Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    The workstation was one of our Tandy buyouts, so I'm sure this was all
    MIDI via MPU or other standard PC interface. I didn't see any Sun
    stations, but there was a Mac. The guy had a video that was probably
    SMPTE'd to the sequencer that played at the end of the show. He had
    a D-50 and several rack SGU's. I was working the show so I didn't have
    time to see any demos, just the show at the end.
    
    CdH
    

    I saw part of the demo. It seemed to be aimed at giving a view of
    NAS. I may be wrong in some of this, but I saw a MAC with Performer
    and a PC with a sequencer I didn't know, all MIDId to a couple of
    keyboards and some rack mount gear (I saw a couple of U-220s).
    
    One guy played a bass line into Performer. The sequence was saved
    as a MIDIfile and sent to the PC via LANworks (or is it lanWORKS...no
    rat-holes please). A melody line was then added by a second guy
    on another kbd into the PC sequencer. Itwent on this way until they
    built up the piece. 
    
    All in all it seemed to impresss people (there was always a good
    crowd ooing and aawing). I think though that the creativity and
    the novelty of the demo is what got people's interest as most of
    them would not have understood MIDI and probably thought that NAS
    supported the music end of things.
    
    10 out of 10 though to the demonstrators for their unique approach.
        
    Ken
    

    
    The demo was basically meant to show DEC's ability to integrate PC's
    and Macs, using a VAX as a file server. They had Cakewalk and another
    sequencer (forget which one) running on the Mac and the DEC PC. Both
    were using a common area on the VAXstation disk. They'd start a song on
    the Mac (taking requests from the audience to prove they were doing it
    live, I saw them do 'Stairway to Heaven') and then bounce over to the
    PC and add a bass track, then back to the Mac for a flute solo. All
    transparent to the user. I guess both sequencers must use MIDI standard
    files, allowing them to add tracks from either place. 
    
    My group did a similar thing at a show a few months back, bouncing a
    spread sheet between a PC, a MAC, a VAX and a UNIX/RISC box. But the
    music demo was defintely more entertaining. 
    
    Probably no big deal to most of the folks in this notes file, but the
    audience seemed to enjoy it. They did have a very nice rack full  of
    Roland U-220s and D-50 type synths. The other cute thing they did was
    a pre-recorded sequence, with 3 or 4 different PCs synced to one
    master. Next to each CPU they had an individual speaker, and when it
    came time for that PC to do it's "solo", they would introduce it, like
    "on flute, the DECstation from Boston". And the sound for that solo
    would come from the individual speaker next to the PC. Silly, but fun.
    
    Rob
    
    
    
    

I talked to the guy who did the show.  (I didn't see it but I was right 
next to it fixing a probem at the Rdb PC/Mac demo) From what I remember, 
they had some canned music as well as some live recording.  The canned music
was composed by a dec person (the guy I talked to, whose name I've forgotten)
and synced through SMPTE to a laser disc showing a video.  A Mac picked up
the SMPTE from the disk and then sent MTC (I think) to the other PCs for timing.
The score was spread out amonsgt several different PCs and Macs.  The VAX was
the "conducter" of the whole thing, in that it was the file server where
all the score files were stored.  It was definitely a LanWORKS (I checked
a Mac LanWORKS manual for spelling) / NAS demo.  Supposedly it is supposed
to be more interesting than a spreadsheet moving around between machines.

Chad

    
    Well I was wondering if anyone was ever going to get around to
    submitting a note on the Network Music Demo.  I'm suprised it took this
    long seeing that it was at a large DEC show in the Boston area where
    most of you MIDIots contributing to this file reside...
    
    Allow me to introduce myself, I'm one of the "guys".  (Nice to see my
    name was so well remembered!)  -- Tom Robert from the PC Tech Support
    group in Littleton to be exact.  The other "guy" was Jack Hart,
    group/project manager of the DECstation (PC, not RISC Workstation, we
    gotta do something about our naming conventions!) also from Littleton.
    We also had fellow COMMUSICer Derek Speed as well as a couple other
    DECies substitute in once in a while.
    
    I mentioned the demo a couple months back buried inside a note
    pertaining to another topic and I've mentioned it to a couple
    COMMUSICers in the past, but under advise from a fellow employee I did
    not create a topic on it in this notes file... but since the cat's out
    of the bag now...
    
