammering is doing more damage.  
    
    Did you happen to notice if the oil pressure remained at normal 
    readings after the knocking started?  If it did, there may not be 
    any bearing damage.
    
    Tom
    

    I don't have exact prices or engine models, but from ads I see
    in some of the car mags, I think there are Chevy dealers who will
    sell you a *brand new* high perf. rat motor short block for well 
    under $2500.
    
    A new GM short block and a weekend spent with a couple buddies, 
    with you supplying the beer may be the way to go...
    
    Rick

    Rich,
    I recently called a bunch of check dealers looking for the crate
    engine.  The only BBC you can get is the 454 in the SS Pickem up.
    I tried getting the LS-7, no dice - build your own time.
    
    I wonder if the damage suffered in prior note was in fact a spun
    bearing.  I lost a motor once and heard the same trype of noise.
    Was the THUMP THUMP sound like taking a big pot and smacking it
    with a metal spoon?  Then again, the last motor I lost put up
    a smoke screen ala nascar style.  The oil dripping out of the pipes
    confirmed that what I DID hear WAS expensive :*(
    
    Mike

    Opps to .51, the check DEALERS are really chevy dealers.
    I was thinking about what else I write wehn discussing engines.
    Mike

    Re: past few...
    
    I understand and agree about not starting/running engine with damage
    as it can cuase more. Had to do it a few times to get idea of what
    may be wrong.
    
    I did get a look at oil pressure at one of re-starts. It was normal
    and no (or maybe little) smoke. However, run times were short (even
    when it 1st happened. I shut down within 2 sec. In fact, that was
    probably the shortest run time).
    
    I have also found references to 454's, but not 396's. Lots of ads
    for re-build anything. Also, it is not clear (to me anyway) whether
    price is for block ($1500-2000) or complete running engine ($2500-
    $3000).
    
    Good old notesfile and club association (MAAC = Maynard Area Auto
    Club) have been great in offering assistance. Even was able to locate
    a engine hoist and stand within a block of me. I may learn more about
    the low end yet!!!! I'm still deciding which route I want to take,
    but $$$ sure weight the scales toward at least pull and tear down
    myself to assess damage. If I get that far, I should be able to get
    it back together, but remember - almost anyone can do that. The trick
    is if it works properly afterward.
    
    Thanks - George...

George,

Since it sounds like you have the use of a hoist and an engine stand and not
alot of $$$) why not rebuild the engine yourself?  Do you have a place to do 
the work?

All you need are a few tools and some knowledge.  Get the machine work done
at your favorite machine shop, order the parts, and have at it.

I built my first engine (for my V8 Vega) about a year ago and it really is not
hard to do at all.  You just need to be meticuluous in checking clearances and
have EVERYTHING as clean as humanly possible.  If you wanted to do the rebuild 
yourself I recommend reading How To Hotrod Your Big Block Chevy How To Rebuild
Your Big Block Chevy. 

I read the smallblock version of both books asked alot of questions at a local
speedshop (Lanier's), and then went out to the garage and did it.

Mark 

Have an interesting question that needs somebody with better knowledge of
chevy motors than I.

Motor serial in a car I have is V1217CJK.
The one and only book I have (Motor 1974 37th edition) says this is a 
1969 396 cu. in. with the turbo hydramatic. Further on it lists three
different HP ratings for this motor (325, 350, and 375).

Two questions.
1. did I read the serial number right?
2. If I did - how do I figure out which hp motor I have?

thanks,
/jon

Well, someone with "the book" can probably nail this for sure, but the
375 hp engine has square port heads, a Holley carb, and solid lifters.
You already know if you have solid lifters; the sibilant ticking noise
(music to my ears) is a dead giveaway.

The 325 and 350 engines were oval-port, hydraulic lifter models. I *think*
that the 325 hp engines got a Rochester Quadrajet (tiny 1 3/8ths primaries,
and huge 2 1/4 secondaries) while the 350 hp engines got a Holley, with
primaries only slightly smaller than secondaries.

