Conference napalm::musclecars

    
    
    	I had the opportunity of a lifetime the other day and blew it. I
    was considering taking my Firebird to work and took my Camry instead.
    While out at lunch, I was cruising one of the major thoroughfares in
    Denver and ended up side by side with a Viper R/T 10. One of two in the
    state; this one had Michigan manufacturer's plates. The other one was
    recently delivered to John Elway.
    
    	*Very* nice car...
    
    
    	Dave

    Dave, I don't understand. What "opportunity of a lifetime" did you
    blow?        8^)
    
    
    Steve

    
       Dave....With the number of Vipers on the road in this
    area.....(probably the 2 you mentioned) I had basically the same
    opportunity beside the light whilst on my V-MAX; The guy turned out to
    be a wimp! Wouldn't even spin the tires. What a waste of money and
    machine!
    
    -john

    
    
    	re: .2
    
    	To demonstrate that Musclecars are a thing of the past.
    
    	re: .3
    
    	That's my impression...
    
    	Dave

Dave, have you run it through the lights yet? I personally think that damn
near *anything* would have its full share of trouble with a Viper.

Bruce

Bruce,

Take my word for it.  Dave's Firebird is quite quick.  He took me for a little 
spin in it this past spring and it is most impressive.  

My Vega will run mid 13s at sea level (basis for comparison) and my guess is 
that Dave's beast would be capable of 12s if it hooks up.  :-)

			  .................>I personally think that damn
>near *anything* would have its full share of trouble with a Viper.		

Just quoting myself, here. It's this old vs new issue again. I have
absolutely zero doubt that Dave's car makes great amounts of horsepower,
and even greater amounts of torque, but it sure ain't easy to run a 12
second quarter with street tires and a less-than-optimum chassis.

Car & Driver ran a new Shelby Cobra (from Shelby hisself) against a Viper,
and the Shelby whipped the Viper by several tenths in the quarter. However,
when you look at the specs, the Shelby was absolutely optimized for the
quarter, with 4.11 gears (instead of the "normal" 3.55s) and had the
absolute top-drawer side oiler 427. No slam at Shelby, he knew what he was
up against.

Bottom line: With a more normal 427 Cobra configuration, the cars would've
been closer together than half past six. I am not a particular fan of the
Viper, but *that* impressed me with the viability of the package that the
Dodge guys put together.

Be that as it may, the real reason I asked Dave the question is genuine
curiosity. Furthermore, if the answer is that he hasn't run it through
the lights yet, I'm applying gentle pressure to urge him to do so. After all,
that's what the car is all about, and bragging rights only come with timeslips,
where I come from :-).

Finally, picture me standing up, thumbs firmly hooked in suspenders, rocking
back and forth on my heels, saying something like: "Yup. She runs pretty good,
all right. Yup, yup, yup......."

The cause for that unseemly braggadocio is that I whupped *another* ZR1 this
weekend up at Epping, mainly due to his inability to read the lights and hook
up :-). My timeslips aren't anything to make big noises about, but they don't
represent "potential". Like yours, they're reality.


"Yup, yup, yup...... :-)"

Bruce

    
    However Bruce.......Would you doubt the fact that my bragging about
    My V-MAX blowing the doors off a Viper.....ER, a Potential viper!
    (^;   I really hope to hell that something other than old farts without
    intestinal fortitude drive these cars.....Life will be soooooo
    boring.
    
    -john

I stand corrected.

Prolly would've been safer if'n I'd said anything with four wheels and street
tires would have trouble with a Viper.

Hey, Dave, I'm not putting you down, though. I just figure it will take some
study and experience to make such a potent combination actually work right
in a standing start quarter mile.

......and speaking of old farts, my own tendency is to pussyfoot around on
the street, and not bother with the odd 5.0 or whatever. The exception
might be if I found something interesting (like an LT1 Vette, for instance)
at a light, and there was plenty of room, nobody around, and it looked to
be dead safe. I haven't found that situation in the last eight years, though.
The couple of contests I have found myself in during those years were from a
highway roll.

We old farts just can't help ourselves, but it takes something special to
get us going :-).

Bruce

            
    
    	You're right that until I get some times, all is unsubstantiated 
    speculation. I wasn't trying to say "Wow, my car is so cool that I know
    that it will blow the doors off anything" If I took that position, I'd
    be full of $hit.
    
    	Rather, I was indicating that it's my impression that a Viper isn't
    much compared with any traditional musclecar. Does anyone have the
    times for a Viper?
    
    	Anyway, all this talk may get me out to the strip yet. I was hoping
    to get some tires first because although my suspension is moderately
    optimized, all that happens when I put my foot in it is that the
    rear-end heads for the gutter. Mabey some traction juice would help...
    
