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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:DYPSS1::SCHAFER
Created:Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2852
Total number of notes:33157

2335.0. "LIVE MIDI for the 90's...check it out." by LEDDEV::ROSS (shiver me timbres....) Tue May 08 1990 19:03

	For those of you interested in LIVE MIDI PERFORMANCE...

	There's a (new?) band called SIZZLE that looks pretty 'techno'
	but still sounds 'real' (you know what I mean). Definitely some
    	Midi Live problems solved here.
    
	84 voice polyphonic SGU's (M.O.L., as I count em. Mostly rack units)

	Dual DOUBLE BUFFERED sequencers (one plays while the other loads)
		They can do immediate segues.....and apparently the
		sequencers are loaded via sysex dumps from a computer-based
		40 Meg Hard Disk...not floppy. 

	Rock/Pop/Jazz formats...not simple pop stuff that sounds like TAPES.

	more....
    
    
    	I've heard this band. Oh, AND THEY USE A VOCODER to do 4 and 5 part
	vocal parts...MANHATTAN TRANSFER tunes even!

	Not bad for a DUO...you know? (Keyboardist/vocals and femme vocals)

	They're playing just south of Boston in a place called Raffaels
	(the next 3 Thursdays this month at least).

	Anyone want to meet me there? I have directions. I'm goin every thurs!
    
    	ron
    
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2335.1I thought it was a neutral recording mediumSALSA::MOELLERMan lebt wer sterben kann. (snicker)Tue May 08 1990 20:266
           <<< Note 2335.0 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
>	...not simple pop stuff that sounds like TAPES.
    
    Tell me, what do TAPES sound like ?
    
    karl
2335.2sssssssssssssssssss....WEFXEM::COTEStrom clods are forming...Tue May 08 1990 20:297
    >...what do TAPES sound like?
    
    A compressor demo?
    
    :^)
    
    Edd
2335.3GLOWS::COCCOLIis everybody happy?Tue May 08 1990 20:377
    
    
      Quiz em' about them sequencers.
    
    
    RichC
    
2335.4you know...*TAPES*LEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Wed May 09 1990 12:5622
    
    Rich: got some questions I should ask?
    
    Common' Karl/Edd....*EVERYONE* knows what TAPES sound like.
    
    :} :}
    
    I meant that many of the Duo's Ive heard use audio backing tapes
    for the instrumental parts of the tunes and 'sing along'...I can
    see this from a 'less equipment to cart around', but I think it
    lacks something for LIVE PERFORMANCE.
    
    Hey, its bad enuf you can just stand there and press START. What
    kinda work is involved in that???	
    
    (just kidding just kidding...I know! hours sequencing each tune)
    
    The guy in the band plays 'live' too. DX7II and that those racks.....
    	
     I keep wondering "what if SOMETHING breaks....what's backup?
    
     TAPES??????   harhrhhrhrhrrarrr...
2335.5make it real?KEYBDS::HASTINGSWed May 09 1990 15:3624
	Ron, how can you be so *coy*!  ;-}

	I think that the LERDS/BIM should be convened there to carefully 
analyze every technical detail, and performing nuance of this band. After 
all this is a big part of what MIDI is all about. This could provide much 
worthwhile discussion for this notesfile.

	Regarding tapes... Ron I could bring up the "religious" argument that
we have been having off line on this but I won't. (At least not today.) Instead
I have a question. Given the vast possibilities of the music technology today,
and to come, how do we avoid having the music experience becoming overrun
by the technology to the point the composition and performance are products
of the technology, and not the artist?
	How can a performer/composer keep himself in the music and avoid the
mechanical, prerecorded, canned, stale sounds that can easily happen when
the technology is relied on to heavily? I'm not just talking about "humanizing"
drum tracks, or avoiding quantization here. Anyone that has ever seen a good 
band play live knows that the experience is far superior to merely listening to
a record of that band. What is is that can make a live performance so special?
How can it be kept in the performance when one uses sequencers/tapes or 
whatever? How can we avoid becoming a techno-version of a disk jockey?

	Mark
2335.6is it live, or is it MIDI ?SALSA::MOELLERMan lebt wer sterben kann. (snicker)Wed May 09 1990 17:2725
                     <<< Note 2335.5 by KEYBDS::HASTINGS >>>
>What is is that can make a live performance so special?
>How can it be kept in the performance when one uses sequencers/tapes or 
>whatever? How can we avoid becoming a techno-version of a disk jockey?
    
    GOOD questions.  As a solo musician, my issues are a bit different from
    a MIDI band.. but not a lot.  My MIDI studio setup is absolutely NOT 
    conducive to playing live.  Regarding presequenced vs. tape backup
    tracks, sorry, I see NO difference except that there's more opportunity
    for the sequenced tracks to go awry.
    
    When I think about playing out, first I know I'll be doing quite a bit
    of solo (Kurzweil) piano pieces.  I might use the KX88's two-channel
    xmit capability to sneak in some background strings or something.  Over
    and above that, the complexity rises exponentially.  Few of my
    sequenced pieces have ONE part that plays thru the entire piece - that
    part of course being the one that I play live with the sequence.  Music
    minus one, anyone ?  It's not too cool sitting on your thumb waiting
    for the place to play hot horn riff again - not very dynamic VIEWING.
    
    And I thing VIEWING is the issue with MIDI/tape bands.  The audience is
    conditioned to watching the interplay and sweat among the performers,
    which may be difficult to come by in a MIDI/tape band.
    
    karl
2335.7MIZZOU::SHERMANECADSR::SHERMAN 235-8176, 223-3326Wed May 09 1990 18:396
    Audiences want to see band members jump around and sing.  If they
    wanted to hear good music, they'd listen to their stereos.  People
    jumping around and making noise is entertaining.  Programming is not.
    That's why I get such a kick out of going to staff meetings ... ;^
    
    Steve
2335.8Lots of great musicians out thereCSC32::MOLLERHit by a truck, License # RDB31AWed May 09 1990 18:5633
	Geez. This stuff has been happening for the last few years. I've
	been doing it for at least 1 1/2 years with excellent results.
	With dual sequencers, you don't have much of any deley between songs
	and you can pick pretty much anything that you have sequenced,
	in pretty much any order. If I get a failure of one sequencer, I
	use the other (now, a few delays between groups of songs), If my 
	disk unit fails, then I can load from tape (while the other sequencer
	is playing - yes cassettes are cheap insurance). 

	There are some excellent MIDI bands (1 or more people) out there.
	You might find that just going out and listening to a few might
	give you some insights as to how these become more humanized by
	thier members. Each band has solved for thier needs in thier own
	way & all sound different. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's
	great not having to worry about more than one other person (besides
	most of my sequences can be done as a single, and are set up so 
	that either of us can sing if need be - just in case of colds and
	sore throats). I like my MIDI duo. There are at least 10 others
	here in Colorado Springs (a fairly small town when compared to
	Boston, New York, L.A. or Chicago) that are exceptional and are
	constantly working. I've had only 1 weekend open since the middle
	of October 1989, and usually work 2 to 4 nights a week. I also
	play only songs that I happen to like. So where is the trade off?
	If the band isn't having a good time, it can be sterile. I always
	have a good time. I quantize what I want & I trade sequeneces, so I
	end up playing with other musicians. All I care about it the sound
	and the entertainment/performance value. With todays gear and a lot
	of time, you can do just about anything that you want.