Bruce

    
    If you call your local Chevy parts counter and ask him nicley to look
    in the "Thru 75" book he can tell you exactly what engine you have. I
    believe that 3 letter codes for engines began later in 1970. The "Thru
    75" book is all the part numbers for cars manufactured before 1975. It
    has the codes to identify engines, transmissions, rear ends or just
    about anything that is coded from Chevrolet. If you still need help
    drop me a note and I will look it up in my Thru 75.
    
    Don
    

    re: .55
    
    i found the CJK code in one of my books at home.   the CJK motor is a
    350 cu. in. 330hp motor out of a 1971 corvette.  it is 9.0:1
    compression and had a 4bbl with th400.

    It should be fairly  easy to identify whether you have small block or
    big block. Big block valve covers look *HUGE* in comparison to the
    small block ones. :-)
    
    Harry
    

    Hi Muscle buffers,
    
    Again it's been some time since activity in this Chevy Big Block
    file.
    
    I have some update to my 396 woes (note 20.45) and need input,
    suggestions, comments that this forum offers...
    
    As you may recall, I broke down on Rt 2 with a WHAM, WHAM, WHAM..
    
    Well, the engine is all in pcs in my garage and cellar. Looks like
    I SWALLOWED a valve........ #6 cylinder has pcs of metal welded to
    piston head and sure enough, a large segment of the exhaust value
    (smaller of the valves - right) for that cylinder is missing. Also
    noted small pcs on piston #7.
    
    Both cylinder walls appear scored. Might get away with honing, but
    only QUOTES (read $$$) will tell.....
    
    So, I intend to start rounds for 2 or 3 quotes for machine work at
    least and maybe re-assy (if guaranteed). Also need to assess these
    quotes against other alternatives. If anyone is aware of running
    396's for sale, please let me know.....
    
    This is not an original block, so re-build of it is not the only
    solution for me.....
    
    My wife asked me if we could make it a pedal car for energy conser-
    vation while waiting for new/repaired engine. I thought my bike was
    tough peddling up hill ;^).....
    
    George!

    Another bit of info for those of you with the books on engines...
    
    The following are all the numbers I could find on the engine:
    
    
        03/29/93: Reviewed all engine identification #'s and noted as
    follows:
                    - GM4 CONVT 3955272 P (Bell Housing End).
                    - HI-PER PASS F (Bell Housing end - tooled in).
                    - Crank Shaft "U" Brkts (Stamped and Tooled in).
                        o 210 GM 884-
                        o 212 GM 884 \__ w/"<---- F"
                        o 214 GM 884 /     pointing to front of engine
                        o 215 GM 884-
                    - CE961979 (Front - Left Head Lip).
                    - GM3T; HI PERF; 8919840 (right) B28 8 (r-head).
                    - GM4T; ""  ""    " " "  (left)  F17 8 (l-head).
    
    
    I believe the "CE961979" is the actual block number. 2 things were
    not clear.
    
          - "CE" is not in my general repair book that identifies
            what the numbers mean. Could this be a "Canadian" Big
            Block?
    
          - The "1" & "7" in this same number are not definite.
            Actually they both appear to "1's", but they are
            physically different from each other. The 1st one
            has the line at the bottom, while the 2nd one does not.
    
    Any ideas welcome!!!
    
    George

    I believe "CE" is counter engine, meaning a replacement or over the
    counter purchase. 
    
    Chris

                    - CE961979 (Front - Left Head Lip).
		The "CE" is the prefix used for a parts dept. replacement
    	396 block, probably 4 bolt main. "CF" was used for 4 bolt 427
    	blocks. Someplace on the block there should be a casting date in
    	the form of A12 9. "A" being the month (in this case Jan), "12" the
    	day, and "9" the year. This will be found either on the bell
    	housing	flange or on the starter side of the block in the area of
    	the motor mount.		
    
                    - GM3T; HI PERF; 8919840 (right) B28 8 (r-head).
        	Rectangular port head cast Feb 28, 1968.
    
