Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    My guess is that these are based on the 'SMART' system concept.
    Renkus Heinz has been marketing one of these for years. A processor
    is inserted in the loop, which constantly monitors the program
    material, and controls the amp output, and even crossover points.
    I can't remember all the details, but it works (I've heard Meyer's
    version and it sounds just fine).  Obviously the point is to eek
    out the most performance from smaller PA bins, so these new units
    are most likely scaled-down versions of that concept!
    
    I'd like to hear them!
    
    Pat

RE < Note 2096.1 by NYJMIS::PFREY >

	Thanks for the info.  I was just thumbing through some Peavey rags that
I picked up some time back and found what may be the one my friend had seen.
The speaker cab is called the 112PS.  It houses a 12" woofer and PV's CH3 horn 
with 22A driver (relatively standard PV equipment).  It is biampable, or runs
with a passive crossover set at 1200 hz.

	When this cab is combined with their rackmounted PCS (Processor 
Controlled System), it seems to fit the description you mentioned.

	How large a hall would you say these systems can handle?  Are they still
meant for small halls, but just made to provide a 'bigger' sound?

	Dan

    
    Box or no box, a nearfield system is a nearfield system. A 12" front
    loaded driver with a small horn won't fill Carnegie Hall with crunching
    db's. You have to fit the speakers to the application.
    
    Bose was a pioneer, so was Renkus-Heinz and Meyer, in processsed
    systems. Nowadays just about every pro speaker maker has at least one
    line. EAW has the KF series, EV the big MT-4, to name a couple. No
    question about it, it's the wave of the future in small nearfield
    systems all the way up to large concert arrays. Smaller, lighter,
    more portable, and processed, so there's less to futz with during
    setup and teardown. No crossovers, no system compression, very minimal
    eq, if any at all.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    
    Musician magazine recently raved about the Dawn systems.  There
    are three the one for $569 is the smallest.  These use a single
    subwoofer plus a pair of "sattelite" drivers with mid and tweet
    only.  They are intended for applications in small rooms (like lounges)
    not for peel-the-paint concert situations.  Peavey used to (still
    does?) make a system like that called the Tri-Flex.
    
    BTW, the new Peavey HDH series which you mentioned in .0 has a couple
    of speaker cabs avaialble including some big bins which are
    refrigerator sized.  Apparently they are all full range systems
    and you simply add more when you need more coverage.  They have
    also put HDH technology into a new 450 watt bass combo amp which
    has not hit the stores yet.
    
    The 112PS is a low end speaker and *definitely* not what your friend
    had seen.

RE < Note 2096.4 by AQUA::ROST "My mind is on vacation" >

	There are two boxes, the PCS and the HDH.  Looking over the descriptions
again, I see you are corrct in referring to the HDH as the 'smart' system.  And
there is a small version of it (they have basically three ways to go - the 
refrigerator-sized one (HDH-1), a split-out one where the low-frequency drivers 
are in one cab and the mid/high's are in another (HDH-3 and HDH-4) and the small
one (HDH-2) - they even have a slant monitor version (HDH-M)).  It has a 15"
Black Widow, a CH5 horn with what they call a 'manifold component/four 22A
drivers'(?).  I don't know if this is the one my friend saw...  The dimmensions
listed make it bigger than the SP2 and SP3 - and my friend had noted how small 
they were (he uses SP3's).

	The PCS box seems to be a somewhat simliar thing to the HDH, although
it's not lauded as a 'smart' system the way the other one is.  It says that it
is optimized for the new SP4 cab (another BIG unit - it looks like they took an
SP2 and added a second 15 front-loaded woofer).  The text under the 112PS cab
also refers to the use of the PCS...

	Dan

    And for you DIY-ers, Electronic Musician had an article on how to build
    your own "dispersed speaker" sound system for a PA.  Basically the
    article described how to design and build a bunch of strategically
    placed small speakers (esp monitors) so that club performances could
    sound "good" from all areas of a venue, without pinning someone's ears
    back up front.
    
    If I remember correctly, there wasn't anything to do with the
    "surround-sound" electro-doohickeys, just a lot of speakers all over
    the place...
    
    If someone *must* know the date of the issue, I'll go down to my
    dungeon and see if I can find it....;^)
    /doug
    

I would be interested in the "dispersed system" article.  

