Conference napalm::musclecars

    
    Is this the Jim Dowse I know from Sudbury, MA?  If so, HELLO, and give
    me a call at DTN 381-1052/1639 or 1688.  
    
    I'd say an early F-body (Camaro/Firebird) is a perfect candidate for a
    restoration. Lots of parts available (more so and cheaper for Camaro)
    and they are fairly easy to restore based on my experiences helping out
    on the restoration of Chris Roche's (a member of this conference) `67 
    Firebird 400.  From what I have seen it's fairly easy to counterfeit a
    Z-28, SS/RS etc. so beware when purchasing one of these desireable
    models.  Unlike Ford, GM's data tags will tell you only if the car was
    originally a V-8 car, not if it originally contained a 302, 396, etc.
    However, F-Body purists (and there are many in this file) can help you
    decipher whether a car is original or not.  Give me a call.
    
    Tom 

    Could someone explain what some of the tell tale signs are that I may
    want to be looking for that Tom mentioned RE 68.1
    
    Jim

    
    
    	On this subject, there is one thing that I haven't figured out.
    Firebirds were (and are) the better equipped from an equipment and
    appointment aspect, right? Right! Sold for more money and were    
    considered (at least by GM) to be the top of the line of this class of
    car, right? Right! Well then answer me this - 
    
    	WHY DO CLASSIC CAMAROS APPEAR TO BE MORE POPULAR THAN FIREBIRDS??!!
    
    This is a mystery to me, the answer of which cannot be founded in logic.

    Dave,
    The answer to this appears to be that GM consistantly sold (and still
    sells) more Camaros than Firebirds. This is mainly because there were 
    more model choices in the Camaro line, and they sold for less money. If
    I remember correctly GM sold many more Camaros in 69 (for example) than
    Firebirds. I will try to remember to look up the numbers in a Camaro
    history this weekend. 
                                                             JM

    Just happened to have those figures handy....
    
    I don't know why they broke them out by #cyl for Camaro and top style
    for the 'birds.
    
    Camaro 1969				Firebird 1969
    
    6 cyl sold    65,008        Hardtop sold 76,059
    8 cyl sold   178,087        Convert sold 11,699
    Z28 (V8) sold 19,014
    
         Total = 262,109             Total = 87,758
    
    
    /tb/
    

    Well, I spent several hours (well maybe 25 minutes) searching through
    my books to find the Camaro vs Firebird production numbers, and Tom
    beat me to it! Oh well it proves the point anyway.
                                                    JM
    

    But how many T/As in 69?
    
    1969 TransAm  689 Produced.
        520  -  Manual  L74  400 RA III  335hp@5000rpm  430tq@3400
        114  -  Auto    L74  400 RA III      "             "
         46  -  Manual  L67  400 RA  IV  345hp@5400rpm  430tq@3400
          9  -  Auto    L67  400 RA  IV      "              "
    
    Ken P.

    Here are some important F-body facts (though from memory, so don't
    take them as wholly accurate)
    
    First generation Camaros:
    
    If a true Z-28, should have:
    
    1. Muncie 4 speed (no automatic Z-28's in 67-69
    2. Hardtop ONLY (No convertible Z-28's)
    3. Disc Brakes
    4. Tachometer with 6,500 RPM redline
    5. 302 Cube V-8, solid lifters, Engine code prefix "DZ"
    6. On the trim/paint code tag (on firewall, in engine compartment)
       the code X-33 (designating Z-28 stripe option) Actually, there are
       two stripe codes, one for the black stripes, another for white.
    
    For an original Big Block (396, COPO 427):
    
    1. A 3/8" diameter (outside diameter) fuel line
    2. 12 bolt rear-end
    3. Heater hoses exit from center, not side of the heater box (I think)
    4. On radiator, the top inlet should have an 90 degree bend.
    
    Offhand, that's all I can remember.  Please verify this data, I may be
    wrong on some of this.
    
    Tom
    

    As an interesting addition to the last note, I have read that for some
    reason all '69 Z-28's had rear bumper guards, You know, those ugly
    vertical chrome bars that stick out above and below the bumper. 
                                                          JM
    

    Also:
    o All 67-70 camaro Z-28's and SS's had 12 bolt posi rear ends.
    o Z-28's came in small block V8's only!-no big blocks ('67-'69=302,'70=350).
    o SS's had at least a 350 inch motor-no 327's-no 305's-no 307's.
    o The RS's in '67-'69 "usually" had 327 inch motors, but not always.  
    o SS's did come in convertables.
    o All SS's had a slightly raised hood with either black louvres or chrome
  "things" that look like stacks. 
    
    That's all I can remember for now
    Bob   

    
    Some clarifications from an anonymous Camaro expert:
    
    69 Z-28:
    
    Stripe codes are X-33, and X-77
    RPO code D80 denotes spoilers, a Z-28 option
    Tach should have a 6,000 not 6,500 rpm redline
    12 bolt rear-end
    
    Other 69:
    
    RPO Z-11 denotes Pace Car option package
    
    Big Block cars:
    
    If automatic, will have RPO M40, denoting Turbo 400 transmission
    Heater hoses exit from side, not center of heater box
    Angle neck radiator on COPO 427 Camaros only
    3/8" fuel line also came on 350 Cubic inch cars.
    
    So, I'd guess it's a process of elimination.  If the car has the 3/8"
    fuel line, but a powerglide tranny, it's probably not an original big block.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Tom
    
    
    
    

    
    
    Tom,
    
    	they did make one 68 Z-28 convertible. It just sold at auction for
    	around 180K.
    
    			- A.J.

    
    
    If I remember correctly, the engine code for the '67 Z/28 is MO.
    
    Also, I never heard of any '67-'69 Z/28 convetibles but have seen 
    numbers published from between 7 and 9 convertible '69 Trans Ams
    4 of which were supposed to be automatics.
    
    Jim

    
    Re .12
    
    I remember seeing the `68 Z-28 ragtop in a Hemmings auction 
    advertisment.  I thought it was a fraud.  Apparently not....
    
    Re .13
    
    Perhaps just the `69 Z-28 engine code is DZ.
    
    Tom   

    For you Camero owners.....Don't forget the Auto Show this weekend
    in Haverhill Ma. July 17 and 18.   Sponsered by the Eastern Ma.
    Camero Asso. ??   
    
    North Rt. 125 to Plastow N.H at the Haverhill Plastow line.
    
    FYI

    re:.15
    
    I hope none of the CamAro (sp)!! owners are offended...
    To correct the date, it's AUG. 17th & 18th.....

    Thanks for all the info! This is great. Apparently I came to the right
    place with my questions. How about some more detailed info on the
    different engine types and options. also was there ever suspension
    options for more of a high performance suspension. 
    
    In ref to number 68.3  I also agree, the Firebird is a nicer looking
    car. It seams to me it has always been just a little bit more
    aerodynamic than the Camaro. just my 2 cents.
    
    Thanks again,  Jim

    One more question, as if I haven't asked enough already.
    
    Is there a Camaro/Firebird book out there in publication land I could
    buy? What about magazines?
    
