Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    bob, i have a 4 track half inch otari mx5050 reel to reel which i paid
    about 600.00 a year ago (sounds great !!!) also i found another
    mx5050 half inch reel to reel 8 track (sound great to !!) which i paid
    about 2,000.00. when looking at 4 track reel to reels the prices were
    from 400.00 to 800.00 and for 8 track 1500.00 to 2,500 -- of course
    these are used machined but they still sound great! i think that you
    will run out of tracks on the 4 track fairly quickly but then the
    8 track is going to cost big bucks -- plus you need a mixer that will
    allow you to monitor all 8 tracks. also i would definitly go for a
    1/2 inch machine in either case. i hope that this helps a little
    
    
    regards,mike
    

    
    my fostex-x15 lives now deep under the soil at the local landfill. I
    had LOTS of trouble with the mechanical innards - important plastic
    pieces just plain broke.  Now x-15 was the bottom of the line - i'm
    not sure if it's replacement or higher models are more durable.
    While i look at other 4-tracks, i tend to drool over the tascam 688's
    like dbii has.  Then i remember i don't have any money....
    
    Although my wife Peg Bundy, while complaining to the kids that i
    only went to work 1 day and thus ruined their vacation, mentioned
    that if i DID have a 4-track, it would be just like i wasn't there!
    
    
    	Al..uh i mean Bob

    You also might wanna do a "dir/key=4TRACK".  You'll find more than you
    ever wanted to know.
    
    Rodney

Yeah, I like the 688 too- that's the type of setup I contemplate "waiting for"
depending on the final outcome of my ruminations. I like to find a good
"price/performance plateau" that gives me a long breathing space between
upgrades. Unfortunately, I never seem to do very well when I trade or sell
*anything,* so I try to get something that'll do me for a while.

I have significant track capability on my sequencer (unlimited except for
memory, which is currently 2Meg (Amiga), and my synth has decent multitimbral/
polyphonic ability. However, if I want both "wet" and "dry" synth sounds, I do
need to use separate tracks, since my only effects are the K1-II's builtins.

The things I don't have a feel for are:

(1) How successful/unsuccessful can you get at doing a decent "premix" (that is,
of multiple tracks onto a single track) when bouncing tracks around? Does it end
up almost always being unsatisfactory, or do you get a feel for what mix will
end up sounding good with the parts yet to follow? I have a feeling the answer
is that the inability to separately control parts for the final mix really
almost always hurts, but I thought it'd worth a reality check.

(2) How many "layers" are really practical before the noise gets annoying? What
I've read indicates that about three oberdubs are really maximum, but again,
what have others experienced?

(3) Which of the available four-tracks have folks found to be the best? I've
heard bad things about the Fostex line before, and usually good things about
Tascam/TEAC. Any others worth considering?

I haven't really looked at prices yet. I recall seeing PORTA05 for around
$450, if I remember correctly. If the bang/buck ratio isn't pretty much tilted
to the four-track side, I think I'll end up getting more later, rather than
less sooner.

Oops, pilot error! I *did* start by doing a DIR/KEY, but got nada. After the
suggestion of -1, my skepticism got the better of me and I did it again; the
most useful notes were on the more recent Tascam entries.

After reviewing them, plus having a nice chat with db, I'm *pretty* sure that
4-track will do me. I'm not in a terrible rush, though.

Anyone got a 424, 488, or 644? The 424 sounds like my most likely candidate at
present.

    I think, if you're going for the low-medium end of casette four tracks,
    you'd be better off with a used tascam 244 than any of the porta-nn
    models. I got a used 244 for $400, and have seen them as low as 200.
    It serves my (fairly undemanding) purposes well. The transport is
    really sturdy, seems like it'll go forever. Mixer's a little noisy, but
    some of that could be my mis-use and over-use of EQ and reverb. 
    
    My $.o2 worth.

    bob, buy a used otari 4 track you will not go wrong. after you heard
    this type of machine the tascams,fostexs etc. will sound like toys!!
    and get a 'real' mixer' which allows you to use effects i.e. effects
    send/return. forget about bouncing tracks on a four track especially a
    cassette version. regards, mike
    

Gee mike, that's great! Do you want my address to send the check to, or can you
just wire me the cash directly? (Oh well, it was worth a try...) Seriously, I
can't justify the huge expenditure or the physical setup space to go "big-time"
right now. Mebbe later...

I *am* trying not to cut off options for reasonable future expansion, such as
effects boxes, better mixers, and such. However, I have to weigh cost and space
against the "drool factor." I think my dream machine would be the 688, to tell
the truth, but I also probably wouldn't use half its features for quite a while!

  Well, if used stuff counts, then I guess blow-out deals do too...