I always thought it would be a great effect if you could make your 
"apparent source" jump around at will..

Thanks,
			-Jeff

    < Note 2096.7 by GIBSON::DICKENS "What are you pretending not to know ?" >
>I always thought it would be a great effect if you could make your 
>"apparent source" jump around at will..

    Jeff, read the reply again.  The EM article (I remember it, too)
    did NOT have any active electronics other than bi-amping, nor did
    it involve even stereo sound.. it was a whole bunch of midrange
    speakers, plus a couple of bass bins, that could be dispersed around
    a performance space.  NOT a multi-channel system.
    
    karl

I read, I understood.  

But my imagination did not stop there...

    Actually, the article lauded the ability of the system to offer a
    balanced sound regardless of listener position...
    
    Edd

        
>    The 112PS is a low end speaker and *definitely* not what your friend
>    had seen.

    Oops, I'm sorry, I was confusing the 112PS with the 112PT.  The
    PS does indeed use a processor (series 23, also usable with the
    much larger SP4 cabs).  List is $330 per cab plus $400
    for the processor.

    The HDH processor is also $400.  The cabs start at about $800 each
    and go up to close to $2000 each.  The HDH processor has a crossover,
    compressors and "excursion control" built in (I guess this prevents
    excess signal getting to your woofers).  They have a number of controls
    including a loudness contour type adjustment.

    Any way you look at it, these are not low-budget speaker solutions.
    
    								Brian

Ok... Just got back from the dungeon.   I never throw *anything* away!
The article is a two-parter:

"A Wide Dispersion Sound System," by Mike Sokol

	First installment:  July 1987, p 28
	Second installment: October 1987 issue, p 68

If interested, send VAXmail to me and I'll get you a copy of the article. 

/doug

    
    I haven't read the article, but does he mention anything about delays?
    Unless we're talking about a real small room, there's gonna be problems
    in that area. 
    
    CdH
    

    Re: delays...
    
    Would you? A 100' room would introduce a 2 u-sec delay relative to the 
    artist if the artist and the speakers were in the same plane. Speakers
    at the opposite end would cut that in half...
    
    A 100' room is big. Most folks have more than 1 or 2 u-sec delays FX'd
    into their signal chain....
    
    I agree the phenom is real, but would it really be problem???
    
    Edd

    re .14 - I don't follow your arithmetic, Edd.  The way I figure
    it, a 100' room with the speakers at the corners and the artist
    between them puts the speakers 50 feet from the artist.  The speed
    of sound in air (not to be confused with the dense haze usually
    found in performing venues, but what the hey, it's a usable first
    order approximation) is 1000 ft/sec, or 1 msec/ft (that's millisecond,
    or thousandth of a second).  So the delay is 50 msec, quite a bit
    more than the 2 usec (that's microsecond, or millionth of a second)
    that you cite.  Now, a 50 msec delay is quite substantial, as the
    "feel fanatics" have demonstrated (and I agree with them) that 5 msec
    is detectable, and 50 msec is enough to significantly affect the
    apparent timing of a performance.  (In MC-500 terms, 50 msec is
    roughly 10 cpt at a tempo of 120 bpm.)
    
    len.
    

    
    The ear is extremely sensitive to phase and delay problems. A 100 foot
    room is large, true, but I'd bet that you will have delay problems if the 
    speakers at the rear of the hall are not delayed. The resultant echoing 
    will smear the heck out of the sound.Distributed systems have their own
    set of problems vs. point source.
    
    About your electronic delay argument, that is true, but all delay
    starts at the ONE point source, for whatever delay time. In this
    distributed system, the time delay is different at EVERY point in
    the system. That is where the problem lies. It can be fixed very simply
    by an electronic delay at each point in the system. Many companies make 
    delays for just that purpose.
    
    CdH
    
    

    Yep, I've been caught not checking my math....
    
    Sound travels at approximately 1000' per sec. (Yeah, I know, but 1000
    is such a nice round number...).
    
    BTW - For testing purposes, is the speed of sound measured in a vacuum?
    
    Edd

  Hey wiseguy!!!!There is NO SOUND in a vacuum!!!!Sound is molecular
    movement-so without molecules there would be no way to transfer
    any energy
    -Bill
    

how about sea level, 72 degrees F ..