    	            - GM4T; ""  ""    " " "  (left)  F17 8 (l-head).
		Rectangular port head cast June 17, 1968.
    
    

    Howdy George, (.60)
    
    Not sure if your done with your motor, but I can sell you a
    brand new, built to my spec's 454 for roughly the same amount
    of $$$.  It goes REAL NICE.
    
    Mike

    re: .64
    
    Hi Mike,
    
    I'm still hopeful for a simple honing and buy parts for 2 cylinders.
    
    As I'm using help from others, it is going slowly (availability of
    folks and tools). Keep tuned.
    
    In fact, feel free to send me EMAIL at ROYALT::JOYG to give me an idea
    of "my spec's" on your 454. The real problem there is $$$ at the
    moment.
    
    I'm fortunate to be gainfully employed, but do have a money pit at
    the moment with #1 son in college.
    
    Thanks for others inputs on CE replacement block and head dates..
    
    George.

    Folks,
    
     I heard one of those "sickening sounds" come out of my ski boat 454
    this past week. Here's the senario:
    
     - boat was winterized last year, oil changed....
     - must not have drained quite all the water, when I opened it up this
       spring I have a freeze plug blown out in the center of the right
       side of the engine
    - changed the oil again, replaced the freeze plug, removed the plugs
      and cranked the engine... fine so far
    - replaced plugs, check tune-up parameters... all ok.
    - back the trailer into the water and it starts right up, all sounds 
      normal
    - warm it up fo 10-15 minutes and go for a ride
    - another 10 minutes of idle to 2000 rpm running and all is fine, oil
      pressure, temp, sound...
    - take it up to 2500 rpm .. ok, 3000 rpm ..ok, 3500 rpm....ok.... rap
      rap rap, shut it down quick
    
    The oil pressure and temp stayed fine at all times. The sound - muffled
    by the engine cover - sounds "low" in the engine, at crank speed, kind
    of like a ball peen hammer rapping on the block.
    
    I get back home, it cranks again, idles somewhat but starting to get
    stiff like it may sieze, still making noise. Again oil pressure was fine. 
    I then pulled it back on the trailer and started a little debug.
    
    - pulled the plugs, all fine except # 4 which is above where the freeze
    plug blew out. The electrode of the plug is pushed up into the bottom
    of the plug
    - have compression in all cylinders and all valves move as expected
    - there was some "water" that could have been condensation from the
    winter on the tops of the heads
    - I drained about 1/2 the oil and did not see the chocolate milk look
    in the oil from a bunch of water mixed in.
    
    I'm puzzled at the moment. My feelings are to replace the plugs and try
    to restart. If the block is cracked I'll need a new one anyway. If its 
    something else I'd like a better guess at it before doing major
    surgery. Any experience on collateral damage when a block loses a
    freeze plug? 
    
    BTW - getting the engine out of the boat is relatively simple, but I
    need to get it very high up in the air to remove it ( the side of the
    boat is about 5' high on the trailer ).
    
    Any suggestions on the next test or diagnosis would be appreciated. 
    
    Chuck - who wants to be skiiing. 

Chuck,

	Sorry to hear about your Malibu!

	The plugs were all gapped ok before you started it, then after
the rapping sound appeared #4 was mushed? Sounds like a broken or damaged
connecting rod, wrist pin, rod bearing or cap. Why is it broken or damaged? 
This is the tough part..... Did the ice damage just the noisy component?
Or did it crack the block and the friction of running the good piston in
the cracked block did in the rod/pin/piston/bearing.... can't be sure, but
it's gotta come apart anyway...

Good luck!

Rick

ps. I'll take you skiing, but it's a long day trip!

    
        Are we talking about *core plugs* here? No...they ain't put there
    in case you forget to use antifreeze. The core holes is where the
    casting sand is removed after the metal cools down. I have never seen a
    block come through O.K. after ice formed in the block or heads.
    Were the petcocks on the block left open so that the condensation could
    continue to drain during the winter?
        Anyway....sucks big time, however 454 blocks are fairly cheap.
    