  There is another option:  You say you want at least 4 tracks, and many
  have commented on the 8 track machines, but there's something in the middle.
  Sansui makes (or should I say used to make) a line of recording products
  based on 6 tracks on standard cassette tapes.  Both Electronic Musician and
  Keyboard magazine gave their stuff a fairly decent review.  I know spces
  aren't everything, but the Sansui machines give you an extra 1khz freq
  response at the top end over the Tascam 8 track cassettes.  (course, they're
  only squeezing 6 tracks on instead of 8)

  I too felt limited by 4 tracks, I just sold my Tascam 244, which was great,
  and I loved it... but 4 tracks.  I was going to upgrade to 8 and had my
  mind set on a Tascam 488 (which also looks like a great deal for the money)
  and then I came across the recent hot price quote in this conference on the
  Sansui stuff.  I was skeptical, but figured for the savings it was worth
  checking it out.  They had one model which was an all-in-1 (sounds familiar?)
  unit containing an 8 channel (12 input) mixer, 6 track cassette deck AND a
  stereo mix-down cassette... a complete little studio.  They listed for I
  belive $1900 and Sam Ash was doing them for < $600!  But they were sold out
  of those.  So I got the next best thing, and I'm actually glad I did now.
  They sell the 6 track cassette seperately (MR-6) rack-mountable, listed for
  $1300, I got it for $350.  Then they have a seperate 12 channel, 6 buss mixer
  (MX-12) which is better than the one in there all-in-1 unit, lists for $1200,
  I also got it for $350.  So $700 (the cost of a new good 4 track porta
  studio) for a decent 12 channel mixer and 6 track recorder!

  There hasn't been much talk about them in this conference, I think there's
  1 topic on it, nobody has reviewed one.  I just got mine setup the other
  day and haven't played with it enough to post a full review, but from what
  I've done so far I really like the units, and a coupld people I know that
  own them like them as well.  6 tracks isn't as nice as 8, but it's a big
  leap from 4, especially since one thing I can do now is stereo ping-ponging.
  But if 6 just doesn't seem like it will cut it, Sansui makes a sync-box that
  will syncronize two of it's 6 track machines to theoretically give you one
  10 track machine!  (1 track of each machine carries the sync code which is
  why you lose two tracks)  Sam Ash didn't carry the Sync-Box, otherwise I
  would have gotten one since my friend also has a MR-6.  Too bad, I would
  have liked to try it out, but they said they may be cutting another deal
  with Sansui soon.

  my 6 cents

-Tom

    (deep breath) I know, I know, I should give it a rest..
    
>                  <<< Note 2537.9 by VAXDEM::ECLPSE::ROBERT >>>
>....   I also got it for $350.  So $700 for a decent 12 channel mixer 
    >and 6 track recorder!
    
    2 years ago I bought a used FOSTEX A8LR 8-track (*15*ips, Dolby C) for 
    $900, and a Yamaha KM802 mixer for about $225 new.. so about $1100 for 
    8 tracks on a non-cassette format.. And I bet that the FOSTEX dex
    can be found even cheaper now.. not to mention the mixers.
    
    karl

    
    re: Tascam 424
    
    Last time I check with TEAC, which was before Christmas, the
    424 decks were not even in the country yet! The person I talked
    to said that when they (TEAC in California) got them in, that
    the decks would still have to go thru QC before being shipped to
    dealers. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on one. I gave up
    after a month and a half and bought a used Porta-2.
    
    -T
    

I used to have a tascam 234 and it's a very serious 4 track deck. You can bounce
tracks with good results if you don't over-eq and under-level the tracks. Check
out commusic 1 & 2 for a few pieces I did with that deck.

Personally I can't see spending the money it takes to own an otari when buying
a 4 track. The difference in sound is minute IMHO. Bass response is clearer on
a reel to reel etc. but the cost of tape become prohibitive when using
reels, especially for 4 track work.

The 688 is a real nice peice but runs a bit pricy...if you plan to upgrade
in a year or so, save your $ and buy a nice tascam or similar cassette.

dbii

Things are starting to sound interesting. I haven't gotten through to Sam Ash
yet, but when I do I will definitely inquire about the Sansui decks as well as
the 424.