    The previous replies have got it nailed down pretty good: It is a NAS
    demo (although developed and supported from the PC group) a demo very
    similiar to what's been done in the past and currently using bussiness
    applications such as spreadsheets and word processors -- although we
    decided to spice it up a bit by using MIDI and Music instead.  Jack
    came up with the idea around March and sketched it on a cocktail napkin
    at a bar down at the Cape -- now it's reality!  It's gotten tremendous
    response -- using a universal language, music -- to get across our
    marketing messages.  People love it and it's going places.
    
    The original demo was done for PC EXPO in NYC back in June on a much
    grander scale...  the whole stage area in the front of the booth was
    designed around the music demo.  We had an "Orchrestra Pit" setup where
    the PCs and Macs actually sat on chairs and were the members of the DEC
    LanWORKS Symphony Orchrestra.  Everything was MIDIed up including eight
    spotlights which I programmed to go along with the Solos and the
    Finale.  It was a hugh success -- we packed them in every show,
    standing room only, into the aisle and the neighbooring booth!  In all
    my years of trade shows for DEC I've NEVER seen us have such a popular
    demo/booth.
    
    Yes, DEC (our CC) bought ALL of the equipment including a rack unit
    containing a Tascam MM-1 Mixer, 2 Roland U-220s, 2 Mark of the Unicorn's
    MIDI Time Pieces, a Digitech DSP 256, and a Carver Amp.  Also 2 JBL
    Speakers, 8 Kawaii KM-20 Powered Monitors, a Roland W-30, a Roland
    D-50, 8 PC MIDI interfaces, several packages of Cakewalk, Voyetra,
    Performer, and even Finale so we could do scoring on the Mac!  Not to
    mention the Sunn MIDI controlled light panel, 3 MIDI controlled dimmer
    paks and a dozen spotlights!  Whew!  I think that's everything...
    (Can you tell I've been excited to work on this demo?)  Everything was
    purchased from either E.U. Wurlitzers or Acton Music.
    
    The 3 components of the demos were as follows:  First we introduced
    certain members of the orchrestra by having them solo on different
    instruments that did come from individual speakers located right next
    to that particular machine or "Performing Desktop" as we like to call
    them.  We used the individual outs of the W-30 and virtual MIDI volume
    sliders in Performer on the Mac for this.
    
    Next we do the live demonstration where we build up a small multi-track
    MIDI recording by bouncing the sequence back and forth between a PC and a
    Mac.  This is the part that truly shows off our messages of transparent
    integration between DOS, OS/2, and Macintosh using DEC LanWORKS.  We
    made use of standard MIDI files which both applications support.  ALL
    the files were kept in a common directory on the VAX, yet all were
    accessible as if they were on a local hard drive to all the PCs and
    Macs.  Jack would record some piano using Performer on the Mac, save it
    away, then I would instantly bring up the same file using Cakewalk on
    my PC.  I would play back part of it and then add a bass, flute,
    percussion whatever fit.  I would save it back.  Then Jack would bring
    it up once more on the Mac and add a third part.  Voila!  Universally
    understood transparent file sharing between two completely different
    desktops.  Whether you understood spreadsheets or even English it
    didn't matter as long as you weren't deaf!  (Can you tell I've been
    plaqued by marketing?!)
    
    For the finale we would show a video on the projection screen and sync
    one of our pre-recorded MIDI compostions to it via SMPTE.  Only
    everyone got in on the action.  Each PC or Mac (and by the way we had
    several 3rd party PCs in this as well which made it that much more
    impressive) played a different instrument in the compostion.  They all
    had their clocks synced to the Master Mac which was decoding the SMPTE.
    What impressed me was that Performer took care of the Direct Time Lock
    and Song Position Pointer -- we could shuttle the video to any point
    and start it playing and within 2 seconds our whole DEC LanWORKS
    Orchestra would be synced up and playing the right part of the
    sequence perfectly!
    
    Well that's pretty much the Music Demo as it stands today, however
    we're continuing developement on it.  We're working on integrating
    Workstations, Ultrix, Computer Graphics, Databases, and Terminals/Printers 
    into it.  For instance, using Finale on the Mac we can create a PostScript 
    version of the score and then instantly pull it up on one of our 
    workstations using a tech publisher package and add images (perhaps the
    composer's image using VAX Camera) and/or text to it, and then print it
    out on our laser printer and hand it to someone.
    
