Conference napalm::commusic_v1

The YS-series nomenclature suggests to me that this might not be a pro unit.
The (formerly) existing YS100 and YS200 are in a strange niche between consumer
gear and semi-pro.  I do wonder what Yamaha is up to.

	Eirikur

    Don't know squat about the naming (il)logic ... I do know that a 32x16
    unit with FM *and* sampled waveforms sounds pretty dang hot to me. 

-b

Sorry, but it sounds pretty darn dumb to me.  While I would like a small FM
box, FM just ain't the end-all.  If I wanted samples and FM I'd get a TX802
and a sampler and or proteus.  If I wanted a "workstation", I'd get a Korg T*
or the VFXsd or something.

Chad  who_just_can't_get_excited

    Fine - get what you want ... I've been looking for something like this
    for the last 2+ years. 

-b

    From what I heard this new product will incorperate 3 "sound"
    (am I using the right word here) technologies.  Suppose to hit
    the market in April-May time frame.  I also heard that Yamaha
    would release them in limited amounts. (Sound familiar!)
    $3000.00 retail. I can hear the salesman already.....
    	"$2995.00 is the best I can do."  "Can't get them in fast enough."
    Ya right.
    Rick L.
    

    I wonder if this is related to Y's new line of home keyboards, the
    X-3500 and X-4500, which use what Y. calls a "NEW" way to create
    sounds, they call it DASS; the brochure shows sampled attack transients
    layered with FM sounds.  Sounds kinda like LA synthesis (but with
    FM) to me ... ah, it's coming to me, DASS was something like "Dual
    Architecture Synthesis System" ... the unit had 3 technologies:
    Samples, FM, and PCM drums.  .   .
    
    	-Jim

This might be an interesting reversal of the trickle-down theory of synth
architectures.  Usually the manufacturer pilots an architecture with a high-end
unit.  Yamaha may be experimenting with moving up from the low end.  Certainly
there is a bigger revenue base for low-end pilots than high-end pilots, though
manufacturers without a high-end presence haven't done well at this sort of
trickle-up.  Witness Casio.  They've got some pretty nice stuff, but not
exceptional, and not really prevelant in the pro community.

	Eirikur

    Nikons use the "trickle up" approach in their cameras.  They try
    out various new features in their low end "consumer" models and
    then integrate them into their high end "pro" models.
    
    Roland uses neither approach.  They do it differently every time.
    This may work if you own only one Roland product, but if you own
    a bunch, remembering the "little" differences can make life, uhm,
    "interesting".
    
    len.
    

    
    According to an EM blurb, the SY77 is a 6-op FM machine coupled with an
    AWM (Yamaha's sampling system) wavetable.  The samples can be used as
    alternate waveforms to the sine waves....i.e modulate the trumpet
    waveform with the piano waveform, etc.
    
    Also, *four* on-board effects processors (one-upping the M1)....
    
    In other words, not a real radical departure, just stuffing more
    goodies in to the box at an elevated price.
    
    BTW, it's been a few years since L/A hit and drove everybody
    sample-crazy, when is a *new* synth architecture going to arrive?
    
    						Brian

    Well, we've seen just about everything.  I thing the "next big thing"
    can only be a return to modular synthesis with programmable routing
    between modules, so you can change your synth's architecture on
    a patch by patch basis.  More or less a complete generalization
    of Oberheim's approach.
    
    len.
      

    
    Re: .10
    
    That's where Peavey is pointing with their synth architecture.  Build a
    high speed DSP engine, give it lots of memory and let a downloadable
    O.S. define the architecture.  Except at $2K, I doubt Peavey is all the
    way there yet.  
    
    Basically, bring the techniques used on computer systems like this
    C-sound stuff into the performance arena.
    