Note .9 (I think) said something about "used to make" in regard to the Sansui
decks; does the author (or anyone) have more detail on this? I'd prefer not to
have an "instant orphan," though it can at times be worth it.

    
    re .13:  I don't know the exact story, I heard they were getting out
    of "that market", but not going out of bussiness or anything.
    So I'm not sure what that will mean for servicing.  That worried me
    too, but then for the prices I said eh, what the heck.
    
    re .10:  True Karl, a used reel-2-reel could be a better buy for the
    money sound quality wise, but unlike something like a SGU, tape
    machines exhibit wear and tear.  Unless I know the person I wouldn't
    really know how well it was taken care of and what kind of condition
    the heads/alignment/etc are in.  I don't know enuf about them to "test"
    them (other than, yeah, seems to work OK) and taking it somewhere would
    just be more effort/$$.  And as someone pointed out, there's the extra
    cost of the non-cassettes.  Definitely a viable option, but depends on
    the variables.
    
    -TR  (who come to think of it, couldn't tell you the condition of the
    head/alignment/etc of my NEW unit -- hmmm, guess I just trust new over
    used)
     

More news from the 4-track front:

Regarding the "Sam Ash Sansui" deal, yep, they're fresh out. Looked that way,
but now I know for sure.

The LATEST hot deal they're offering is $499 for a Yamaha MT3X. Among its specs
are:
	-four-track simultaneous record
	- six inputs, each with 2 aux sends and 2-band EQ
	-switchable dbx
	-auto punch in/out

Also listed are a couple of "fuzzies:"

	- "easy hook-up to MIDI sequence recorders"
	- "extensive monitoring capabilities"

The info I got from an ad in EM. I really didn't get much specific from Sam
Ash except that it "blows away the Tascam 424." (Just a coincidence, I'm sure,
but they haven't got their 424s in yet.) I'm hoping to get some more specific
info one way or another; from what I've seen so far, it does sound superior to
the 424 in some ways, but not others. Frinstance, 8 inputs on the 424, pitch
control plus/minus 12% on the 424 (any on the MT3X?), 3 speeds on the 424. I'd
love to actually AB them.

Anyone ever used this beastie? Does Yamaha have any kind of "rep" vis-a-vis
recorders, good or bad?

I am getting a fairly rapid education regarding "ministudios," focused pretty
much on the mixer aspect. While I've scanned the topic endlessly in EM, it's
somehow different when you're thinking of *buying* one! Kind of like driving
someplace instead of getting a ride- you've got to pay more attention.

One puzzlement seems to recur fairly often: Why do so many machines have *no*
effects returns, even when they have sends? If you're not going to put in
returns, why are the sends of a higher priority? On the face of it, I would
think that an output can act as a send, just as an input can act as a return,
right?

Your input is really great, folks. I need to focus on hard facts *real* bad-
the more into it I get, the more the Tascam 644 attracts me. (Sam Ash: $1195)
The built-in sync capabilities alone seem to offset the price difference to a
great extent, not to mention the added input/send capabilities.

Maybe I'm not the only one. Maybe this is my million-dollar idea- the single
device to hold all your MIDIholic tendencies in check: the MIDI-drool
controller! Every time you reach for your wallet, it sends the MIDI "purchase
off" message! Hahahahahahhaha!!! Pant, pant, gasp...it's OK, I'm all right now,
really. Seriously. Whew, that was close. MIDI mania is always just around the
corner; it could happen to YOU!

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    
    
    I'me pretty sure, though not absolutely (that should get the mitigation
    lawyers going), that Sansui is a subsidiary of the UK Polly Peck
    organisation. The original Mr Del Montey, for those of you who have
    seen the commercial. Polly Peck went into receivership recently so
    support for the sixtracks maybe fairly short lived. Having said that
    their Hifi products are well thought of so there must be a good chance
    of rescue from somewhere...
    
    
    					Paul.

Well. I had planned a lengthy evaluation of available machines and careful
consideration of my needs, followed by a purchase (eventually!) in due time.

Mebbe I'll act a *teensy* bit more hastily than planned! (I know that may be
hard for you folks to understand...)

The current deal at Sam Ash's on the Yamaha MT3X, accompanied by review of its
features and offline chats with two  MT*X owners (one MT1X, one MT2X) really
make my "top choice" fairly clear and my purchase (hopefully) imminent.

Apparently the decks Yamaha makes are both sturdy and relatively quiet. The
presence of two aux sends (*and* returns!) on each of six inputs makes the MT3X
expandable enough to meet my own likely (?) needs.

I should mention- a note of thanks to the "anonymous source" who provided me
with a great deal of background on his use of the MT3X, but didn't want to be
"posted" here. His uses are close enough to what I'm anticipating my own to be
that I feel quite comfortable with this deck as a good choice for me. Thanks to
db as well for some enjoyable and informative offline chats.

Now to check my bank balance, credit balance, number of mortgages, and so forth.
Then, all I'll need is some free time, and then.....

Cheers,
	Bob

    There is also a new 488 comming out from Tascam. 8-tracks, with a list
    of $1500. 
    
    jk

    The 488 has been out for a month at least.  Daddy's Junky Music in
    Nashua has had them for at least that.
    