    Jim

    	I should know this, but I don't.  When did GM stop polluting
    these cars (and Chevelles, Novas, etc) with powerslide 2-speeds?
    Was `69 the cutover year for TH350/400?

    re:.18
    
    In the July 1990 issue of Super Chevy, there is a complete breakdown
    of 67-69 Camaro cowl tag info. I've owned several of these cars, some
    of which are still around, and have yet to find any of this info In-
    correct. The author of the article is Frank J.R. Incremona who I 
    believe has written a book on this stuff. I have the issue if you'd
    like a copy of the article. It makes it fun at shows when a "real"
    SS/RS 350 has nothing on the cowl tag.. ;^) and the owners argue the
    point about books being valid..
    
    John

    Re .19 I've had two '70 Novas. One had a 307 with a PowerSlide, the
    other had a 350 with a PowerSlide. 
    
    Harry
    

    re: .20
    
    I picked up that issue. Thanks. It has some great info in it. Just the
    stuff I'm looking for. Is there anything like that on the late model
    Birds though? That would be even better :)
    
    Jim

    This weekend I was at the Big E out in Springfield. I saw a picture of
    a Camaro 427 SC. Is this for real? It appeared to be a 69 Camaro with a
    427 and a stripe design down the center of the hood. It had a name for
    the model like a Berlinetta but I can't think of it. It was a stranage
    name and I think it began with a "Y". Was this ever a production car or
    was it something created by one individual?
    
    Can't see e'm around here,      Jim

    Yenco Camaro maybe ???  I believe there was a gent who modified
    some Camaros with GMs ok... similar to the Shelby Mustangs.
    Maybe a another reader can shed more light on this.
    
    
            Dean

    
    Yenko Camaros are indeed factory COPO 427 cars with special stripes
    and interiors items. I believe they made around 80? for 69. A Camaro
    expert will know the exact number. Hmmmmmm, I thought Yenkos where
    almost as well known as Shelbys.
    
    
    	- A.J.

    
    
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure the made more than 80. It was 
    the ZL1 that they only made 60. Anyone else see the reader write in to 
    Muscle Car Classics (I think) where he talks about this big block 
    Camaro he bought years ago just cause he wanted a fast ride. Anyway,
    these guys come along and try to buy the car from him. He really
    doesn't want to sell but they keep offering more and more till finally
    they are offering an obscene amount. He still won't sell so they tell
    him it's a ZL1. He didn't know what one was. Sent the number into this
    Mag where they say, Yep your lucky.
    
    			- A.J. 

    As some of you know I am in the process of completing a '67 Firebird
    with a 400 4spd. My question concerns the speedometer cable. When I
    purchased the car it had a mangled speedo cable. It was a single
    cable that appeared to be too short based on the damage. However it
    was so badly destroyed the length couldn't be determined. While looking 
    thru the '67 assembly manual I noticed that a 2 part (upper and lower)
    speedo cable assembly, each with it's own part number is specified 
    on some configurations and not others. Does anyone know if a 2 part 
    is required for my application? I have on order a 55" cable for the
    67-68 'birds and there is also a 24" for 67-72 listed that I didn't
    order.
    
    Thanks,
    Chris
    

    Are you sure the two part one isn't for cruise control, where the cable
    is split?

    According to the assembly manual the 2 meet at the transmission
    crossmember. Also the part #'s for the speedo cables on a cruise
    set-up are different. So far this is the only part of the assembly
    manual that has given me problems. It doesn't tell you which engine
    and trans combos get which speedo cables. I may call one of the
    POCI experts tonight to get an answer.

    Maybe it's a transmission cable???
    
       The 2 bbl cars used a cable as a kickdown for passing gear?
    
    Rod.

    I've been reading up alot lately on the late model birds and Camaros.
    Can somebody tell me what the "Headers in the trunk" option was?
    I've seen it mentioned a few times as an unadvertised option for the
    early year Camaros but they never explain the option.
    
    Jim

    Jim,
    
    	I believe the headers in the trunk option was a set of tubular
    headers that you buy but were not factory installed.  they were more
    expensive than aftermarket and were not often ordered.  Dealer
    installed them at a high price.  There were a couple of other options 
    like that also.
    
    				dennis
    

    re: last
    
    I forgot to say that they literally put the headers in the trunk.
    hence, "headers in the trunk option".
    
    		dennis
    

    I need a new power window regulator for my 76 Camaro.  It has the drive
    gears and bars to lift the window glass.  It is driven by the electric
    motor.  70 to 81 will interchange, but is obsolete from GM.  (as of
    3/92!)  A mail order outfit wants $150 for a new one.  Will other
    models interchange, and will a junkyard have one?
    thanks,
    Matt

    Hi Matt,
     Most good-sized junkyards will have one (or most likely more than one) in
    it. They can also tell you which other cars will interchange. Try
    several JY's first, before you spend the money on a rebuild. If you are
    in the Mass. area I know of a few good ones to try. Let me know where
    you are and I will post a few places.
                                                                  John M.
    

  
               <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
================================================================================
Note 39.129                     Camaro/IROC note                      129 of 129
MR4DEC::TURNER "Look at mother nature on the run"      10 lines  27-Jan-93 10:03
                         -< Help with Z12 trim code?? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Could someone help me with decoding the Z12 trim code on my 1968 camaro
    SS body tag. I have been unabel to identify the options associated with
    this code. I have been able to decoded all other numbers on the plate
    but have been unable to decifer the Z12 trim code. I assume it has
    something to do with the SS package...
    
    
    Thanks
    
    Brett 

    What distinguishing features does a Yenko Camaro have?  I'm not sure if
    I've ever seen one.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    They're kinda hard to distinguish, generally all you got to see was
    the taillights 8-)

    Yenko's were pretty close to stock looking. At least in '69 anyway.
    They had a stripe running down each side, with Yenko written at the
    quarter panel end, and an arrow shaped stripe down the center of the
    hood with sYc at the front. The interior also had sYc on the bucket
    seat headrests. By the way, sYc stood for Yenko super car. Every one
    that I have seen had a cowl-inductoin hood, and a rear spoiler, and
    all were equipped with a 427 cubic inch big block. I think an
    aftermarket wheel was also part of the package. They did not have any
    fiberglass parts like a Shelby Mustang, although Baldwin-Motion
    Chevrolet had a Motion Camaro, with 427, that had a 'glass hood with a
    Corvette style scoop on it. 
     An original Yenko, or a Motion, is rare and expnsive today. 
                                                            John M.
    

>An original Yenko, or a Motion, is rare and expnsive today. 

Not sure if this is the going rate, but I know of one that recently sold here
in Phoenix for $80K.

Mike

    
    
    I read and article on Yenko's the other day in one of the muscle rags.
    Some guy had like six  (?) Yenkos including Camaros, Chevelles and
    Novas.  The primary distinction was the 427.  The article also said
    that other options were available but did not be specific. -.2 seems to
    be in tune to the options.
    
    /ab

>Note 84.1                         Shelby Cobra                           1 of 78
>NUMERO::C_WILLIAMS "Hammer"                          12 lines  19-FEB-1992 13:52
>
>	From the March, 1992 CAMARO CRAFT, er, I mean CAR CRAFT:
>
>                  ZR-1 Corvette   '92 Dodge Viper   '66 427 Cobra
>                  -------------   ---------------   -------------
>
>  engine (ci)          350              488              427
>
>  0-60 (s)             4.9              4.8              4.18
>
>  1/4 mile (s)     13.4 @106.7      13.1 @109.3      12.49 @113.84    
    
    Does anyone know the comparable numbers for the Shelby Mustang and
    Yenko Camaro?  
    
    curious,
    Mike

    
    The most unique thing about Yenko Camaros and Chevelles is that the
    450 hp, 427s were factory installed. This gave them a VIN number stamped
    on the origional block and a factory warranty.
    