    							Brian

    
    From a look at the two page "look" at the SY77 in Music Technology,
    some interesting stuff on the polyphony:
    
    You get 16 voices of FM and 16 of AWM.  So it's really only 32 voices
    if you have some patches set up using all FM *and* some using all AWM.  
    If you do *just* FM or *just* AWM, you get 16 voices only.  Then, when
    you start layering....like the Roland D and U series, polyphony is not
    cut and dried at all.  But expect Yamaha ads to tout "32 voices".
    
    On the FM stuff, like the TX-81Z, non-sine waves are supported,
    apparently 16 types available.
    
    							Brian

    
    Saw in a reply on USENET that the SY55, the lower-priced SY board
    (about $1300 instead of $2500) has *only* the AWM samples and no FM. 
    Sounds pretty weird.
    
    Anyone seen either board in a store yet and taken it for a spin?
    
    							Brian

RE < Note 2151.13 by AQUA::ROST "Bikini Girls With Machine Guns" >

I think you may be right, Brian.  I saw this blurb in a local sale brochure and 
didn't understand it at first.  Now, in light of what you said, it makes more 
sense.

"Yamaha SY55 Synthesizer

"Keyboards that play back samples are nothing new.  One that adds extensive 
sound editing capability, broad musical expression and a versatile built-in
sequencer to top-quality samples, however, qualifies as a breakthrough.  The
breakthrough is the Yamaha SY55 Music Synthesizer.  It features a voice 
architecture that allows extensive sample layering and programmable dynamic
timbre variation.  With the SY55, individual sampled "waves" are building
blocks that you arrange and process with a sophisticated dynamic filter system
to create sound that's a perfect match for your music.  Add to this a 
sophisticated 8-track sequencer, and you have a complete music production 
workstation as well as an outstandng performance tool.  The SY55 is one digital
synthesizer that puts samples in their proper place."

	I almost get the impression that this unit uses samples in an FM 
synthesis type architecture (i.e., use a sample to modulate another sample).

	Dan

>>> Yamaha SY55 Synthesizer
    
    I'm pretty sure I saw one on display at The Music Workshop in Salem,
    NH last weekend.  I didn't try it out, however.
    
    - John -

    
    From USENET, a hands-on report from an actual owner of an SY77.
    I've plugged in a few editorial comments.  Hit NEXT UNSEEN if you hate
    the Y-word  8^)  8^)
    
    						Brian
    
    
From: scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker)
Subject: Yamaha SY77
Date: 14 Mar 90 22:57:46 GMT
 
(a little long :-)
 
Well, I finally got my SY77 and had a chance to play around with
it.  For those of you DX users who are wondering what's the scoop
with the SY77 here is a mini-review of the instrument:
 
Voice architecture:
   Up to 16 FM sounds and 16 digital samples may be played
   simultaneously.  A "voice" may consist 1, 2, or 4 "elements"
   offering several combinations of FM and sampled sounds.
   Each element in a voice can be zoned by both note range and
   velocity range.  Each element has a wide selection of stereo
   panning capabilities.
 
FM unit:
   It uses 6 operators like the DX7.  However, some interesting
   enhancements have been added.  There are 48 algorithms instead
   of 32.  Unlike the DX7, an algorithm is extremely flexible.
   The programmer may specify up to three feedback loops from
   any point to any point in the algorithm.  In fact, a
   feedback loop consists of source and any number of destinations
   so there are really more than 3 feedback loops available.
   
   Each operator in an algorithm will accept up to 2 modulators
   which can be any of the following:
 
      a) another operator (determined by the algorithm or feedback)
      b) a digital sample
      c) noise
 
   Also, each operator may have any of 16 different waveshapes.  This
   let's you do things with 1 or 2 ops that used to take 3 or more ops.
   There are 2 LFO's instead of 1.  Pitch sensitivity is independant
   for each operator (the DX7 had global pitch sensitivity).
 
   Envelope generators have more segments including a delay segment,
   2 release segments, and a programmable loop point.  Key velocity
   can modify the attack time.  The pitch EG may be disabled for
   individual operators.
 
   Several parameters have negative ranges where the DX7 only had
   positive ranges allowing for cross-fade effects.
 