	As I say, look around you. There are lots of people who can pull
	this stuff off & make it sound great.

		Jens_who_is_working_wed_thru_sat_this_week_with_his_duo.
2335.9Who's in chargeKOBAL::DICKSONWed May 09 1990 20:330
2335.10GLOWS::COCCOLIis everybody happy?Wed May 09 1990 21:4612
    
    RE .4
    
      It's just that I had never heard the term " double buffered
    sequencer" before and thought I might have missed out on a new device.
    
      I've got a question you could ask them.
    Do they get paid as much as a non-midi, four piece band?.  8^/][
    
    
    RichC
    
2335.11Well, Live, but not exactly?LEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Mon May 14 1990 14:3522
    
    Pay? Good question.....no one ever talks about it, it seems...
    
    "Double Buffered" is standard computer-eze term for "one memory
    sending/rcving while another is 'loading'". From what I could
    tell, thats what was going on.
    
    NOW, after hearing them again I was a little more critical of the
    sound. Some tunes sounding more like 'vocals singing with taped
    background'.....even tho it wasnt.
    
    ANYONE notice this in their own music? Is it MIXING only?
    
    Something tells me its also related to SAMPLERS and orchestration,
    actually...
    
    ??????
    ron
    
    
    
    
2335.12SALSA::MOELLERMon May 14 1990 17:3015
>          <<< Note 2335.11 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
    >                       -< Well, Live, but not exactly? >-

    
>    NOW, after hearing them again I was a little more critical of the
>    sound. Some tunes sounding more like 'vocals singing with taped
>    background'.....even tho it wasnt.
>    ANYONE notice this in their own music? Is it MIXING only?
    
    Perhaps you're not used to professional-sounding mixes from live bands.
    Maybe 'live' to you equals 'sloppy'.
    
    Or.. close your eyes.
    
    karl
2335.13MILKWY::JANZENTom 228-5421 FXO/28Mon May 14 1990 18:198
>                     <<< Note 2335.12 by SALSA::MOELLER >>>>
>
>    Maybe 'live' to you equals 'sloppy'.
>
        karl
    
    I thought that's what "humanization" was all about ;-)
    Tom
2335.14It's only good if it's funCSC32::MOLLERHit by a truck, License # RDB31AMon May 14 1990 22:4224
>>          <<< Note 2335.13 by MILKWY::JANZEN "Tom 228-5421 FXO/28" >>>
>>
>> >                     <<< Note 2335.12 by SALSA::MOELLER >>>>
>> >
>> >    Maybe 'live' to you equals 'sloppy'.
>> >
>>        karl
>>    
>>    I thought that's what "humanization" was all about ;-)
>>    Tom

	I make plenty of mistakes for an entire band (can't get much more
	humanized than that, now can you??), and so does my keyboard player.
	We sound quite 'live' in spite of the technology (Last thursday my
	keyboard player powered down his SHS-10, then back up, while it
	was using my gear. It reselected a number of patches for me, as
	well as setting my REX-50 for a cavern reverb with massive 
	distortion - It's really a guitar effect, however, I use it for 
	vocals. It reminds me of the days when other band members broke into
	the wrong parts or into the wrong key, or even the wrong song).

	By the way, my sequencer has never gotten drunk either.....

								Jens
2335.15Samplers *have* there own sound, IMO.LEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Tue May 15 1990 13:5111
    
    Karl...come on. I cant tell if you're sittin on a cactus
    or not... ;)  such an attitude. You know where Im at musically.
    
    Maybe we're talkin some ineffable thing here (means words dont work
    to describe it)...
    
    or, maybe Im just not describing it well. Nevermind.
    
    ron
    
2335.16;^)MIZZOU::SHERMANECADSR::SHERMAN 235-8176, 223-3326Tue May 15 1990 14:2611
    Which reminds me ... seems to me that synths nowadays are getting cold
    and hard.  Not like older, pre-wall bug synths.  These were warm and
    fuzzy.  Warm because of the power transformer inside.  Fuzzy because of
    the buzz of the transformer and/or the slight 60 Hz discharge you 
    would get when you ran your hand along the (supposedly) grounded metal
    case.  This and MIDI sequencing make today's music cold and calculated.
    Not like the good ol' days when making a goof was "artistic" instead of
    adding "humanism".  Screwing up your patches was "far out" and "groovy"
    instead of "ineffable".  Sigh ...
    
    Steve
2335.17starting to sound like Guitar notesSWAV1::STEWARTon the horns of an enemaTue May 15 1990 14:3912
>    Which reminds me ... seems to me that synths nowadays are getting cold
>    and hard.  Not like older, pre-wall bug synths.  These were warm and
>    fuzzy.  Warm because of the power transformer inside.  Fuzzy because of
>    the buzz of the transformer and/or the slight 60 Hz discharge you 
>    would get when you ran your hand along the (supposedly) grounded metal
>    case.  This and MIDI sequencing make today's music cold and calculated.
>    Not like the good ol' days when making a goof was "artistic" instead of
>    adding "humanism".  Screwing up your patches was "far out" and "groovy"
>    instead of "ineffable".  Sigh ...
    
                           Don't forget tubed amps!

2335.18Using Dual Sequencers - Loading while PlayingCSC32::MOLLERHit by a truck, License # RDB31AFri May 18 1990 17:15137
        If you are curious as to how I set up my 2 sequencers (MMT-8's)
        to allow me to be loading one while playing the other, this
        is what I did and why.
 
        The logic:
 
                        +-----------------+
                        | MIDI Disk Drive |
                        +-------+---------+
                                | MIDI
                                | Out
                                o
               +--------------o/  o----+
               | MIDI          Sw1     | MIDI
               V In                    V In
        +------+--------+       +------+--------+         +------------+
        | Sequencer # 1 |       | Sequencer # 2 |         | Start/Stop |
        |               +<==+   |               +<====+   | Footswitch |
        +------+--------+   |   +------+--------+     |   +------+-----+
               | MIDI       |          | MIDI         |          |
        (LED1) | Out        |   (LED2) | Out          |          |
               |            |          |         Sw1  |          |
               |            +==========|========o  /o=+          |
               |                       |          o              |
               |                Sw1    |          |              |
               +---------------o  /o---+          +==============+
                                 o
                                 | MIDI          To       To
                                 V In           LED1     LED2
                        +--------+---------+      |  Sw1  |
                        |    MIDI SGU's    |      +-o  /o-+
                        +------------------+          o
                                                      |
                                                     LED
                                                    Power
 
        In the diagram shown, Sequencer # 1 is ready to accept a MIDI
        SYSEX dump, while Sequencer # 2 is ready to drive the MIDI SGU's
        (Sound Generation Units).
 