    The going discount rate on it seems to be about $1300.
    
    I'm very dissapointed with it however - my main beefs are that it does
    NOT have tape-outs for each track and there are NO effects return
    inputs.
    
    Were it not for those limitations, I might have already had one by now.

    Dumb question: do most of the porta-studios have tape outs on each
    track?
    I wonder how the 8tr cassette units really sound. I havent touched a 
    4-track since the 144, so i don't know if they new ones sound better 
    or what. 
    I was going to (eventually) get a porta 05, but if i hold out long enough, 
    8track technology will be within reach.
    
    Jay two_cassette_decks_no_waiting Kuhn

    The Yamaha MTnX's do.
    
    My impression is that many 4-track porta-studios do NOT have tape outs.
    
    I don't see it as being that important for 4-tracks.  For a unit with
    8-tracks and a limited moderately noisey (or so I hear) mixer, I think
    they would have been a REAL GOOD idea.
    
    Don't ask me to justify that - it's just how I see it being used.

    
    
    re: Tape Outs
    
    Does anyone know for sure whether the 424 has tape outs? This 
    (like Dave said) is a *big* disadvantage. 
    
    The porta-05 and porta-03 don't have tape outs
    
    The Porta-1 and Porta-2 do have tape outs. 
    
    re: Speeds
    
    How important is having 3-3/4 ips? My porta-2 has only 1-7/8 and it
    sounds fine to me. 
    
    

IMHO the 688 can keep up with any other cassette deck I've ever heard or played
with sound wise and sounds better than some of the earlier Fostex reel-to-reel
8 tracks, primarily due to the better noise reduction (dbx vs. dolby c).

Also I don;t find the mixer very noisy...

dbii

OK, I finally did it- I sprung for the Sam Ash deal on the Yamaha MT3X.

Turns out yup, it's going out of production; however, at $499 it seems like an
incredible deal for the features provided.

I was lucky to get one. As of last week I was told I shouldn't have any trouble
getting one if I waited until this week to decide; as of now I just ordered the
second last one in the chain, which came out the NJ store. If anyone else is
thinking about taking this deal, hurry- you may be too late already.

I was pretty hesitant, since this is my first multi-track, it's going out of
production, etcetera, but I figure that anything in its class which follows it
will be twice the price. The Tascam 424 sounds OK, but the superior send/return
configuration of the MT3X seems to tip the scales.

I'm STILL nervous, so if anyone wants to offer last-minute advice (reassurances
welcome!), now's the time, before they send it out!

Sweaty_palms_but_it_seemed_like_a_good_idea,

	Bob

    re .17
    
    Well what ya gonna go for? I'm in the same boat as you, and thanks for
    this Notesfile/topic. This is the kind of thing that is so invaluable
    as to making an intelligent decision about buying something as costly
    as $500. Ok maybe that's not so cosly for most of you high paid DECcies
    out there, but for this one, a $500 toy is a major expediture.
    
    Anyway, for me the Yamaha jobby sound like it'll suit my needs just
    fine. So too will the 424, I'm sure. At least I think I'm sure - I
    guess you never really know all there is to know about something until
    you get your hands dirty with it for awhile. The Yamaha is $499 at Sam
    Ash's, and available. I found the 424 at the Music Emporium for $439
    but not as yet available, and nobody seems to know when - weeks or
    months. 
    
    'sakman'

    
    	RE: .2
    
    	Thanks a bunch... now I'll never sell my X15.  Though I never had
    	any problems except static.  I had to use a ground strap when the
    	apt. was dry!

    Still no answer on track outs of the Tascam 424, but I saw a bigger
    picture of it yesterday and could make out some details of the
    controls.  Guess what, the "8 input channels" is a crock...what you get
    is 4 mixer channels of the usual type: gain trim, hi/lo EQ, pan, FX
    send, fader.  Then there are two "stereo" inputs (looks like they use a
    3-conductor phone jack) with only one control each, gain.  Which to my
    way of thinking is a pair of FX returns.  But in a pinch you could use
    them to buss in two more stereo submixes (like from a keyboard mixer)
    but as there is no pan on these inputs, the inputs really must be
    "premixed".  
    
    Hopefully Tascam will be able to get these things into stores sometime
    this century, so we can finally hear it.
    
    						Brian

    Tascam has a new budget 4-track machine, the porta-03 that lists for
    $321 or something like that. I wonder what the difference between this
    and the bottom line porta-05 is. Musician Mag gave a one line blurb
    that that thought the new 424 was well worth the bucks. Of course that
    could mean anything.
    
    jay

Well, Jay, having just gone through a whirlwind fact-finding mission prior to
getting my Yamaha MT3X, I have a lot of it still on hand.