Sample playback unit:
 
   At first glance, the ROM samples did not impress me very much.  They
   were good but not great.  They were clean but not "crisp".  However,
   once I reminded myself that the SY77 is not intended to be a sample 
   player I appreciated the samples a lot more.  These samples are intended 
   to be combined with FM sounds - not merely layered on top of them but 
   fully integrated into FM synthesis process.
 
   There are the usual multi-sampled instruments such as piano, strings, 
   horns, choir, etc.  Additionally, there is a rather interesting palette
   of strange samples that are not musically interesting by themselves but 
   do wonders when combined with the FM sounds.  (For you LA fans there
   are the obligatory "airy" sounds).  There is the usual compliment of
   drum sounds.
 
Filters:
 
   Each of the 4 elements in a voice has its own pair of filters.
   (giving a total of 8 filters in a single voice).
 
   The filters have a 12db/oct slope and may be set for lowpass or
   highpass.  The pair of filters can be combined as a bandpass
   (low+high) or as a 24db/oct lowpass.  Filter resonance
   may also be set all the way to self oscillation.  An obscure feature
   (buried in the manual) allows one element of a voice to "borrow" the 
   filters from another element giving up to 4 filters on a single element.
   (48db/oct anyone?)
    
    ***********Now this sounds cool, a lot more flexible than any other
    digital synths that are out there right now.
    ***********
 
   Now...I grew up with MOOG filters so I was going to be a tough
   critic here.  I was surprised by how good these filters sounded.
   They're not quite up to the MOOG filters but they are as good,
   if not better, than some other analog filters I've heard.
   They are clearly more than just a marketing gimmick.  The
   resonance adds that certain quality I've always enjoyed from
   a good analog filter.  Unfortunately, none of the factory sounds
   on the SY77 really show what the filters can do.  Naturally,
   there's a ton of controller routings to play with the filters
   including independent EG's for each filter pair.
 
Signal processing:
 
   Well, the SY77 instantly made me a believer in on-board effects.
   Each voice has its own signal processing parameters.  The
   signal path can go through 2 "modulation" units and 2 "reverb"
   units.  These units can be combined in various configurations.
   There are a handful of modulation options such as chorus and flange
   (all stereo).  There are dozens of reverb options including distortion
   (also in stereo).
 
   I'm use to using SPX-90's and the SY77 signal processing did not
   strike me as any better or worse than an SPX-90 (although perhaps
   quieter since the A/D and D/A stages are missing).
 
User interface:
 
   Considering how complex this instrument is, the user interface is
   not bad at all.  A large, backlit, LCD can show entire menus,
   EG and scaling curves.  There are usually several different ways
   to input data at any given time so you can reach for whatever
   input device that feels the most comfortable.  However, it's still a
   bit overwhelming and discourages casual experimentation.   A full screen
   editor would probably be a good investment.
 
Sequencer:
 
   16 tracks, 1 song, 16000 notes.   No comment.  I don't use it.
    
 *******Bummer! Only one song, they obviously didn't plan on live use. 
    Plus 16K notes is kinda skimpy in this price range.
    *********
    
MIDI:
 
   The MIDI implementation is certainly flexible but nothing like
   a Kurzweil PX1000.  The SY77 can be put into "Multi" mode.
   This will provide 16-channel multi-timbral tone generation
   with dynamic voice allocation.  However, there is a major
   disappointment here.  It appears that there is only one real
   signal processor in the instrument.  In multi mode, the same
   signal processing is used for all voices on all channels (overiding
   the signal processing parameters for each individual voice).
   So, if you have a killer guitar sound that relies heavily
   on the signal processing, it will lose something in multi mode.
 