    -john

    Folks,
    
     There are 3 2" diameter plugs along the bottom of the block, I've
    always call them freeze plugs. There are petcocks on both sides of the
    engine and they were both open. I even did the drive up and down a hill
    as suggested by Indmar ( the marinizing company ) to get more water to
    the petcocks. I guess I'll need to find a steeper hill or add
    antifreeze next year.
    
     I'm in the beginning stages of planning the rebirth. I've had a hard
    time owning up to it, but I think removing the engine is the next real 
    step. I think I'll need some type of A frame to pull the motor. My garage
    is plenty tall but the trusses are not set up for lifting. I don't think 
    I can get a cherry picker to lift  the engine up that high.
    
     I've called PAW, and they have a BB short block for about $2K - but
    with a month delay in their machine shop. RHS has a full long block for
    about $3500. Any other ideas on a source and price for a good quality 
    short block? The key parameters are:
    
     8.5 - 9.x compression, should run on 89 octane pump gas
     need good idle at 700-800 rpm for manuvering around docks and skiers
     skiings speeds ( meaning must have good throttle response ) from 2K to
     4K rpm
     4-4.5K rpm max operational speed is plenty
     the current engine, which I hope to use heads... is an '87 with
    slanted plugs.
    
    Thanks for any suggestions.
                        
     Chuck

    ...on pulling that engine...find a friendly bucket loader/backhoe
    operator and see if you can get 'em to yank it for you.
    
    You could get it all ready to pull and then just hitch up the chain and
    have the bucket pull it out and drop it in the back of your truck.
    
    Assuming you have a truck...
    
    /tb/
    

    
        A Targetmaster 454 shortblock is available over the counter at your
    local chevy dealer for $1798.00 and it even has a warranty.
    
    -john

    I don't think this is your problem but have you tried a new plug.  I
    have a 454 (540) in my race car.  Last year I was driving my car back
    to the trailer and I heard an awful sound like it was backfiring and it
    was shaking a bit.  A few people told me it sounded lousy on my last
    pass.  I checked to make sure the wires were on and it still sounded
    the same.  I then pulled all the plugs and sure enough one plug was
    closed up and smashed in. I grabbed a new plug and indexed it (made
    sure the electrode openning was faceing down).  Fired it up and the
    problem was gone.  Now I have a block that has been decked and my
    compression ratio is 14:1 so I'm on the edge to begin with.
    
    I would pull the plug and bring that piston up to the top and see if it
    looks close.  If so, index your plug and see what happens.  It's worth
    a shot!  I have myself and know a few other people who have had the
    freeze plugs pop out.  None of us have damaged our blocks.  After all
    the reson the freze plug is there (other then to get the sand out of
    the casting) is to pop out and save the block.   
    
    
    Phil

    I have a 454 complete, with 400 miles.  It's documented (all reciepts)
    on components which went into it.  I'd be willing to sell it as
    a short block.  It was in my Chevelle for several years and is now
    sitting in my garage as a spare for my Z/28 or for my Suburban.
    
    If you were to purchase it, you should tear it down and check it.  So 
    you'd  need a new gasket set for it, maybe rings and bearings just to be
    safe.  I had an ignition problem prior to taking it off the road.
    I suspect that my distributor was bunged up, but there's always a
    chance that I damaged the cam during the break in period.  I highly
    doubt it's the cam (which is a Comp Cams 270 duration/510 lift
    Summit # CCA-112073).
    
    This is an option while you're shopping.  Right now it's an expensive
    shop ornament for me.  You're on MSDOA so I may be able to deliver
    the engine if I don't have to drive over 400 miles.  
    
    MadMike
    Dawsonville Georgia.

    Folks,
    
     Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement. It was good to hear
    other people have lost freeze plugs and the blocks were ok.
     