        You'll notice that there is only 1 switch shown. This is because you
        need to all 4 switches in a synchronized fashion, otherwise you won't
        be sure what state that you are in. Just to add to the confusion,
        the switches that are swapping the MIDI signals need to be DPDT
        (double pole/double throw) switches, so you really need the equivalent
        of 6 switches. The LED (Light Emitting Diode) is needed to tell you
        which sequencer is being loaded, and which is being played.
 
        The way that I implemented this was by purchasing a 4PDT 12 volt relay
        (Radio Shack sells them) and use this to switch the MIDI signals.
        The one that I used has some silver in the contacts, and is sealed
        (we really don't want poor connections, as the current flow is fairly
        low). Then I used a good quality DPDT mini-toggle switch (also from RS)
        for the footswitch and LED indicator. The circuit that drives the
        LEDs also drives the Relay.  I used dual colored LEDs (RED or GREEN
        depending how you connected them) and installed one under the front
        of each sequencer. When the LED is GREEN, then that's the PLAYBACK
        sequencer, When it's RED, that's the LOADING sequencer. I drive
        the whole thing from a 12 volt WALL bug/transformer. I added a DIODE
        and 2000uf Cap to the circuit that drives the Relay, so that I had
        roughly 1 second of reserve power (to keep the relay latched) in case
        of a momentary power fluctuation (I get those occasionally while
        playing at clubs).
 
                                                      1.5k
                Relay Keeper circuit:   +------------/\/\/--> LED1
                (and LED driver)        |
                Using Toggle switch     |   Sw1       1.5k
                                        +--o  /o--+--/\/\/--> LED2
                                             o    |
                        1N4001               |    |
                + o------->|----+------------+    |
                                | +               +--> One side of
        From Wall Bug          === 2000uf              Relay Coil
                                |
                - o-------------+-------> Other side of Relay Coil
 
        All in all, my parts list is:
 
        Quantity        Description             Approx Price (US Dollars)
        --------        --------------------    -------------------------
           1            4PDT - 12 V relay       $5.50
 
           1            DPDT - Mini Toggle      $3.50
                        Switch
 
           6            Male 5 connector        $1.00 each - $6.00
                        DIN plus (MIDI
                        connectors)
 
           2            Dual Color LEDs         $1.00 - package of 2
                        (RED/GREEN)
 
           1            1N4001 Diode            $1.00 - package of 4
 
           1            2000uf 35volt           $2.00
                        Capacitor
 
           2            1/4 inch phone          $2.50 - package of 2
                        plugs (metal covers)
                        <for footswitch>
 
           1            1/4 phone jack          $1.50 - package of 2
                        <for footswitch>
 
           1            12 volt wall bug        $6.00
 
           1            20 foot spool of        $3.00
                        2 conductor shielded
                        wire <for MIDI>
 
           1            20 foot spool of        $2.50
                        zip cord (2 conductor)
 
           1            Wall bug jacks          $1.00 - package of 2
 
           2            1.5 k 1/2 watt          $.50  - package of 2
                        resistors (for LEDs)
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        Total Cost:                     Approx $ 36.00
 
 
        The concept should work with any sequencers that are stand alone
        boxes. They both have to be the same model (otherwise the SYSEX
        messages won't match).
 
        We could have used a MIDI Merger for the output of the sequencers,
        however, that adds about $80.00 to $100.00 more to the cost. This
        solution is fairly cheap & reliable. All of the parts are mounted
        in my rack, and the single toggle switch is up near the sequencers
        (actually, between them).
 
        And as a last comment, this works quite well for me. If anyone
        wants more info, feel free to contact me directly.
 
 
                                                        Jens
2335.19Must think of a name (any ideas?)BAHTAT::KENTpeekayMon May 21 1990 07:1611
    
    
    Firsr live (paid) Gig in 12 years is next Friday night.
    
    Me on Strat
    Roland on the W30
    And my nephew on Sax
    
    	Will report back.
    
    						Paul.
2335.20speaking of sax players...HUNEY::MACHINMon May 21 1990 08:3211
    
    Saw Gong last friday. The sax player (the one and only Bloomdido 
    Glad de Brass) used a Yamaha WX connected to -- I think -- a TX16
    or similar. He did a solo spot where he set up sequences and played
    over the top of them, switching patches as appropriate. The sequencer
    was -- wait for it -- an MMT-8!
    
    Excellent concert, by the way. Except for the electronic drumkit,
    whose sounds bcame a little monotonous toward the end of the evening.
    
    Richard.
2335.21WHATTTTTGLOWS::COCCOLIit's mootMon May 21 1990 23:3017
      
    
      RE .20
    
       Got a problem with the MMT8, bud?.  8^]
    
       I load mine up at the house, get to a gig, plug it in, and get
    45 minutes of fairly complicated music out of it without a hitch.
      
       Why do people have to goof on other people's equipment just because
    it isn't in the same price range as the latest Stealth bomber?.
    
                                        IT SERVES.
    
    
    RichC
    
2335.22er..no problem hereHUNEY::MACHINTue May 22 1990 08:4914
    re .21
    
    Not sure where I 'goofed' your sequencer. I'm an owner and staunch
    defender of the things in this conference, in fact.
    
    All I intended to say was that said B. Bad de Grass used one in an
    innovative way, creating short sequences 'live' and playing over the
    top of them. He had a briefcase open on a table, with teh sgu poking
    out and the sequencer stuck on top -- and it went without a hitch.
    
    Take that, sir.
    
    Richard.
    
2335.23why not just play direct from hard disk?LEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Tue May 22 1990 19:3925
    
    Well, bottom line is, you dont get to load a sequencer
    with a nights worth of (club) material. You dont get to load
    a set worth of most common tunes that include the drum trax.
    
    And assuming you want the 'ability' to deviate from a certain
    song order, you CANT load multiple (2 or 3 max anyway?) songs
    in one fell swoop...
    
    So, why not accept that you have to, and want to, load each
    song separately.
    
    When you finally get there, then you go "gee, 10 seconds of sysex
    to get the next song in..." which, to some folks is unacceptable
    silence, cause you lose the folks on the dance floor...
    
    So then you need a solution to this 10 seconds. Comedy? Card tricks?
    One sequencer loading while another plays?
    
    Your choice. I made mine.
    
    Next time: What to load from? Tapes? Floppy?
    
    ron
    
2335.24GLOWS::COCCOLIit's mootTue May 22 1990 21:5118
    
    
      RE. .22
    
      My apologies. I took the "wait for it....an MMT8" as a derogatory
    remark. Perhaps a self-inflicted full frontal lobotomy is in order
    for myself.
    
      RE .23 
    
      Well, my bottom line is I can load and have *instant* access to
    10 songs, in any order, with drum tracks. I do leave out pb and
    aftertouch, which eat memory. These are added live anyway.  
    We do originals and play showcases. Forty five minutes *is* a gig.
    
                                     
    RichC
    
2335.25your mileage can vary in this gameLEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Wed May 23 1990 14:3021
    
    Hey, whatever works. I bet some folks leave out velocity to
    get lotsa tunes in the sequencer!
    
    I suppose its a matter of song complexity, orchestration,
    and what parts you play live.
    
    What's the 'note' capacity of the MMT8? Sounds like a good machine
    in the coupla hundred bucks range.
    