    ************What??? I can't believe this!!! With all the
    processor-laden multi-timbral boxes on the market, how could they blow
    this????  Major bummer, dudes.  What good is having four processors if
    you can only use 'em all at the same time????  Ugh....
    ************
    
Storage:
 
   There are 128 preset voices + 64 internal user voices + 64 ram
   card voices.  There is also a slot for additional wave data cards.
   A 720k floppy serves the usual purposes (MS-DOS format).  One strange
   quirk - voices that consist of 4 elements can only be stored in
   certain memory banks because they take up more room than voices
   with 1 or 2 elements.  (That is the sort of design trade-off that
   a user shouldn't have to worry about IMHO).
 
Conclusions:
 
    The SY77 has a major hurdle to overcome.  It is an enormously
    powerful and complex instrument being sold in a market where
    the "quick fix" is king.  I must also say that the SY77 is not
    instantly endearing.  This is mainly because the factory sounds
    on the instrument are generally mediocre - rehashes of earlier DX7 
    sounds with a some sample playback added.  However, some of the
    presets are truly astounding giving us a hint of what it could do 
    in the right hands.  I can't say if the SY77 will change the minds 
    of die-hard FM haters but it puts forward a good show.  I suspect 
    that some of the third-party patch libraries that may be 
    forthcoming will make the SY77 a "must have" for many musicians.
 
-- 
Scott Amspoker
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM
(505) 345-5232
unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott

    Any idea whether the sequencer uses macros like the QX5?  That'd make
    the 16K note limit go pretty far.
    
    Steve

    
    Re: .17
    
    Sure but only one song in memory makes it useless as a live sequencer,
    which may be a tail wagging the dog situation:  Noone uses workstation
    sequencers live because of the limitations, noone builds better
    workstation sequencers because noone uses them live, etc.  
    
    						Brian

RE < Note 2151.16 by AQUA::ROST "Bikini Girls With Machine Guns" >

>   In multi mode, the same
>   signal processing is used for all voices on all channels (overiding
>   the signal processing parameters for each individual voice).

	This is the same thing they did in the consumer/pro hybrid, the YS200.
It makes you wonder who they were making this instrument for - it sort of
rides the fence...  It has a sequencer with only one song, so that would
assume home/studio use.  It has multi-timbral mode, but only has one signal
processor.  The single signal (say that three times fast) processor would assume
live use.  I think Yamaha made some major flops here in trying to cut corners.
It'll be too expensive for the home studio enthusiast (who's looking for a 
better sounding D110), but it lacks some significant features to make it for
the working musician.

	What's happening with Yamaha these days?  Don't they listen to the 
musician?  In my opinion, the two best things they ever put out was the DX7 and
the TX81Z.  Why can't they build on the success of these?  Instead, they drop
the TX81Z and put out a synth with an identity crisis.

	Dan

    For what it's worth, I played one of these Tuesday night for about 10
    minutes (while I was waiting on a pizza to bake a few blocks down the
    street).  Being a travelling consultant has only a few good points -
    this was one of them. 

    In short, I wasn't too impressed with the thing - although the on-baord
    effects and what not were nice.  The filter sweeps were okay, too ...
    but as with everything I play, I try to compare it to what I already
    have.  The Proteus blows the thing away, hands down, even without
    onboard FX.  While the filters were interesting and added some timbral
    character (you listening, Emu?), I don't think they made that much
    difference.  For a $3k list price, they could have done a lot better. 

    And I *still* have yet to find a machine that can sound like my 10-year
    old Oberheim. 

-b

    Here's an excerpt from a long posting on the SY-77 from USENET,
    concerning sequencer limitations.
    
From: mayer@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Niels Mayer)
Subject: Re: Yamaha SY77
Date: 16 Mar 90 00:42:27 GMT
 
I found a "showstopper" bug in the SY-77 I bought originally.... it had, I
believe, version 1.1 ROMs... After I discovered it, I brought it back to
the store and got it exchanged for a new one. I very much doubt that a
company like Korg or Ensoniq would do that -- "we'll have it back from
repairs in a month..."
 
(by the way, to find out the rom number, reboot your synth, or go through a
bunch of tests, hit buttons "voice" "bank d" "8".  You have to do these in
sequence, kinda like ctrl-alt-delete on an IBM-PC.)
 