The Yamaha blurb on the Porta 03 has the following:

	- 2 (what???) inputs, mic/line with trim
	- 4 x 2 Tape Cue mixer
	- Record one or two tracks (whoopee!)
	- Switchable Dolby B
	- Overload and "signal present" LEDs for each jack
	- headphone jack

Really, I'm sort of surprised that TEAC isn't embarassed to market this. It's
hardly worth spending this much money to get what's hardly more than a standard
cassette deck.

On the 424, its features are really pretty good, but the Yamaha beat it in a
couple of categories (for my purposes, anyway). Since the MT3X is out of
production, though, I'd regard the 424 as the best on the market in its class.
The main drawback is the lack of effects return loops- the party line is that
inputs 5-8 can serve as return ins if you wish. Anyway, the specs say:

	- 8 inputs
	- switchable dbx
	- 4 track simultaneous record
	- input bypass and cue assign accommodate virtual tracks
	- synch in/out jacks
	- pitch control +/- 12%
	- headphone jack

The specs don't mention it, but there is also a punch in/out jack for a
footswitch.

The Porta 05 is obviously better, but I personally wouldn't think of it given
the price/performance comparison with the 424. Perhaps wiser heads than mine
would differ, though- I'm sure we'll se it here if they do!

Good luck, anyhoo.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Unlikely that you have a blurb from Yamaha describing the Porta-03...

Nit-nit-nit-

Ok, Ok, the blurb is from Tascam. I dropped a bit, all right?

Cheers,
	Bob

    The Porta 03 essentially drops the following features of the Porta 05:
    
    1. No dbx noise reduction.  It has Dolby B instead, to double as a deck
    for your stereo.
    
    2. The LED meters replaced by two LEDs.  This makes setting levels a bit
    harder.
    
    3. No provision for a sync track.
    
    4.  No EQ of any kind (or so it appears?) and the "mixer" does double
    duty as the cue mixer during overdubs (rather than having separate cue
    and main mixers).
    
    I think Tascam has pulled a shrewd one here; for years Fostex has built
    their market on being cheaper than Tascam, now Tascam is puching the
    price point to a street level of $250 or so.  They will get the folks
    who've held off due to price.  Sure, you get what you pay for, but
    four-track cassettes are not a real hi-fi medium to start with.  Those
    who are old enough to recall doing "sound-on-sound" overdubs on Sony and
    Akai stereo reel to reels will probably appreciate having the power of
    four-track overdubbing at such a low price, even if it does sound like
    a ghetto blaster.
    
    							Brian  

    I used to do SOS on Sony rTr decks.  =8^)
    Now i do it with two cassette decks. for my limited purposes, Ok I
    guess. 
    Wow, Dolby B on the porta 03. I don't know about that. I think I'd
    rather kick in more bucks and get DBX (from what I've heard about it),
    but I think I'd rather have the porta 03 than a bottom of the line
    Fostex. I am not sure in my limited case how the mixer setup on the
    porta 03 would do. You are talking to a guy who has a Radio Shack echo
    he got off Mike Pushard for a great price, and who uses a Casio SK-1
    along with his acoustic guitar. Maybe this limited deck fills my niche.
    I would hope it its sounds better than bouncing tracks between cassette
    decks. Anyway, thanks for all the info on it and the Yamaha. There
    stuff looks real good too. It seems like lots of people here seem to
    be switching to Yamaha.
    
    Jay turn_off_the_noise_reduction_its_too_noisy Kuhn

Oh, yeah? Well, I used to do sound on sound with a JVC deck and a Radio Shack
mixer I used to mix the output of one track with the next overdub- so there!

Really, it all comes down to (a) what you can put up with; (b) how long you can
put up with it; and (c) how long you'd have to save to get the next best option.
I started out my synth/recording/mixing setup with a "boom-box" for both
amplification (CD-in) and taping, with a Radio Shack mixer for inputs. Note that
I had *no* sound-on-sound and *no* noise reduction. Meanwhile, I scraped cash up
waiting for a "proper" 4-track.

The comparison of the Porta 03's features at list $321 (street price around
$250?)to the features of the 424 at around $440 street price make it not very
attractive, IMHO, unless it would take you forever to finance the 424.
Personally, I always end up doing lousy at trade-ups, so I try to get something
I can stick with for a while. If you're going to use dolby and record two tracks
at a time, you may as well get two dolby-capable tape decks, at less than the
price of the Porta 03.

All in all, everybody makes their own choices, though. I'm *real* happy with
mine so far, and I hope any and all currently cogitating end up the same.