    I have a friend who has 2 69 Yenkos, a Chevelle and a Camaro. I got to
    drive the Camaro home from Super Chevy Show......WOW! With a quick
    application of the throttle the tires would spin at 60 mph in high
    gear! Deffintaly a SUPER CAR!
    
    Don B
    

    In addition to the stripes mentioned previously there was a large tack
    attached to the steering column (not in dash but attached),,The 427
    was an L-72, came standard with 4:10 gears with 4:56 optional, and
    either the M-22 (with hurst shifter) or an auto, standard wheels were
    GM rally, and power steering and brakes were also standard...Mine had 
    options of am radio, Chambered exhaust,  four wheel disck brakes, and
    tinted glass..Oh ya on the side of the coul there was a 427 chrome
    script and also one on the lower front quarter panel..With street tires
    it went high 12's out of the box, with slicks and some tuning it did a
    best of 11:21 still in total street legal form..I believe most of the
    test on them way back when (few but a couple) put them in the low 13's
    to high 12's ..I changed the centrifical (sp) ctch to a Hayes unit
    along with better clutch disks, tweeked the suspension to get better
    grip and launch and started cracking axles..Put in some strange units
    and went 10:93 still totally street legal..
     If you really want some info I have the original flyers, option
    sheets, window sticker, photo's, time slips etc..be happy to copy them 
    and send out a set..
    
    
    Jim

    
    
    Sure Jim, I want a set, thanks very much.
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
     why don't you just stop by the office and ask,,,Gee...By the way I
    believe you test drove a "Lighting"...What did you think..??>>
    
    Jim

    Just tossing this out for your suggestions:
    
    I have a 1980 Camaro with a modified, but not radical 454 in it.
    I've hesitated putting it on the strip because #1, I need to tow
    it 40 miles in case I blow up and #2 the biggie, it has T-TOPS.
    
    From what I gather, if I were to ever hook up the rear tires
    upon launching, my wife would have to get me out of the car with
    a can opener after a run. 
    
    How effective would frame connectors be in this case?  I don't want
    to cut the car up and I don't want to put too much cash into 
    strengthening the car.  I just want to be able to put my foot into
    it and not go sideways.  By not going sideways, I need slicks on my
    car.  If I put slicks on my car it will try and hook up.  In "normal"
    street driving the slightest hint of stabbing the pedal will poke
    the tires.  The current tires are Goodyear ST 245 60X15's.
    
    Anybody else tackle a problem like this? 
           
    Also, if frame connectors are in order, would you recommend having
    them welded in/on?  Can these be added without moving the rear end
    around? 
    
    Mike

    
     Check out note 55.9 for a testimonial on sub frame connectors. Even
    though that is about a ford, the principals are the same and will apply
    to your camaro.
    

    Mike, I own a 79 Camaro with T-Tops and a warmed over 350 with a 
    posi rearend.
    
    I installed a set of subframe connectors a few years back. I bought
    the bolt on type, and had them welded in later. They bolt in under
    the body bushings. There was no cutting involved. The car instantly
    lost half the rattles it used to have. (those of you who have owned
    a Camaro know what I'm talking about)
    
    I have taken my car to the drags several times and although my car
    has never hooked up all that well (street tires) my car is definitely
    not a pretzel. The body seems don't exactly line up they way they
    did when the car was new, but I think I'm the only one who notices.
    
    It was definitely one of the better $90. investments I've made on my
    car.
    
    
    Mark

    I was at a bookstore today and browsed thru an Internet book. In there
    I saw a conference titled FBODY and it had the internet address. I've
    been trying to send mail but keeps getting returned. Anyone else tried
    to enroll in the conference.
    
    Fbody @boogie.ebay.sun.com
    
    Gets returned by doesit.ebay.sun.com.  OK, I sent a subscription
    message to doesit.... same thing. Anyone else been this route ?
    
    Bob
    

I met a guy this weekend, who claimed to have a '69 Camaro more rare than a
Yenko.  He claimed that it had a factory 454, 12.5:1 compression, solid lifters,
etc.  I _think_ the engine option he mentioned was called a T01 (or T08?) - 
and he claimed that this designation was on the side of the hood scoop.  He 
claims it was rated for 575 horsepower.  I think the rest of the car was 
unremarkable - no trick suspension or wierd bodywork, etc. 

It has ~8500 original miles, and he bought it from a relative in 1976 for 8500, 
and recently turned down an offer of $35K.  He claims that he knows of only 13
others, though a few more were made.  He didn't seem like a BSer, but I sure
wasn't aware of any really wild Camaros like this.  If I happen to see him 
again, I'll press him to get a look at it.  I presume the VIN would reveal 
what this is.


comments?  


Steve

    It's either a:
    COPO (Central Office Production Order?) car which is specially altered
    at the manufacturer for some reason (for the "boss", promotion, research).
    Yenko wasn't the only performance manufacturer dealer that existed
    in '69 such as Nickey Chevy in Chicago & a place or two in Los Angeles.
    The guy could be either honestly misinformed or bs'ing you.
    
    FWIW: In 1970 Chevrolet was still installing the 427 (ZL1 option)
    in the Camaro (50 units).   The 454 didn't show up until the 2nd
    generation (1970 1/2 with motion performance among others). The car may be 
    a COPO which would be very rare.  With some research (and the VIN) you 
    should be able to track down the cars origon.  I assume if the car is
    legit a build sheet or copo request may still be in posession of the
    (origonal) owner.  That would pretty much settle the issue.
    
    Regards,
    
    MadMike

    As far as I know, GM was not installing the 454 in anything in 1969.  I
    could be wrong though...
    
    Mark

    re: -1
    You're not wrong. The 454 showed up on Chevrolet cars in 1970.
    That year you could purchase the 396 as the largest available V8
    in a Camaro.  Performance dealers started installing the 454
    in the Camaro then also.  The trick here is to realize that the
    Camaro changed body styles halfway through the year.
    
    Mike
    who_really_misses_his_old_70_RS_Camaro_and_has_a_brand_new_454_for_
    _it_also_er_actually_it's_for_"my_son"_but_my_wife_is_really_pis.....

There's a Tex Smith book out on the COPO Camaros.  It was written by an 
engineer at GM on the Camaro research and development staff.

If you have trouble tracking down a copy, drop me a line @ CRYSLR::Readio 
and I'll look into finding one.

    
    One possibility is that it was a late production '69. The production
    run of '70 Camaros was delayed and so GM continued producing '69s well
    into 1970. It was the longest run in Camaro history.
    
    Still, I have never heard of a "FACTORY" 454 Camaro of any vintage, save
    a few one-offs built for GM execs.
    
    Don Berry
    

    re: Note 68.51 by CXDOCS::HELMREICH
    
    Any feedback?  Did you or the guy who owns the car check into it and
    find out what it is?

    
    Any feedback?  Did you or the guy who owns the car check into it and
    find out what it is?

