Conference napalm::commusic_v1

The reason I ask is that I recently acquired the Yamaha WX11 wind controller and
the WT11 wind tone generator. The WT11 features some rather nice brass and sax
ensemble voices that might suit your purposes.

Depending on how well you want to emulate a horn section you might want to play
these voices through the WX11 (I imagine you could use the earlier WX7, too).
Alternatively, since the WT11 is a MIDI device, you could hook it up to one of
your keyboards and play the horn voices that way.


Chris

    Another thing to try for individual horns run on seperate MIDI channels
    is the use of MONO mode to avoid re-triggering the envelope for each
    new note. 
    
    I find it pretty easy to record the line in MONO and then adjust the
    gate time on the MC500 until the first note just slightly overlaps
    the second. A quick portomento often adds a more realistic flavor.
    
    Don't forget the horniacs have to breath occasionally. Leave spaces
    for them to do so...
    
    Edd

           I love big horn sections and like to emulate them on keyboards.
    I've got a horn sample for the Ensoniq EPS that is three horns in
    unison. It's a trombone and two trumpets. I think octaves work best as
    far as realistic horn section lines go. Add the fifth sometimes, but 
    hardly ever the third. I've had people (and musicians too 8^)) come
    up to me after a set and think I've got some tape with the horn parts
    pre-recorded! Nope, just my EPS! Actually, the sample is originally
    a Mirage sample, just converted to EPS format.
    	Also, volume modulation adds realism. THe initial attack is full
    volume and then the volume immediately decreaces, then inscreases
    slowly back to the original volume. I find it VERY hard to emulate
    a horn players pitch bend on a mod wheel. Horn sections tend not to
    do much pitch bending as it must be hard to get everybody to do it
    the same way!
    
            Have fun,
    
    
                   Frank

    Gee, when you said "horn" i thought you meant french horn.
    Horns technically must have flared bores; French horns have flared
    bores except around the valves, where it's cylindrical.  Trumpets and
    trombones have conical bores and are not horns.
    But I know the rock/pop/arranging world calls them horns, and sometimes
    the sax section with them.
    Just took me a few replies.
    I call the trumpets brass 
    and saxes winds.  Saxes have a conical bore, as well,
    by the way.
    Tom

    
    	but Tom, all pop/jazz musicians call 'em Horns...
    
    	Best horn award (in my ear) goes to the Super Jupiter...but,
    
    	you should have no trouble w/ proteus or U-220.
    
    	my fave is bari sax on bottom, trombone and trumpets in octaves,
        and tenor(s) layered in between.
    
    	Um, but dont expect realistic sounds by playing a C major chord
    	in 1st position......
    
    	Voicing chordal structures *LIKE* Tower of Power will be more
        important that the synth you use....
    
    ron
    

	I've been doing a lot of that (brass parts) too. My favorite sample
	on the EPS is a "sforz brass" that uses aftertouch to control dynamics.
	It's a unison sample of some trumpets and trombones. I occasionally
	(as the song warrants) also add a tenor sax or alto sax (I have 
	samples for both; the famous "Tom Metcalf" ensoniq stuff). I use
	lots of short unison riffs (sometimes adding an octave below as well),
	and, again where the music warrants, long tones with stingers, etc.
	Using aftertouch on the long tones, I can get that crescendo style
	which seems to work nicely (I get compliments from random listeners).

	Most of the time I find it easier to enter each brass part separately,
	with Dr. T's (or any other multitrack sequencer) that isn't very hard,
	and I can concentrate on a single part. I never use more than four
	parts for brass, myself. By using multiple samples (sforz brass, tenor
	sax, for example) the playback "sounds" better, i.e. one can discern
	separate instruments even if they are playing in unison. Also sounds
	better if they suddenly break into a chord during a riff. I also don't
	usually quantize brass parts - then they don't get too stiff and sound
	much more natural (I might occasionally quantize a segment of a riff
	that the "band" just didn't get to sound together enough, but I still
	don't quantize all the parts - gotta always have someone lagging 
	somewhere ;^) ) Thinking like a brass player helps, since they have to
	take a breath once in awhile. 

	/pjh

    Geting  a realistic horn section has been a side project of mine for
    the last couple of years.  I have a U220 and an M1. So far I have 
    achieve my best sounding section by using two trumpets, two trombone 
    and two saxes. 
    
    I detune all the patches (timbres/u220) -2 to 2, e.g 1st
    Trumpet=0, 2nd trmpet=-1, trombone=-2 etc. I pan them next to one
    another like the guys in a band would be lined up not one left and one
    right. I play each line in separeately of course.  
    
