Conference napalm::commusic_v1

>     1.  When I go buy something I like to "test drive" it. How do
>I test drive an electronic piano I don't know how to play?

Take someone with you who can play. They should be able to tell you if an
instrument has a reasonable playing action. As to what it sounds like, you will
be the best judge of that, and you don't have to know how to play to know if it
sounds good to you.

>     2. With all the talk (argument) around touch, how do I know
>what I'll like before I've played with it a while (a bit of a catch
>22)?

See above.

>     3. How much money could I reasonably expect to pay for:
>          - 88 full-sized keys
>          - good sound
>          - midi
>          - reasonable feel (yes, I know it's not the same but ...)
>          - some effects would be nice
>      (Korg, Rolland, Yamaha have been suggested to me)
>     Would I be wise to get 76 keys instead?

Hard to give a definitive answer to this. Not only do you have several different
manufacturers to choose from, but each one makes different ranges of instrument
to suit different pockets. Plus the fact that individual music stores will offer
their own deals to try to sell you something. Shop around is the only answer.

>     4. How does one find a good instructor?

By personal recommendation. Hunt around for someone who has a kid taking lessons.
Better still, look for an adult who is taking lessons, and ask them if they
would recommend their teacher unreserverdly.

>     5. What is the most logical alternative to sheet music (which
>I can't read)?

Learn to read it. There _is_ no logical alternative. I note that you mentioned
Braille - do you have some kind of visual impairment? If not, don't worry too
much that you can't read music now. It's like a foreign language - it looks
utterly daunting and meaningless until you start to work on it. The effort that
you will invest will be repaid a million times over. Learning to read music
will give you instant access to several centuries of other peoples' musical
invention.

Hope this helps a little.


Chris

Hi,

	Thanks a lot for your input.  I esentally agree with all of it.  Time,
however, for some clearing up.

	First of all, I've been told that there is a very large price jump from
76 keys to 88 keys and that I'm not likely to need the extra 12 keys for a long
time.  Given these two issues, 76 keys may be a reasonable alternative.  It's
certainly time to start hitting the music stores.
>
>     5. What is the most logical alternative to sheet music (which
>I can't read)? ...
>
	Ok, since several of you have asked, I'm not afraid of learning to read
music!  If I could, I would.  If I could, I would have long ago.  Unfortunately,
that is not an option because I am virtually totally blind and even the best OCR
technology I know of (which I couldn't afford anyway) won't read music.  Braille
music really is extremely difficult to read.  This is not just my view of the
situation, it's the view of many accomplished blind musisians who find it easier
to play by ear than by using braille music.  Of all the many braille codes, the
music code is doomed in the future!  Add to the fact that it's very hard to
read the fact that there's very little available in braille music.  Add to that
the fact that there are very few people who know it or can teach it or know
where you can go to learn it.  You get the picture...

	I was just thinking... If I got a simple midi setup would it be possible
to have somebody (the instructor) play the piece and then I could play it back
note by note and pick it up that way.  It might be a bit of a drag at first,
(slow etc) but it might go a long way toward improving my ability to play by
ear.

                                     John

After *many* notes from "beginners-with-questions-about-getting-started," I
think you've added the first new twist in quite a while- congrats!

I worked with a visually-impaired fellow for quite a while, and we often
discussed the issue of computing for this class of users. If *that* problem were
solved, it might make yours a bit easier (then again, might just make it more
complex...)

It would seem that working on your ability to play by ear would be the best
route, IMHO. I've heard that this is the main thrust of the Suzuki approach,
though I have no direct experience with it. Perhaps looking for a teacher who
utilizes this method (or otherwise concentrates on "ear training" as a
fundament of teaching) would be your best bet.

Good luck-

Bob

>
> After *many* notes from "beginners-with-questions-about-getting-started," I
> think you've added the first new twist in quite a while- congrats!
>
	Oh yeah, count on me for botching up the works...