	No, haven't seen him.  He claims the car is "for his retirement" so 
I assume it'll be a while before he sells it.  He turned down an offer for 35K,
so he's got more fortitude than many.  I'll try to learn more.

steve

    Oh ya, I remembered the $35K part you mentioned in your origonal reply.
    Hell, I can't even afford to go down the street to McDonalds, er, not
    that I really want to.  It's just the only thing "down the street".
    That and "Bill Elliott Ford".  Not that I'd want to go there either.
    "Too bad it's not a Chevy".  :^)
                                                                

    re "Bill Elliott Ford"  .........watch it Mike!....some of us happen
    to like his cars...
    
    :-)
    
    TMW
    
    I'm still waiting for my order from there.....only six months so
    far....

    TMW, what did you order.  I'll go down there today on my way home
    and "remind" them you're looking for something.
    
    Mike

    Mike ,
    I talked to the parts guy about sending up a license plate frame and 
    an emblem. I guess he didn't understand "figure out the price and send
    it C.O.D. If you happen to stop by, ask what a frame and emblem cost and
    let me know. I'll send you the money. 
    
    
    TMW

Hi,

I have a 67 camaro, last year we put together (dressed up a 327) ... and ran
it for about 500 miles.  This year we pulled out the 327 and are in the
process of putting in a 350.  however the new Edelbrock Aluminum
intake manifold that we purchased last year, and put to very little use
needs a cleaning?!  It looks lousy.. browned in spots, and just dirty
looking.  My husband suggested having it glass beeded and then spraying it
with some sort of clear protector.

Has anyone else out there had that done?  Where?  How much did it cost?
What 'clear protector' should we use?  Or.. is there some sort of cleaner
that we could buy to clean it up?

Thanks,

Cathi P

If you're not using race gas, have it powdercoated.  I'd skip any kind of
"clear" spray-on finish, as engine heat and goo will quickly render it sticky, 
yellow, or both.

You might just beadblast it, and leave it at that, being careful not to spill
things on it.


steve

    I second powder coating - it comes out looking SUPERB and is basically
    bullet proof.  Friends of mine recently had their dirt bike frames
    powdered, and they take an insane amount of abuse!!
    jc

    
    You can buy a clear coating designed for high heat applications.
    Its sold by Eastwood and is guaranteed not to yellow up to 680 degrees.
    The name escapes me....
    
    I'll be trying this on my Ford Aluminum intake sometime soon.
    
    Tom

    When I had the valve covers,pan and intake on my T motor I used
    Future Floor wax (two coats) I ran the motor and it stayed shiney
    just fine.
    
    TMW

Hi,

I have a 67 Chevy Camaro convertible.  327 motor,  Powerglide transmission.
The speedometer has not been working since we bought the car  so my
husband finally got around to taking off the transmission pan and checked
the cable.. the cable seems to be okay.. then he noticed that there were
NO speedometer gears!  The people we bought the car from had the
transmission re-built, so I guess they never put the gears back in.

Anyways.. now we're trying to figure out which one to order.  Below is a list
of the speedometer gears that are available for 67 camaro's in the
Classic Camaro's catalog.

	w/3.31 axle (7.00, 7.35, 7.75 x 14)
	w/2.73, 307, 3.08 axle (7.00, 7.35 x 14) - blue 20 teeth
	w/4.10 axle (7.00, 7.35 x 14) GM 22 teeth
	w/3.55 axle (7.00, 7.35 x 14) blk 23 teeth
	w/4.88 axle (7.00, 7.35 x 14)  orange 25 teeth
	w/3.73 4.56 axle (8.55 x 14, 8.15, 8.45 x 15)

What else would I need to know to determine which one to order?

Thanks,

Cathi P

    1).  Jack up the rear of the car and support it with jack stands.
    1a).  If you're lucky there is a tag on the rear end that indicates what
          type of rear gear is in the car.  You're probably not going to
          be lucky, so...
    2).  Make a chalk line at "12 o'clock" on one of the tires.
    3).  Someone get under the rear of the car, stair straight at the
         drive shaft and make a chalk line right in front of your nose.
    4).  Have someone rotate the tire SLOWLY, ONCE until the chalk line
         comes back to 12 o'clock.  Meanwhile the person stairing at the
         drive shaft will need to count the number of times the chalk line
         passes his nose  (one.... two.... three...  and a half....
         hmmmm.... 3.55 gear).
    5).  This will "eyeball" the gear ratio.
    6).  You could always pull the cover off the rear end to check the
         gears in the differential, etc...  but this STINKS like all get
         out.
    
    Regards,
    MadMike
         

Thanks for that input Mike.  If we had to take the cover off the rear
differential and look at the gears... what would we be looking for to
deterimine the gear ratio?

Thanks again,

Cathi P

    You mentioned many different choices of gears, fortunantly they're
    all different ratios.  The carrier would be something to measure.
    Also probably the ring gear (i.e. number of teeth).
    
    The main thing here is you most likely don't know the origon of the
    car.  Classic Camaro gave you a choice of gears that were SUPPOSED
    to come in that year car.  What happens if a newer 8.5 inch rear
    end or whatever was slipped in there in 1982?  If you only find
    the axle ratio, you may still be SOL when you order the gear that
    was supposed to fit.
    
    MadMike
    
    

If the drive gear (that's the one that's on the output shaft and
is the difficult one to replace..) is not there...you want to be 
sure that it CAN be replaced.  I've seen TH350s with the "tang" that 
holds the gear in place, broken off....if that's the case having the right
gears won't make any difference at all.

Check to see if that drive gear is in there...if so you then need to know
how many teeth IT has...it has to be a match with the driven gear that they
gave you a list of.

/tb/

    
    Cathi,
    
    If you remove the rear cover on the diff. you will need to count the
    teeth on both the ring gear and the pinion gear. I may be difficult to
    see the pinion.
    
    The best way is to jack the car up and support it with jack stands.
    Look for a 2 letter code stamped on the top of the pass. side axle
    tube. You will probably need a stiff wire brush and a light to find the
    code. I have a factory manual that will decode the letters. Post them
    here or send me mail.
    
    Don
    
    

To determine the gear ratio from looking at the gears:

Make sure the trans is not in gear (manual) or park (automatic) so that the 
driveshaft is free to turn.

Make a mark on the pinion gear (the one buried inside the housing that's 
connected to the driveshaft) and rotate the ring gear while counting the 
teeth on the pinion.

Divide the number of teeth on the ring gear by the number of teeth on the 
pinion.

To determine the gear ratio from rotating the rear tires:

MAKE SURE BOTH TIRES TURN AT EXACTLY THE SAME RATE.  If you have a posi 
(limited slip) this won't be a problem.  If you have a non-posi, you're 
going to have to be real careful to have both tires rotating at the same 
rate when you rotate them the full turn mentioned in the previous note.

Best bet is to put a chalk mark on EACH tire and keep an eye on those marks 
as you rotate the tires.

A more accurate way  --  but a bit more difficult  -- is to put a mark on 
the driveshaft and a mark on a tire at the bottom.  Whilst slowly rolling 
the vehicle have someone watch the driveshaft and count the number of full 
turns it makes while you roll the car.  When you've completed a full turn 
on the wheels (They're both rolling at the same rate this way) make a 
second mark on the driveshaft in the same relative position as your first 
mark.  i.e. if the first mark was on the bottom, make the second mark on 
what is now the bottom.

Jack up the car and observe the relative distance between the two marks.  
If they're slightly more than 180 degrees apart, this equates to 0.55 turns
.  Add that to the number of full turns the driveshaft made and you'll come 
up with something like 3.55:1 ratio.