    Digital has me on the road again this week so it will probably be Saturday
    before I get a chance to play again. Last night I looked at the oil I 
    drained out and still don't see any signs of water separating out. I'll 
    specifically look at the oil filter this week end to see if anything 
    collected there. I'm going to put in fresh oil and recheck the plugs
    and try to fire it up. I'll probably start it on the trailer - out of
    the water this time to hear the exhaust, its very garbled when
    underwater. 
    
     Any ideas on the GM Targetmaster components? The PAW kit will have 4
    bolt mains ( which I don't have now ) and forged pistons.
     
     The backhoe is a great idea, there is actually one down the street
    putting in a septic system. 
    
     Mike, I'm located about 30 miles north of Charlotte on Lake Norman
    (Mooresville for the Dale Earnhart fans).  Who knows, maybe a Coca Cola 
    600 ticket is worth delivery?
    
    Chuck
      

    
    >freeze plugs pop out. None of us have damaged our blocks.  After all
    >the reason the freeze plug is there (other than to get the sand out of
    >the casting) is to pop out and save the block.
    
        WRONG!  but it was good for a laugh.
    
    The reason the core plugs are there is because the engine is liquid
    cooled and the plugs keep the coolant from falling on the ground.
    These components were mis-named 50 years ago after the war when masses
    of people started vehicle ownership for the first time and had no clue
    as to proper maintenence, one of which was using anitfreeze.
        Typically a first good freeze would pop out the core plugs and
    leave joe and sally average wondering if any damage had been done.
    In those days, classes were actually taught by the factories on block
    and casting repair. Todays disposable society has done away with all of
    that. Some european exotics no longer have casting holes in the block
    and heads because they are using the "total loss foam" method of
    casting. Every-one else will soon follow.  Having an engine survive a
    water expantion freeze is just dumb luck. I have seen many a marine
    engine grenade itself to pieces left in the water too long after it
    should have been drydocked and drained. The core plugs did not save it.
    
    -john

    re: MSDOA::SCHMIDT
    
    I'll take a coke 600 ticket.  I'm going to the Winston, so maybe
    I can swing by (with or without the engine) and chitchat.  I can get
    you a winston ticket for $10 if your up to it.
    
    The TargetMaster deal from chevy is run of the mill.  it's what
    would replace a 454 truck engine.  Low compression, mild cam, basic
    pistons (not sure if they're forged or cast).
    
    The PAW motor may be overkill.  There is no need for you to spend extra
    for 4 bolt mains if you don't run the engine over 6 grand.  Then again,
    it's a boat and if you come out of the water and don't have a rev
    limiter on it, you may occasionally wind the motor up, so the
    4 bolts may be good insurance.  I'm not a boater, so I don't know if
    this happens or not to you.  I'd get the 4 bolt main if they tossed it
    in for free (ya, right) or if I was going to wind the motor up
    frequently.
    
    Your block is worth money, even if it's junk.  Call some salvage yards 
    and find out what the core charge on a block is.  $550?  

    Folks,
    
     I finally had a day in town not chasing my 2 year old... I looked at
    the oil filter and it did not have water in it. I drained the rest of
    the oil and did not see any water either. I guess the initial water I
    saw was from the condensation on top of the heads from over the winter.
    
    I put in fresh oil and a new filter. It cranked over with no plugs in
    it with no noise. I put the plugs in and started it up. It sounded like
    a diesel, with a much more rapid knocking sound. I only ran it for 30
    seconds and oil pressure was good.
     
    I suppose it could be a lesser failure, but I'm concerned about any
    freeze damage to the block resurfacing once it is reassembled. So it
    sounds like its time to consider a short block.
    
    Our typical duty cycle for skiing is idle at 700 rpm to manuver around
    skiers, need a steady pull up to around 2000 ( trick skiing )- 4000 rpm 
    (slalom and barefooting ) and run for about 10 minutes, shut down and do 
    it again. Occasionally we'll do a 30-40 minute run down the lake at 
    3000-4000 rpm. The ski boat is a water tractor that stays stuck in the
    water as opposed to a  speed boat that  has less and less boat in the
    water as it speeds up. The ski boats have a slight "hook" in the back
    of the hull to keep the nose planted in the water for stability. That's
    why this 350hp engine will only do 48mph in a 20' boat. The h.p. 400
    hp version will only do 3-5 mph faster in this boat. So I think the 
    3000 rpm pulling has a fair amount of drag/load to it.
    