    For integrating the database I had the idea of storing a bunch of MIDI
    sequences with record attributes of the composer/sequence.  It would be
    like any other database demo but with the magic touch of being able to play
    back any of the retreived records!  Sort of a Network Juke Box.
    I may actually be asking for the help of you MIDIots out there who have
    sequences to offer for the database.  Wouldn't that be great, a hugh
    collection of sequences all composed by DEC employees!  I have to wait
    to see how things pan out with the demo and legal-wise though before
    I'll submit a formal request for something like this though.
    
    Hope this wasn't too long winded but I've been waiting to talk about
    this demo in here for quite some time now.  I thinks it's a great step
    for DEC as far as demos and a new image go.  We've gotten great press
    on it internally and externally from both Computer and Music sources
    including the personal interest of the vice-president of Roland.
    
    Next stop: Dallas, Texas for NetWorld the week of September 8th.
    (Any of you Texan DECie MIDIots out there, try to stop by)
    
    -Tom
    
    

    Of course, this all works because the music industry has agreed on
    a standard file format.  Too bad the spreadsheet and wordprocessor
    people can't do the same thing.  :)

What a job. Your boss buys you all your favourite toys, then pays you to play
with them.

Where do I go to get a job like that?


Chris

    
    I guess you just had to be at the right place at the right time...
    
    Actually I had to switch jobs.  I was in Workstations BPM when Jack
    called me and asked for my assistance.  (Jack used to be in W/S BPM
    which is how I know him)  At first I had the support of my management
    to work on the demo -- but the deal was that it would include
    workstations so that it could be used at a flashy workstation show, ie.
    SIGGRAPH.  This soon fell through due to lack of any MIDI interface for
    our workstations.  
    
    [Derek Speed was working with someone on the West Coast 
    on a Multi-Media demo which included an adapted Apple MIDI
    interface for the DECstation 5000... then one day the guy up and left,
    and that was that.  You may recall a note I entered a few months ago
    discussing possibilities of a SCSI to MIDI interface, now you know what
    that was all about]
    
    Anyways, I was getting a lot of push back from management spending time
    on the Music Demo when it didn't include any workstation content, so...
    I up and left too!  Joined the PC Tech Support Group and here I am.
    What's nice though is that I still have the Workstation experience and
    it looks like they'll let me add the W/S content from this end.
    
    [Hey, if you can't PULL a file over, log onto the other side and PUSH
    it over!]
    
    -TR

    Gaaack!  All those goodies ...  and being PAID, too!  And, you probably
    aren't getting in trouble with the wife and kids because of your
    "work".  Only goes to show that the only way to get really good
    equipment is to find a way to have someone else pay for it ...
    Best of luck.  If you haven't already, you might search through the
    COMMUSIC tapes to see if there are any submissions there that could be
    ported to your system.  (I don't have MIDI files, but I do have QX5
    tapes that could be dumped to a QX5 (I am currently "at liberty" as
    far as any MIDI equipment goes -- I gots nothing) and diddled with.)
    
    Steve

    I have tons of originals in PERFORMER format.
    
    BTW, Tom, you or Jack Hart are gonna get a request to come to Arizona
    in early October (nice here then!) for the AFCEA show (Armed Forces
    Communication ___ ____).. I'd be more than happy to work the booth with
    anyone that shows up.
    
    I had to explain to the sales rep (you spoke to her at DECworld) 
    involved that there was a lot more going on than just getting PC's, a 
    MAC and some software.. 
    
    karl

    
    .8:  I don't have a wife OR kids, so that's not a problem anyways, but
    I'll drink to the rest of what you said.  (For that matter, I'll drink
    to not having a wife or kids either!)
    
    .9:  If we start requesting MIDI sequences,  we could accept anything now 
    in Performer, Cakewalk or Voyetra formats, or any standard MIDI file
    for a PC or Mac, or Roland MC500,300,compatible.  But I'm sure there's
    enough support in this conference/area to get a hold of whatever
    sequencer was needed and dump it to Performer.  The COMMUSIC tapes is a
    great idea too, I've read this conference for over 5 years and have never
    participated or even heard the COMMUSIC tapes...  this would be a good
    time.
    
    .10:  Hi Karl.  Yes, I remember being approached at DECworld about
    that.  I told them I knew of you thru this conference, it sounded like
    you already had them sold on this stuff even before they even heard of
    the music demo!  It would be great to get together out there.  We'll
    have to see how that event pans out with the rest of what we're doing
    in October.
    
    The other great thing about the music demo (or not so great depending
    on where/when) is that we've had requests for it all over the globe...
    Seriously- Singapore, Japan, Austrailia, Europe... maybe we should
    design some World Tour Jackets!
    