	The problem of 'computing for this class of users.' has been solved in
various ways for various prices via various pieces of hardware, with various
degrees of success (sounds like a summary of much of this notes file :-).  For
instance, I'm writting this note.  I've been reading parts of this conference.
I do computing all day!  Graphics are still a problem, and I suspect that MIDI
software probably tends to be graphical, but that's an entirely different (and
as you suggest) more complex issue.
>
> It would seem that working on your ability to play by ear would be the best
> route, IMHO. I've heard that this is the main thrust of the Suzuki approach,
> though I have no direct experience with it. Perhaps looking for a teacher who
> utilizes this method (or otherwise concentrates on "ear training" as a
> fundament of teaching) would be your best bet.
>
	A good suggestion, I'll look into that when I start that hunt.

                                     John

John-

Depending on exactly what degree of compute-ability you have acquired, and how
tied (if at all) it is to specific software, maybe you *are* within reach of
more complex alternatives (lucky you...).

The enhancements of which I'm aware to aid visually-impaired users are based on
audio translation of text output on the screen. I've seen occasional discussion
of touch-based output devices (sort of "one pin per pixel" matrices of rods),
I didn't think they were practical as of yet.

Depending on what platform you're running on and how generic your "non-visual
enhancements" are, it's vaguely possible that a computer-based sequencer could
form part of your training environment. This is a vague notion at best, but
depending on your "druthers" it could be an interesting/fruitful avenue for
exploration.

Bob

    One thing that comes to mind is that you might consider using some of
    those "minus one" recordings.  These are recordings where there is one
    instrument missing.  Could be that an instructor could work with you on
    that.  Having a synth, you wouldn't be limited to just playing piano by
    ear.  You could take advantage of recordings where the missing
    instrument is a violin, a trumpet or whatever.
    
    Steve

Hi,

	Re: the last couple

	To briefly clarify the state of access technology that I use at home, it
would be fairly safe to assume that a program that runs without putting graphics
on the screen would be accessible to me.  I use an IBM pc clone.  I have some
Braille technology at home (although it's somewhat old by now) and I have some
speech access software (which I hate, but it works).

	I spoke with a blind friend of mine who is a pretty good piano player
and who needs access to music (she doesn't play by ear).  She had her instructor
read the music onto tape and, after each bit of music (I don't remember how she
defined a "bit") the instructor would play it.  This would work, but I mean
these people get payed for a living and their time could doubtless be better
used.  She wasn't too turned on by my MIDI suggestion.  She said that she gets a
lot of fingering information from her approach which would not be available
through the midi approach.

	I was given the name of a guy in Mass who has done a great deal of midi
work and who might have some suggestions.  I'll have to try and get in touch
with him.

	The plot thickens...

                                     John

    Now there is an interesting product idea:  a MIDI file player that
    reads the notes to you through a speech synthesizer.  Parameters
    for how many measures to read at once, etc.

>	I was just thinking... If I got a simple midi setup would it be possible
>to have somebody (the instructor) play the piece and then I could play it back
>note by note and pick it up that way.  It might be a bit of a drag at first,
>(slow etc) but it might go a long way toward improving my ability to play by
>ear.
    
    John,
    
    I was thinking about this and it occurred to me that you might be
    better off with a dedicated sequencer.
    
    These typically have a particular fairly simple keypad layout (which
    might make things easier) and have something like a 2 line LCD display
    (i.e. no graphics).   I would think that if there was/is a way for you
    to read the display you'd be better off with one of these.
    
    Now of course, if there's not a way you aren't but I wonder how hard
    it would be to take the input to the LCD and feed it into some sort
    of system that would allow you to read it.  Of course, we're talking
    about custom hardware now...
    
    Am I making any sense?
    
    	db

    The MC-500 might be such a beast. Although it does have a display,
    and an "alpha" dial, the entire thing is menu driven and the alpha
    wheel can be by-passed by using the 10-key pad...
    
    Once the keystokes are memorized, the display provides nothing more
    than verification.
    