    Mike, give me a call about your motor. It would be great to meet you if
    you can stop by also. I'm at dtn 367-5436 in Charlotte or 704-664-1026 
    at home.
    
    I'm more leaning toward the PAW kit but may be convinced otherwise. Timing
    is also important here also. PAW is backed up at least 30 days they said. 
    I'm booked pretty solid from late June through July ( work and a baby
    due ).  
    
    Chuck
    

    Folks,
    
     A little bit further in the process, but still fighting the available
    time issues....
    
     First off MadMike stopped by and we attended the Winston and Coke 600
    races ( allright I had a little time off ). I now know what a
    professional NASCAR fan is.
    
     I build a frame to lift the engine. Its basically 2 4x4's tall enough
    to reach the trusses in my garage roof. I cut in a 1" dado on each side 
    where the crossmembers attach. This leaves about 1.5 inches in the
    center. The cross member was 2 10' 2x6s that went from 4x4 to 4x4. 
    A third shorter 2x6 was bolted in the center ( making up the 1 1/2 inch
    space). A brace was added to each side making an ( aprox ) 6'x3'x4'
    triangle. The net result was the span lifting the engine is only about
    4' while allowing my 8-9' trailer under the lift. 
       *===*==*==*===*
       |  /       \  |     * = 3/8" bolts
       | /         \ |
       |/           \|
       *             *
       |             |
       |             |
    
    
    A come along and some chain provided the lift. With some of MadMike's
    advice and assistance from my B-I-L I got the engine and tranny on the
    engine stand. It is one heavy mutha, but the frame didn't bend at all.
    
    I've taken the pan off and caps off to do a quick look at the bearings. No
    obviously "spun" bearings though. There is a slight trace of gray
    looking residue in the gunk on the bottom of the pan, suggesting some
    bearing wear. Its a 4 bolt block, I guess the Indmar guy was guessing
    before.
    
    My B-I-L did notice what appears to be a 3" crack in the block near where 
    the plug was forced out. This is marine engine and is painted in a very 
    heavy black enamel for corrosion resistance. The "crack" is an obvious 
    crack in the paint with a rusty looking stain marks coming down from it. 
    The metal does not appear to be deformed of bent out of shape. There is 
    a faint hairline looking discoloration that could be a deeper crack.
    I'm guessing the next step is to really take out the crank and pistons
    to see what it looks like. I'll let you know as the autopsy continues.
                                                                        
    Chuck

    Teardown the rest of the engine.  Have the block magnafluxed.
    If the block is cracked, your options are clear.  If the block is
    NOT cracked, you can salvage the rest of the components.  Usually.
    
    Have your neighbor (Rusty Wallaces engine man) turn the stuff for
    you.  It aughtta last for almost 499 miles.  Don't know what that
    equates to in boating years (hours?).  Bwaahahahhahaah!!!!!
    Just don't be askin babydoll for any shop favors.  I reckon they're
    all feeling rather "light".  
    
    Sounds like you have 2 problems.  I do not think that a popped plug
    caused the bearings to spin. 
    
    MadMike 

    Well, Chuck and I hooked up again, and during the course of
    swapping engines we learned something pretty interesting that
    may be of value to y'all.
    
    I bought a basic 454 a while back.  Period.  I didn't specify 4
    bolt mains, that was extra $$.
    Chuck bought the "standard" 454 in a boat.  Not the 4 bolt mains
    one, which was an option (extra cost, of course)..  
    
    Chuck pulled his engine, and - surprise.  It's a 4 bolt main.
    Guy at the boat company didn't know why.  "Oh well".
    