    -TR
    
    

One thing which hasn't yet been mentioned, and which your customers should
be warned about before seeing/hearing this demo, is the high pun level
attained by the presenters :-)

For the demo I saw, suggested songs included Billy Joels 'PianoLAN', Led
Zeppelin's 'Gateway to Heaven' and others which my memory won't let me remember!

Personally I think they should have stuck to old favourites like 'LAN of Hope
and Glory' (always goes down well here in the UK), Abba's 'Gimme Gimme Gimme
a LAN after Midnight' etc :-)

But seriously folks, I was very impressed with this demo, and if a similar
thing ever gets set up in the UK I volunteer to be responsible for buying
all of the equipment.

Cheers,

    Derek.

P.S. If you're syncing to video you could always show a bit of 'The LAN That
Time Forgot'. Aaarrrggh I can't stop !!!

    
    Please, go on, we could use more suggestions... other's we have done
    are This LAN is your LAN, the Candy LAN, Ether Cat (Alley Cat),
    and we've thought about Bridge Over Troubled Water and Fifty Ways to
    File on your Server.  (Get on the Q-Bus Gus, Hop off the Net Chet, Just
    Drop in the PC Lee, and set yourself free...)
    
    We've got some lyrics to The Candy LAN as well (backup vocals):
    
    Who can take a Network (Who can take a Network),
    Add in some PCs (Add in some PCs)
    Sprinkle in a Macintosh or Two,
    Digital Can (Digital Can), DEC LanWORKS Can!  (DEC LanWORKS Can!)
    
    A brave offer to purchase the equipment, you might just get held to
    that!  Seriously, PC Integration is a big thing in Europe, I'm sure
    there's several places over there that would like to have something
    like this.
    
    -TR
    

    You better not be using copyrighted music for promotional purposes
    without paying appropriate fees.

Hmmm... seems everybody out in the US has heard the demo! But what about us
poor people living in Europe? What about submitting at least the demo
sequences to interested people in Europe?

Joerg

I work at CERN in Geneva but happened to be working at the RISCserver demo booth
at DECworld, right next to the LAN (MIDI Music) Demo.  It was great!  I talked 
to Tom, I think, as they were setting things up.  Anyway, one of my first jobs
here was to work with the MIS people on the PC integration problem.  There are
maybe 4000 Macs and 2000 PCs at CERN plus a multitude of SUNs, Apollos, DEC
workstations all needing to communicate etc.  I think they would love the DEMO
here!

John

    
    .14:  The legal aspect of using those tunes never occured to me... but
    then again they didn't occur to anyone else either.  This demo has been
    shown at two large shows now and seen by 1,000s of people including
    corporate and legal/shmegal type people and nobody has questioned that
    part of it, let alone objected to it.
    
    What's the deal on that though?  We're not playing copyrighted recorded 
    material off of any media source, or even pre-bought/recorded sequences, 
    and we're certainly not selling the MUSIC in any form... we're just playing
    live a few bars of the tune.  Cover bands go out and play copyrighted
    music all the time for promotional purposes, they're promoting
    themselves... should they/do they pay any fees?
    
    .15: The used sequences themselves hardly represent the demo.  I really
    don't know of how much interest they'd be to anyone.  There's Jack's
    COPYRIGHTED World Anthem, my version of the disco version of 
    Beethoven's 5th, and the solo sequence which is just a looped I IV V
    riff with a bunch of looped solo instruments within it, and there's
    a few others we keep around that Jack did.  Jack's World Anthem is very
    good, but otherwise we offer nothing extraordinary compared to the
    average COMMUSICers sequences.
    
    .16: Yes John, I believe I was the one that talked to you too.  Europe
    sounds great to me, and CERN definetly sounds like a great setting for the
    demo!  Escpecially with the addition of Ultrix support, this means that
    other UNIX vendors, such as Sun, could "play" along via NFS.
    
    If you, or anyone else for that matter that has a valid and opportune
    use of this demo, and would like to have it at a certain event, you
    could make a formal request directly to me for it now.  I'll handle
    it or find the right person to divert it to.
    
    Part of the original scope and implementation plan of this demo was to
    make it scalable so that could be set up to different degrees at different 
    locations/events, even by non MIDI/Musical people-- at ACTs for example.
    (not that there's NO MIDI/Musical people at ACTs, but you know what I
    mean) We are working on putting together some form of "kit" including
    the recommended equipment, documentation, and of course all the
    marketing messages free of charge, so that if we cannot entertain the
    demo personally, you will have the opportunity to do it yourself.
    