    QX5 holds 15,000 'notes'(well, ya gotta use SOMETHING as a metric)
    (20,000 without velocity. But why would they even mention THAT?)
    
    Seems that most tunes we do use about 1/2 of the memory...some less.
    Aftertouch, CCn's used on live parts only (some exceptions). Its
    that darn drummer that hogs mosta the machine... 
    
    How many could I fit into an MMT8?
    
    ron
    
2335.26that don't sound rightNORGE::CHADWed May 23 1990 14:474
I thought velocity was part of a midi note event?????  Velocity shouldn't
change how many events a sequencer can store, or?????

Chad
2335.27internal representation differentLEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Wed May 23 1990 15:2013
    
    The machine can filter lotsa things on RECORD, like velocity.
    
    I suppose it 'knows' that track contains no velocity
    info and on playback inserts something, probably 127?
    
    Dont know! I Never use THAT filter....gad.
    
    Tho I suppose for a monster drummer imitation (Animal!)
    it might be just right.
    
    rr
    
2335.28Dark Age Sequencer LoreAQUA::ROSTI'll do anything for moneyWed May 23 1990 16:2217
    Some sequencers do strange things when storing data.  Ron is correct,
    some allow you to filter velocity, as well as the usual
    CC/sysex/aftertouch filtering.   My old MSQ-100 had such a feature, and
    since I had no velocity controller at the time, I kept the velocity
    filter on.  I think it sent out 63 on playback as a default velocity,
    like most non-velocity controllers do. 
    
    I used a Casio sequencer where step storage capacity was twice as large
    as real-time storage capacity.  My guess is that since you enter a note
    (time) value when step sequencing, the box could store the note-on and
    note-off times together somehow; in real-time entry it had to keep
    checking to see when you let go of the key, so had to store them as
    separate data items.  In any event, the incompatible storage meant you
    couldn't step edit real-time emtered tracks or do real-time overdubs on
    step-entered tracks.
    
    Waitaminnit, I bought that box from Ron...8^)  8^)  8^)
2335.2910000 notes plus associated garbage, I thoughtHUNEY::MACHINWed May 23 1990 16:234
    
    I believe the MMT8 is 10000 events.
    
    Richard.
2335.30MIZZOU::SHERMANECADSR::SHERMAN 235-8176, 223-3326Wed May 23 1990 16:545
    As I recall, if you don't have velocity info, the default is 64.  So,
    even with "no" velocity, you may be seeing a default value come up.
    The default value doesn't require extra storage.
    
    Steve
2335.31Parallel Processing DREGS::BLICKSTEINThis is your brain on UnixWed May 23 1990 17:2014
    I often get around the loading problem by "parallel processing".
    
    For example, if I was doing a gig like Ron where there is basically
    a keyboard player and a singer, I'd pick out a few songs that either
    don't need sequencing, or have something like a piano introduction
    without sequencing and just load while I'm playing.
    
    The thing that always slows me down isn't loading, it's finding the
    chart for the song we're about to do.  I have an awful memory.  And
    while I can usually find the chords by "ear", without the chart,
    I would have no way of knowing where the bridge came, or stuff
    like that.
    
    	db
2335.32WEFXEM::COTEWhat if someone sees us? Awwwwkk!Wed May 23 1990 17:298
    Even in my last band, where no sequencing was involved, just the
    patch changes could take up more time than we were comfortable with.
    The 6 or 8 seconds for the Mirage to load is an eternity...
    
    I ended up just planning ahead, setting up SGU's as soon as possible
    and keeping that channel down on my sub-mix until it was needed....
    
    Edd
2335.33Solution: use the sequencerDREGS::BLICKSTEINThis is your brain on UnixWed May 23 1990 19:3214
    re: .32
    
    Edd,
    
    I use the sequencer even on tunes that aren't sequenced to solve
    the patch change problem.
    
    What you do is you create a "sequence" with nothing other than the
    patch changes.  On my SQ-80, I just hit the button that gives me
    the menu of songs; then I hit the button underneath the song I'm
    going to play, and the SQ-80 does ALL my configuration-type stuff
    for me.
    
    	db
2335.34Good StuffCSC32::MOLLERHit by a truck, License # RDB31AWed May 23 1990 21:1518
	The MMT-8 holds 25000 events. I find that depending on how I 
	structure a song, I can always get at least 3 songs on in any
	particular load. Since I have 2 MMT-8s & some ability to swap
	back & forth so I can Load while I'm playing, I have little
	in the way of delays. It usually takes longer to find the desired
	patch on the ESQ-1 for the keyboard player to play than to bring
	up the next song.

	I have a lot of velocity specific information (drums and cymbols
	really need this to keep from sounding sterile). I load all parts
	that are not played by other members of my Duo. I also configure
	a REX-50 for vocal processing.

	Other than running out of MIDI channels (16 isn't enough when you
	start looking at all of the possiblities - like Volume Mixes for
	the PA, Effects Processors, Lighting, etc.), the set up is great.

							Jens
2335.35Only the Lonely...BAHTAT::KENTpeekayThu May 24 1990 07:0515
    
    
    W30 Takes about 15-20 seconds to load a song, and the songs have the
    patch changes etc. embedded. This is going to be a laid back gig anyway
    (corner of a Restaurant, changing customers, clanking crockery etcc..)
    Is anybody going to notice the 20 seconds? I'll be downing some
    Boddingtons Bitter during the song changes anyway, It's the only way I
    can keep the Knopfler impersonation going. I still think it would sound
    better in stereo, but here goes.....
    
    I wonder If I was as nervous as this the first time.  
    Did I have nerves when I was 13 ?
    Will I ever get used to this Decstation keyboard ?
    
    				Paul.
2335.36That's easily solvableDREGS::BLICKSTEINThis is your brain on UnixThu May 24 1990 13:376
    > It usually takes longer to find the desired patch on the ESQ-1 for the
    > keyboard player to play than to bring up the next song.
    
    Why don't you have the sequencer do that for him?
    
    	db
2335.37Can you say 'LOCK UP ALL THE MIDI SGU's?'CSC32::MOLLERHit by a truck, License # RDB31AThu May 24 1990 19:1324
>>    <<< Note 2335.36 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "This is your brain on Unix" >>>
>>                          -< That's easily solvable >-
>>
>>    > It usually takes longer to find the desired patch on the ESQ-1 for the
>>    > keyboard player to play than to bring up the next song.
>>    
>>    Why don't you have the sequencer do that for him?
>>    
>>    	db

	That all depends on how many controllers you allow. I Use 4 seperate
	control sources (MMT-8's, TR-505, ESQ-1 and SHS-10) using an MX-8
	and 2 additional merge boxes. I run into all sorts of obsure problems
	when I send and recieve to/form the same device. I use one of the
	merge boxes on the ESQ-1 to provide a 'MERGED THRU' function. So
	It would undoubtably screw up things very quickly. MIDI can get very
	complex to manage when you start trying to share equipment amongst
	controllers. At the moment, my configuration does not allow any
	controller to modify another controller. In this way, I don't have
	to worry about multiple MIDI clocks (which would affect the tempo)
	or surprize me with bogus patch changes. This 'network' has taken
	me nearly a year to get right & it's pretty reliable at the moment.