    	Dave

I've never seen a Viper run, but the dozen or so road tests from various
publications cluster around 12.8 or so, at around 110 mph. This applies
to both the pre-production prototypes and the current production run of
cars. This is in just drive-it-in-and-run-it form.

There has never been a "traditional" musclecar even close to that league.

Traditional musclecars ran like today's 5.0 Mustangs and 5.0/5.7 Camabirds,
meaning mid to upper 14s. At most dragstrips, a 14.0 meant you were in very
serious contention for a pure-stock trophy. Generally, a 14.0 or 13.9 was
possible for those folks who studied the matter and messed about with a 
certain amount of intelligence and experience - pretty much like today. Only
low production (I.E. - LS6s, Hemis) were potentially faster, just like today's
low-production (I.E. - LT1 Vettes, SLP Firebirds) are.

I have been paying close attention to this for more than thirty years, and, let
me tell you, that Viper is *fast*.

Bruce

    
    Since the Viper had a factory rating of 400 H.P. and the ZR1 had 385
    the folks at the blue-bowtie upped the HP on the Vette for `92.  Well
    looks like the Horsepower races are off to a running start `cuz the 
    "NEW" Dodge motor company upped the HP for `93 in the Viper to a
    familiar sounding digit of 440.  
    	Just a lil' fire starter, the Viper does run ONLY 3.08:1 gears on
    the back side, maybe if they'd bump the gears up a little it'd give
    some street bikes a decent run....???
    
    	Heres a few facts that just may pull a few earlier notes closer
     to reality!!!!!!
    
    	  A "traditional" HEMI cars ran between 13.5 and 14.0 on an average.
    They did weigh in from a Challenger (3880) to a Charger (4035) more 
    than the Vipers 3476 lbs.  Whereas the Shelby Cobra did only weigh
    2529 almost 1000 pounds less than the Viper.
    
    	Let's face it there's NOTHING traditional about a Shelby Cobra!!
    Nor a Viper!!  In a nut shell, Its the best high performance, straight
    forward, non multi-valve, non turbo, lease expensive, American built,
    seat of the pants racer, killer lookin (I.M.O.O.), Vette dethroaning 
    car to come along . . . 
    
    			any questions ???
    
    Diz

>	Just a lil' fire starter, the Viper does run ONLY 3.08:1 gears on
>    the back side, maybe if they'd bump the gears up a little it'd give
>    some street bikes a decent run....???

Unlikely. This car has more than enough torque to overpower the drive wheels in
first gear, so a set of 4.11s or whatever would be of only marginal value in
the first 100 feet. Gears don't mean too much after initial launch, so the
car would *not* be transformed. Bikes will still destroy it in a drag
race - even little bikes. "600s" now can run low to mid 11s, with an expert
aboard.

On the other hand, a Viper and Shelby Cobra 427, each with a set of 3.55s out
back, would be fun to watch......

Bruce

    ....its only tenths of second away from the Cobra and a second and a 
    few tenths away the middle of the road bikes, lets face it for the 
    price of that kind of car its CLOSE !!!!  Then look at the car, then 
    look at the car CRUISIN' to work at 180 +. . . at say Hmmmmm 3600 rpms
    where the Cobra or ANY bikes engine at 180 would be at or past redline
    or in the Cobras case WAY past redline!!!!!  All depends what `cha 
    wanna use it for, if you wanna go, 1/4 mi, STOP, go, 1/4 mi, STOP get 
    a Cobra for $150,000 .   
    
    	If you wanna go, get a Viper!!   $55,000  BTW this is a MUSCLECAR
    note.  Just apples to apples the, Vipers "virtual" redline top end is
    300 mph, getting it there is up to you!!!!!
    
    	I'm just sayin you can " My fathers car goes faster than your 
    fathers car!!" all day long, but, this car is a great all around
    performance vehicle, the best in a long time, for the times, price,
    and design!!!!  Nuthin' can compare to it!!! Not even to mention 
    its "DETUNED ! ! !" meets emission standards and gets 22 mpg on the
    highway.  Whaddaya WANT ????  Its a GREAT car so put a Dodge in your
    garage!!!  Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
    
    Dizzi  

    Dizzi,
    The suggested retail price is $55k.......but the dealers have marked
    everyone up to $150k
    
    
    TMW

    RE: -1
    
    150K for the 92's yes, but 93's also?? Dodge is supposed to produce
    more in 93 (aprox 3500).  So maybe the dealers won't be so greedy? 
    
    
    /steve

Re: 14

Top speed on the 400 hp models is between 160 and 165 mph - or around 10
mph slower than a ZR1 and 928 Porsche, and roughly equal to the current 911
series Porsches and LT1 Vettes. The extra 40 hp that you've mentioned would
likely be good for another 5 mph or so - maybe even 6 or 7.

In short, the car just ain't that fast.