    -TR
    
                     

    if there's a copyright in force, the holder is entitled to
    reimbursement.
    
    Edd

    Often those folks who gig have already paid for the privilege by paying
    royalties.  For example, my landlord who gigs pays these through extra
    charges on the sequences he buys.  I think it does not matter how much
    you play of a tune if it can be identified as a copyrighted piece.  If
    I were you I would run, not walk, to your legal representative.  This
    could be a potentially embarassing situation for Digital - especially
    if the press were to get hold of it.  Having thousands hurts your case
    because of the number of folks who were entertained.  Please keep us
    informed about how this goes.  And, keep in mind that Digital has "deep
    pockets" which is a difference between the company and those who gig
    without paying royalties and "get away" with it.
    
    Steve

    
    It doesn't hurt to check with the legal beagles, but make sure you're
    dealing with one who is familiar with the entertainment industry.  A
    lawyer who knows corporate law will not necessarily have the 'working'
    knowledge needed for these types of questions.  

    DEC was using pictures of certain Walt Disney characters to demonstrate
    some of our early graphics terminals at trade shows.  Nobody watching
    complained then either.
    
    Until a Disney lawyer walked up and told us to cut it out or face a
    lawsuit.
    
    There is plenty of non-copyrighted music out there you could use.

You are putting Digital at great risk both legally and from the perception
of being a bad company that steals.  (Thats the way it would be run
through the press.)

A friend of mine had a coffee house in Maynard.  He had an open mike
and every once in a while a "paid" performer too.  It was a shoestring
operation.  Somebody came in one day and said he owed a couple hundred
bucks a week to ASCAP (or whoever reperesents music copyrights).  He
said under pain of forclousre maybe and never heard from them again.  
By the way the guy never paid for his coffee either.  %^)

In a former life we were presenting seminars.  A co-worker attended
a competing seminar and copied one slide from their handouts for his
program.  A few months later a student in the seminar picked up his
camara when the slide was on screen photographed it and sued us.  I
still remember him saying to me, "I shouldn't worry it was only one
slide".

I talked with members of another seminar program and asked for permission
to repsorduce materials with appropirate credit given.  (We weren't competing
and it seemed ok.)  The person I spoke said it sounded like a good idea
because it would promote their program.  I sent a follow up letter thanking
them and detailing which slides I wanted to use and how I would indicate their
ownership of the work.  I received a letter back from their lawyers
(half the page was names of lawyers) saying "No conversation had ever
taken place."

Another friend of mine had a radio ad (prepared by the station) that included
a little harmonica riff.  He got a very angry call from the musician.
He forwarded the call to the station and his ad was pulled immeadiately
and redone.

    When Laurie Anderson performed at the Bershire performance center a
    month ago, she talked about how a japanese car commercial use something
    so close to O, Superman (the pulsing voice, and even the same "chord
    progression" if you could call it that, and she contacted them.  She
    didn't give the outcome, but I got the impression they stopped.
    Once someone said a wine commerical in California did the same thing,
    but we didn't know what happened.
    I am extremely careful not to use other poeple's material in
    performance.  ONCE I played music by another person, I got him to send
    a letter giving me permission.
    Performance artists often use protected material, and I tell all my PA
    friends never do that.  Stories are, an agent hears of it and it stops,
    but there's no suit, they just say "stop it."  I mean poetry and
    writing and plays.
    Performance art is often for audiences of 20 in downtown lofts.
    But they still can't afford being liable; they're broke.
    Maybe that's why no one sues.
    ;-)
    Tom

    
    Recently, both Bette Midler and Tom Waits have been awarded damages in
    cases over commercials that used "soundalikes".  The Midler case was
    over that "Do you want to dance?" car commercial (Mercury?).  In both
    cases it was argued that viewers (listeners) would think it was the
    "real" artist.
    
    Does this mean Bruce Stringbean can sue John Melonhead now?
    
    						Brian

> Cover bands go out and play copyrighted music all the time for promotional 
> purposes, they're promoting themselves... should they/do they pay any fees?
    