    It will also allow you to "step thru" passges to hear what notes
    were played...
    
    Edd

    re: .8
    
    GREAT IDEA!  Perhaps someone should propose such a tool!  No reason why
    Digital shouldn't be interested...
    
    Steve

    There is plenty of reason why Digital would not be interested.  We do
    not sell to that kind of market, have any marketing people that
    understand it, or any sales channels that can reach it.

Hi,
>
>     There is plenty of reason why Digital would not be interested.  We do
>     not sell to that kind of market, have any marketing people that
>     understand it, or any sales channels that can reach it.
>
	Actually, we do sell to "that kind of market."  (see the latest PCSG
catalog for a list of adaptive technology sold by Digital).

	I'd really rather stick to the pc with MIDI board approach.  I've
already got the pc.  Big cost savings I'd assume.  I'd rather put the bucks into
a good keyboard rather then have to split them up and get increasingly high
tech.  Besides, LCD displays are not accessible.

	I wasn't really thinking about having a program read the MIDI files back
using speech, although that's certainly a good option that probably should be in
there.  I was more thinking of being able to play the file note by note so that
I can find the notes as I go.  I can always have the system play the whole
piece, or a group of measures, if I want to hear timing etc.

	Most (virtually all) adaptive technology is built around the IBM pc and
it's clones.  That's what I've got at home.  I know the sounding board is fairly
inexpensive, don't know how much the MIDI options costs.  I really don't know
how flashy a controller it is, but I can't imagine I'd need anything all that
high tech to do what I'm looking to do.

	In short, I'm really working on the keep it simple approach.  Actually,
I'm not really against having a MIDI file read via speech, I just never thought
of it that way.  How complex are the files?  Is this a reasonable thing to do or
is it a big deal.  WIll I be missing information from the sheet music that would
be important?

                                     John

    MIDI files do not capture sheet music, so translating a MIDI file
    back into a speech version of one would be a bit tricky.
    
    I have seen book-reading machines for the blind that have commands for
    repeat-word, next word, full speed, spell it out, and so on.
    A PC based sequencer with functions like that would do it.  Kind
    of a step-time feature during playback.  Or you could just try
    setting the tempo to real slow.

OK, I've thought a lot about this and may be interested in seeing if I can 
get a project sponsored.

I work in External Research and have done a lot of work on projects for the 
audio-impaired.  Re .12: Digital indeed IS interested in this market, invests
LOTS of bucks and sees good payoff.  The market is small but we manage to
have a strong presence through projects done externally.  Particularly the 
User Interface A/D group supports work in this area.  The budget is small but,
through clever application and choice of projects we manage to get 
significant return on investment.

The system that I could envisage would involve three parts (maybe four) and 
would be as well used by anyone wanting to learn music as well as the visually 
impaired.  In particular, in my very classical musical background I never
"trained" my ear as well as I might like making improvisation a very difficult
task for me.  Audio training rather than visual training might be attractive
in learning many musical techniques.

So here are my three (or maybe four) parts:

	1) A fully midi campatible keyboard.  It should support more or
	   less any keyboard as long as it has full midi in/out

	2) A pc (any flavor eventually but will stick with MS-DOS in the
	   beginning to keep it simple) with full midi capability

	3) DECvoice

	4) Optional fourth is a CDreader to provide the store of 
	   preprogrammed music sequences for learning.

The computer can "direct" the learning, giving instructions through the
DECvoice unit.  For example, to start out, the computer could "play" a
middle "C" and tell the student to locate and play back the note.  Slowly
the student could learn to build up chords, could listen to chords and name
them, learn to play sequences, etc.  The computer can "listen" to the student
and make corrections.

What it would take:

	1) A clever pc programmer

	2) A person skilled in the teaching of music through non-traditional
	   means (i.e. teaching by ear as is often used for starting students
	   in Japan)

	3) A champion

I am looking into this.  Suggestions?

ccb

I've seen ads for several such programs in some magazine- can't recall if it was
a PC-type or music mag, but I *think* it was Electronic Musician.