If the original mark is nearly at the same point as it was before you 
started, you're probably dealing with 3.08:1

Given that gear ratios are pretty standard, you can guestimate.

2.73 = roughly 2 3/4 turns on the driveshaft
3.08 = roughly 3 turns on the driveshaft
3.36 = roughly 3 1/3 turns on the driveshaft
3.55 = roughly 3 1/2 turns on the driveshaft
4.11 = just over 4 turns on the driveshaft
4.56 = roughly 4 1/2 turns on the driveshaft
5.13 = just over 5 turns on the driveshaft

Is it possible to have a 1:1 ratio.

One turn of the wheel = 1 turn of the drive shaft?  My husband says he
tried it (marking the wheel/drive shaft & turning the wheel) and that
one turn of the wheel made the drive shaft rotate once.

Thanks

    That sounds odd (i.e. someone did something wrong).  I'm still on my first 
    cup of coffee, but I think you get to a 1:1 ratio by being in 3rd or
    4th gear.
    
    Did you perform the test with the transmission in neutral?
    Does the car have a posi traction/limited slip differential?
    If NOT .-? mentioned you need to turn both wheels at the same time
    and same rate.  If you have posi traction, you should be able to 
    turn 1 wheel.
    
    I think you'd have a horrible time trying to get your camaro to move
    with a 1:1 gear ratio. 

Hi,

I currently have a 67 camaro (standard) and am looking into what would 
be involved in transforming it to a 67 Rally Sport.  I know that there's
alot of stuff that we'd need to do regarding the front (grill/headlights,
and add the RS chrome trim...)  Has anyone else out there done it?
maybe someone has a list of things that would need to be changed, parts
that would need to be purchased, etc?  And.. is it worth it?

Thanks

Cathi

    Hi Cathi,
     I restored a '69 Camaro SS before I became a Ford fan, so I can give
    you some information. You will need at least the following....
    Grill, headlight doors, headlight buckets, vacuum can for headlights,
    headlight vac. plumbing and switch, new front lower valance panel (the
    panel below the front bumper) new front turn signal lights for valance
    panel, grill emblem, side trim strips, side "RS" emblems, taillights,
    new back-up lights relocated to rear valance panel below bumper, "RS"
    gas cap, paint tailight panel black. I think thats most of the exterior
    stuff, there are some differences in the interior, but I'm not sure
    what. Some people may not agree to adding the "RS" equipment, as then
    it would be a fake, but its not like faking a  Z-28, so I don't see 
    a problem. The RS package was just an appearance package that could be 
    found on any Camaro, there are RS Z-28's and RS SS's. I had a standard 
    SS and a friend has a RS SS. The only problem is finding every piece,
    and the cost. I think most pieces are available through the Paddock,
    etc.  Hope this helps
                                                       John M.
    

    Cathi,
    
      The expert on 1st generation F-body Camaro's is Mike Gilon, 
    SALEM::GILON. He'll be able to tell you all the pieces necessary. For
    those who have seen it, his '67 427 (dealer installed) SS RS is truly
    a masterpiece. He's on vacation this week and will return next.
    
    Chris

    Cathi,
    
    I have 3 '67 RS cars in my shop at this time. I would not even consider
    trying to convert a standatd car without a "Donor" RS. here is a list
    of major componets that are RS specific;
    
    	Front fenders		; RS headlights sit farther back
    	Lower valance		; for turn signals
    	Upper valance		; grill mounting posts ar different
    	rear Valance		; for backup lights
    	Taillights		; RS are solid red
    	Taillight wiring	; B/U lights are mounted under bumper 
    	Underhood wiring	; '67s have electric doors
    	Underdash wiring	; same as above
    
    Since most of the parts are specific to '67s they do not interchange
    with '68 and '69s. I have a "stash" of '67 RS parts for the unhappy day
    when one of mine gets bent. Sometimes complete front clips show up in
    places like Hemming Motor News, but the prices can be high. Let me know
    if you need any help.
    
    Don
    
    

    Cathi,
    re: .78 
            The rear valance panel is only blacked out on Big Block cars.
    
    re: .80 
            You can buy the deep mounting brackets for the headlight
    assy.'s so you can convert the non-rs fenders to rs.
    (Don, I didn't realize the upper valance panel was unique to rs. I know `69
    is different from 67-8 as far as grill mounting goes..)
    
    You also need the 6-piece rocker panel moldings.
    The headlight assy.'s alone need motors,relays,limit switches,and its own
    separate wiring harness.
    The tail light lens are one piece, but you also need the chrome
    housings for the one piece lens. 
    
    My `67 RS/SS is almost finished and is currently registered and road
    worthy if you ever want to see it. I live in Auburn. I've done a lot
    of research on specifically `67's as far as de-coding the firewall tags
    and such and also have learned a lot about them over the years. (I've
    owned 3 `67's and a `68 Z28). The `67 RS/SS I had owned 20 years ago
    is still around and a friend of mine is currently restoring another.
    
    John

>    re: .78 
>            The rear valance panel is only blacked out on Big Block cars.

And, to my knowledge, RS Camaros didn't come with big blocks (only the SS 
did).

    re: -.1
    
    Actually, if you ordered a 350 or a Big Block it only came in SS trim
    which gave you the 12 bolt rear, H.D. springs, 3/8 fuel line, and
    in most cases a rear traction bar.
    Skip is right, RS only Camaros were either 6 cylinders, 327's, or
    Z28's.
    You could though, order the RS option with the SS, hence the RS/SS...8^)
    
    
      John

    The 396 didn't start shipping from the factory until 1968.  The
    RS option could be put onto any base or upgraded model Camaro.  If
    the RS option was put onto an upgraded Camaro (Z/28 or SS) the Z/28 or
    SS emblems would take precidence.
    
    It sounds from previous noters that changing from a standard to
    RS '67 would be a lot of work/cash.  The front grill/lights and rear
    panels need to be replaced, all the misc. emblems and insignias (which
    COST A FORTUNE BTW) for the inside/outside... and don't forget the 
    wheels and/or hub caps to complete the package.  Is it worth it?  If it 
    is to you, it is.  Is it worth the car being worth extra $$$, not really,
    because it's not "legit".  The parts available would raise the price
    somewhat though.  Is it fake?  Only if you advertise it for sale as legit.
    
    While on the topic of 1967 Camaros, 602 Z/28's were built that year.
    If you find one, buy it (after you verify it's real).  The Z/28 option
    didn't take off until 1969 when the car was identified as a Z/28.

    In addition, the '67 RS used electric motors to open the headlight
    covers, Vacuum doors appeared in '68.  The grills for the 67 RS are
    different than the 68, the rear gas cap is interchangable.  Some of
    the chrome trim included in the RS was offered as an option to the
    base model Camaro.
    
    You didn't need to order the SS to get the 396 in 68.  If you did get the
    SS, small block, you got the louvered hood, with the BBC you got a
    dual "stack-type" hood.  They also screwed the cubic inch emblum onto
    the fender, so you don't need to notice the hood detail to figure
    out what's under the hood (actually, you can listen and that will give
    you the "truth" about what's under the hood) :^).   

>    The 396 didn't start shipping from the factory until 1968.  The

The engine or that engine in a Camaro?