The acts themselves don't pay any fees. But the clubs/facilities they play at 
do, and that covers all the acts that play there. ASCAP and BMI are the two
non-profit organizations that collect these fees, then distribute them to
the artists/publishers/songwriters. You might want to check with either of 
these organizations to find out how to 'do the right thing'. (Sorry, I don't
know where/how to contact them....)

alan

    
    ASCAP
    
    10 Speen St
    Framingham MA
    
    (508)875-3515
    
    Remember if you call, and you give them your name, you're bagged.
    
    CdH
    

    
    Wow, what a can of worms that was!  I never realized all the legal
    implications.  (great info and "war" stories, thanks!)  I agree though,
    where can I find a corporate laywer at DEC who knows enough about the
    music/entertainment sides of things?  Usually our trade show/marketing
    people are very good about catching things like that, at least for
    further investigation.  In fact, the video we use at the end to sync to,
    has cuts of footage from the Bicentinial celebration at the Statue
    of Liberty that we had to pay $25/sec for!
    
    > There's plenty of non-copyrighted music out there you could use...
    What's the fastest way to find out whether a certain piece has any
    current copyrights on it?
    
    -TR
    

    The fastest way is to look for copyright notices in a publication.
    It's usually a copyright symbol followed by (minimally) the year of the
    copyright.  There might also be the name of the copyright owner.  If it
    is music that you've heard on the radio, better plan on it being
    copyrighted.  Even though your legal people may not know what to do,
    they should know other people who should know.  So, I'd start with your
    own legal people and alert them to the situation ... today.
    
    
    Steve

    Depends what radio station you listen to.  :)
    
    Anything written earlier than 1900 is *probably* not copyrighted, but
    no guarantees.   Note that even sheet music for Beethoven will have a
    copyright notice on the bottom, but that is for the publisher of that
    particular score, not for the music contained therein.  Sometimes it
    is the *arrangement* that is copyrighted.
    
    As for DEC legal help, start with the Media Services department in
    Bedford.  They have to worry about this for the training videos they
    produce and probably know which lawyer will understand the issues.
    Make it clear that you are not interested in recorded music, but in
    performance rights.

    
    
    I was once told that there are two types of lawyers.  That is the
    kind that work full time for a company.  There are corporate lawyers
    and there are people "in the field".  The main distinction is that when
    you have a problem/question the corporate lawyer will review it after
    you research and write it.  The field lawyer will right it for you.  My
    informant was a "corporate" lawyer for a Fortune 10 firm and my
    personal experience has been the same. Any observations?
    

    I spoke to John McLaughlin's lawyer in New York this morning.  We're
    negotiating a mechanical rights license fee for version 9.Edd of my
    arrangement of "Meeting of the Spirits", an early (and misnamed)
    version of which some of you heard on Commusic 7.  Yes, I'm serious
    about it, and am putting together another album.
    
    Perhaps this guy would do some moonlighting for DEC...
    
    MAIL me if you want his name/#, Tom
    
    karl

What are the legal implications of someone in the audience requesting a bit
of a tune and the folks doing the demo playing a few bars.  Would you just pay
a blanket fee to ASCAP and/or BMI or would you have to c"clear" each tune 
beforehand?

Thanks

Chad

Without wanting to further complicate the issue, be aware that the law
around this can change dramatically from country to country. In the UK
you do not have to pay copyright provided that you play less than a certain
amount of the tune. I don't know how long 'a certain amount' is, but it's 
of the order of 20 seconds. We had a spell in the UK a few years ago of
chart records made up of snippets of old hits sequed together (under the
group name 'Stars on 45'). The people behind these records did not have to
pass any royalties on to the original arists.

We could get into a discussion on whether samples can be copyrighted too,
but I think that that would get too complex and emotive :-)

Why not just stick to jamming a twelve bar ?

As a further idea, you might want to consider encouraging some audience
participation - this would conclusively prove that it's not done with
smoke and mirrors ! (Get a MIDI guitar and you'd increase your chances of
getting people to join in)

Cheers,

    Derek.

    
    Well it looks like what we want to do is handle it how the clubs do...
    but let me get this strait:  They a pay a certain fee (monthly,
    yearly?) and that covers them for any artist(s) to come and perform
    anybody's song?  Or do they have to still keep track of what songs are
    done much like a radio station keeps a log of songs aired?
    
    We could stick to a 12 bars jam, but that's what we use for the solos
    part of the demo, albeit they don't have to be the same 12 bars jam.
    Still, we don't want to bore their eardrums... which is why we like
    having the selection of songs.  This is our audience participation
    (although we have considered what was mentioned in the last reply)
    Most people can recognize the song and then relate to the parts being
    added.  And although we could have every song on the list
    pre-sequenced, and being doing the equivalent of "lip-syncing" on the
    keyboards, I think it's pretty obviously it's all being done live.
    (We've had enough "bloops" in our performances that gets heard on
    every pass of the track to ensure that!)
    