Bob

    
    
    I've seen ads for "ear-trainers", but I've never seen any notice for a
    piece of software that would lead somebody through a MIDI sequence.
    
    re: Cheryl - the problems with CD-ROM right now are that: (1) they're
    not universal - not every PC has one, and (2) the production costs
    inhibit little software vendors (and shareware types) from getting into
    it.
    
    DECvoice seems to be a required element, however.  Before you go off
    and build some neat gadget, however, you might want to do a little more
    market research.  There are several levels of functionality you can
    provide to the visually-impaired.
    
    This training device is definitely something that could help, but I've
    been asked by a visually impaired couple for pointers to a
    computer-based sequencer (they're currently using a dedicated Roland
    thing) that they can use with a speech interface.  So, there's another
    level of interest past training.  BTW, if anyone knows of a
    non-graphically oriented sequencer, I'd like to hear about it.
    

    I have a couple of ideas.  Both involve a new type of keyboard but
    otherwise existing software.
    
    First, lets create a keyboard that has keys that provide tactile
    response.  That is, let's have keys that can be set up to vibrate when
    "played" from a sequencer.  You can tell which key is active by feeling
    it vibrate.  As far as the sequencer is concerned, this feature is
    treated the same as any other SGU.  Each key would probably be vibrated
    by a "buzzer" only when the key is in its "up" position.  Mechanically, 
    this may be relatively easy to do, I think.
    
    This feature can be used to have the sequencer "play" the keyboard (on
    one MIDI channel) at the same time that it plays a corresponding "real"
    synth (on another channel).  Thus, a person can feel each key vibrate as 
    the tune plays.  They may also be able to hear the approximate position
    of a key as it vibrates.  But, if they play along the vibration on a 
    particular key is defeated as soon as the key is pressed.  If they don't 
    know exactly where the keys are that are vibrating, they can rest fingers 
    on several keys until the "right" vibrating key is found.  I should think 
    this would be a very fast way to learn to play tunes "by feel".  It may
    also allow a person who is both blind and deaf to learn to play the
    piano.
    
    Second, why not have sequencer software that is controlled though this
    special keyboard?  That is, they keyboard can send note messages to a PC 
    to control its sequencer.  You might assign one key on the scale that is 
    used to toggle between sequencer and regular keyboard response.  This
    might be, for example, the top key on the right.  By hitting this key,
    the user toggles between using the keys to send note information and
    using the keys to send sequencer information.  
    
    The advantage to this is that with the keyboard set to sequencer mode,
    keys can vibrate according to functions that are active.  For example,
    there might be 8 keys which vibrate according to whether or not each of
    8 tracks is active and playing.  Hitting these keys would cause the
    corresponding tracks to alternate between playing and not playing as
    they would operate with a dedicated sequencer.  This is like with my
    MC50 where active buttons each have an LED that lights to let you know
    the status of the machine.  I'm sure other creative uses could be made
    for controlling a sequencer along these lines.  
    
    By using synthesized speech, the sequencer software could supplement
    information that is "felt" on the keyboard.
    
    
    
    Steve

    Ooops ... I meant that you'd have a new keyboard but would otherwise
    use existing hardware.  The main effort would be software once the
    keyboard was designed.
    
    Steve

	Well, this is interesting.  If you needed only voice output, the
	Amiga computer has that already, using a special voice driver on the
	general 8-bit digital-to-analogue convertor, for the four-hundred-fifty
	dollar base price already installed.
	I have written MIDI software, both totally graphical and text-based.
	It might be interesting to read out a MIDI file to voice, but 
	it's not clear how much of a problem that would solve.  No one 
	reads MIDI files at all until they are in an editor/sequencer anyway.
	I guess you need a MIDI TECO.
tom

I have a very different questions here.

For several days now I am looking all through this conference and couldn't find
enough info describing the basic tools and terms used in this  conference.

