Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Nah....
    
    My DX7 battery died, and I didn't replace it for about 4 months.
    Yes, it was a pain in the butt reloading the machine everytime I
    turned it on, but I was pretty happy to find out that the battery
    was a simple watch battery. I don't think they will go obsolete,
    because it's such a simple, generic part.......I hope.    :^)
    

    
    
    Did you replace it yourself or was it a "shopjob" ?
    
                                        Paul.
    					

    
    I have both types of gear, ones that use normal batteries (AA cells in
    my case) that need to be changed every year or two, and units with
    "non-user-replacable" batteries, likely lithiums, I haven't opened them
    up to see.
    
    The biggest hassle with lithiums is not even that you have to open up
    the box and maybe even use a soldering iron to replace it (after all,
    this is how you replace fuses on many devices), it's that you can't get
    them at the local drugstore, you need to go to an electronic supply
    house. 
    
    The other hassle is that there is no indication as to when the battery
    might be going until the day you turn on the unit and find the memory
    wiped.  Of course, this is the day that you're headlining at the
    Meadowlands  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    One bit of useful research would be to check the voltage and current
    capacity of the lithium battery, it might be possible, via hardware
    hack, to replace with regular dry cells which at least would be easier
    to obtain.
    
    >>>Flame on:  
    
    Since when is changing a battery once a year so much of a hassle that
    it's better to have to send your equipment *into the shop* every five
    years so some tech can replace it for $50??
    
    >>>Flame Off!
    

    Hmmmm.... Do I detect a possible trend starting?
    
    This is the second time this week someone has expressed some concern 
    over getting support for their 'ancient' machine.
    
    With the technology leaping forward by orders of magnitude every n
    months, SOTA becomes yesterday's news in a flash. 
    
    I was talking with Brian Rost yesterday about my MKS problem. Now,
    admittedly, I've had no indication that the machine is unfixable,
    but in all honesty, I'm not comfortable with the prospects that Union
    may have to get Roland involved. Yamaha's reputation doesn't do much
    to instill confidence either. Frankly, the only companies represented
    in my studio I have any support confidence in are Ensoniq and ALESIS!!
    
    If I had a 10 year old car (or even 15 or 20) I'd not be overly
    concerned with obtaining parts or getting someone to repair it; can
    I expect the same level of support from Yamaha and Roland?
    
    Despite the crash in the 'book value' of my gear, I still think of
    my DX-21 as an $800 unit and the Mirage as close to $2K. The JX3-P
    was close to $1400 new, how much less could the MKS-30 be?
    
    Should we think of this stuff as disposable? Or, should we expect/
    demand that the equipment be supported for X years? Or, am I just
    all gassed up over nothing due to "analog withdrawal"?
    
    Comments?
    
    Edd

    
    Re: .3
    
    An addendum:  When lithium batteries first started being used in camera
    gear a few years ago, they were not user-replacable.  This caused such
    a stink that now all lithium-powered cameras I've seen recently have
    user repacable lithium cells, some even allow replacement with dry
    cells for emergency situations.  Why MI gear can't be the same way, I
    don't know.  

    Any of the machines I've been inside of (DX7, OB-Xa, MKS70, 1000PX) all
    use solder-in type batteries.  The only machine that I'm familar with
    that has 'exterior' batteries is the Roland TR707. 

    I still have my original battery in the OBXa (bought it in 1981)
    with no nits or brain damage.  I have everything back up to tape,
    though ... just in case .....

    If you're really worried about supporting old gear, call your mfgr
    representative and have 'em send you a service manual.  That way, any
    good tech can fix things in the future, should formal support channels
    go south. 

-b

    "Have 'em send you" means "pay around $50 for".

    I replaced the battery in my DX7 at the same time I added the e! board
    to it.  The DX has a built in volt meter which gives you a clue that
    you are about to go belly up, so you've got some warning.  The total
    job took about 20 minutes, including initializing the E! board.  The
    battery came from a local music store, cost under 10 bux, good for
    another 5 years.  Just make sure that you've got all your patches
    backed up, or you will be an unhappy camper.  Wasn't hard to do at all,
    and it eliminated the need for a panic crash at the Meadowlands for
    me!  :-)
    
     - Terry

    
    Re: .8
    
    Some units that have lithium backups that I've seen *also* don't allow
    saving of data either to a cart/tape or by sysex.  With regular dry
    cells, manuals usually tell you to change batteries while the power is
    on, or at least change the battery within two or three minutes.  Try to
    unsolder and resolder a battery in two minutes.  Better yet, try
    soldering on a powered-up circuit board....
    
    							Brian

    The lithium battery in my MSQ-700 went belly up a few years ago.
    It was Maxell AA sized lithium cell, but with pigtail leads soldered
    into the *bottom* side of a circuit board.  So replacing the battery
    required removing the board and desoldering the battery, then finding
    someone who had one.  It took six months to find a replacement battery.
    In the meantime I got my MC-500.  Using the MSQ-700 with no battery
    was no big deal, it just wouldn't remember sequences across power
    up/down cycles, and had to be reloaded from tape, a fairly normal
    operation anyway.
    
    But I'm not encouraged about the same problem with my Super Jupiters,
    or JX-10, or all those M64-C cartridges I have.  At least the new
    RAM cards have an easily accesible standard sized battery.
    
    len.
    

    How to change batteries in less than N seconds:
    
    Use a pair of small jumper clips (street name: "roach clips") to
    electrically connect the new battery into the circuit before
    disconnecting the old battery.  Then, keeping the jumper clips 
    installed, unsolder the old battery (or just clip the leads...)
    and solder the new one in.
    
    No problem...
    
    	-Bill

    
    
    re -2
    
    It never occurred to me that exchangable RAMS had batteries as well
    I thought they just worked like an EPROM or something. Showing me
    technical prowess here !
    
    Where's the battery in one of the Credit Card style RAMS that you
    get for the new things like D50's/R8's etc? Or do you just throw
    these away when they die.
    
    				Paul.

    
    Re: .12
    
    The credit card RAMs I've seen use small watch batteries.  The only
    ones I've closely examined (for the Kawai K1) have instructions to only
    replace the battery while the card is plugged into the machine (thereby
    powered by the machine's supply).  Of course, you have no idea
    when the battery might die.
    
    For those of us who are not yet disk-based, I really dislike how
    manufacturers have given up on tape interfaces.  Archiving to a
    volatile medium doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.
    
    Ensoniq fans will be glad to know that the so-called "RAM" cartridges
    for the ESQ/SQ-80 synths are really EEPROM and need no batteries to
    hold their data.  Why noone else ever thought of this is beyond me.
    
    							Brian

RE: .13 (EEPROM vs. battery-backed RAM)

    Probably due to speed.  It takes almost 2 minutes to write a full bank
    in an EEPROM on an ESQ1.  Of course, when you're doing cartridge
    loading, you're usually not in a time crunch anyway. 

RE: "send $50 for service manual"

    Not so.  I've had 2 different manufacturers send me service manuals for
    free - and *they* even offered to do it.  Am I just lucky?

-b

Roland service manuals are $15.00 and take 1-10 months to deliver.

dbii

    Well the one for my Fostex deck cost $49, and that was the "dealer
    price" according to the guy in the Fostex parts department.  Arrived
    in about a week, in a cardboard box with plastic packing bubbles.
    It couldn't be over 45 pages, counting the fold-out schematics and
    PC-board pictures.

    ???  I got one from Roland (MKS70) in less than a week, at no charge.

    Face it, Dave - they don't like people who play the blues ...

-b