								Jens
2335.38grumble..quotron..mumbleGLOWS::COCCOLIit's mootThu May 24 1990 23:2622
    
    
      I've been in a seminar last couple of days.
    
      Jens..You only get about three songs out of the MMT8?. You must
    be using more pitchbend than Jan Hamer!. Or doubling everything.
      I gave up sequencing anything played on my midiguitar due to the
    enormous quantity of pitchbend events per string-bend (not to be
    believed). A 1 minute solo would eat 1/3rd of the MMT8's memory!.
    Why sequence a solo anyway?.
      At this time I don't have one of those neat little devices that
    can thin the stream. The effect might not be desirable.
      When playing as just a keyboard player with other "live" (some
    more than others) musicians, I use the sequencer only for patch
    changes. Probably easier to set up than one of those "navi-system-izer"
    thingies.
    
    
    
    RichC
         
    
2335.39Looking for grouping and contentCSC32::MOLLERHit by a truck, License # RDB31AFri May 25 1990 00:0831
>>               <<< Note 2335.38 by GLOWS::COCCOLI "it's moot" >>>
>>      Jens..You only get about three songs out of the MMT8?. 
	
	Actually, I often get 6 songs on the MMT-8, but as a force of
	habit, I now try only for 3 or 4 songs that I'm apt (but not
	neccesarrily going) to play together. In other words, I've
	tried to group things. Now with 2 sequencers, this is working
	even better, because I have access to 6 to 8 songs at any moment,
	and often play many of them as needed. Sometimes you need to throw
	in a specific request, but you want to play the other songs that
	you have loaded, so I use the alternate sequencer to load the
	request & not have to keep re-loading the same sequences over &
	over again. In general, its just more flexable that way & I seem 
	to spend less time loading SYSEX from the disks. I often need
	bulk SYSEX capabilities to re-load other devices, so I really
	need the facility that the seperate disk provides.

	The MC-500 allows flexibility along these lines also, but I really 
	like the option of a backup sequencer in case of failure. Besides, 
	you can pick up an MMT-8 used for around $200.00, so it's reasonably
	cheaper than a lot of other alternatives. Besides the cost, I really
	want to start working out sequences on a PC & moving them to a 
	delivery system. By this summer, I should be doing that & then the
	features of the HW sequencer become less significant. I'd rather spend
	the money on a PC based solution & keep the 'live' delivery equipment
	as simple as possible. As long as you have things working for you,
	then keep working with them. I'm always interested to see what my
	competition is using; there are a lot of creative musicians out
	there. This stuff works for me.

								Jens
2335.40Performance NightmareAQUA::ROSTI'll do anything for moneyFri May 25 1990 18:00106
    Interesting example of tapes vs. sequences quandary from the USENET:
    
    
    
    
From: cscudds@cs.strath.ac.uk (Christopher D Scudds IE87)
Subject: Performance Nightmares ( long )
Date: 24 May 90 14:08:36 GMT
 
Yo r.m.s readers . Just thought I'd offload one of the most harrowing
experiences of my musical career on y'all ( I'm fairly cotton-pickin' up on this
american lingo too! )
 
Basically , a show that I was playing for decided that it would be a good idea
if , in order to cut costs of paying for 6 - 8 pro musicians playing for
four nights in the band , they'd pay me to do tapes of their parts , and 
also have me and a drummer play along to them .
 
Now , I , as all of you will too , was not over keen on this idea , but
eventually I buckled under financial temptation ( every man has his price ) ,
and assurances that the sound people were pro's .
 
I met up with the sound guys , and sure enough , they were going to remaster
my stuff prepared on the four track to a B77 ( Revox , reel to reel ) so that
reliability would be high . We agreed , since the band PA was mono , that
we'd use one track for a click to the bands 'phones , and the other for the
music , to be fed through the PA . All seemed hunky dory - I went to work .
 
Tapes were completed in about 80 hours , and remastered to the B77 . We 
soundchecked two nights before the show opened - they sounded GREAT - the
illusion of a big band ( strings / brass / woodwind / percussion ) was 
definitely there . Clicks worked perfectly with the drummer , mix and
acoustics were all A1 . Good stuff !
 
First three nights went well , very well in fact , big crowds , clapping
along to the closing numbers , everything . Youve guessed it though - the
fourth night...
 
The fourth night , the soundman was 'unavailable' , so he had a standin , who'd
apparently been at all three performances so knew his stuff , take his place . 
Fine I thought . 
 
Curtains went down , I started the 'atmospheric' stuff , lots of detuned bells ,
growls , strings-tuning-up type noises . The audience ( a full house ) were
hushed - everything was poised for the big opening - I waited on the 4 clicks
in the cans . 
 
And waited . 
 
And waited . 
 
Oh SH*T ! OH bl**dy SH*T ! 
 
You know , I had to PLAY that entire first half on my unprepared K1 / D50 , 
bass , sound effects ( essential for cues ) strings , brass everything ! 
 
NIGHTMARE ! 
 
At half time , I ran , by this time the bow tie had been cast aside , sweating 
like god-knows-what to the desk at the back of the hall . He was there , the
soundman was there - and he was lucky that a couple of lighting chaps
were around too - cos I had to be restrained from disfiguring this moron.
What was the problem ? Why no tapes ? He said he'd started them , and heard
music - assumed everything was OK . THAT WAS ME PLAYING YOU DI**HEAD . Oh ,
was it , sounded fine to me he replies .
 
I checked out the tape deck , and , well blow me down , no leads coming out
of it - this pr*ck hadnt tested it or anything . I pugged it all into
the desk , checked it out quietly over the PA ( the audience were still
in - bit of a giveaway if they hear tape winding noises ) , and instructed him
on what to do . He nodded , he knew .
 
Second half . Same ( ish ) opening , a big build up , waiting for the
clicks . This time I got them , but so unbelievably quiet that when I pulled
the cans off , there was 4Kw of CLICK TRACK coming through the PA . 
 
CLICK click click click CLICK click click click .
 
AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!
 
 
Soon somebody was intelligent enough to turn it down - but obviously they'd
been mucking about with the channels after I left , and had screwed it up .
 
So it was back to the grindstone , playing everything from memory , thinking
four songs ahead trying to WRITE performance patches in between cues ( cues 
also from memory ) .  Another nightmare .
 
Needless to say , I couldnt have done too bad a job , because all the feedback
after the show had finished was positive - good music they said - if only
you'd heard the real thing I said . 
 
Why didn't I sequence it , you ask - well basically I had to borrow CuBase to 
write it on , cos it was WELL complicated , but couldnt have it for the show .
 
I'm going to sequence the whole thing next time though - drums , FX , 
the lot , no matter what package I have to use - they can buy me one actually!
 