It's a *much* better 1/4 mile car than it is a top speed car - which is
*exactly* what the engineers had in mind; Namely, a modern Cobra.

BTW. The limited top speed is due to aerodynamics, rather than lack of power.
Perhaps the rumored hard top version will fix that.

Bruce

    
    	...the Cobra is quick but not fast.  Equipped only with a 4-sp 
    tranny and 4.11:1 gears top out before a 6-sp with 3.08:1. At 60mph
    the Viper is at 1200rpm, 300rpms less than the ZR1 6-sp.  At 0.50
    co. drag, it can't effect a 400hp car like that.  
    	The Vipers proto top speed rating is at 165mph.  Actual speed 
    depends on the driver.  Shelby himself said he had the thing up to 
    180 on a few dry runs around INDY.  Lets put it this way its neck 
    and neck with the ZR1, check out the 1992 Motor Trend issue "Viper
    vs. Vette" damn close!!!  However, the Vette is at max engine 
    potential and the Viper is detuned or only just beginning.  Not to 
    mention when placed side by side the Vette almost does appear to 
    "fade away".  Vipers appearance, performance, and price leaves a LT-1
    or 911 down a notch.  Hey, if you go by the book, its top speed is 
    165, its also $55,000 and we both know these arn't true!!!
    
    	In another artical in M.T., they ran a stock `66 Cobra down the 
    1/4 in 12.8 sec.  Sound familiar???  It had 3.54:1 gears.  Hmmmmmm???
    
    	It just seems that something comes along that people can't accept 
    as a Vette/Porsche outperformer, and believe that Dodge makes it.  
    Thats right!!!! Number #3 car company.
    
     Eventhough I don't drink, here's to the Viper, dethroning the "King of
    the Hill" and letting those that have been comfortable, break a sweat
    and give them a chance to get they're fingernails dirty for a change. 
    
  Credit where credit is due.
    
    Diz 

>    	...the Cobra is quick but not fast.  Equipped only with a 4-sp 
>    tranny and 4.11:1 gears top out before a 6-sp with 3.08:1.

Agreed. Even with the "right" gearing for top speed, it's unlikely that the
Cobra would be any faster than the Viper.

>                                                             At 60mph
>    the Viper is at 1200rpm, 300rpms less than the ZR1 6-sp. 

Immaterial. Both cars top out in *5th* gear, not 6th. Top gear is only there
for fuel economy, and "ultra-relaxed" (read: lugging) cruising. They can't even
get close to top speed in 6th.

>                                                                At 0.50
>    co. drag, it can't effect a 400hp car like that.

I have no idea what this means. If it means that aerodynamics doesn't mean
much when you have this much power, you need to research the subject a bit.
As an example, the NASCAR Grand National cars were lapping Daytona at 210 mph
awhile back, with around 700 hp. Now that restrictor plates have them down to
around 450 hp, they're "only" going in the 190s. Aerodynamics means a *bunch*
more than horsepower when you're searching for a few more mph.

>	The Vipers proto top speed rating is at 165mph.  Actual speed 
>    depends on the driver.  Shelby himself said he had the thing up to 
>    180 on a few dry runs around INDY.

Nosir. It is *not* up to the driver. Shelby *may* have had one up to 180 at
Indy, but only on the speedo or tach, which is a bunch less reliable than
electronic timing through a speed trap, or even a radar gun. The fact is, the
tested cars are in the 160s, which turns out to be around ten mph short of what
the same folks get out of a ZR1 or Porsche 928.

>                                        Lets put it this way its neck 
>    and neck with the ZR1, check out the 1992 Motor Trend issue "Viper
>    vs. Vette" damn close!!!

I assume this means that we are in agreement after all, that a ZR1 has a
higher top speed. Individual results vary depending on car-to-car variations in 
performance, but I have never seen a comparison test where a ZR1 *hasn't* had
a higher top speed.

>                               However, the Vette is at max engine 
>    potential and the Viper is detuned or only just beginning.

I think that, ultimately, the Viper engine would be capable of *significantly*
more power than the LT5, mainly due to its cubic inch capacity. However, you
should know that the LT5 has the potential for gobs more power than it now makes,
but Chevrolet has to bring all their cars in without a gas-guzzler tax, due to a
corporate edict. John Lingenfelter sells a massaged ZR1 package that makes 455
hp, due to some tender porting and polishing of heads and exhaust. The only
non-stock parts in the package are titanium(!) valve retainers, installed
because the new power peak is at 7200 rpm. He gets another 20 hp by going to an
aftermarket (full cats retained) exhaust, if the customer so desires. Reeves
Callaway gets 475 hp out of his ZR1 package, but my understanding is that he
goes with slightly warmer cams, as well as porting and polishing. Both kits are
fully smog certified, but the cars would be subject to gas guzzler taxes if
Chevrolet sold the cars this way, as opposed to aftermarket installations.