    I have also found using a brass patch played in mixed octaves and
    fifths to be just as effective in some music. The best horn section I 
    have have heard was on an EPS.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Errol

    With horns a little layering, a little chorusing and a little reverb go
    a long way.  Ditto what others have said about getting time to breathe
    and adding pitch bend and other dynamics.  BUT, I disagree about the 
    assertion that horns tend to fall off quickly and that crescendo back.  
    I've always felt that patches that do this are trying to emulate the 
    changes that occur after the attack.  Thereafter, the crescendo back is 
    what happens if you let the patch play for "too long".  Turns out that 
    this can become a feature that you can use if you set things up right.  
    But, my band and orchestra conductors would have kabobbed me with their 
    batons if I had pulled that trick on my trombone.  Getting a good, natural 
    sounding sustained sound with some synths like, for example, an FM synth 
    that emulates a trombone can be pretty tough.  A lot easier to shoot
    for something that sounds like a chorus or to shoot for short attacks.
    
    Steve

    A good reverb is probably important because brass instruments are so
    loud that in any club you can hear lots of room, so imitating live
    brass requires attention to the room.
    Tom

    Also note recent work showing that louder instruments have more high
    harmonic content, especially loud brass has much more energy in high
    harmonics that quiet brass, which starts getting siney almost, like in
    quiet trombone solos.
    Tom

    re Tom's .11 about quiet brass parts having little energy in the
    harmonics.    This rings true to me, especially after trying to work
    with the trombone and 3 (!) tuba samples in my Korg O3's.  I get to the
    point where I have trouble telling them apart in sustained notes, and I
    even get to the point where I suspect a synth would do a better job
    (dynamic response, etc.).  A sampler with dynamic filters might allow
    some subtle but noticable distinction.
    
    	Eirikur
    

A few months ago they had a special about sound on PBS.  One thing they did
was play a trumpet loudly and softly into a mic hooked up to some sort of
scope.  They measured the energy in the various frequency ranges.  Soft parts
had very little high frequency energy.  It was pretty neat.

Chad

    Thanks for all the replies so far.  Glad to see others working on similar
    ideas.
    
    On the Knebworth 90 concert recently on MTV, Paul McCartney's keyboard
    player (name escapes me) did some pretty convincing horn section imitations.
    
    Re: .6, Ron your comments about voicing like TOP was good.  Can anyone
    give additional examples of what voicings horn sections use in a pop/rock
    context?
    
    This conference is always such a fountain of useful information :-)
    
    		Derek

	I've been using a sampled trumpet on my U-110 as well one of the
	synth brass patches on my MT-32. The envelope is different for
	both of these sounds and they give a bit of delay (humanized I
	guess) to the same sequence. I run them on 2 different MIDI channels,
	but basically just copy one channel over to the other.

	I second the thought about not quantizing the horns. They tend to 
	sound peculiar if you do.

	Another thing about horns (trumpet stuff in particular) is that
	they add more dynamics if you mix choppy parts up with drawn
	out parts (ie. 32nd notes versus whole notes). In other words, play
	them appropriately for each song, don't come up with a single
	method for using them.

	For Sax's, I like to detune them with the pitch wheel about
	1/3 of a note, then release the pitch wheel as I hit the key.
	Sax's tend to slide into notes (Trumpets and Trombones do also
	but it's a lot more noticable on a Sax). Also, don't hesitate
	to modulate Sax's after a note has been held for a short while.

	I find that mixing the exact same MIDI controller messages to
	both a synth and sample player playing the same types of sounds,
	the same notes & the same velocities feels very live.

								Jens

    An old rule about orchestration (probably from the
    Berlioz/rimsky-korsakov book) was that harmony should be complete in
    all sections.
    Of course they didn't do that it their scores ;-).  
    I think that putting octaves in one sections (trumpets ) and full
    chords in another (saxes) is a melody/accompaniment relationship
    is just fine.  Another coutermelody could be in the trombones.
    Tom

    Good topic, and one of my musical Achilles' heels..
    
    I found a good combo to give a wonderful '40's big-band sound.
    
    Set your digital delay to one or two (at most) repeats, timed exactly
    to the BPM of the piece.  Someone mentioned using the pitchbend wheel
    to slide into a note.  Playing a widely-voiced chord with the right
    hand, while sliding the pitch up, gives a great big-band horn section.
    
    karl

    
    I have also been playing with this recently for live use and have found
    the following to be uesfull.
    
    I use three samples basically.
    
    A unison multi brass patch, I couldn't tell you how many instruments
    are involved but it sounds big and Glitzy. I record the first track
    using this patch playing the basic brass Part.
    
    I then add a trumpet or Tromb part playing a harmony purely to taste
    rather than worked out in any way. I.E. I couldn't tell you if it's
    3rds 5ths or what It's all done by ear.
    
    I then add a SAX part in the same way.
    
    All of these parts are monophonic. which I think is why the sound is
    more realistic. There is nothing worse than 3part brass chords played
    on a synth. Shades of Eye Of The Tiger.
    
    				Paul. 