So the moral is - NEVER USE BACKING TAPES , NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE 
 
( well , unless its just irresistable... )
 
		Yours Incelery		-----------------------------
					| "I'd rather Jack ,	    |
			Chris . 	| 	than Famous Grouse" |
					-----------------------------			    
2335.41take it to the limitTOOK::SUDAMALiving is easy with eyes closed...Fri May 25 1990 19:0621
    <<< Note 2335.39 by CSC32::MOLLER "Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A" >>>
                     -< Looking for grouping and content >-

>>               <<< Note 2335.38 by GLOWS::COCCOLI "it's moot" >>>
>>      Jens..You only get about three songs out of the MMT8?. 
    
    I don't see what's so surprising about this. Before I upgraded to an
    MC-500 I often wasn't able to get even *one* song into the MMT-8. If
    you have a complex sequence with lots of parts and voices, and can't
    take full advantage of the parts-building capabilities of the MMT-8
    because the structure of the song doesn't allow it, you can run out of
    memory quite often. But then, I'm talking about sequences with
    something like 12 channels plus drums, and maybe up to 30-40 voices
    active at any time. For simple bass, drums and piano type stuff the
    MMT-8 does great.
    
    I'm not knocking the MMT-8, but if I was looking for a sequencer myself
    I'd want to know what limitations the memory size was going to place on
    what I could do with it.
    
    - Ram
2335.42Bela Fleck and MIDI banjoKOBAL::DICKSONTue May 29 1990 14:4123
    I hope some of you watched the "Lonesome Pine Special" this last
    weekend.  Bela Fleck was on playing banjo with a Mac (running
    Performer) and an Akai sampler.
    
    He had sampled various banjo noises made by clicking or hitting the
    instrument in various places, and also sampled the lowest string.  Then
    he arranged a piece where he played the banjo live while the Akai
    provided the back-up.  The sampled banjo note, transposed down four
    octaves, provided the bass, and the various other noises provided a
    rhythm part.  Pretty effective.
    
    Funny, although not remarkable, was him playing "Dueling Banjos"
    against the Mac.  The interesting part was when the Mac was playing
    first and he was supposed to imitate it - he had the Mac doing licks
    that are easy on a Mac but not usually done by real musicians.  These
    especially involved transpositions in odd places.  There was a part
    toward the end where the Mac had a solo, during which Fleck sat on a
    chair and read a newspaper.
    
    In an interview segment he said he had a midied banjo and was working
    on using his banjo to drive synthesizers for other sounds.  Not working
    real well yet (probably the usual tracking problems and false notes)
    but he said that was the direction he wanted to go.
2335.43Gigup !BAHTAT::KENTpeekayWed May 30 1990 14:4213
    
    
    Well we did the gig, had no problems with the technology, we've been
    booked for regular Fridays from now on. I'me an earning musician again!
    
    Some people even layed down their knifes and forks and apllauded.
    
    Perhaps I could start justifying the cost of the gear now.
    
    No pehaps not.
    
    
						Paul.
2335.44press return for next....LEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Fri Jun 01 1990 19:0716
    
    Seems like this band SIZZLE is booked there wednesday
    and thursday nights thru the summer...
    
    Maybe they'll play closer out here sometime soon....
    
    The guy *is* using 2 sequencers and a computer with a
    hard disk...he's got software that allows loading of
    one tune into one sequencer while they play the 'current'
    tune from the other sequencer....
    
    not a bad solution.  I'm learning alot from this band at
    this gig........
    
    ron
    
2335.45here is a guessNORGE::CHADFri Jun 01 1990 19:156
If you have a software sequencer, you can always set up a ram disk on your 
computer as well as use a hd. Load the RAM disk with the set of songs you are
going to play.  I bet it doesn't take more than a second to get a tune from a 
RAM disk.

Chad
2335.46fess up SALSA::MOELLERFri Jun 01 1990 19:4910
          <<< Note 2335.44 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
>    Seems like this band SIZZLE is booked there wednesday
>    and thursday nights thru the summer...
>    not a bad solution.  I'm learning alot from this band at
>    this gig........
    
    All right, ron - enough coyness.. YOU'RE in SIZZLE, right ?  YOU'RE the
    guy with "2 sequencers", right ?
    
    karl
2335.47who knows?LEDDEV::ROSSshiver me timbres....Wed Jun 06 1990 18:0419
    
    Gee, Karl, that sounds like you're insinuating that I
    have other motives than just sharing information with my
    fellow midiots around live performance problems and solutions.
    
    Come on, I'd also share info on the other duo's I've heard
    in the past months while doing competative analysis....if
    only I knew their current status as well as this groups'.
    
    You're still sore about the 'tapes' comment....
    
    admit it.
    
    (of course Im smiling...relax)
    
    rr
    
    
    
2335.48SALSA::MOELLERWed Jun 06 1990 20:288
          <<< Note 2335.47 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
>    You're still sore about the 'tapes' comment...    admit it.
    
    What 'tapes' comment ?  
    
    I'm not sore.. I'm #)*&ing HOT !
    
    karl, living for nighttime swimming..
2335.49midi live works..GLOWS::COCCOLIwhere's Pokey?Wed Aug 08 1990 02:2816
    
    
      Last Sunday my midi duo actually got a full 30 minutes airplay
    on a local college station (WSIA), along with 4 other bands from
    the Staten Island Rock Coalition!.
      The benefit concert for Snug Harbor Cultural Center was, unbeknownst(?)
    to me, taped by some DJ from WSIA. Right after the set we were asked
    to sign a waiver so the music could be broadcast.
       This was our first actual gig with the SIRC, and the other members
    had a certain amount of caution as how a duo w/midi would come across
    to the audience in a mixed situation with other, full membered bands.
       At the end of our show, the praise from the other bands, not
    to mention the four new gigs that were booked in the following half
    hour,seemed well worth the seemingly endless hours spent hunched
    over the sequencers(2 mmt8's).    
    
2335.50How to provide "time" when using a sequencer w. a full bandDREGS::BLICKSTEINI'll have 2 all-u-can-eat plattersWed Feb 20 1991 14:0561
    Maybe I've mentioned this before but I'm still sorta undecided about
    this stuff.
    
    First let me start by saying this question is in the context of playing
    with a FULL band (drums, bass, guitar, keys, etc.) but using a
    sequencer to fill things in things like strings, horns, extra
    percussion and those sorta T-40 things that have to be done with
    a sequencer.
    
    The problem I am trying to address does not occur with a typical
    "MIDI band".
    
    The question is, "How does the band get time".  That is, how do you
    sync up with the sequencer?
    
    It's especially hard if the sequencer is NOT playing drums, or if
    it only comes in at, like, the 2nd verse.
    
    The conventional method is to provide some sort of click to the
    drummer thru headphones.  
    
    I've encountered problems trying to do this
    
    o	I have to sequence the click.  This takes up a track in my
        sequencer and I only have 8 (going to 24 soon but...)
    
    o   You have to somehow isolate the click from the rest of the
    	mix (separate outs for example) and somehow get from that
    	line output to a headphone.
    
    o   You have to figure out what sorta of audio the drummer can hear
    	above the band (beeps?  Rim shots?  Side-sticks? etc.)
    
    o	There are points in songs where the entire band has to get time
    	even though there are no drums:  Intros, but also, as an example,
    	it's typical for the drums to come in on the 2nd verse and so
    	where/how do you get your time throughout the first verse.
    