The 396 was available in '67.  My younger brother had a 325 hp 396 with a 
turbo 350 in a '67 Camaro when he worked at Central Chevrolet in '67.  He 
bought it from the manager who'd ordered it that way (it was a 
Chevelle-only driveline  --  325 hp with automatic)

I believe the 396 was available in the Camaro with the Powerglide or 4 
speed and the turbo 350 trans was only available in larger carlines, not 
the Camaro unless it was a RPO.

The car is still around.  Ed Lubanski bought it and, to my knowledge, still 
owns it.

    > The engine or that engine in a Camaro?
    That engine wasn't offered as an RPO on the Camaro until 1968.
    
    > The 396 was available in '67.  My younger brother had a 325 hp 396
    > with a turbo 350 in a '67 Camaro when he worked at Central Chevrolet
    > in '67.
    
    Someone else in here also has a 427 (factory?) installed in a Camaro.  Not 
    many folks did this sort of thing, so I would assume those cars would
    be "valuable" (<---- understatment?)  Back then, if you had the money,
    connections, knowledge and/or were persistent, you could order what
    you wanted even if it "didn't come that way".
    
    Try ordering a V6 in a Cavalier, like I tried.  If you want a V6 you
    MUST buy a Z24.  I don't want a Z24, I want a V6 Cavalier.  You MUST
    buy the Z24 to get the V6.... I got a 4 banger in my Cavalier.  :^\
    It's virtually impossible to special order something (at least from
    Chevrolet) thesedays.  This is where the dealers would step in and
    offer cool stuff like 427/454 Chevelles/Camaros/Novas/Impalas.
    
    MadMike 

    1968 Available Power Teams (Big Block only)
    
    325-hp Turbo-Jet 396 V8 (4bbl, hyd. lifters, 10.25:1)
    
                              Rear Axle Ratio's (without Air)     With A/C
    Transmission              Std.     Econ.   Perf.  
    Sp. 3 speed (2.41:1 low)  3.07:1   2.73:1  3.31:1             Same
    4 speed (2.52:1 low)      Same                                Same
    Turbo Hydra-Matic         2.73     2.56:1  3.07:1         2.73 n/a 3.07:1
    
    Apparently, the Powerglide wasn't offered on BBC's in 68.  the biggest
    gear you could get was the 3.31:1 also.
    The 3.55:1 axle was the biggest offered on any non-big block camaro, 
    but the 3.73 - 4.88 only came with the 295-hp 350 listed as "special
    ratios".
    
    Of course, you could go down to the dealership and say:
    "I don't care what the book says... when my 396 shows up, make sure the
    4.11:1 axle is in it"  And it would be.

Brother Bruce's '67 was white and had 2.73 gears.  He bought it from the 
manager who'd RPO'd it from the factory and got tired of it after a couple 
thousand miles.  BTW, this was when it used to be Leader Chevrolet, not 
Central Chevrolet.

He put 5.13 hears in it for a while.. YOW!!!!!!.  He drove it to Lebanon 
Valley Dragway (from Westfield) one Sunday with those gears.  With the 
Belanger headers and 5.13 gears, it was one quick Camaro.

When he sold it to Ed he had to go the front office to explain that the 
transmission work Ed needed done *was* under warranty.  Central was 
refusing to do the work, because the driveline was listed as being Chevelle
, not Camaro.  The name of the dealership had changed by then as had management.  
It was a real horror show for a couple of days getting the work authorized.

Of course, horror stories abound with that car and driver before he sold it.
For the life of me, I can't recall what he drove once he sold it and he's 
my own brother.  It's tough to get old.  :-)

    
    My '67 is an original RS SS 396 ,325 hp with a Turbo Hydramatic 400.
    One of 1500 big blocks with an automatic. I know that the trans is
    original because it has the VIN number stamped on the case. It has a
    special shifter for a 3 speed and a 12 bolt 3.08 posi with a factory
    traction bar on the passenger side. The car drives like a dream because
    it is all stock and has tremendous low-end torque. It will show a 5.0
    mustang its taillights before the crosswalk across intersection even
    with the puny 205R70x14 tires.
    
    Any more '67 396 questions?? Just ask.
    
    Don B
    
    

    That's what I get for quoting 1967 Camaro sales literature.
    Did you buy your car new, or know the history?  Was it ordered special
    such as the Chevelle drivetrain in the Camaro?  I'll bet the stuff I'm
    looking at was the initial release, since 1967 was the initial year of the
    Camaro, they may have RPO'd the Big block during the production run.
    I wonder if this was a bug fix.  :^)  Most likely.  Small blocks are
    really wimpy.  Well, maybe not, my LT-1 would probably smoke my 454,
    but the 454 can do this day after day, month after month, where the
    LT-1 eventually deposited itself all over the road.
    
    MadMike 

    Big Blocks were most certainly available in the `67 Camaro as RPO's.
    Simply look at the lower left corner of the firewall tag for a # 4.
    
    If after the # 4 it has a letter N - it was originally a 325 HP 396 CI
         "         "           "     E -    "         "      350 HP 396 CI
         "         "           "     K -    "         "      375 HP 396 CI
    
    Small Blocks had:                P -    "         "      295 HP 350 CI
                                     L -    "         "      290 HP 302 CI
    
    If there is a letter F after the # 4, that meant the car had a remote
    rear view mirror. ( ?? go figure!)
    
    If there is NO # 4 on the tag, the car was originally a 327 CI or 
    judging by another number on the tag, a 6 cyl.
    

>    Did you buy your car new, or know the history?  Was it ordered special
>    such as the Chevelle drivetrain in the Camaro?  I'll bet the stuff I'm
>    looking at was the initial release, since 1967 was the initial year of the
>    Camaro, they may have RPO'd the Big block during the production run.


My brother bought it from his boss who took delivery of the new vehicle and 
didn't care for the way it performed (with a 2.73:1 differential) so he 
"sold" it right away.  My brother was the first "registered" owner of the 
car, the manager drove it on dealer tags.

It may have had a THD 400 instead of the THD 350, my memory isn't *that* 
good.  The key thing is that it was the THD and not a Powerglide.  The 
THD was, supposedly, only available in the Chevelle (behind the 325 hp 
396) in production vehicles.  If you wanted it in a Camaro it had to be 
RPO'd, otherwise you got a Powerglide.

    I'm curious as to why the 67 sales literature doesn't mention a
    big block on the available drive trains.  Since Don has a 67 BBC
    his vin # (build date specifically) would indicate a couple things
    of interest, such as how many cars came off the line before his, and
    the date in the year his was built.  If his car was built early, that
    would blow the "mid season change of heart" theory out the window.
    Then again I could dig out some other books and find out what the deal
    is.  I believe Don said they made 1500 BBC's in 67, out of a total
    production of 220,906, of those, 73% had "standard" V8's.

    
    Mine is a late production (March) and your right about a mid season
    change of heart. The 396 was added in response to the mustang 390
    combo. In '67 only 1500 THD 400 were mated with 396s, there were about
    23K 325 hp and about 9K 375 hp cars sold. These figures are from my
    somewhat dusty memory. 
    
    RPO stands for "Regular Production Order" and means any part that was
    regularly installed on the production line. There was also COPO which
    stood for "Central Office Production Order". In this case the factory
    was given special instructions. The most famous COPOs were the '69 427
    cars produced for Don Yenko and the ZL1 aluminum 427 cars. In these
    cases the engines and other special equipment was installed on the
    production line and therefor recieved sequential serial numbers just
    like regular cars. The reason Yenko wanted the factory to install the
    engines was so that they would have a warranty and could be serviced at
    other dealerships. Most other COPOs were not nearly as glamorous. One
    example is the vans used by field service. They came from the factory
    with DEC logos and any special equipment that was called for.
    