    I sorta touched on it in another note but the underlying theme of my
    suggestion is make good use of the various means of articulation
    to do what REAL horn sections do.
    
    o Start with a good sample/patch.  IMO it's very useful if you have
      a patch that does significant things with velocity.  A hard hit
      should have a sharp attack curve and that sorta horn "stab" sound.
      A soft hit should have a smoother contour for sustained notes.
    
    o Use either a gliss or a pitch bend to do "fall-offs" at the end
      of a phrase.
    
    o Horn sections frequently do "swells" so using after-touch makes
    
    o What Ron said about chord voicings is very important.  Triads simply
      don't cut it - horn sections don't play that way.  I think the
      primary things I hear horn sections doing are:
    
    	+ playing in unison (although possibly with two octaves)
    
    	+ Two note voicings - often the chord changes have a connecting
    	  note.  So like a C->G chord change might be voiced with
    
    	  G------->
    	  C -->D-->
    
        + Very "wide" 3 or 4 note voicings
    
    o "When to play" is important.  Most horn parts are between a chorus
      or a verse and are limited to one "lick".  Sometimes the horns also
      play in "spaces" between the vocals.
    
      The main point is that you turn off your keyboardist tendency to
      play all the way through the piece.  The big change for me is to
      find the "spaces" to play, and concentrate more on "licks" than
      chords/melody.
    
    I sorta took an intensive self-study of horn sections in preparation
    for doing my COMMUSIC VII submission and it was really interesting
    to study horn players and horn section arrangements.
    
    Basically, I suggest just listening to a lot of horn sections that
    you've always liked.
    
    I also have this GREAT concert Huey Lewis video with the Tower of Power 
    horn section.  I studied that a lot because I thought that horn section
    took some mediocre pop songs and turned them into great arrangements
    that always get my feet moving and fingers snapping.
    
    I'm not really a very big Huey Lewis fan, but I can listen to the tunes
    with the horn section over and over again.
    
    	db
    

    re .17 and Karl's suggestion about synching the delay time to the
    metronome - here it is 1990 and as far as I know there are *still* no
    MIDI controlled digital delays that allow you to specify their time
    parameters in terms of MIDI clocks; similarly there are still no synths
    that allow specification of their time parameters (e.g., attack times,
    lfo frequencies) in terms of MIDI clocks.
    
    An aside, I admit, but apropos the subject.
    
    len.
    

As a trumpet player, this is a topic that has interested me
for a while.

The only electronic horn section I've heard that sounds realistic
is on Madonna's "I'm Breathless" album.  I wouldn't know the real
horns from the electronic horns on that album if it wasn't that the
album credited the people who played the real horns.  In fact I
still find it hard to believe those are electronic (sampled,
synth, whatever) horns - they're that good.  I'd highly recommend
getting the album and finding the article Edd mentioned in .2.

db's advice is good too - he's done very good work with horn
articulation on the latest Commusic tape.

    > here it is 1990 and as far as I know there are *still* no MIDI
    > controlled digital delays that allow you to specify their time
    > parameters in terms of MIDI clocks; 
    
    Don't ask me which it was, but I know positively that I've seen
    an ad or review of a delay that can do that.
    
    There are also "delays" that work on the MIDI data itself.  I can't
    imagine all that much utility to that (but some).
    
    > similarly there are still no synths that allow specification of their
    > time parameters (e.g., attack times, lfo frequencies) in terms of MIDI
    > clocks.
    
    You got me in this one.  As nice as a feature as that would be, I don't
    know of any synths with it either.

Many moons ago I played lead trumpet in a big band.  We called it a stage
band.  Anyway,  most scores and most bands have of this type have 6
trumpets, 4 trombones and 6 or so saxes, plus drums, bass and keyboard.

When I was playing lead, most of the notes I played where above high C and
louder than the rest of the horn section. The orchestration was very varied
depending on the intent of the composer.  Sometimes the notes were
clustered together in a "tight" chord other times they were spread out quite
a bit.  Not all the brass instruments have to strike together.  This is a
common mistake I hear with some songs.   Many times we were playing parts
that were not together.

The layout of our band was:

                  4th 3rd 2nd lead 2nd 3rd 4th   Trumpets
                      3rd 2nd lead 2nd 3rd       Trombones
                                                 Saxes

One thing to keep in mind with brass instruments is you have to rest.  You
can't play all the time, the chops won't last the night.  Therefor, we did
quite a bit of resting.

I think it is quite hard to imitate a brass band with a synth.  When a
brass player is playing he/she is constantly adjusting their intonation,
syncopation, vibrato, etc with the other members of the band.  I find this
difficult to do on my keyboard.

Hope this helps.

Dana

    
    
    	better late then never -  having spent some recent time looking
    and listening to lot's of horns....
    
    		. trumpets usually play either 1-3, 3-5, 1-5 or unison -
    never a triad.
    
    		bones or tenors sometimes play the root.
    
    		bones is the only horn that portamento is very useful for
    	although i lioke edd's idea of short portamento...
    
    		baritone sax and or tubas make nice bottom. I've heard an
    	arraingment where the bari-sax plays a third above tuba - nice...
    
    
    		The best horns from McCartney's show seemed to come from
    	the Akai sampler he used.  There was a passage in one song which
    appeared to come from the d-50 that seemed pretty lame...
    
    	bob