    	One thing I've found helpful here is to ALWAYS to the click intro
    	the same:  For a 4/4 song (which, sigh, covers most of what we do)
    	we ALWAYS count in with:
    
    		1  2  3  4  1  2  -  -
    
    That is its a two bar count-in with the last two beats silent.
    
    Doing it the same way every time avoids having the situations wher
    one member of the band comes after the first four.
    
    	(This weekend I worked with a drummer who gives 8th notes
    	 countins - took some getting used to, and obviously the
    	 first time he did that I thought maybe the band had decided
    	 to do a different song than what I thought we were doing ;-) )
    
    Anyway, I'd be interested to know if anyone has been in this kind of
    situation and if so, what you've done (what worked?  What didn't work?)
    
    If you haven't been in this situation but have some ideas which you
    think might work, let's here them too.
    
    	db
2335.51go optical?LNGBCH::STEWARTSounds dangerous: count me in!Wed Feb 20 1991 14:2014
       
       
       
       I've thought about this, too, but don't have any urgent need yet.
       How about some sort of visual indicator?  My setup has a
       separate metronome output (line-level) that could be used to
       trigger a relay or ...

       I think it would take a longer count-in to establish sync until you
       got used to it.
       
       
       
       
2335.52If you have a spare drum machine.....NWACES::PHILLIPSWed Feb 20 1991 14:5318
    While I have not performed live with MIDI, I would like too with the
    Gospel choir I work with and have also thought about this problem.
    
    I saw a band at the Bounty Lounge tackle this problem in the following
    way.  They had a drum machine slaved to the sequencer. The drummer
    had headphones that were connected to the drum machine. This way
    the drummer could use whaterever he wanted to provide the timing
    plus no extra sequencer track or audio routing was necessary. He
    gave the rest of band a two bar count in by tapping on his sticks,
    one time by nodding his head (ballad) and like a  orchestra conductor
     he waved his hands in time during a piece where there was a sequencer 
    break in the middle. 
    
    In my situation the person conducting the choir will have to wear the
    headphones and also the drummer. I find it difficult to keep a large
    group in time with sequenced music other than drums.
    
    Errol
2335.53slaving the sequencer to the bandRICKS::NORCROSSMitch Norcross, SEG/AFL/SystemsWed Feb 20 1991 15:2823
 Re: syncing band and sequencer...
 
 There are  devices which translate "beats" to MIDI clock info.  The input
 "beats" can be audio events or MIDI note events.  The MIDI clock info can
 drive your sequencer.
 
 I don't have one of these, so I can't say exactly how it might be used to
 solve your problem.  I read about the Aphex  Studio  Clock in an EM First
 Takes review.  I would certainly like to try one of these myself, not for
 performing, but for recording (same thing?).
 
 The Aphex device sounded  like  it  could  follow a range of audio input,
 including mixes - as long  as  there  was a sufficient "beat" (transient)
 that could be identified in the mix. I'll believe it when I hear it.
 
 As you can  imagine, the advantage is that the sequencer can follow your
 human beat instead of you following the sequencer's beat.
 
 As you can imagine,  the  disadvantage  is that it probably costs around
 $700.
 
 /Mitch
 
2335.54a few ideasTOOK::SUDAMALiving is easy with eyes closed...Wed Feb 20 1991 15:4082
>    The question is, "How does the band get time".  That is, how do you
>    sync up with the sequencer?
    
    I don't have this problem myself, but I've talked to people who do, and
    I've given it a little thought. Like you said, the common method of
    synchronization is to provide a click track to the drummer through
    headpohones, and let them define the rhythm for the rest of the group.
    Drummers I've talked to who've done this a lot hated it. They said a
    lot of their concentration went into keeping in synch with the click
    track and they couldn't really get into their playing.
    
>    o	I have to sequence the click.  This takes up a track in my
>        sequencer and I only have 8 (going to 24 soon but...)

    I don't understand that. Can't you merge MIDI channels into one track
    on your sequencer? The way I would do this would be to dedicate one of
    the 16 MIDI channels to the click track. If I was limited for tracks
    I'd merge it in with some other track.
    
>    o   You have to somehow isolate the click from the rest of the
>    	mix (separate outs for example) and somehow get from that
>    	line output to a headphone.

    My sequencer (MC-500) has two MIDI outputs, and any track can be
    directed to either output. You could achieve the same thing with a
    MIDI channel splitter. Then use the click track to drive a drum machine
    (or some cheap synth like and FB01).
    
    Another approach would be to use a synth like the D-110 that has
    multiple audio outputs, to which parts can be assigned.
    
    Finally, the MC-500 has a built-in audio synch pulse which also has an
    external output.
    
    These are some of the options available with my equipment. I don't know
    enough about your setup to advise on specifics.
    
>    o   You have to figure out what sorta of audio the drummer can hear
>    	above the band (beeps?  Rim shots?  Side-sticks? etc.)
    
    Like I said, all the drummers I talked to about this used headphones.
    I use a claves sound for the count-in clicks for my sequences, because
    it cuts very well.
    
>    o	There are points in songs where the entire band has to get time
>    	even though there are no drums:  Intros, but also, as an example,
>    	it's typical for the drums to come in on the 2nd verse and so
>    	where/how do you get your time throughout the first verse.
    
    I *do* have this problem, because sometimes I have solo guitar intros
    to my sequences. In other words, I might start something with just
    acoustic guitar and have the sequence join me later. What I do is
    program some non-intrusive sound that will blend with the guitar, like
    a bass drum, or maybe the bass line of the picking pattern (I do a nice
    intro to "Here Comes The Sun" unsing this method). The point is, pick
    something you can distinguish from the other sounds, but which won't be
    obvious to the audience. Synchronize your playing to that. I do this a
    lot, and it works quite well.
    
>    	One thing I've found helpful here is to ALWAYS to the click intro
>    	the same:  For a 4/4 song (which, sigh, covers most of what we do)
>    	we ALWAYS count in with:
>    
>    		1  2  3  4  1  2  -  -
>    
>    That is its a two bar count-in with the last two beats silent.
    
    Agreed. I start *all* of my sequences with claves playing:
    
    		1  -  3  -  1  2  3  4
    
    Lawrence Welk style. I may drop the last click if there is a drum
    lead-in.
    
>    Doing it the same way every time avoids having the situations wher
>    one member of the band comes after the first four.
    
    This problem I don't have.
    
    I'm *always* exactly in synch with myself. :-)
    
    	- Ram
2335.55how's your foot-hand coordination?STOHUB::TRIGG::EATONWed Feb 20 1991 16:2216
    
>    I *do* have this problem, because sometimes I have solo guitar intros
>    to my sequences. In other words, I might start something with just
>    acoustic guitar and have the sequence join me later. What I do is
>    program some non-intrusive sound that will blend with the guitar, like
>    a bass drum, or maybe the bass line of the picking pattern (I do a nice
>    intro to "Here Comes The Sun" unsing this method). The point is, pick
>    something you can distinguish from the other sounds, but which won't be
>    obvious to the audience. Synchronize your playing to that. I do this a
>    lot, and it works quite well.
 