Cheers,
	Bob

    re:last
    So you went for the 424 instead of the Yamaha?
    You made a good point, sound-wise, I probably wouldnt gain much going
    with a 03. It would better value to spend a little more for a 424,
    maybe. Why did you choose the 424 instead of a porta 05 with the faster
    tape speed? I want input for when i eventuall make the decision. 8^)
    
    jay
    

re .35:

Nah, I *did* get the Yamaha. I realize that any notes I wrote yesterday were
probably even more confusing than usual, so I can see why you'd get that
impression. I referred current (or future) purchasers to the 424 because I
imagine that MT3X's are virtually unavailable now- I got the second-last one
Sam Ash had at their "blowout" price of $499. You might find one still, I
imagine, and if so I still think it's a better deck (for *my* needs), but not
by much, than the 424. A local (to Nashua, NH) dealer was willing to take $100
off list ($995) at the same time Sam was offering their deal. Maybe they don't
know that they're out of production yet- or maybe they hope noone else knows!

I think you dropped a bit on the Porta 05/424 comparison; the 05HS has a speed
of 3 3/4 IPS (unchangeable, I think), the 05 1 7/8, and the 424 has 3
*selectable* speeds: 15/16, 1 7/8, and 3 3/4. All recommendations I've seen in
this conference are to avoid using slower speeds (even 1 7/8), as the extra tape
cost of using the high speed is more than repaid in the superior sound quality
which results. I think the selling point of the 15/16 speed is the ability to
effectively plagiarize (like *totally*!) supersonic guitar licks by slowing
them down to a pace mere mortals can fully comprehend. Oh, whoopee. *Yawn*

Anyway, if I *hadn't* got in on the Yamaha deal, my feelings wouldn't have been
excessively hurt by getting "only" a 424- it seems like a good feature set. I
must point out, again, that I'm by no means an expert- I *did* happen to have
the good fortune to have access to some excellent input from folks (from this
conference, plug-plug) who do have substantial expertise. That made me a *lot*
more confident in my choice. (Of course, I *thought* about it for a year, too!)
If you know what you need, you're halfway home.

Good luck,
	Bob

    Thanks. 
    I wasn't aware of the selectable speeds of the 424. I suppose for my
    use, I'd do just as well with a Tascam or Yamaha.
    
    I dont even read magazines to keep up anymore...I just read this notes
    file when I need info and *experience* with a product. I've really
    learned alot. 
    
    j

I don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but anyway.

The "replacement" for the Yamaha MT3X is a lower-end 4-track called the MT100II.
Although it definitely didn't fill my bill, for those agonizing over whether
to get the Porta 03 or stick with two-tracks, I think it may be a good option.

It has tape outs 1-4, a single aux send/return loop, four inputs (simultaenously
recordable), each with mike/line trim pots, high/low speeds, switchable dbx,
level LEDs for each channel, zero-stop, and five-band EQ on each stereo channel.
(I don't know how the EQ applies to the four-tracks prior to mixdown.)

I don't recall the list/street prices, but I think this deck is competitive (at
least) with the Porta 03.

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    
    re: .-1
    
    	I'm pretty sure the MT100II is a 424 class machine both feature
    and price wise. I can't quote the street price of the MT100II but
    I'd guess it's around $400 or so, complared with ~$450 (or less) 
    for the 424.
    
    	FWIW, I got my local dealer to take back the (used) Porta-2
    that I had dropout problems with. He gave me an even trade for
    a 424. 
    
    	All in all, it's a great machine for the money. I haven't had
    much time to use it this week, so I can't really post a good review.
    
    	My only gripe is that the track outs share jacks with the line
    out and sync in/out. It's switch selectable. 
    
    
    -T
    

    
      FWIW - after checking into all the 4-tracks out there for
    around $500, I decided to go for the Tascam 424 as well.
    My reasons: three speeds, DBX noise reduction, Tascam reliability

    
    
    re: MT100II
    
    Small correction: The "street" price on the MT100II is around $350.
    
    -T
    

FWIW, if anyone is still interested in the Yamaha MT3X (as a competitor to the
Tascam 424), "Sound Deals" has them at $475. The number (out of the dealer
contacts note) is 1-800-822-6434.

Bob

	can we have some product reviews of the 424. Bad case of the
	me-to's cropping up here.

	ccb

    I think one thing you would gain having even a porta-03 over two dolby
    decks dubbing back and forth is lower wow and flutter. I'm sure the
    porta-03 isnt great, but when you dub back and forth a few times you
    record the wow and flutter along with yer jammin' tunes. That and the
    fact you lose any mix control are negatives. 
    
