Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    If the CASIO has normal-sized keys, your fingers at least will get used
    to chord positions and fingering.  However, most synth keyboards have a
    very light, springy action, and the reflexes you build there will have
    little application on a 'regular' piano keyboard. 
    
    Another issue is that pedal training, correct use of the sustain and
    soft pedals, is not possible on most synths.  And there's the obvious
    muscle-memory issues when your hands, used to 49 keys, are faced with
    88...
    
    karl

Think of it as learning to type on a toy typewriter.  You can get the concepts
down, and learn some of the habits, but the reflex-level stuff won't transfer
to the real thing.

I second the motion that it is a perfectly reasonable place to start.  If you
are having fun and expect to want to play on acoustic pianos, you will probably
want to get a keyboard that is similar to them eventually.

	Eirikur

My opinion is "no."  You'll learn to play the keyboard but not the piano. 
There are lots of keyboard instruments (organ, harpsichord, etc.), so the
training should be valuable, as long as the keys are full-sized, not the
mid or mini ones.  

The issue of springy action is, in my mind, secondary to the issue of
velocity sensitivity.  My guess is that your unit does not have this
feature.  Having just had two daughters go through the early stages of 
piano lessons, one of the first things they are taught after learning the
notes is interpretation.  If the melody is in the right hand, the left
hand is supposed to play more softly.  This can't be done on your standard 
Casio organ.  I find that one of the most common things I do in piano
playing is stress one or more notes over the total number I am playing at
a given time.  Velocity sensitivity (also given names like touch response) 
gives you this ability.

Once you get velocity sensitivity, then you might ask about keyboard size
and weighted keys.  I find that my 61 key Casio is constraining mostly in
the left hand region.  I'd probably be happy enough with 76 keys (or
perhaps with a more sophisticated keyboard transposition capability).
However, my daughters will not in general practice on the Casio even
though it has velocity sensitivity and their pieces do fit in the 61 key
range.  Although I have programmed the sound to be surprisingly close
to our acoustic piano, the feel is the issue.  Keyboards with 
weighted keys cost a lot more, and then only a few really feel (to me)
like a good acoustic piano.

Pedal training is an issue, but the Casio does allow you to do a
relatively realistic sustain.  I bought a Roland pedal that looks and
feels a lot like a real piano sustain pedal.  The soft pedal (which tends 
to come later in training) is an issue, especially because the keys tend
to feel different on a real piano.

Hope this helps,

Alex

    I think it depends what you mean by learning to "play the piano". I
    don't consider myself a very good piano player (certainly not a
    pianist!), but I noticed something interesting.
    
    I have been hacking at piano playing for a long time, mainly the piano
    at my high school and occasionally had access to a friend's Hammond
    organ. I found the two VERY different - in fact I had trouble with the
    organ, feeling like I couldn't get the "fullness" I liked on the piano
    by using the pedal...
    
    Then a few years ago, I got a Roland keyboard, and WOW I could play
    riffs and stuff at least twice as fast as I could on the piano! The
    keyboard action is very light - lighter than the Hammond in fact.
    
    My conclusion is that pianos, organs and synths may look alike, but
    they are different instruments - even to an amateur like me.

I think the originator should listen strongly to .4, specifically because he
*does* claim amateur status.

I've been a piano player for *many* years (don't ask!), and I would have agreed
with the notion that velocity-sensitivity is both vital to and sufficient for a
beginning piano student. However, I'm *not* an amateur. Piano players, like
dancers, learn to adapt to different "partners" without a great deal of thought
or effort. However, a beginner who learns on a synth keyboard may have greater
difficulty playing piano, not having become accustomed to making that
adjustment; the difference between the keyboard feel of different pianos is
probably less than the difference between any synth (except the hugely expensive
weighted-action jobs) and a piano.

I still remember a definite period of adjustment when first playing our church's
pipe organ- there's a definite feeling of "pressing switches!" The beginning
kayboardist might feel just such a difference when transitioning from synth to
piano.

What's the upshot? It might *still* be worthwhile getting an inexpensive,
velocity-sensitive synth for starters; depends on your finances and goals. The
worst you'd get is the ability to play a synth well- nothing wrong with that!
If and when the transition to piano can be made, it should by no means be
impossible, but it will definitely be noticeable.

BTW, I have a Kawai K1-II, which I got for $595. There are other
velocity-sensitive out there these days which are around this price level. For
me, the velocity-sensitivity was the deciding factor in *not* staying at the
"Casio consumer line" level. I wish you well with your decision.

Cheers,
	Bob

    re.0: Does it have a MIDI interface? I'm planning to buy a CASIO (one with
    MIDI, less $100, and spider finger keyboard) just for the purpose to
    learn to play from music.
    
    Guenther

RE: cost.

I got my 61-key velocity sensitive semi-professional (somewhat consumer
like--has speakers and rhythms, somewhat professional--you can program
patches) HT6000 Casio two years ago used at Daddy's for $399.  I'd still
recommend that keyboard above what I have seen in the Casio home line
today.  Its MIDI implementation is better than most home units as well
(although not really professional since it lacks system exclusive).

There must be other used equipment also worth looking into.

Alex