I am not at all niter in the PC world, nor in music, but my both sons play
well on several instruments and want to get now in the world of commusic.
We have DX7 at home and plan on buying a 386DX system with midi etc.

What I need is a clarification of the basic terms and description of what are
the basic instruments used and capabilities of the software. I need that in
order not to look completely fool when I go to the store.

Please do not just tell me all of this is discussed somewhere else, as I spent
like 10 hours already trying to become smarter looking through the conference.


1. Samplers: What are those? Is there a sampler that makes the samples and also
   a sampler player? I saw the 1911 note comparing samplers, I didn't see the
   TG55 in it, Isn't the TG55 a sampler? How does it relate to the samplers
   mentioned in the above note?                                                  

2. Sequencers: what are does and what are their function? What is the difference
   between stand alone boxes and PC plug in's/just SW with Midi etc' ( I am not
   sure I even know the questions...)

3. Midi interface cards: Please explain to me the meaning and the functions
   of:  Tape Sync'
   	SMPTE
	Any other important stuff I need to pay attention to?

4. Sound cards: What is the function of the Sound Blaster? Will it replace
   for me the need of a Midi interface card as well? What other cards are 
   available and how do they compare to the above?

5. On SW, My son went to a store where the sales person told him that if he
   wants a serious SW that enables editing notes on the screen and playing
   back and forth from the keyboard, he needs to have a MAC (not IBM).
   Is that true? What kind of SW that enables this kind of capability is
   available on the PC compatibles?

thanks, avraham

    I can answer parts of some of these:
    
    Sequencer:  This is a piece of software or hardware which automatically
    sends midi signals to a midi instrument to make it play.  I say
    "automatically" because a lot of people use MIDI just as a connection
    between their keyboards and a sound generating unit (SGU, i.e. a
    synthesizer).  The sequencer allows you to record songs, edit them, and
    play them back.  There are both hardware and software versions of
    these.  The software is probably more flexible for the money (if
    you have a computer already), but if you are doing "gigs", it means you
    have to haul the computer along with you.  So called "music
    workstations", btw, have sequencers, keyboards, and SGUs all built into
    a single unit, including disk drives and stuff.  Music Workstation is
    not a technical term, btw.  Lots of other things not called that have
    those capabilities.
    
    Midi Interface:  SMPTE is a form of tape sync.  SOmeone can explain in
    more detail, but you need it to record layers on tape...i.e. to first
    tape some parts from your SGU and then go back and tape some additional
    parts in perfect synchronization.  I think that with SMPTE, the tape
    sends a signal to the sequencer through the midi interface to keep the
    sequencer in sync with the tape.
    
    Other important things about the midi interface:  What is it compatible
    with?  The most common "standard" is MPU401 (for IBM-type machines
    anyway).  Almost any piece of midi s/w will support it.  Recently,
    though, there has been a trend away from 401 toward other interfaces. 
    More and more s/w is starting to come with drivers to run different
    interfaces.  Sound Blaster is one such, but it includes more than just
    a midi interface.
    
    Re the computer type:  I own an 286 machine, not solely for midi work.
    I can find all the s/w I need for it.  I know some pros who use IBM
    stuff.  It is probably true that there is more s/w available for MACs,
    and possibly for Atari ST and Amiga as well.  Many of the
    "heavy-hitters" in this conference have one of those last 3 systems.
    
    However, the usual maxim applies:  Decide what you want to do and pick
    the least expensive machine that will do it.  If you have already
    decided you want an IBM machine for lots of other reasons and wonder if
    it will do a bit of music also, the answer is surely YES.  If you want
    a machine only for music and think that you may get neck-deep into
    midi at some future date, you may want to consider a Mac or Atari or
    Amiga.
    
    Someone can probably point you to a note from not too long ago which
    went into the computer controversy ad nauseum.  I suggest that we don;t
    repeat that discussion here.
    