    Last night we swapped engines, took my pan off and surprise surprise,
    I had a 4 bolt main too.  I'd imagine my Z has a 4 bolt as well, maybe
    that's why it survived it's little spin up to 8 grand.
    Both blocks said "HI PERF PASS" on the back of the block.  (My heads 
    say that as well).  
    
    My observation is:  Don't specifically pay extra for a 4 bolt main
    block, cause your probably going to get one anyway.  It wouldn't
    hurt to ask what the block casting is, prior to buying the engine
    so you can be SURE it has 4 bolts if you absolutely must have a
    4 bolt block.  If I had to guess, most 454's are 4 bolts, and you'd
    have to look hard to find a 2 bolt. Most 454's go into trucks and
    other severe duty apps, so this would make sense.
    
    MadMike

    PS.  If anyones interested, the boat 454 failed due to a piston pin
    siezing, it had nothing to do with the freeze plug, core plug, doo-dad
    on the side of the block.  The block itself is junk though (cracked).
    

    Folks,
    
     Sorry for the time lapse... As Mike said the autopsy on the boat 454
    was a bad wrist pin, caused by phase of the moon, sitting for 5 months,
    potential drop of water in the oil, my run of crummy luck. A quick
    review by the auto machine shop deemed the block as a boat anchor
    candidate.
    
     I visited Mike and got to see / hear / smell his camaro. Wow. Time
   and deference to the neighbors ears at midnight didn't permit a ride, but 
    next time will.
    
     As Mike said, we were both surprized to find 4-bolts where we weren't
    expecting. Maybe my luck is turning around. In my work to determine if
    the old block was any good I've found the best auto machine shop in
    Charlotte. I asked about checking my heads and Mike's block to find out
    the compression ratio ( I'm worried about running on 89 octane gas -
    the only stuff you find on the lake ). The machine shop pointed me to a
    small head specialist that turns out to be 20 miles from where I'm
    doing some on-site consulting. I ran down to Dawsonville with my heads, 
    picked up Mike's block and stopped in to see "Steve's head shed".
    
     Turns out Steve ( Blackwelder I think he said ) spent the last 25
    years in NASCAR. He last worked for Buddy Baker's team that was 1/2 mile 
    from where I live now. He also knows "Bird", the Rusty Wallace engine
    builder that lives around the corner from me. More good news, the block / 
    head combo is low to mid 8:1 compression so I should be in great shape.
    
     On to the the Summit catalog this morning to order gaskets, lifters, a new 
    intake, and whatever happens to slip on the order. I'm still not sure
    I'll beat the baby ( July 11 due date ), but at least all the stuff is
    in-house now. Hopefully the beast will snort again soon.
    
     Chuck                                 

    
        You might want to look into having screw-in core plugs installed.
    This is whats done on all diesels and higher performance ocean-going
    gas powered speed boats, and cabin cruisers. When winter layover time
    comes....the core plugs get completly unscrewed. No water=no ice=no
    more buying new engine blocks. About 10 years ago my dad had his 429
    Ford done for around $150.00 while the engine was out for a rebuild.
    FWIW.
    
    -john

    Folks,
    
     After a major week-end knucle-busting session the beast lives again.
    My motor-head friend in Raleigh wanted to get away for a long week-end
    and was a big motivator in the gung-ho assembly.
    
     We started Saturday afternoon and got the basic short block together
    by late Saturday. We knocked off early Sat. evening to hit a
    get-together on the lake with some neighbors. The pontoon boat isn't as
    exciting as the ski boat, but its transportation. Moral of the story, boats
    are just like cars, it always pays to have a spare around.
    
     Sunday we finished the cleaning and assembly of the long block by mid
    afternoon. We painted the whole affair black to match the rest of the 
    engine compartment. Most of the assembly went pretty well. My dissassembly
    included a number of drawings and bagging of parts. We were missing a 
    couple of key ingredients at the last minute. The most difficult to find 
    on a holiday Sunday afternoon in a small town was the 6 flywheel bolts
    (grade 8 fine thread kind of stuff ). This needed a bonzai blast into
    Charlotte to a Pep Boys at 6pm. I probably left these in the crank I
    left with MadMike. Oh well. 
    