    -TR
    

Have to add my 2 cents worth.

I was out in San Diego in June and supported a show on project management.
It wasn't very exciting, but while I was there I heard this great music
coming from somewhere at the show.  When I had a break I tracked it down. 
It was coming from a Next Computer via Bose speakers.  The person at the
show had stored the output from a CD player on a disk in the Next and was
playing it back from a file through a DAC contained in the Next.  Once the
sound is in the file you can do anything with it, edit, send, append, etc.
Simple, but very impressive.  Someday when all workstations have DACs you
will be able to send a voice message, music, sound of a simulation, just
like a mail message.

Dana

> They a pay a certain fee (monthly, yearly?) and that covers them for any 
> artist(s) to come and perform anybody's song?  

Yes. The fee is based on things like the size of the place, how many nights it
has entertainment, etc. Then here is some sort of formula they use to figure 
out how much to charge.

> Or do they have to still keep track of what songs are done much like a 
> radio station keeps a log of songs aired?
  
Nope. What ASCAP and BMI do is that they go to sample places (different ones 
all the time) and listen to the songs played, then multiply that out to 
represent the whole country. I don't believe that anything is submitted by 
the club, just the (annual? monthly? weekly?) fee.

Sounds like that is what you need. And with the frequency of your performance, 
and number of songs, I imagine the fee will be quite low. (I think I remember
hearing that an average club might pay a $100-$150 dollars a month, and that's 
for having music 4-5 nights a week. So its not a whole lot.

alan

    re .35
    You don't have to wait.  There are 'workstations' with DACs today.
    Not made by DEC of course.  ("Those things are just for games.")
    For example, every Apple Macintosh every shipped has been able to
    playback digitized sounds.  (not CD quality, but good enough for speech
    even in the early models.)

    The Amiga has a pair of cheap DACs in it; it's $550, basic.
    I tried to persuade a research group in here to use a DSP Qbus board
    instead of MIDI gear to implement audio feedback for user interfaces, 
    but they went with
    MIDI.  I still can't believe it. It's in public notes in this
    conference.
    When I interviewed with a product group, I tried to persuade to put a
    DAC on there for voice mail, but those were deaf ears.  "keep the price
    point down" they said.  The amiga is $550.
    The Dac is probably 50 cents in quantity (8 bit).
    Tom    

    I tried getting a mod to the LK201 that would put a cheap mic and a
    cheap DAC onto it.  No go.  Ironically, software standards already exist 
    to integrate sound with mail messages.  But, we don't yet have the 
    hardware (other than DECtalk or somesuch) to gain widespread acceptance, 
    as I understand it.  Near as I can tell, DEC doesn't want to add these 
    kinds of capabilities unless it can be done in an expensive fashion.
    It's kind of like the $200 mouse we send with our equipment ...
    
    The old Commodore 64 I used to have could do a lot more with sound than
    my GPX can do.  From a customer's point of view, our workstations
    should be able to do more in such respects than their cheapie machines
    can do.  It doesn't cost that much, either, to match or add such
    capabilities.  For another example, Thinking Machines includes an array
    of blinking lights with their supercomputers.  All they do is blink.
    And it's all for show.  But, it gives customers the feeling that
    they've purchased a neat machine.  And, customer perspective is what
    counts.  What do we give customers?  Well, when they fire up a machine
    they get a few beeps and a window system.  They might run a demo game
    or two.  They have to work at it to convince themselves that they just
    bought a neat machine.
    
    But, what would happen if when they booted up the machine started
    talking to them and invited them to play a game?  Or, maybe some
    pleasant tune played along with some spiffy graphics.  Now, all this
    could be defeated, but the customer would immediately wow anyone that
    stood around to watch them pull it out of the crate.  It wouldn't cost
    much.  It could have a lot of impact on customer perspective.  We're
    kidding ourselves if we think that we're "too sophisticated", "too
    technical" or "too cost conscious" to do it.  Truth be known, we're 
    "too stupid" to think it won't matter to our customers and that it's
    not worth the extra $2 per machine to boost customer perception.
    