    Then, once you get your new 4track, you hear about the new 8 tracks and
    ...IT NEVER ENDS!!!! :-)
    
    jay

Although this isn't *directly* related to the 4-track topic, there's a good
argument that it *should* be. Anyhoo, I'm the basenoter, and I asked myself if
it was OK, and I told myself it was. What a guy!

The thing is, there's a lot of stuff which you don't really pay a lot of 
attention to until you get a "serious" (i.e., >2-track) recording setup. At
least for me. If you're a MIDIot, the first thing which you miss is a synch box
to let your sequencer keep time with tracks already laid down. A MIDI patch bay
also ends up being almost a necessity pretty quickly. The last item which seems
part of a "basic" setup is some kind of outboard effects box, especially if you
use a lot of direct-connect tape inputs (e.g., synths); without one the tracks
have absolutely zero "natural" reverberation as you'd get from any acoustic
instrument or vocal. Of course, the *order* in which you add this stuff depends
on your own needs, but I would say they do comprise the basic "required
accessory" set for 4-trackers. IMHO. For me, they definitely take priority over
more tracks.

BTW, -1's point about 4 being greater than 2+2 is well taken.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Okay, you asked for it, here it is!
    
    	I just purchased a Tascam 424 from one of the local music stores
    here in Burlington, Ontario, Canada. It cost me $799 (Canadian), which
    is supposed to be 20% lower than the Canadian list price ($1000 ?). I
    have also seen it in Toronto stores for $699 (CDN) but have been told
    by my contact in the Burlington store that with a price that low it
    must be 'used' or 'demo' unit. In any case, that is the price range up
    here (remember that we have higher prices  since stuff like this is
    'imported' from your fair country, and there is the dollar exchange
    difference as well, and don't forget our lovely 8% provincial tax and
    7% goods and service tax).
    
    	Now that I've had my 'bitch' session, some first impressions. I
    have only used the unit for mixing purposes (sound work for a fashion
    show) and have found it to be wonderfully flexible. The 3 conductor
    jacks are a bit of a hassle, but any audio/techno/musico/MIDIo -phile
    worth their salt will have the necessary adapter cables or will have
    always wanted to by them anyway. Once you have surmounted the
    interfacing problems, you have an amazing little box for the money!
    Simpler and visually more appealing than the other Portastudios (or
    even the famed Yamaha MT3X, for my tastes), you basically get a mixer
    ('minimum' -> 4X2, 'maximum' -> 10x2) and a 3 speed cassette deck (that
     will also play normal cassettes quite capably), that just happens to
    be a four track studio in a box. All this for the same price as the
    average mixer that you are getting anyway (with MAYBE a little more
    flexibility). The cassette deck sound is quite good (remember that I
    have been using mostly playback and have done very little recording),
    and the mixer is 95% perfect for my application (instrument and/or DJ
    submix with additional available inputs for extra stuff). My only
    complaint is that there is a CUE 'monitoring channel' for the on-board
     tape deck, and for the two stereo 'line-only' inputs, but not for the
    line/mic input channels (there is an 'effect send' bus, but it is
    separate from the CUE 'bus'). This could very well be a moot point,
    since the manual has some info that may allow me to join the two
    'buses' together for monitoring (more on that when I figure out how;
    I'll give you a hint: I need another 3 conductor adapter; I think I'll
    solder this one together myself).
    
    	Let me just say that my application is slightly different from most
    of you. I ran out of inputs on my DJ mixer, and I've always wanted a
    'portastudio', and I don't have a neat small mixer for practicing tunes
    with friends for the odd gig (yes, another musician-type; I'm not just
    DJ scum). So I found the best all-purpose beast for my needs. Just
    in case this sounds too good to be honest, I never thought I'd buy a
    TASCAM product because I'd heard the tape deck part wasn't too hot.
    Well, so far so good. I hope to add another note or two once I get to
    the recording/overdubbing stage (okay, maybe it was a pun; BIG DEAL!).
    
    	If you have any questions, I've been through the manual and every
    other piece of literature I could find on this thing. I brought
    microphones and a Walkman to the music store for a 30 minute 'audition'
    before I put down my money. The only thing I'm lacking now is practical
    experience on the multi-tracking side of things.
    
    	More news when I've cut some tracks (rock on!)
    
    						Cal Connolly @HPO
    						Burlington, Ontario, Canada
      

    I have a question here that relates to 4-track mixers like the
    Tascam 424.  Since it is a 4 track system, are you able to turn off any
    of the 4 tracks whenever doing a playback?  In particular, if I had a
    cassette tape that I purchased out of the store, could I turn off a
    track and maybe only here the voice or just the music?
    
    I'm very new to this stuff and just wanted to understand the
    capabilities of these 4 track mixers.
    