	I do this a lot too - but I find it a lot more pleasing musically to
have the foot pedal connected to the MC and have it start at the point the other 
instruments come in - like at the lead in to the chorus or the second verse.

	Dan   
2335.56Nature of the BeastAQUA::ROSTIn search of the lost biscuit dropWed Feb 20 1991 16:366
>    I don't understand that. Can't you merge MIDI channels into one track
>    on your sequencer? 
    
    Dave's using Ensoniq gear which allows only one MIDI channel per track.
    
    							Brian
2335.57SALSA::MOELLERKarl has... left the building.Wed Feb 20 1991 18:416
    A dilemma.  No solution here.  Comment on the reply which suggested
    using a visual cue, like a flashing LED, rather than an audio click.
    I find it impossible to play to a flash.. have an electronic metronome
    that allows me to choose.  It just doesn't compute.
    
    karl
2335.58thanks - good stuffDREGS::BLICKSTEINI'll have 2 all-u-can-eat plattersWed Feb 20 1991 20:0571
    re: .52 (Errol)
    
    Errol, the idea of using a slaved drum machine is exactly what I
    proposed to the band yesterday.  I hope we can try it tonite.
    
    re: .53 (Mitch)
    
    Unfortunately those time machines are way over my budget.  I also
    have an (as yet) unjustified distrust of them.  Intuitively they
    would seem prone to pratfalls.
    
    
>>    o	I have to sequence the click.  This takes up a track in my
>>        sequencer and I only have 8 (going to 24 soon but...)

>    I don't understand that. Can't you merge MIDI channels into one track
>    on your sequencer? The way I would do this would be to dedicate one of
>    the 16 MIDI channels to the click track. If I was limited for tracks
>    I'd merge it in with some other track.
    
    On my sequencer you can't do that.  The demand for tracks is further
    complicated: I've done the sequences so that we COULD play w/o
    a drummer if needed - so I actually have to use THREE tracks:
    one for the click, one for the parts the drummer plays when he's
    there and one for the sequenced drum parts that the drummer doesn't
    play (latin perc, etc.)
    
>    Finally, the MC-500 has a built-in audio synch pulse which also has an
>    external output.
    
    But on the MC-500 it's a "beep" right.  It goes like: "Beep bip bip bip
    Beep bip bip bip".   I like my drummer too much to subject him to that.
    One thing I've found is that drummers can DEAL with clicking sounds
    (like a metronome), prefer drum sounds (for the click track), but
    can't deal with anything with a "tone".
    
    I've tried it too - it's OK for sequencing, not but for trying to
    get time from the click while also trying to fit yourself into the
    rest of the band.
    
    
>>    	One thing I've found helpful here is to ALWAYS to the click intro
>>    	the same:  For a 4/4 song (which, sigh, covers most of what we do)
>>    	we ALWAYS count in with:
>>    
>>    		1  2  3  4  1  2  -  -
>>    
>>    That is its a two bar count-in with the last two beats silent.
    
>    Agreed. I start *all* of my sequences with claves playing:
>    
>    		1  -  3  -  1  2  3  4
    
    Most bands I was in before did that, but I really like having that
    little gap before the song starts - it's definitely MUCH better for
    recording.
    
    In fact, I think I'd NOW prefer to shorten it to just:
    
    		1  2  3  4  -   -   -  -
    Lawrence Welk style. I may drop the last click if there is a drum
    lead-in.
    
>    Doing it the same way every time avoids having the situations wher
>    one member of the band comes after the first four.
    
    This problem I don't have.
    
    I'm *always* exactly in synch with myself. :-)
    
    	- Ram
2335.59KOBAL::DICKSONI watched it all on my radioThu Feb 21 1991 12:135
    Several of the high-end software sequencers have a "tap-tempo" feature
    built in.  You nominate some MIDI event as the "tap" and it will adjust
    tempo of the sequence playback to match.
    
    Much cheaper than the hardware "human clock" devices.
2335.60Customised Click-Tracks for happy drummers.EICMFG::BURKEJim Burke, @UFCTue Feb 26 1991 09:5519
2335.61WEFXEM::COTEThere wasn't even any Hollywood!Tue Feb 26 1991 11:074
    Why izzit many drummers can't/won't follow an external tempo
    generator? Everyone else in the band does it almost exclusively...
    
    Edd
2335.62Not Every Drummer Is Tony WilliamsIXION::ROSTRockette Morton's illegitimate sonTue Feb 26 1991 11:386
    I disagree.  As a bassist, you oughta know better.  Ever had the feeling
    when playing that the tempo was shifting?  Then there's that weird few
    bars where you try to get things back in synch...
    
    
    						Brian
2335.63MRCSSE::LEITZbutch leitzFri Mar 01 1991 14:1915
re: the last few entries, the custom click track idea is a good
one. Whenver I have to be subjected to working with a preset tempo
i can only do it (well, lets say) by having a pattern or other
music going on...or at the very least, defining the click note
to be something that maps to a sound that doesn't get lost.
For instance I often use a woodblock for the click. A conga pattern
in the background is better, (but synching it (in isolation from
what your playing) isn't easy if you're playing real time into
the unit providing the tempo!)

oh, edd, btw, i've had psyched up guitarists and bassists take
the tempo over the edge no matter how hard I tried to keep it back.
(I also admit to doing the same thing periodically... ) Then they
typically blame the drummer for not holding it together or "playing
with the group".
2335.64Surprize!CSC32::MOLLERFix it before it breaksFri Mar 01 1991 17:464
In general, playing with either a drum machine or a sequencer takes some
getting used to. A sequencer follows no one.

								Jens
2335.65Trials and tribulations..CITYFS::SMNot now, I'm eating my lunch!!! Sat Mar 02 1991 23:5416
    
    
        One of the biggest problems I had was finding a decent headphone
    amp and mixer to enable the keyboards and a HR16 (synced to the
    sequencer) to be played deafingly loud into our unsuspecting drummer
    ears. I ended up building a 2 into 1 mixer and stereo headphone amp
    into a rack case. 
    
        I generally setup the click as a cow bell which cuts well but I
    found that he (the drummer) felt alot more at home with the keyboards
    being in his headphones as well. It has taken a while for the band
    to get used to the rigid tempo of a sequence but it seems to be comming
    together well. The funny thing is we've ended up with only one sequnced
    song anyway.
    
    ... 
2335.66Hey Anatek!!! Check this out!DREGS::BLICKSTEINI'll have 2 all-u-can-eat plattersTue Mar 05 1991 16:4016
    In case anyone from Anatek (makers of those wonderful "Pocket" MIDI
    products) happens to be reading this file... ;-)
    
    A request:   "Pocket Click"
    
    Inputs: MIDI IN
    Outputs: Headphone port
    
    Switches:
    
    	o Click style: selects various kinds of clicks (beeps, side-stick,
    	    cowbell, Snare & Bass, etc.)
    
    	o Time signature: (perhaps not needed if it recognizes end of bars)
    
    You can send me 3 or 4 of them free for thinking of the idea.