    Steve

       
       
       
       
       Damn good point, Steve.  A little show business polish would
       really be nice.  I can see some analogy to the plastic puke
       packaging material KO complained about in '82(?).  And the
       earlier reply about integrating the speaker and mike into the
       keyboard is too good.  Someone at Digital should begin the legal
       paperwork to protect that concept.
       
       
       
       

    
    Yes, I agree, sound is too simple a thing to add for DEC to have waited
    this long.  Even my Apple II+ had a built in speaker that you could
    "cycle" and by POKEing and PEEKing the right addresses you could do
    crude but usuable sound generation.  Enough that Music Education
    Programs that made use of the speaker became very popular.
    
    I've worked on DECs platforms from the PRO 350/380 to the LYNX,
    Firefox, etc.  And have been very dissapointed that nothing from their
    PC to their high-end graphics workstations could support more than a
    "click" or a "beep" for sound!
    
-TR
    

    Protect what concept?  It is already being done.  By others.

    
    The ASCAP info in .26 is correct.  I just called and talked to someone
    there.  He said that they are currently working on licenses
    specifically for trade shows that will be available shortly.  He said
    that the trade show itself would hold the license, and that would cover
    all the exhibitors!
    
    Unfortunately, it's not out yet (Except for Worcester, they made a
    special arrangement because they've had so many requests for it
    there!?)  And he said the "Restaurant/Lounge/Club..." license wouldn't
    hold for the trade show.  In short, there's NOTHING available right
    now that would cover us, save for getting individual permission from
    each artist to use their material.
    
    Hmmm...
    
    -TR
    

    Hi, I'm the guy who started this whole DEC, LANworks, Network,
    DECworld, (it's had a few names!) MIDI Music demo. Just a few minor
    corrections to some earlier replies. First off, the concept didn't
    start on a cocktail napkin in a bar ( although that sounds good).
    It started on a placemat in a Restaurant on Cape Cod on a Sunday
    morning where I scratched the diagram for a network demo that would
    1) show all of DEC's major integration messages and use lots of
    our desktop products and software to record, share, print, display,
    and playback music files as means of communicating Digital's PC
    networking and client/server products. 2) To solve some file exchange
    problems I foresaw in my own studio recording business. I drafted
    a proposal that I sold to all levels of DEC management and received
    development funding to pursue the idea. I was provided with a number
    of DEC products to use in my studio to implement the first showing
    at PC EXPO in NYC last June. 
    
    As Tom Robert has detailed in the earlier replies, we have a whole
    sound stage of MIDI, lighting, audio, and networked computers which
    combines to give an extremely entertaining, relevant to what we're
    selling and technologically sophisticated way of getting Digital's
    presence very well known at all the major events we plan to bring
    the show to. I plan to expand the demonstation concept to incude
    imaging, postscript score printing with DEC products(already working
    in the studio), CDA applications (i.e. DECwrite using display p.s.,
    text and mayvbe a ccd camera snapshot of a show prospect to make
    an on the spot album cover as a take home souvinir). There's also
    interest in bringing the Ultrix world into the fold. We hope to
    start on this after our Networld Dallas show. 
    
    I'm also discussing with Tom how we'll consider getting interested
    Commusic fans involved. Any ideas, please feel free to contact me
    and keep the conference posted on your thoughts. See my note 3 intro
    for more on whats in the studio on the cape....
    I'm more accessable on SPCTRM::HART than in the conf. due to time
    cramps!
    
    Jack
    

    Gee, all this whiz-bang stuff at DecWorld and I just have to wonder...
    
    Do we sell *anything* with a MIDI port?
    
    Edd

    Well, you can buy any one of DEC's DECstation PCs and plug in an
    MPU and s/w for an extra $200 or so. That's what we do.
    
    Jack

    Or, you can go to Radio Shack and buy about the same thing for less.
    It's great to see MIDI and DEC get together.  Too bad it's not really
    showcasing anything that we would really sell it for.  It would be nice
    if someday DEC became a viable source for equipment for the home
    hacker or the average musician or band.  Wouldn't it be neat to see a
    VT320 at Sears' Brand Central?  ;^)
    
    Steve

>   <<< Note 2409.47 by RICKS::SHERMAN "ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326" >>>
>Wouldn't it be neat to see a VT320 at Sears' Brand Central?  ;^)
    
    .. when Roll-Royce sells parts thru Manny,Moe, and Jack's
    
    karl

    Any news in the fields of getting a MIDI-interface for a DS5000?
    Who could be working on this? There must be somebody!
    
    
    -Pasi-