    Don B
    
    

Maybe the 325 HP THD combo was a COPO and not an RPO in 67.  If it was an 
RPO, Ed wouldn't have had the difficulties getting the trans rebuilt.  It 
was done in the same dealership building where the car was delivered new by 
the mechanic who was the first registered owner of the vehicle and GM 
initially disallowed the warranty claim because they said it was the wrong 
tranny.  RPO wouldn't have put that kind of stigma on the car, COPO 
(couldn't remember that term) would have.

Hi,

I have a 67 Chevy Camaro - Convertible, with 350 4-bolt main.  Have been having a problem with
water/anti-freeze dripping after driving the car, and it sits for a while.  We thought there was
a leak in the radiator.. but have had it tested (Twice) .. and they swear that it's all set.
Also thought maybe the radiator hoses/clamps were not tight enough ... so we've replaced/re-tightened
those too.

I guess there's an overflow hose.. that just hangs down to the ground, so maybe that's where it's
coming from.  Was there an overflow bottle (to catch the overflow) back then?  Or what do people use
for that purpose?  I noticed some of the old cars at the car shows use a glass bottle, that looks
like a triangular coke bottle.

Any other ideas?

Thanks

Cathi P

    > Radiator problem?
    
    Hmmmm... ethylene glycol discussion.  :^)
    
    If you check your radiator (when it's cool), you'll see it's still
    full, so it's not a radiator problem.  Back in the old days, 
    engineers didn't think anything of peeing a little green overflow
    directly on the ground.  You can buy an expansion tank that mounts
    on your fender skirt to collect the overflow as opposed to having
    it pour directly on the ground.  If you look closely, the hose
    is probably routed somewhere so that the water will drip off of the 
    radiator mount making it look like the radiator leaking.  My 70 RS
    did this.
            
    MadMike

I'm trying to put a 68 Firebird convertible back on the road. It was originally
a 6 cylinder car. When I got the car the engine was missing. 

I picked up a parts car that has a '72 350 in it, but no exhaust manifolds.
Turns out the '72 heads were unique to that year. Headers won't work because
there are no bolt holes for the ends and no place on the heads to put them.

Looks like I have to do some searching and spend some money, so I was thinking
about just finding a 6 cylinder engine for the car. I've seen plenty of V8s
around, but no 6s. Does anyone have any idea where I could find a '68 Pontiac 6
for this car for a reasonable price?

Or does anyone have a potential source for a '68 V8 or heads for the one I have? 

Thanks

    Does it have to be a Pontiac 6 cylinder?
    I have a 250 from a Nova sitting around.
    
    MadMike

Wasn't that an OHC six?

    
    My '68  firebird had and OHC 6.
    
    /ab

    Before you shelf the '72 350 let me call a friend who has a pile of
    Poncho parts kicking around. If he doesn't have any manifolds he'll
    definitely know someone who does, probably a pile of heads too.
    
    Chris

RE .previous

It's my understanding that it was an overhead cam six. I also believe that it
was available with a 4 bbl carb, but I may be thinking of some other six.

Thanks for the offer of the Chevy six, but since the Pontiac six was somewhat
unique, I'd like to put a Pontiac six in the thing if I'm going to do it at all.
Since most everyone putting together an F-body wants the biggest engine they can
find, I think I'd have a pretty unique car if I can find an original Pontiac six
and all the miscellaneous parts.

If I decide to just 'throw something in there', I'll probably use a high perf
Chevy 350 that I built for my Suburban. Doing that means I'll probably have to
get a custom exhaust system and there will be a bunch of other little
oh-by-the-ways like Oh, by the way, the starter is on the other side of the
engine. Now I need either a real long battery cable or I have to relocate the
battery.

Nothing's ever simple, is it?

Chris;

Thanks for the offer to look for the '72 manifolds. That would really be the
easiest solution of all =, since I have the motor. transmission, drive shaft,
etc. for it. 

hr

    The Pontiac six cylinder offered in the Firebird was available
    with a 4 barrel carb and split exhaust (cast iron headers). They 
    performed very well for an inline engine. They are also somewhat
    unique, being only manufactured for, I believe, 2 years. This 
    option was called the "sprint" option, I think. I had one in
    1968, but that was long ago. I have seen the engines on occasion
    in wrecking yards. They also came in the Lemans in 1967. If you
    want to preserve the originality and uniqueness of this Firebird,
    find an overhead cam six. If you just want another Firebird, put
    anything in it. Sorry, where I said Lemans above, should have
    been Tempest or some other such name. 
    
    JC

    A buddy of mine had a Tempest...   A t56 or something with a six
    in it.  I'll tell ya, for a six, it scooted pretty good!
    

    I GOT ONE,  I have 2 running 1968 OHC Pontiac engines, one has over
    100k on it.  I bought it, surrounded by a Tempest 2dr. hdtp.  I would
    be interested in selling that engine for a very reasonable price. It is
    attached to a rebuilt 2 speed automatic (Powerglide clone).  If you are
    interested, send me mail.  By the way, the car is located in central
    MA.
    
                        Charlie

 Well, after 4 years and 11 months doing the restification on my '67
Firebird, it's done!!! Took it out this morning to get it inspected 
and all I can say is AWESOME. The 400 cubes, '66 tripower, M20 4 speed
and 3:90 gears make for one quick machine. Far quicker than my Monte
Carlo or my Z28. One thing for sure is technology sure was crude back then. 
Even with the WS6 steering box ( ended up with 2.25 turns lock to lock) and 
the power disc brake set-up ('71 Monte Carlo) it is not the most confortable 
car to drive, especially when compared with the '84 Z28. But, I didn't build 
it for comfort. It's truly a car from the musclecar era, the exhaust rumble, 
the smell of hydrocarbons, the uncomfortable seats..... I could go on and on. 
 After the drive I do need to sort out a couple of things. The alignment
needs a slight change, the clutch needs adjustment and the carbs need to be 
tweeked and rejetted. Maybe once she's broken in it'll be off the New England 
Dragway to see how she'll do in the quarter mile. 

 Next project: '69 El Camino 350 4 speed, 3:90 12 bolt

Chris Roche             1967 Firebird 400, tripower, 4 speed, 3:90
			1971 Monte Carlo 350, 4 speed, 3:36
			1984 Z28 HO, auto, 3:73

    

    Since yesterday was such a nice day and Tom Fisher was really pestering
    me to take my '67 Firebird out, we did. Saturdays drive was pretty
    sedate since it was damp out, yesterday's was downright hairy.
    This thing makes some serious power. Stepping into the throttle enough
    to activate the front and rear carbs under 40 mph is guaranteed to oblirate 
    the rear tires. Didn't push it much since it's only got 30 miles on the
    fresh mill. It'll be a while before I really get into the throttle.
    
    As Tom said "You built yourself one hell of an E-ticket ride"
    
    Chris

    Congrats Chris.
    
    Rich

    
    I'm looking for repro floor pans for a '76.  Anyone know any sources
    closer to Central Mass. than Competative in Warwick RI?
    
    Thanks!