 
>Sequencer:
>
>   16 tracks, 1 song, 16000 notes.   No comment.  I don't use it.
 
It's pretty cool. Doesn't have enough memory. I always run out of memory
after a particularly inspired but lengthy sitar raga and lose the whole
track (a bug, in my opinion). Maybe I need to lay off the aftertouch and
pitchbending...
 
And I wanted a "teental" setting for the click track of the sequencer!
 
One of these days, my IBM-PC clone software and MIDI interface card will
arrive. Even then, I think the sequencer will make a nice scratchpad.
Also, I can load my sequences to an SY-77 disk so I don't have to haul my
highly unportable computer to gigs and/or jam sessions.
 
Actually, the sequencer has the right kinds of functionality I need, and I
figured most of it out without having to look at the manual. I would prefer
a bigger screen that could display 16 tracks simultaneously, and cut/paste
would be nice, but...  I have found it's operation to be hell of alot more
    
    ****** No cut and paste????  Huh???*******
    
straightforward than OpCode's "vision" which has got to be the most
confusing sequencers I've ever been forced to work with....  ("vision --
the sequencer that takes the direct-manipulation iconic interface to
hieroglyphic extremes!")
 
>   However, there is a major
>   disappointment here.  It appears that there is only one real
>   signal processor in the instrument.  In multi mode, the same
>   signal processing is used for all voices on all channels (overiding
>   the signal processing parameters for each individual voice).
 
I think I know of a solutuion to th above problem, but haven't had the time
lately to put it in effect. The sy-77 has 2 independent effects channels
(both in stereo) so you have to separate your sounds into two channels. I
heap all the effects into one channel (for my sitar lead) and I use the
other channel with simple reverb and such for drums and other instruments.
 
I'm still experimenting with this... for example I need to check into
whether the effects must be stereo or not. If not, then I could get 4
different effects channels.
 
But yes, I was damn annoyed at this limitation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	    Niels Mayer -- hplabs!mayer -- mayer@hplabs.hp.com
		  Human-Computer Interaction Department
		       Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
			      Palo Alto, CA.
				   *

re .-1
>the store and got it exchanged for a new one. I very much doubt that a
>company like Korg or Ensoniq would do that -- "we'll have it back from
>repairs in a month..."

Exchanging a synth for a new one has more to do with the
store you are dealing with than the company that made the synth.
I purchased an Ensoniq VFXsd.  There were some problems
with the disk drive.  They replaced the synth.

Ensoniq has also been very quick to fix reported bugs.
When a new operating system for the sequencer and the
synth comes out, they send the chips and disk to 
the local music dealer.  

With some of the Japanese manufactures, you're
lucky to even here about an upgrade in an operating
system.  (At least that has been my experience).

Sorry for the side tracking the note.
And now back to the SY-77....

    Hi folks !
    
    Despite the scepticism expressed in earlier replies, I bought a (used)
    TG77 (for an attractive price). And guess what..... I like it. I must
    admit that it's a logical step for ME, as I have a TG55 (almost
    equicalent to the AWM part of the 77) where I run out of voices and I
    have a 4-op FM SGU. So I can really build up on the knowledge of the
    architecture (which is complex !!! especially for AFM part). And I can
    share the memory cards (RAM and wave ROMS !, but not the voice cards of
    course).
    
    Now anyone else, who has a 77, where we can exchange sounds ? I know
    there are tons of DX7 sounds on MIDILIB, but they are fairly cheap now
    offered in the ads (9000 converted DX7 sounds for 69,-DM, that's ~40$)
    and I expect more from combined AWM/AFM sounds and the so called RCM
    sounds, where the AWM is used as on operator for the AFM (some
    excellent examples in PD sounds I got for it).
    
    I also bought an editor/librarian for it, Steinberg Synthworks, which I
    will review in another note, as it may be of general interest, since
    there are versions for various synths that share a lot of
    commonalities.
    
    	Richard