    But to answer your SPECIFIC question, I don't believe that salesman is
    right.  You can get Finale, Music Printer Plus, or Laser Music Printer
    all for an IBM type machine which does what you want at different
    levels of "seriousness".  You can also get Cakewalk and Voyetra
    Sequencer for just sequencing.
    
    Burns
    
    
    Burns
    

    
    
    How about books?  There are many books about many different aspects of
    MIDI available here in the States.  One of the earliest books available
    was Craig Anderton's "MIDI for Musicians", which could still answer
    many of your questions.  More recent titles naturally reflect more
    recent developments, such as samplers and tape sync.
    
    Also, check out some of the musically-oriented magazines: Keyboard,
    Electronic Musician, and sometimes even EQ has a useful article, eh,
    Karl?
    
    I can understand your frustration if you're trying to learn everything
    about MIDI from just this conference.  My recommendation would be to
    find books or magazines that can give you the basics and then come back
    and ask questions.  Do you think you can locate these books in your
    area?  If not, I'm sure one of us can produce an address or phone
    number for the Mix Bookshelf (a mail-order source for books &
    magazines).
    
    If you're into doing future generations of MIDI beginners a real
    service, you could record the questions you have now, write answers to
    them when you find the needed data, and then enter them in this
    conference in a MIDI beginners topic.
    

    
Well, I take it shot at it for a change.

>1. Samplers: What are those? Is there a sampler that makes the samples and also
>   a sampler player? I saw the 1911 note comparing samplers, I didn't see the
>   TG55 in it, Isn't the TG55 a sampler? How does it relate to the samplers
>   mentioned in the above note?                                                  

Most Samplers are capable of playback, I believe Peavey make two seperate
units one for sampling and one for playback. Sorry I don't know about the 
TG55.

>2. Sequencers: what are does and what are their function? What is the difference
>   between stand alone boxes and PC plug in's/just SW with Midi etc' ( I am not
>   sure I even know the questions...)

A Sequencer gives you the ability to 'record' what is played on the keyboard
or other MIDI unit. Using a sequencer and a couple synths or SGUs (sound 
generating units - synths without the keyboard) you can can create all
the part for a song i.e bass, drums, harmony and lead. By the way, the
DX7 is not multitimbral, meaning that it is not capable of playing back
more than one sound at a time.  With a multitimbral synth you can have
i.e. drums, piano, bass and brass happening at the same time.

>3. Midi interface cards: Please explain to me the meaning and the functions
>   of:  Tape Sync'
>   	SMPTE
>	Any other important stuff I need to pay attention to?
 
You need a MIDI interface card to connect the synth to the PC. The standard
is the Roland MPU 401. There are several companies making cheaper cards
with more features than the Roland.  

SMPTE is not important now but if you wanted to record vocals or anything else
for that matter on a multitrack tape recorder and have it sync up with a
sequencer then you need that capability. FSK is a cheaper but not as flexible
wat of achieving the same thing.

>4. Sound cards: What is the function of the Sound Blaster? Will it replace
>   for me the need of a Midi interface card as well? What other cards are 
>   available and how do they compare to the above?

Sound card and nice for games, text to speech and speech digitizing but
not needed in setting up a MIDI system. You can however use these cards
as SGU's, I haven't heard these card so I don't know how good they sound.
This is true for the cards with a MIDI port on them. 

ADLIB is another sound card plus Roland makes a couple. I would just get a MIDI
interface if what I wanted to do was sequencing and such and look for
a good SGU for additional sounds.

>5. On SW, My son went to a store where the sales person told him that if he
>   wants a serious SW that enables editing notes on the screen and playing
>   back and forth from the keyboard, he needs to have a MAC (not IBM).
>   Is that true? What kind of SW that enables this kind of capability is
>   available on the PC compatibles?

    Of course he sells MACs and know all about music software.
That's not true I use an IBM clone for sequencing. Go ahead and get your
486 machine that would do just fine. There are lots of software packages
for doing sequencing and the prices vary with how fancy you want to get.