>                    Vipers appearance, performance, and price leaves a LT-1
>    or 911 down a notch.

I agree regarding performance, except for top speed. Appearance is in the eye
of the beholder. Probably, the future Vipers will sell for around list price or
slightly below, which means that they'll be on par with a Porsche 911 RS America,
and a fair bit more than an LT1.

>                          Hey, if you go by the book, its top speed is 
>    165, its also $55,000 and we both know these arn't true!!!

The top speed *is* accurate, on average, and the price probably will be, given
time.

>          It just seems that something comes along that people can't accept 
>    as a Vette/Porsche outperformer, and believe that Dodge makes it.  

I don't know a soul who thinks that the Viper *isn't* a "Vette/Porsche
outperformer". *I* certainly think that the Viper kicks butt and takes names.
Remember, I'm the guy who took Dave to task re his assumptions on this car, and
I brought up the Cobra/Viper comparison test as proof that the Dodge is an
authentic bad-a$$. I just had the temerity to say that the car isn't, and wasn't
designed to be, a top speed killermobile. It emphatically is *not* a top speed
killermobile, and lust for the car won't change that fact.

BTW, I in no way want to tout the ZR1. The only thing it does better than the
Viper (from a performance standpoint) is that it goes a little faster. The only
place this would matter would be on the autobahns in Germany, anyway. Not only
is the Viper a quicker car, it most likely would feel even quicker than the
difference would suggest, since the Vette is down significantly on
torque.

>      Eventhough I don't drink, here's to the Viper, dethroning the "King of
>    the Hill" and letting those that have been comfortable, break a sweat
>    and give them a chance to get they're fingernails dirty for a change.

I don't tipple much myself, but, I'll drink to that :-). I don't lust for one
the way you do, but I think it's a hell of a car.

Bruce

re: .18
>> Shelby himself said he had the thing up to 180 on a few dry runs 
>> around INDY. 

I take that to mean that ol' Shel's heart transplant was 100% successful?
Maybe he should'a had it done years ago, and wouldn't have had to quit his
driving career?   8^)

BTW, I attended SAAC II in Hershey PA in 1977.  There were 40 *real* Cobras
there.  A 6000 mile original 427 Cobra was for sale for $40K, and everyone
thought that was outrageous. What a bargain that would be today. Occasionally,
someone would leave the hotel and go for a BLAST, where they could be seen
for quite some distance from the meet site.  A 427 Cobra at full tilt is
quite a sound and sight!  A Viper may be faster, but it'll never replace 
those memories from 15 years ago in Hershey.

Rick

    
    
    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... (fell asleep reading .19)
    
    
    HEY!  Has anyone seen the proto Viper COUPE?!  It's floating around at
    different car shows across the country.  Only three words to describe
    it:   HOT!! HOT!! HOT!!!!
    
    The one I've seen is blue with white stripes (very much like the 427
    Cobras).  I was absolutely blown away by it's looks.  One thing I
    always disliked about the Viper is the butt-ugly front end.  On the
    coupe, they had the lower 1/3rd of the ~grille~ turned from the
    vertical flat to a spoiler.  It made it look 100% better.  Beautiful,
    beautiful car.  Put my name on the list, I want one of those babies!!
    
    As for the previous arguments/discussions:  who cares if the top speed
    is 160 or 170?  How often are any of us running such speeds?  It is
    definitely a muscle car so who cares if it's the best or not?  And,
    I find it rediculous that some people think you're a wimp if you're
    not into racing every Tom, Dick, and Harry that thinks he's got a
    fast ride.  If you were doing that, you'd be racing at every stop
    light!  And lastly, who'd want to waste their time racing bikes?  Me?
    Well, while you guys are trying to figure these things out, I'll be
    picking up all of the little blonde babes who think my new Viper Coupe
    is "cute"!  HA-HA-HA!!
    
    
    	Hammer. 

    The Viper Coupe is the cover car in March's Automobile rag. It is
    one pretty car, very reminisent of the Cobra Coupe. The article is
    pretty good. Every panel had to be reworked in some way, exhaust
    exits from rear but the side exhaust look is retained. They only built
    one as a "styling exercise". But with Chrysler you never know what will
    come next..
    
    Chris

    I went to the New England MoPar Show that Pappa's Dodge sponsers at its
    new loacation (Lime Rock Ct.) a couple of weekends ago and saw the new
    Viper Coupe. It was on a trailer hooked to the Viper V10 RAM. Nice
    package. I liked the RAM better....  8^)

    /steve

	I just picked up a paper today and a place somewhere near Boston
	had Vipers to lease or buy...


	$58,500 to buy

	or 

	$2,200 down and $898/month for 27 months to lease....


					Mike

    Don't forget the buy-out at the end of the lease.
    
Stan