     A third friend stopped by long enough to help us lift / bolt the
    tranny onto the block. For a little SOB it sure was heavy!
    
     Time for up up and away. I don't think I'll ever like the idea of a
    big block and tranny hanging 8' up in the air. At 7:30 we backed the
    boat underneath it, and by 9:00 pm it was bolted to the motor mounts.
    It was now time for adult beverages! We continued on into the evening
    getting the wiring harness, alternator, starter, sending units, and
    water pumps ( yeah 2 ) back on.
    
     Monday AM bright and early we start to put on the headers ( big cast
    aluminum jobs that have water pumped into them and go to dual 3"
    exhaust tubes ). We must have bumped the oil sending line and cracked
    the brass tube going to the sender. Another 1.5 hours running around
    finding 1/8" fine thread tubing. In the mean time Monday was my wife's
    birthday and I didn't have a present yet. So part of that time was
    picking up suitable peace offerings while she was occupied elsewhere.
    While I'm gone, my buddy finishes up the rest of the details like carb,
    distributor, cables, and finishing the headers.
    
     Lunch at 12 noon, and its time to launch! We used my friend's dodge
    van instead of my Trooper. That was an exciting experience. Backing
    down the ramp whole rig starts sliding in the gravel with the brakes
    locked. Must be the weight distribution 'cause my puny little Trooper
    never did that - oh well. All was fine.
    
     The moment of truth is here. Turn the key and nothing. We have the
    trans-lockout switch mis adjusted.... Sweat Sweat Worry. Take 2. The
    engine turns right over and cough cough sputter snort bruummmmmm! We're
    a couple of degrees ( ok like 8 ) off on the timing. A minor
    readjustment, and a second one in the correct direction this time and 
    RRRROOOOOOAAARRRRR!!!! The beast lives. We keep it at fast idle for
    5-10 minutes checking all the connections, hoses, gaskets. Fresh engine
    paint heating up has a wonderful smell! Time to back up and head out
    for a maiden voyage.
    
     We started on a short ride with all the appropriate "just-in-case"
    stuff along like paddles, my wife's phone, all the tools... I think we
    had the boat packed enough that Murphy couldn't fit. We did some minor
    tweaking like idle speed and one more pass at the timing. Since Mike
    already had some time on this motor is wasn't as delicate as a brand
    new start up. After about 45 minutes of 1-2K rpm cruising and checking 
    my friend (who is never shy on his equipment) asks if he is ever going
    to hear the 4 bbls on this thing. We finally find some flat water and 
    ZZZOOOOOOOOMMM. We went up to about 4000 rpm. A bit short of what the
    old motor would top out at ( like 4400 ). Everything held together just
    fine.
    
     I've put about another 2 hours on it since cruising at various speeds.
    The only problems are a minor leak in the original water pump backing
    plate and on one exhaust tube connection.
    
     Now its time for major garage cleanup, boat cleanup, and wife hugging.
    She was very understanding ( in her 9th month of pregnancy ). We
    officially beat the baby - its due any second now.
     
    Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and opinions. Anyone need their arms
    streched by a ski boat? 
     
        Chuck
    

    Folks,
    
    Good News:
    
      I've got about 6 hours on the boat now - around 400 miles I'd guess.
    All is holding together just fine so far ( with fingers crossed ). I'm
    sorting out the last final tweaks - idle speed, tranny cable
    adjustments, waxing out the grease spots on the hull...
    
    Bad News:
    
     Friday is my last day as a Digit. With 2 critters at home and mom
    working also I can't be the SI road runner I've been in the past. I
    don't see it getting any better for the SI types in the forseeable
    future. So 14 years and out the door. Thanks to all for the stories,
    advice, and help. Please keep in touch if you're around Charlotte or
    Mooresville, NC.
    
     Chuck Schmidt
     704-664-1026