Hi,

I think the name of the place is Camaro's Plus .. located in Manchester NH. I don't have the phone
number with me today, but I can get it at home tonight and bring it in tomorrow.  Anyways, I have
a 67 Camaro and have bought parts from them.  They've been very nice to deal with.  Had lots of parts
cars in the back yard, and a whole upstairs of the barn filled with parts. Last year I went up there to
look for something and they were restoring a 70? camaro for someone from the midwest who had it shipped
out to Manchester NH. It looked great.  Anyways, . you might want to give them a try.  If you don't
want to wait for the phone number, I'm sure information could give it to you.

Cathi

	Anyone have the build numbers for both the 67 and 68
Camaro SS ragtops? Maybe the book values, too?

	I spotted one for sale the other day, but didn't look to
see if it was a 67 or 68 (Yeah, I know how to tell). If it's really
an SS car, does that mean it's a big block?

thanks,

Rick

    SS can be either small block or big block.
    
    The small block had "louverd" chrome deals on the hood.  The BB
    had a "stack" type hood.  This is just the obvious stuff.  Obviously
    if it has a big block, but the wrong hood, you know somethings up.
    
    I guess the vin number would offer more info, such as the engine
    that came in it.  Also, there is a chassis tag, which describes the
    body, and options.  For example, if the letters DZ were on the
    tag, it was a Z/28.
    
    I'll try to get specifics on the 67 and 68 Camaro and post them.
    
    MadMike

    Mike,
    
    Are you sure on the hood chrome??? I thought it was the '67 model year
    SS cars that used the louvers and the '68 SS cars that had stacks.
    
    Jim

    The 67 had the louvers.  The big block came along in March (RPO L35).
    With the louvred hood.
    
    In 1968 the BB cars got the stack-type hood, while the SB kept
    the louvred hood. 
    
    MadMike

    I can't tell how many cars where SS's, but here's some more info:
    
    1967  25141 convertibles  /220906 total
    1968  20440 convertibles  /235147 total
    
    The SS option could be ordered on either the coupe, or the Rally
    Sport (hidden driving lights/trim).  If added onto the RS, the
    SS emblems were used.
    The SS included the hood, trim, underhood insulation, 14*6 wheels
    red strip tires and heavy suspension.
    
    In '67 the 396 got all the heavy stuff.  HD radiator, dual exhaust,
    HD clutch, axle, shocks....
    
    Most of this stuff will be gone/replaced by now, so you'll need to
    read the tag on the firewall (or thereabouts).  It describes the
    chassis.  I mentioned elsewhere in here, when I removed the
    rear seat from my Z/28 I found the origonal build sheet as it
    made its way down the assembly line.  
    
    Regards,
    MadMike

    
    1967 Camaro:  Total units SOLD 195,765.
    25141 Convertibles, SS installed on 34411 units 
    the SS350 (notice the 350, not 327) numbered 29270
    
    64842 Camaros were RS's which included 10675 convertibles.
    
    There were 81 RPO's and 41 Dealer options available on the '67 Camaro.
    Check the chassis tag.
    
    1968 Camaro total production was 235147, 27844 were SS's, 40979
    were RS's.  Total covertibles on all forms was 20440.

    Damn I want my '70 RS back.
    
    I found a '70 Z/28 for $3K and my wife hit me over the head with
    the paper.  
    
    I'm waiting and watching.  If I find a 70-72 RS, especially a Z/28
    It's mine.  Get outta my way y'all ect...

    
    
    Re: -1
    
      Dont' tell her, and buy it....just hide it where she won't find it...
    ....ahem...I tried that once, but it didn't work ...BUT hey you may
    have better Luck !!!
    
    

    HA, check this out.
    
    Once upon a time, my wife came home from work, and I ran out into
    the driveway and told her "DON'T PARK THERE!".
    
    "why not?"
    "er, ah.... you gotta help me go get my new car".
    <!!!!!!!!!!!!!>    (<--- she said bad things to me)
    
    I bought a Chevelle.  This one, not to mention looking funny sticking
    outta my rear, used up 6 lives.  My pool table used up 2, so that's
    8.  I bought a whole bunch of "other stuff" that I convinced her
    only used up .5, so I gotta run everything by the boss these
    days.  That means I can spend as much as I want on diapers and
    kiddy stuff.
    
    MadMike

    re : MadMike
    
      Ha ha ha ha ha hHA Ha.....That was Funny....Think I pissed in my
    Pants, and not to mention the coke that flew onto my  Workstation
    screen.....
    
     You should have argued that the chevelle was Definately on Worth
    at the Most 3 Lives...but Not 6 lives !!!
    
     Wymen' can't live with 'em...can't live without 'em.  What is real
    funny however is that when they see a old classic Car being held up
    with bandAids and bumper stickers, the motor all greasey with oil
    and sh*t, and the car in Primer of course where there are NO rot holes
    
      They see this jelopie and Frown and get pissed off because WE paid
    too much, have spent tooo much into the Old thang' to get it road
    worthy and ready for the 1st car Show.  They Hate it !
    
      BUT, when you take them to the Car Shows and People Compliment your
    car on How beautiful it looks, then you win a Trophy...THEN
    
     The car is now Hers and gets a Big Ego because now it's OUR car...
    
    Strange but True !
    
    /Bob
    

	Ah yea of generalizations!!!! For shame, for shame!

	I know members of the female persuasion that when gazing 
at that classic muscle car covered with primer, bondo and oil say 
things like, "Look at that! What beautiful lines. Some work and it
can really be a beauty....!".

Rick

    I think my wife was just pissed cause her car (FORD) caught on fire
    and burned up.  I don't know.  She's worried that if I buy another
    car I'll spend TONS of $$$$ "fixing it up", like I've done (do)
    to my Z/28.  She's probably right.
                                                    

	
	Got a closer look at the Camaro I mentioned a few replies
back...

	It's a '68, appears to be an original 396 SS ragtop. Seemed odd
that it had a column shifter for it's turbo 400. Pretty decent shape,
for a car that's almost 30 years old. Even still, a complete body job,
new top, some interior work makes the 7,500 asking price seem a little steep.
Supposedly, the motor and tranny are both recently rebuild. (add salt here!)

	What's it worth restored? 15-20k?

Rick

ps. Of course, the Superbird in the Want Ad last week for $69,000 would
look much better in my garage than *any* Camaro!

    I wouldn't buy it as an investment, at least not a quick investment.
    I have no idea how fast old musclecars turn, and stuff is only
    worth what someone will pay you.  You could get lucky and have
    some bozo give you $25K for it, or you can have it for years and not
    get more than a $10K offer.  Regardless of how much money you dumped
    into it.
    
    MadMike

    For Sale:
    
        1977 Camaro Z-28  Arizona car, never driven in the snow. 90% original,
        looks like new. Recently painted. No rust. New headliner, front seat
        covers, all else original. A limited number of these cars were built
        and very few exist with this much original content. 350 cu.in.,V-8, 4
        barrel standard engine. Automatic trans. AC. Silver with white/black
        interior. No extra chrome. Looks like when I drove it off the lot.
        Definitely a show car, runs like new. ~80K miles.
    
        Unique opportunity for the right buyer. I can't maintain it in the way
        it should be maintained so I am hoping to sell to someone who will
        "pamper" it.
    
        $9000. Can be seen in Littleton, MA.
    
    Debbie
    
    home phone: 508-486-3435 or mail JUMP4::JOY
    dtn: 276-8629 (don't call)