    Chris

    Good try, Chris.  Except on some early stereo recordings where
    individual elements of the mix (guitar, or vocals, or whatever) are
    panned hard left or hard right (check out early Beatles!), you get a
    mix of all of the instruments in both channels/tracks on a pre-recorded
    tape.
    
    Playing a stereo tape on a multi-track machine doesn't give you a way
    to go back in and turn off Linda McCartney's vocals and put your (or
    your dog's) vocals in her place.
    
    There are some devices on the market that say they can strip off
    vocals.  Maybe someone has a pointer to the note that talks about
    those?
    
    \John

    Thanks.  It was worth a shot.  I had someone try this for me on some
    type of equipment that would take a record and stip the voice part of
    the v groove out of the song and leave just the music.  It worked, but
    not relal well,  it left some of the vocals in the song which really
    made it useless.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Chris

    "Vocal eliminators" often work on the principle that if the voices are
    recorded on both channels (i.e., centered in the stereo field), mixing
    the two channels out of phase effectively subtracts the voices.  This
    obviously only works when the assumption is valid.
    
    BTW, you can listen to only one channel of a prerecorded cassette
    simply by using the pan control on your playback system, or if you
    want to dig around in the cables, unplugging one the the cassette player
    outputs.
    
    len.
      

    ...slight digression here...
    
    re:  .48 - "...early stereo recordings...panned hard left/right..."
    
    That was *NOT* stereo - it was "two track" !
    	I read something about this a few years ago - there was a court
    case of someone wanting to release some very early Beatles/Stones
    stuff. The argument mentioned (against re-release), was that stated 
    above. 
    	Makes sense I suppose - what % of punters had stereo gear in 
    those early sixties, and what kind of mixers/recorders were used ?
    
    Jim

    
    I don't think I got the point of the previous reply.  If I've got an
    old Beatles album, and I play it back on my system (which has two
    channels, but I call it a stereo) and the guitar is screaming out of
    one channel and John Lennon is screaming out of the other (Revolution),
    then it seems to me like I've got a stereo recording, regardless of
    whether the original stuff was recorded on two or three or even more
    tracks.  Maybe we're just looking at different parts of the process?
    

    
    
    	well, to try and quickly subside this digression - The very first
    Beatle stuff, ie 1963 recordings were all 2-track, in that the vocals
    and maybe lead guitar were on 1 track, the rest on another. They were
    INTENDED to be always released as mono - seperating this stuff allowed
    George Martin to postpone mixing vocals until later.
    
    	Even when they went to 4-track, all primary mixes (the ones anyone
    cared about) were MONO. Stereo mixes were done as an afterthought, and
    often as if they were recorded in the old-2track formula.  The White
    Album was the first time any Beatle payed attention to a stereo mix.
    Revolution the fast one, being intended as a single, received the same
    old formulatic stereo mix.  Enough already!
    
    
    			**************************
    
    	Hip Hip Hoo-ray, mommy let me spring for a new 4 track cause i'm
    a big boy at 40, but still not as big as len.  I pushed it, and got
    the tascam 424, so i hope you who did are still happy, and i'm gonna
    be.  Maybe i'll even do something with a sequenced track and have
    a commusic submission.

    Has anyone actually used a PORTA03 ? Can it bounce tracks ect. like the
    more expensive ones? I would guess because its TASCAM, the transport
    is probably a little better than Fostex. Hopefully.
    
    I think for most of the semi/professionals in this conference, It is
    probably junk. But I don't have to do quality demos, I would use it
    more as a 'scratch pad' and general fooling around. I can get the
    PORTA03 for $265, and the 424 is over $400. Of course I would love the
    424, but I just can't justify 400 bucks on a machine I may only use once a
    week. I don't have MIDI or anything like that.
    
    If you have one and are embarrased about it, you can mail me off line!
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    Jay who_thinks_he_only_needs_the_porta03_but_wont_admit_it
    
    

    The MT100II has had passing mention in this topic, usually as an 'also
    ran'.  Has anyone actually got one?  Or done a serious comparison with
    a 424?  On paper these two look very similar.  Can anyone do a 'compare
    and contrast, either (or both) in terms of functionality and/or audio
    quality?
    
    Are there any good deals on either of these at the moment?
    
    
    John_in_the_UK_but_who_knows_someone_going_to_the_US_soon_and_sterling_is_
    quite_strong_at_the_momemt
    
    

    Re  -1;   I have just heard that the MT100II has been discontinued (??
    I thought it had not been out long) and replaced by a (cheaper?) MT120. 
    Anyone know anything about this?  If true, I guess my previous
    questions ought to be asked about that instead.