>thanks, avraham


Regards,

Errol
    

    I know you didn't want pointers, but doing a SHOW KEY/FULL GLOSSARY
    would have shown topics 923.0, 956.0, and 2238.0.  You'll find more
    definitions there than you'll care to read.
    
+b

Hi,

	Wow has this note taken off from my original questions back in .0.  I
appreciate everyone's suggestions and all but ... let's be serious ... if I
can't learn how to play the piano until Digital releases a new product, a new
electronic keyboard is designed, and I have enough money to buy a DECvoice, it's
never going to happen!

	I wish I knew more about the information stored in a MIDI file.
Somebody said something about MIDI files not being able to reconstruct shee
music (or something like that).  I don't really expect there to be that much
information, but if I could get one note played back, I could play the notes on
the keyboard one at a time until I get it right.  I can't exactly play by ear,
but I have a reasonable sense of where a note is going to be depending on it's
pitch.

	Yes, there are "reading machines" that work reasonably well on text.
Unfortunately, music won't work at all.  In fact lots of different styles of
text down't work real well.  These machines have a strong bias toward standard
text (letters) and therefore even numbers get messed up.

	DECvoice, as I understand it, is priced somewhere in the $10k range.
Even DECtalk, at $4k is pretty hefty.

	I've already got a 386-based pc, speech output (not DECtalk) and a
braille display.  I'm not really looking to be taught everything by my pc,
although the more the better I suppose.

	My ultimate goal would be this: Let's say I want to learn some piece of
music.  I get somebody to play that piece and use a MIDI keyboard and computer
to record it.  Then I have some tool that will allow me to pull whatever
information (notes, timing, chords, etc) out of the file at whatever speed I
need in a non graphical way.  I don't know the structure of MIDI files, but I
don't imagine I'm asking for something all that impossible.  Using this system I
could even post a note "Hay I'm looking to learn XYZ by ABC does anyone have a
MIDI recording of it?" and if so ... a few binary file copies later ... I've got
some replacement for sheet music.

	If things are presented on the screen (in text format not graphical
format), existing text to speech (or text to braille) hardware/software
solutions will do the rest.

	New systems and new keyboards might solve the problem in new (better)
ways, and I'm willing to be a bit patient, but designing new hardware and
software seems like a lot of work just so I can learn to play.  God forbid we
went through all that and, three months into lessons, I decide I don't like it
or don't have the time for it or maybe (just to keep things interesting) I have
a bus run over my right hand (ouch :-).

	Thanks for the input so far, any more info would be appreciated.

                                     John

    I really think you need to develop your ear and learn to play without
    music. There's a long history of musicians who have been totally
    blind, and they have been among some of the best regardless of their
    disability. (A few pianists come to mind: Art Tatum, Ray Charles,
    Marcus Roberts. Well, Tatum wasn't completely blind, and not blind since
    birth.)
    
    I'd guess that, among popular musicians, only about 50% can read music,
    and half of that 50% can just barely read.
    
    Concentrate on trying to play what you hear. Start with simple stuff.
    Don't get bogged down trying to read MIDIfiles, or you'll never learn
    to PLAY. PLAYing is much more important than reading!
    
    Just my humble opinion, of course. (And I can read.)
    
    -Ross

Ear training classes should be a big help.  I don't know
where you're located, but local music schools and/or
adult education classes should offer classes like this.

	Somewhat off at a tangent, but.....

	How practical would it be to use a player piano as a 
teaching/training device ?   I ask because the ones I have seen do 
actually move the keys so,  assuming beginner level stuff that stays 
in basic five finger position,  one could track the keys being played.
Of course this also assumes "course-ware" on piano rolls, or some way 
of creating it.  It wouldn't be difficult to create lessons for the 
Yamaha midi player pianos, though I don't know it those actually move 
the keys.

	Reg

re: .22, .23, .24, .25 

Thanks very much guys you were of great help.

avraham