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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:DYPSS1::SCHAFER
Created:Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2852
Total number of notes:33157

2425.0. "How Quiet is Too Quiet? " by MILKWY::JANZEN () Mon Aug 27 1990 13:17

    I have old classical records with sections that are nearly inaudible
    over the needle noise.  For example, the opening to Ive's 4th symphony.
    classical music has a very wide range of dynamics in most pieces,
    as opposed to pop/rock/new age which has a consitent volume.
    
    If noise reduction is getting better and better, and if 
    tape is getting better and better, and if the signal/noise is getting
    better and better, why not have very quiet pieces, especially short
    pieces in a suite?
    
    How quiet can you get?  0dB over noise seems OK to me for short
    phrases, higher for short pieces.
    Tom
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2425.1WEFXEM::COTEThe man in the polyester suit...Mon Aug 27 1990 13:278
    The commercial masses expect music to sound like what they are
    accustomed to; recordings. Compressed.
    
    Full dynamic ranges bug 'em.
    
    You'll never be a rock star with this silly idea...;^)
    
    Edd
2425.24GL::DICKSONMon Aug 27 1990 13:3913
    My experience is that the noise in the listening environment is more a
    factor than the noise on the tape.
    
    It depends on your audience.  Do you envision people sitting in their
    living rooms listening to your stuff?  Or maybe at work in a quiet
    office listening with headphones?  You can get real quiet.
    
    Or are they listening in their car on the way to work?  Forget it; the
    quiet parts will be inaudible over the road noise.   I used to try to
    listen to "Morning Pro Musica" while driving to Maynard (back when I
    used to work there) and it drove me nuts that Robert J. would put on
    all those Beethoven piano/violin pieces during "drive time".  They are
    way too quiet to listen to in a moving car.
2425.3RICKS::SHERMANECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326Mon Aug 27 1990 13:446
    Another factor is the dynamic range of the amps and such that the
    signal has to go through after coming of the, for example, CD.  I would
    imagine that an average CD player is capable of introducing much less
    noise than the average amplifier system.
    
    Steve
2425.4In concert or recorded?BAVIKI::GOODMichael GoodMon Aug 27 1990 13:495
And the effect of quiet pieces is different in concert and recorded
for individual listening.  Quiet pieces or moments in concert can 
really draw an audience in.  To me it dosn't have the same effect when 
listening at home.  There isn't the same "everyone on the edge of their
chairs" effect of being in an audience.
2425.5KEYS::MOELLERRage, with a megaphoneMon Aug 27 1990 18:125
    .. and you pump up the volume to listen to quiet passages, esp. in
    listening environments like a car, and then get BLASTED out when the
    'normal' volume passages kick in.
    
    karl
2425.6Hearing below the noiseCTHULU::YERAZUNISYou have won one of the following prizesMon Aug 27 1990 19:1918
    
    There are a few (very expensive) car audio systems that monitor the
    in-car noise level and boost/compress so that the audio always sounds
    acceptable (but perhaps a little different than expected).
    
    Re:signal/noise:  People can hear sounds that are several dB below the
    noise level (how far below is arguable- I've heard it is around 20 dB). 
    Vision is even better- a human visual cortex can *see* digits at 26 dB
    below noise- i.e. the power ratio of the valid signal to the noise
    signal on the video line is 400:1 against the valid signal...    
    
    This is one of the claims against "digital audio"- although a good
    vinyl record may deliver only 85 dB, the ear can hear 20 dB down
    into the noise, giving an effective range of 105 dB.  The CD 
    has 96 dB S/N- but anything smaller than the LSB is gone completely,
    so you don't get the additional 20 dB adder.
    
    	-Bill
2425.7MILKWY::JANZENMon Aug 27 1990 20:344
    An old radio handbook of mine gave a standard of -0dB for voice and
    -3dB separation for morse.  I don't remember what the standard meant.
    Maybe a minimum guideline.
    Tom
2425.8New Sony portable CD player with DAPDREGS::BLICKSTEINThis is your brain on UnixTue Aug 28 1990 13:3010
    >.. and you pump up the volume to listen to quiet passages, esp. in
    >listening environments like a car, and then get BLASTED out when the
    >'normal' volume passages kick in.
    
    Sony has just introduced a new portable CD players (ala D-2, D-4, etc.)
    that includes digital audio processing.
    
    Among the things you can do is have the player do compression, which
    according to the literature on it is intended to solve the problem
    you brought up.
2425.9I don't have a compressor and don't want oneMILKWY::JANZENTue Aug 28 1990 16:559
    Well, the tapes I made that have some quiet pieces on them should just
    be re-recorded (what a pain) with higher dynamic markings in the score
    (it's a score-based player).  When I recorded a movement from
    Beethoven's 9th for commusic ca. vii, I found that just transcribing
    the pianissimo's and triple-pianos  into the score was too quiet. 
    Maybe what I will make mf's into f's.  Or go the other way and make
    fff's into f's and set the -0dB to that for the set.
    That would bring up the mfs.
    tom
2425.10just thinking...FULCRM::PICKETTDavid - Will someone in Mass. please vote Republican for me?Wed Aug 29 1990 17:4711
    Hmmm. Mahler 2 is my favorite piece in the 'either you don't hear it,
    or it makes your ears bleed' category. In the final movement, the line
    'er auf su bebn' is sung at ppp level, and is followed by the line
    'bereite dich' with is sung ff. If you know it's coming, no problem.
    I've knocked the socks off some riders with that piece. Beethoven 5
    also doesn't work in the car. The slow crescendo in the bridge between
    the 3rd and 4th movements can get you to crank the stereo, and then get
    blown out on the three tutti chords that open the 4th movement.
    
    blah blah blah
    dp
2425.11Side Oom Schloongen, Milly Ownin'DRUMS::FEHSKENSlen, EMA, LKG2-2/W10, DTN 226-7556Thu Aug 30 1990 20:067
    Mr. Pickett, that's what you get for learning a vocal part phonetically
    ;^).
    
    Hort auf zu beben.
    
    len.
    
2425.12KOBAL::DICKSONThu Aug 30 1990 20:261
    I always wondered who Milly was.  :)
2425.13FULCRM::PICKETTDavid - Will someone in Mass. please vote Republican for me?Fri Aug 31 1990 15:279
    The Mahler Watchdog Force strikes again! I knew I should have consulted
    the libretto before posting a note that would be undergoing the
    exacting scrutiny of Len. Bagged again...  ;^)
    
    dp
    
    owf-er-shtain ya owf-er-shtain